Can we improve the story telling in porn games?

[Segnbora]

Offcuts is brilliant and it has a shit-ton of text.

Other games aren't because they have a shit-ton of text.

It's really all about the specifics. If you need tons of text, then make it worth it. If you don't, then edit (or hire an editor) until it's crisp and functional.

As with every single game choice — and I feel there are now several dozen threads in this forum saying essentially the same thing — make me (the player) not only want it, but need it, and I'll take whatever you give me. On the other hand, if you give me tinned sardines and expect me to endure narrative bouillabaisse, I'm gonna object. In other words, give me reasons and give me justifications and give me authenticity.

 

[polywog]

That's something that sometimes devs forget... that women generally wanna bang even more than males. They're just more selective.

I posted something to this affect 2 years ago, and it led to a nasty response from some dickhead, but you are right.

Based on my experience... women want sex just as much as me and by that I mean 10 times a week. Not stereotyping, it fluctuates from person to person, some people may not want sex at all. Obviously they aren't my type if they don't and I wouldn't expect to change them. Not everyone are sexually compatible... next. Find your match.

In society (different living in the wild) people adapt habits or learn to behave a certain way. They don't always, some even rebel against it. Ladylike, Gentlemanly, etc.
But one thing that is put out there is "weaponized sex" where women use sex. They withhold sex, or give sex as a reward to modify behavior. Putting a price on sex is the oldest profession, using sex for gain is no different.
I am of the opinion that sex is and should be mutually enjoyable by both and not something paid for. That is, if both parties are compatible... some people might need to offer some compensation.

In games sex is almost always treated as a reward, and often it's controlled by the developer... withholding it.
In the case of grind games, the player feels that they have struggled to get the sex in the game... the debt is therefore paid already, and there is no need to give the pimp anything on patreon.

Attempting to use sex as a weapon in relationships is always a bad idea. The drawbacks are plentiful; it drives your partner away, creates fights, causes tension, takes the fun out of a relationship and you literally stop being attentive to each other’s needs.

If people are expected to pay for the game, they've already paid for the sex haven't they? So give it to them already, don't make sex a reward in the game.

 

[Xalenda]

#1: The one phrase I’ve yet to see within this discussion is “Write what you know.”

You may not have ever had sex, so don’t start by describing a hot, steamy sex scene. Write about how frustrated the protagonist is, give them faults and an underlying series of problems that they figure will all magically be solved just by getting laid.

You may not have ever dated/married/broken up/divorced. So don’t write about that, and instead focus on what you do know - seeing that person you feel something for, how hard or tough it is just to speak to them, how stupid whatever you say or do makes you feel.

You may not have ever experienced being crushed by a sixteen-foot tall woman, been pissed on, used for sex without consent, or even been kissed. So, instead of writing from a presumed knowledgeable starting point, see if you can mimic the same feelings. Lift something stupidly heavy, spray yourself with water, take a crowded train, ask a very close friend or family member for a kiss on the cheek.

Write what you know - if it hasn’t happened, then write about how it hasn’t happened, because, that’s what you know. Take the time to get into the mindset of what it is you’re trying to explain to those of us who haven’t experienced it from your side before.

#2: If you self-insert into the story, don’t make them the protagonist. I want to be the lucky guy, the hero; I don’t give a flying fuck about you. Name-choice is always good, but take it a set further! Barely describe your main protagonist, leave it up to the reader to see how they look, and use vague, general terms to describe them (ex. Tall, broad-shouldered, slightly heavyset, etc.)

If you do need to self-insert, make it small, forgettable, and unimportant. Most of my self-inserts in what I write are self-deprecating, a one-off joke, and gone. They hold no bearing or weight on the overarching plot.

#3: Never write for them, but for you. If you find enjoyment from the story, then nothing else even matters in the long run. There was an earlier post here that said you shouldn’t over-detail the exposition. Nuts to that, I’ll write a sixteen-paragraph section devoted entirely to what the three girls in the scene are wearing, their meals, the time of day, where they are, what they’re talking about, and transfer point-of-view between all three of them to let the reader know exactly what is going on.

Which sounds better to you:

Jane, Samantha and Lisa sat outside eating lunch, talking about nothing, waiting for the bell to ring.

OR

Jane, her long black hair tied tightly up into a ponytail, brushed a bead of sweat from her forehead, the hot sun and large, black sweater an unfortunate combination. She wished she were more carefree like her best friends, Samantha in her mini-skirt and t-shirt, Lisa with the strapless sundress that emphasized her pert breasts; she was too ashamed to broach the subject, eagerly awaiting the end of lunch.

The first section left it all up to you to decide what was going on. But I want you to see that Jane is not comfortable, that she envies her friends, that she wishes she were more like them, that it’s hot outside, and she wanted to go inside without causing a fuss.

Write for you, and nuts to those who skip or say that you should “Show, not Tell”. G.R.R.M. has spent pages of his amazing books about battles and wars and dragons to discuss what was being eaten, what the sigils of the houses are, what people wore, etc. Tell me what you see, because if you don’t, I may assume something very different.

#4: Don’t write massive walls of text like this, people don’t like it. Can’t rightly say why, really, when a book is just over overly massive block of text with no pictures in it, but... nobody ever said that every person is smart, either

 

[Joshua Tree]

I posted something to this affect 2 years ago, and it led to a nasty response from some dickhead, but you are right.

Based on my experience... women want sex just as much as me and by that I mean 10 times a week. Not stereotyping, it fluctuates from person to person, some people may not want sex at all. Obviously they aren't my type if they don't and I wouldn't expect to change them. Not everyone are sexually compatible... next. Find your match.

In society (different living in the wild) people adapt habits or learn to behave a certain way. They don't always, some even rebel against it. Ladylike, Gentlemanly, etc.
But one thing that is put out there is "weaponized sex" where women use sex. They withhold sex, or give sex as a reward to modify behavior. Putting a price on sex is the oldest profession, using sex for gain is no different.
I am of the opinion that sex is and should be mutually enjoyable by both and not something paid for. That is, if both parties are compatible... some people might need to offer some compensation.

In games sex is almost always treated as a reward, and often it's controlled by the developer... withholding it.
In the case of grind games, the player feels that they have struggled to get the sex in the game... the debt is therefore paid already, and there is no need to give the pimp anything on patreon.

Attempting to use sex as a weapon in relationships is always a bad idea. The drawbacks are plentiful; it drives your partner away, creates fights, causes tension, takes the fun out of a relationship and you literally stop being attentive to each other’s needs.

If people are expected to pay for the game, they've already paid for the sex haven't they? So give it to them already, don't make sex a reward in the game.

Women have it far easier to obtain sex when they want Vs guys (unless they go by ways to pay for it). Even what could be considered less appealing women have a much higher chance to obtain sex when they want Vs guys at same... uhm, undesired? level...

You could debate paying for sex as a single transaction. Vs get married paying, for it rest of your life.

Sex as a reward, is something men seem to feel entitled to when in a relationship. "I done something good, so I deserve..."

 

[Joshua Tree]

Which sounds better to you:

Jane, Samantha and Lisa sat outside eating lunch, talking about nothing, waiting for the bell to ring.

OR

Jane, her long black hair tied tightly up into a ponytail, brushed a bead of sweat from her forehead, the hot sun and large, black sweater an unfortunate combination. She wished she were more carefree like her best friends, Samantha in her mini-skirt and t-shirt, Lisa with the strapless sundress that emphasized her pert breasts; she was too ashamed to broach the subject, eagerly awaiting the end of lunch.

The first section left it all up to you to decide what was going on. But I want you to see that Jane is not comfortable, that she envies her friends, that she wishes she were more like them, that it’s hot outside, and she wanted to go inside without causing a fuss.

Want to add. You don't really need to include and describe everything that goes on in images (what happens on the screen). It's better to extend on what not going on.

 

[Xalenda]

For visual novels, yes. For text-based games, you get the whole package.

 

[polywog]

Women have it far easier to obtain sex when they want Vs guys (unless they go by ways to pay for it). Even what could be considered less appealing women have a much higher chance to obtain sex when they want Vs guys at same... uhm, undesired? level...

You could debate paying for sex as a single transaction. Vs get married paying, for it rest of your life.

Sex as a reward, is something men seem to feel entitled to when in a relationship. "I done something good, so I deserve..."

I've never been entitled to sex, or deserved it. It's something two people want, and do. But there are other factors here.

Say you purchased a home, have a good job, are responsible... these things make you more attractive to a woman, call it "worthy of a relationship". They aren't free, you pay for them. That's for the rest of your life, or until you change your mind, retire, etc. If you did that just to get sex, it could be very unattractive. If you just did it for yourself, because it's what you wanted, women might find that very attractive.
On the other hand, If you share a flat with 3 blokes, that might attract a different kind of woman.

If you view a long term relationship as "paying for the rest of your life" it makes you unattractive, I would think.

 

[polywog]

Want to add. You don't really need to include and describe everything that goes on in images (what happens on the screen). It's better to extend on what not going on.

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When a displayable is focused, Ren'Py will read the text associated with that displayable out loud. If no displayable is focused, Ren'Py will read on-screen text that cannot be focused. This will generally include dialogue and other text that comprises the game.

If you have the story written, and you made the image based on the text... associate the text with the image, and it makes your game playable for the visually impaired.

 

[Joshua Tree]

I've never been entitled to sex, or deserved it. It's something two people want, and do. But there are other factors here.

Say you purchased a home, have a good job, are responsible... these things make you more attractive to a woman, call it "worthy of a relationship". They aren't free, you pay for them. That's for the rest of your life, or until you change your mind, retire, etc. If you did that just to get sex, it could be very unattractive. If you just did it for yourself, because it's what you wanted, women might find that very attractive.
On the other hand, If you share a flat with 3 blokes, that might attract a different kind of woman.

If you view a long term relationship as "paying for the rest of your life" it makes you unattractive, I would think.

Making yourself attractive by all those things you mentioned, doesn't that just equal to another level of "buy in"? Also, what you got "available" to offer in a relationship also depends on where you are in life. Like you could be almost penniless living on noodles while studying to become something one day. Vs fast track a decade or so later in life and you could be well situated. But the chance of actually entered into a relationship with someone would happened much earlier stage in life.

The buying it Vs paying for it rest of the life stems from something I read once related to people (mostly males) that had to turn to sex workers for that level of intimacy was being made out as pariah's, social rejects and so forth. Where the argument was made that those that got married (or other forms of relationships) did also buy it, just on another level. From what you said above in regard of "make yourself more attractive much prove that. I don't think people (or at least the majority), flaunt their stuff just to get laid. I believe most people look for a partner in life to share all what that could bring on both good and bad. But such is not a birth right. In some countries it's not even possible. Just look at places such as India, China and others where "family policies" sort of train wrecked future generations chance of such. 3 blokes sharing a flat could very well be their only future, now that is sad.

I view long term relationships as an investment into the future in regard of your own happiness. Not some sort of "sex contract". But anyone that been in a relationship (married or not) for a length of time shouldn't be that foreign to the concept of "oh, you are paying for it". Just it's not a single transaction, and when you get it, is not a time of your own choosing.

 

[RomanHume]

As to why there is so much out there that is bad, I think it's because most porn has conditioned us to believe that good storytelling isn't necessary because the sex is the point. One of the reasons we set out to make our own game was to see if we could populate an adult game with believable characters and a story that made sense.

As the writer for the story, I even went the extra mile to read an entire text book on social psychology since the premise of the game is about the social interaction of the characters. As well as how the MC relates his view of his experiences to his therapist.

Time will tell if we succeed. But as a writer, I'm always happy to hear what people have to say about the story. I want honest critiques and ideas for improvement.




So really all I can say is, I'm trying over here. Only time and reviews will tell whether or not success is occurring.

Great topic! Cheers all.

 

[RomanHume]

In games sex is almost always treated as a reward, and often it's controlled by the developer... withholding it.
In the case of grind games, the player feels that they have struggled to get the sex in the game... the debt is therefore paid already, and there is no need to give the pimp anything on patreon.

It also seems that some devs withhold the sex because they don't know what they're going to do after they give it to the player. It's like there is this hidden fear that once the sex happens, people will loose interest.

If you bookend your sex with a good story, players will keep player. And you can keep having new sex scenes in different places and ways and it stays fresh.

There is certainly no reason for a dev to make a 40 hour game in which you get the sex in the last hour. Terribly, terribly frustrating. I love Icstor's work and Milfy City is one of my favs. But I could have banged Linda in game one and still kept playing just to see how the relationship was going to develop and what new kinky shit we would do.

If people are expected to pay for the game, they've already paid for the sex haven't they? So give it to them already, don't make sex a reward in the game.

Preach! I came for the sex! But I stayed for the Story!

 

[toolkitxx]

Sex as a reward is absolutely ok if there are mechanics in a game. This is where its important to differentiate between novels and regular games again. Performing tasks etc and being rewarded with a sex scene is part of proper game design actually.

But i have a feeling that many here refer to novel style games and that is where the chain breaks. As the majority of these are either purposely released as chapters or being financed via the Patreon model which leads often to excessive bit by bit releases. Sex sells is older than any of us and gets applied to that model quickly as well. There are many who feel that the sex might be the culmination of the story and that the players/supporters might jump ship once they reached that part - so it gets delayed. Blue balling on purpose is a strong marketing argument there and has nothing to do with bad writing anymore.

P.S. As of the lack of story telling and porn : The 70s and 80s where filled with story driven porn actually. So it is something pretty modern to reduce that part to the raw and brutal sex act. Some of the bigger studios have constantly worked on reviving that to no avail unfortunately.

 

[Joshua Tree]

P.S. As of the lack of story telling and porn : The 70s and 80s where filled with story driven porn actually. So it is something pretty modern to reduce that part to the raw and brutal sex act. Some of the bigger studios have constantly worked on reviving that to no avail unfortunately.

Production cost vs pay off sadly.

 

[GuyFreely]

I agree that writing for a VN is more like screenplay writing than novel writing. Especially given the visual elements you can incorporate. The basic idea of show, don't tell can help guide you. Also, it helps to be concise for the the player. Sure, people can have a two hour conversation that would be a wall of text if written out, but that's usually not what players are looking for. Exposition should be used sparingly as well. It's nice to fill in the backstory, but don't overdo it. If you want to have lore dumps, make them notes or collectibles the player can read if they want to. That's one benefit games have over movies. If a movie wants you to know something they have to tell you directly somehow. Games can make it optional.

Exposition examples:
"You see it all began in the late 18th century in Rome with a man named Lazio...." [hours later] "...so now you understand why it's pointless to go against us."
Vs.
"Our organization has been around for centuries, you think one man can stop us?"

 

[Zippity]

P.S. As of the lack of story telling and porn : The 70s and 80s where filled with story driven porn actually. So it is something pretty modern to reduce that part to the raw and brutal sex act. Some of the bigger studios have constantly worked on reviving that to no avail unfortunately.

The story driven porn of the 70's and 80's was not what I would call all that good or even close to good... Most suffered from the same issues as much of todays supposed story driven porn does... Very low budgets... In order to make money, costs need to be very low... Even though the industry tried to trip up the porn industry with the addition of some story, it was almost always cheaply made and poorly designed, with porn stars who were terrible at actually acting, and scripts that were just as over the top and crazy as some of todays low end porn focused VN/Games... Modern story driven porn is even worse than in the past... Which is why you are seeing more choreographed situational porn, then anything driven by any story... And because there is so much actual real life porn out there, I don't want the same thing with erotic/adult visual novels and games... If I wanted to get off real quick, there is a plethora of real life porn... I want and expect more from a visual novel and/or game, especially when it has story in it...

The subject of this thread is to talk about the improvement of not just the story itself, but also the story telling... The people just looking to quickly masturbate and move on, they could care less about story and usually just skip through it anyway... But a majority of folks want to be entertained with a good story, as well as enjoy their sexual stuff... If a VN/Game has story that is very cliché, over the top, with mostly hollow and stereotyped characters, and mostly just a bunch of back to back sexual events, then it isn't very entertaining... And just having a bunch of text doesn't equate to good story... If it isn't structured well, reads easily, progresses well, has good pacing, somewhat believable characters with some depth to their personalities (even if slightly stereotyped), and so on, then again, the entertainment value suffers and the fun factor goes down...

The only comparison of supposedly story driven real life porn (of like the 70's till today) to this industry, is applicable when comparing low rate porn fest focused VN/Games to them... What this thread is about, is seeking more focus or maybe even just a better focus on good entertainment, where story is a key element in the VN/Game...

Zip

 

[polywog]

I agree that writing for a VN is more like screenplay writing than novel writing. Especially given the visual elements you can incorporate. The basic idea of show, don't tell can help guide you. Also, it helps to be concise for the the player. Sure, people can have a two hour conversation that would be a wall of text if written out, but that's usually not what players are looking for. Exposition should be used sparingly as well. It's nice to fill in the backstory, but don't overdo it. If you want to have lore dumps, make them notes or collectibles the player can read if they want to. That's one benefit games have over movies. If a movie wants you to know something they have to tell you directly somehow. Games can make it optional.

Exposition examples:
"You see it all began in the late 18th century in Rome with a man named Lazio...." [hours later] "...so now you understand why it's pointless to go against us."
Vs.
"Our organization has been around for centuries, you think one man can stop us?"

The word is concision. The state or quality of being concise. Unlike writing a book where you're trying to fill pages, it sometimes takes longer to condense and sum up what needs to be said in a 9 second television soundbite.

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There are some simple phrases that speak volumes. One of my favorite backstory bites is "Wha.. Where am I?"
Instantly immerses the player into the character, by pulling the wool over their head, denying them the information that wasn't really necessary to begin with. The player fills in backstory data from their own imaginings and life experiences. maybe i was drinking last night, maybe i was kidnapped, aliens? regardless, they get the point, the MC is in a strange place, and they don't know how they got here. this is the moment in time where the story begins. It's easier to relate to the character, if you don't know that their date of birth is different.
Meeting the MC's wife needs no formal introduction.... "hey snookums, how was your day?" says it all, this is obviously my significant other, what the two of us went though in the past, may or may not be relevant to this story, what matters is that we're here, together now in this moment, it implys a lot. and then she responds... "snookums? you haven't called me that in ages, come here you naughty boy" thank god I was worried that i'd have to seduce her for two years.

 

[InfamousRebel]

I might be wrong, but writing a story that end up someone will play, or go through as a part of a VN/game with whatever interaction Vs read as just a story quite a different thing. Maybe it would be worth structure it more like a screenplay in terms of it end up sound good or whatnot?

Yeah I agree with that, the images tell part of the story for you. I try and Imagine the scene as I'm writing, I used deviantart to browse characters similar or as close to how I picture them myself, which in turn fed my imagination further by imagining the interaction of the story. I really wish I had the means and skills to use Daz3d. I will be endeavoring to go down that route in the near future but it'll obviously be sometime before I master that side of things.

 

[InfamousRebel]

Nothing bad or wrong with a lot of text - it might actually help you down the road to have more than you might actually use. In games (be it VN or others) you have extra methods and tools that partly eliminate some of your text. But if that text is actually important to describe what should happen in the game, who or what a person does etc that text is still part of your story but just gets displayed with a different method.
There is a good reason why people get educated in film and/or game making as you have to translate things differently into a visual medium. But yet - the most successful movie and game adaptations where often based on complete books

Very true. My partner read what I had at the beginning and she said it was good in terms of keeping you reading and curious about what's next. I probably just have jitters, Overthinking things instead of just practice, practice, practice. I wanted to give it a go as I have a lot more time on my hands right now, so it's a nice little hobby that keeps me occupied. I love the VN concept particularly 3dcg, I suppose the dream is to one day see your work brought to life in a 3d setting.

 

[InfamousRebel]

I'll also add what ruins a lot of games for me, particularly in an incest game. Almost every mother has 2, 3 sometimes 4 kids yet still have that flat tummy. Being a parent of 4 kids I can assure you all, There's no housewife with 4 kids and a fucking six pack stomach

 

[Xalenda]

On the subject of incest:

Too many games have no father/husband/brother(s)/men in them! I’m aware that NTR isn’t a huge fad with people, but it really adds a touch more realism to the whole thing. There’s no reason for the MC and mother/sister(s)/cousin(s)/aunt(s) to always be single at the start.