Can we improve the story telling in porn games?

[215303j]

Since I'm the OP, I'll say that I am or at least making an attempt. I'm just a chronic procrastinator and I've got a lot of other things that take up my time.

Oh yes, I know what you mean.

Then quit messing about with this thread/forum but get back to rendering/coding/writing you lazy fuckers!!11!!

@SeventhVixen this goes for you too of course , but I'd be happy to take part in beta testing, with the caveat that I may not be able to meet any deadlines. I will try obviously.

I think most porn games have three main components: Writing, visuals, and programming. Finding someone that is good at all three AND has the time to dedicate to making a game is very difficult. Most devs are one person operations, which makes things even more difficult. For devs, it's a balance and writing doesn't come naturally to a lot of people or is just last on the list of things they are focused on. I tend to think that the well written games are the ones that last a long time and thrive anyway and the ones that are bad don't get the financial support and the dev quits anyway.

Actually I think that the most important part of "story writing" is not about walls of text, proper English or whatever.
A good story concept, like yours, is actually not that complicated in itself (no offense) but your game is both unique and appealing. Just the basic fact that somebody is doing something else than a young guy with a landlady and two roommates is already refreshing enough to give bonus points. The fact that it does cause some controversy is also good in my opinion, because it shows that people actually care.

The correlation between story/game quality and financial support is an entirely different and difficult discussion. Personally I don't understand why certain popular games are popular and remain so even though there are vastly superior games available.

 

[Zippity]

Myself I find that not enough people will play my game in closed beta enough to give me good feedback about dialogue or story. It's hard to find testers that may be invested enough to make long remarks about the story (and not about non-native english problems.. xD)

So I guess game is just to go release on Steam early access without a proper dialogue revision with players about what is best and what needs to get better in the story.

tldr: Not only gameplay needs betatesting, Story too.

PS: I'm sure some creators don't mind their story is silly. Some stories are well being silly. Some others, don't, specially if they're trying to explain difficult things to explain and trying to stay realistic.

If you're seeking a higher selection of feedback, regardless of sources... You could try posting it on as many Adult VN/Game sites as you can, that include a forum for discussion, kind of like this one...

Or you find sampling of players/readers, who you then personally send an invitation to, along with a survey to answer when they are done trying it out... You could even add a comments section or request other sorts of input at the end of the survey/questionnaire... It's similar to what Movie production studios do when they have a press viewing or do sampler viewings of parts of a movie or the whole movie... I always suggest taking some que's from other entertainment industries, on how they conduct business with regards to gaining feedback... Especially if your current base is not big enough to gather enough information from...

Zip

 

[Zippity]

"Be the change that you wish to see in the world."
- Mahatma Gandhi

If you want better writing in porn games, I really suggest you start writing your own porn games and raise the bar. Or offer your writing services to an existing game that you think you could improve.

I always find these sorts of responses to be not only childish but overall not helpful and/or productive in any way... They just sound like, quickly thrown out defensive response in order to deflect any sort of responsibility, back at the person/s that gave an opinion on some issue, with regards to something created for public consumption... It's the "if you don't like it then step up and see if you can do it better" response, rather then just saying "thank you for your opinion/feedback" and using it as a learning moment, to either be used to better hones ones own craft, or just ignoring it and moving on... Highly defensive backlashing hurts both you and your product, more then it helps, in the long term...

When a movie critic bashes on a movie in the local newspaper, do you see the movie studio placing an advertisement saying "If you don't like the movie then go write and direct one yourself and see if you can do any better"? Nope, you don't... They suck it up, and move on...

Zip

 

[Ryder77]

I always find these sorts of responses to be not only childish but overall not helpful and/or productive in any way... They just sound like, quickly thrown out defensive response in order to deflect any sort of responsibility, back at the person/s that gave an opinion on some issue, with regards to something created for public consumption... It's the "if you don't like it then step up and see if you can do it better" response, rather then just saying "thank you for your opinion/feedback" and using it as a learning moment, to either be used to better hones ones own craft, or just ignoring it and moving on... Highly defensive backlashing hurts both you and your product, more then it helps, in the long term...

I didn't read the comment as backlash, defensive or otherwise. Certainly, when I said largely the same thing in an earlier post, it wasn't intended as backlash either.

The title of the thread, FWIW, is not "how should developers deal with criticism". It's "Can we improve storytelling in porn games". One answer to that is for the people with the skills to write good porn games actually write good porn games.

 

[Zippity]

I didn't read the comment as backlash, defensive or otherwise. Certainly, when I said largely the same thing in an earlier post, it wasn't intended as backlash either.

The title of the thread, FWIW, is not "how should developers deal with criticism". It's "Can we improve storytelling in porn games". One answer to that is for the people with the skills to write good porn games actually write good porn games.

I agree, you do get some very good writers who can actually write well in this industry... But that isn't the norm... There are far more poorly to average written VN/Games in this industry then ones at the top of their game... But that is not just in this industry... We just don't see it as much, outside of industry porn, because they are filtered through Publishers and highly edited/fixed before the public even sees/plays them... And even then, some still slip through the cracks... Sometimes it's a cultural clash in writing, where it may make more sense and read better in the native country, rather then after being translated and also interpreted... With the non-English writing, 9 times out of 10, the English version is most likely a direct or partially direct translation without someone professionally interpreting it into proper English as well... There is a difference between translation and interpretation... And even then, it still may not make as much sense, due to culture and the writers over all writing talent/experience... Even a proper translation/interpretation may not get the same intended points across, thereby matching up with the visuals or intended story/plot... I don't always think everyone takes that into account sometimes... Even if it still is an overall issue regardless...

I've run into several VN/Games in this industry, where the writing itself was top notch, but the rest of the product was a let down... Or the writing was lengthy, and there was an obvious attempt at telling a good story, but the writers lack of skill, talent, and experience just made the writing sound bad or not so good... Perhaps the writing was good, but the developer put everything else together badly, which in turn made the writing look bad... Sometimes it's an ego thing, where the writer thinks they are hot shit, but reality doesn't match up with the writers impressions of his/her own work... Or maybe some fans love it, some others hate it, and the writer is only interested in the positive feedback, therefore they never really improve over time, because their ego bruises too easily... There are so many possibilities...

Zip

 

[GuyFreely]

I always find these sorts of responses to be not only childish but overall not helpful and/or productive in any way... They just sound like, quickly thrown out defensive response in order to deflect any sort of responsibility, back at the person/s that gave an opinion on some issue, with regards to something created for public consumption... It's the "if you don't like it then step up and see if you can do it better" response, rather then just saying "thank you for your opinion/feedback" and using it as a learning moment, to either be used to better hones ones own craft, or just ignoring it and moving on... Highly defensive backlashing hurts both you and your product, more then it helps, in the long term...

When a movie critic bashes on a movie in the local newspaper, do you see the movie studio placing an advertisement saying "If you don't like the movie then go write and direct one yourself and see if you can do any better"? Nope, you don't... They suck it up, and move on...

Zip

How can I make money being a booby game critic....hmmm. But honestly, to your point, I would rather people who are less than great at story telling improve. Sure a better writer can make a better story, but I am of the opinion that devs already making games can improve their stories with just a bit of extra effort. I did give the option of "let someone else do it" for people already making games that don't want to try getting better at the story telling. With that I mean if you don't care about the writing that much (it doesn't interest you) then maybe let someone else take the burden.

The whole reason this thread exists is from playing games that are pretty good in most aspects aside from story. I'm sure a lot of us have played a game where we liked the art and even liked the premise, but it fell flat when it came to narrative and dialog. I want to like your game, but the writing is getting in my way. If you're the type of person who is normally happy to read the text in a game but find yourself skipping it as fast as possible, there's a problem. If you always skip all the text, that's a different thing. So what I'm saying is while yes, new devs making better games would be better, I'd like to see the games we have now be better. I'd like the devs who are already making games to give a little more thought to their stories.

 

[polywog]

A.I. is going to take all our jobs, it's only a matter of time.

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[Sumodeine]

I always find these sorts of responses to be not only childish but overall not helpful and/or productive in any way... They just sound like, quickly thrown out defensive response in order to deflect any sort of responsibility, back at the person/s that gave an opinion on some issue, with regards to something created for public consumption... It's the "if you don't like it then step up and see if you can do it better" response, rather then just saying "thank you for your opinion/feedback" and using it as a learning moment, to either be used to better hones ones own craft, or just ignoring it and moving on... Highly defensive backlashing hurts both you and your product, more then it helps, in the long term...

When a movie critic bashes on a movie in the local newspaper, do you see the movie studio placing an advertisement saying "If you don't like the movie then go write and direct one yourself and see if you can do any better"? Nope, you don't... They suck it up, and move on...

Zip

I had to go back and read your response a couple times because I honestly wasn't sure if you were serious or trolling me. At no point did I bash or attack the OP or say anything other than encouraging words to him/her. I think we can all agree that a lot of current games would benefit from an improvement in writing. No argument there.

I didn't take offense to anything the OP said. He didn't call out my game or say my writing sucks - I have no reason to get mad or upset at anything he/she said. The point of my post was to say that there is indeed plenty of room for someone (possibly OP) to enter the market and make a very well-written game, and pretty much said as much in my second paragraph. The OP found a need in the market that isn't being filled, and frankly I'd encouraged OP to enter the market. Not as a "Well, fuck you! See if you can do better!", like you said, but as a "I'd actually really be interested in seeing something you can create". Hell, OP even used "We" in the post title so I (perhaps wrongly) assumed he/she wanted to be part of the solution to the problem he so eloquently identified! The industry needs new devs that are passionate about writing good stories, like this OP. That is the only way this industry grows and becomes more respectable.

So I'm going to turn the tables on you, sir, and say that posts attacking others for trying to help and calling them childish is extremely immature and ineffective in moving the conversation forward! ;-)

 

[215303j]

The whole reason this thread exists is from playing games that are pretty good in most aspects aside from story. I'm sure a lot of us have played a game where we liked the art and even liked the premise, but it fell flat when it came to narrative and dialog.

I do think we need to differentiate a couple of things with regards to writing, such as:
- premise / concept (this should be both interesting and differentiating from other games)
- background story (especially if the story is not set in "generic sub-urban America" but e.g. in a fantasy world or sci-fi, the circumstances should be properly explained)
- characters and character depth
- dialogue and narrative style
- actual use of the English (or whatever else) language including all it's sub-text and innuendo that especially the British are so great at.

But personally, I am already very happy if a game does a good job with the first 3.
The other two are bonus points that are hardly ever reached in these games.

And the last one, the use of English, is also very dependent on the tone you want to achieve. For instance, compare American comedy TV with British comedy TV and you'll see a huge difference (IMHO in favour of the British version) when it comes to the use of language.

 

[polywog]

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[GuyFreely]

I do think we need to differentiate a couple of things with regards to writing, such as:
- premise / concept (this should be both interesting and differentiating from other games)
- background story (especially if the story is not set in "generic sub-urban America" but e.g. in a fantasy world or sci-fi, the circumstances should be properly explained)
- characters and character depth
- dialogue and narrative style
- actual use of the English (or whatever else) language including all it's sub-text and innuendo that especially the British are so great at.

But personally, I am already very happy if a game does a good job with the first 3.
The other two are bonus points that are hardly ever reached in these games.

And the last one, the use of English, is also very dependent on the tone you want to achieve. For instance, compare American comedy TV with British comedy TV and you'll see a huge difference (IMHO in favour of the British version) when it comes to the use of language.

I see the premise or concept of a game as somewhat independent of the writing. By that I mean you don't have to be a good writer to have a good idea for a game. You have to be or have a good writer to deliver on that idea, but that's the separation in my mind.
I can't remember the thread at the moment, but I remember posting about setting up the rules for your game world before. If you are going to use something in your game that isn't widely understood, you need to explain it. If you are going to have magic, you need to establish the rules. If you don't establish the rules, then it can feel like you are just cheating. Using some plot device to pull you out of a jam whenever you need it to.
There is another active thread on character consistency that people can check out on that topic. I think it's important that characters feel real.
Dialogue can really flesh out a character and help identify them. If I say, "That is highly illogical, Captain." A good number of people probably know who I'm referencing from one line.
Use of English is a bit of a mixed bag. Obviously, non-native speakers are going to have a harder time with the subtleties of innuendo and the like. This goes both for a dev and for a player. Even as a native speaker, it's often hard to pick up on things like sarcasm when they are purely in written form. So this one I'll let slide for the most part.

I think story telling can seem deceptively simple when it is done well. The untrained eye will miss the care that was taken by the author. It's a bit like eating a dish and going, "I could make this." If you have never cooked before, the chances of you recreating a dish from only having eaten it is a bit optimistic. If you are a novice chef, you are best off trying to follow a recipe exactly as written. Once you learn about how to flavor food and proper application of heat, etc. you can start experimenting with you own style. Expert level chefs could tell you exactly how something was prepared just by tasting it. Writing is a similar journey. If you just take all the elements of a story and throw them together, you are likely to make a hot mess. You have to learn what makes a good story from the ground up.

 

[Zippity]

I had to go back and read your response a couple times because I honestly wasn't sure if you were serious or trolling me. At no point did I bash or attack the OP or say anything other than encouraging words to him/her. I think we can all agree that a lot of current games would benefit from an improvement in writing. No argument there.

I didn't take offense to anything the OP said. He didn't call out my game or say my writing sucks - I have no reason to get mad or upset at anything he/she said. The point of my post was to say that there is indeed plenty of room for someone (possibly OP) to enter the market and make a very well-written game, and pretty much said as much in my second paragraph. The OP found a need in the market that isn't being filled, and frankly I'd encouraged OP to enter the market. Not as a "Well, fuck you! See if you can do better!", like you said, but as a "I'd actually really be interested in seeing something you can create". Hell, OP even used "We" in the post title so I (perhaps wrongly) assumed he/she wanted to be part of the solution to the problem he so eloquently identified! The industry needs new devs that are passionate about writing good stories, like this OP. That is the only way this industry grows and becomes more respectable.

So I'm going to turn the tables on you, sir, and say that posts attacking others for trying to help and calling them childish is extremely immature and ineffective in moving the conversation forward! ;-)

It wasn't a trolling post... I was responding to that particular part of the persons response, where the person was saying to someone, that if they wanted to see better writing in porn that perhaps they should start writing porn themselves... That is a deflection type of response, which is inherently defensive in nature... Telling someone to basically do it themselves if they don't like it, that was what I was responding to... Look at the post I quoted when I gave my response and this is what the person said exactly:

"If you want better writing in porn games, I really suggest you start writing your own porn games and raise the bar. Or offer your writing services to an existing game that you think you could improve."

The way it reads, sounds like a deflection of responsibility for improving writing back on to the reader/s to see if they can do any better... Rather then taking responsibility for ones own writing, and/or taking the criticism from a given reader as a learning experience or outright ignoring it...

Zip

 

[polywog]

In the early days of computers there were text based games with no pictures, the writer had to describe the scene, and give a graphic description of what was taking place. It's true, that a picture says a thousand words, actual graphics reduce the need for graphic description, but an image does not tell the entire story. A talented artist can convey some emotion through facial expression but still there is more that needs to be said literarily. In a visual novel the player goes from one image to the next, but it would take too many images to not leave gaps between illustrations. The vn developer knows the story, so it makes perfect sense to them, but the gaps might be chasms for the player too big to bridge the player is stuck.
For example if the player is sexually inexperienced, and playing the game to learn and one minute the landlady is very angry at the MC when she catches him rubbing himself with her favorite silk panties, and in the next frame she's taking off her clothes. The player is confused... how, why, wut, impossibru, that never happens irl... but it does, and they want to know how. Crossing a chasm requires a huge leap, a massive suspension bridge, jet propulsion, something is missing. A writer who has traveled this path many times before, and knows it like the back of their hand may take for granted the steps along the way, but for the player, not even a walkthrough will help. These critical moments are what makes or breaks a game.

What sorcery made the landlady behave out of character? This is where the writer is put to task.

 

[Ryder77]

"If you want better writing in porn games, I really suggest you start writing your own porn games and raise the bar. Or offer your writing services to an existing game that you think you could improve."

The way it reads, sounds like a deflection of responsibility for improving writing back on to the reader/s to see if they can do any better... Rather then taking responsibility for ones own writing, and/or taking the criticism from a given reader as a learning experience or outright ignoring it...

Zip

I see the statement more as a friendly invitation to take an active step to help raise the bar for writing in porn games. I have no difficulty with criticism, but, IMO, the best way to get better writing in porn games is for people who can write better porn games to write better porn games.

 

[Sumodeine]

I see the statement more as a friendly invitation to take an active step to help raise the bar for writing in porn games. I have no difficulty with criticism, but, IMO, the best way to get better writing in porn games is for people who can write better porn games to write better porn games.

I started to type a response to Zip, but deleted it because it further derailed the thread and I don't want to get into an argument on a forum about the intentions of a comment I made. You understood it, @Ryder77 and I thought it was pretty clear, myself. @GuyFreely didn't call out me or my game, so I clearly have nothing to be defensive about, but Zip decided that it was.

@GuyFreely, I'm sorry if you saw my comment as anything other than encouragement. You seem genuine in your initial post about wanting to see an improvement in the writing of games. Good luck to you. If you decide to start your own game, let me know if you would like any help or have any questions along the way. My original point remains the same: Sometimes, if you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself! If that means making or writing a game yourself, I really do encourage that. We need more well-written games out there to elevate this industry.

 

[toolkitxx]

The immediate problem with generalizing 'writing' here is the diversity of games where it might be used.

I fully agree that in novel style games writing and its quality is essential. The story and text are essential elements of that type and genre - so writing as an element becomes essential too.

From where i sit there is writing and writing in the end. Writing a book or novel requires a decent if not high level of understanding of the language, its culture and a pretty good idea of the audience that is supposed to read it. Failing in any of those 3 will make it a horrible result.

Then there is sub-text. That is everything not novel based. Its a supporting element for all the other games when graphic representation lacks enough power or details to pass on a certain message, mood etc. As some already mentioned - the good old era of text based adventures relied heavily on not just sub-text as there where no graphical elements to transport a mood or message. In modern games with the amount of graphical content text mostly just becomes sub-text (when it is not a novel based genre).

I am old, old-fashioned and actually own a few thousand real books - not e-books. That isnt true at all for the younger generation anymore. Reading in general has been pretty much on a steady decline which is very much reflected in things like a tl;dr in every second posting. People simply dont read properly anymore at all which again turns into abbreviated writing when people create games. So good writing requires some decent reading ability first - which i believe is the major problem to start with.

As of the lack of professionalism - i rather call it lack of experience in life. To write good erotic stuff requires some decent experience in life first. If you dont understand how it feels to be caressed, how a partner reacts to certain stimuli than you are doomed to fail even if you can write fantastic other stuff. On top of that - lack of diversity. Having at least both a male and a female writer is almost mandatory in my opinion. Most of the games that are around are half-witted results of what some inexperienced youngster believes is erotic or sexy. Just read the 'tropes thread' and you will understand my point of view.

Above all - i think it is essential to differentiate between 'erotic' and 'sex' here. Erotic in its base is meant not to reveal all the details but to start the readers /watchers head to spin up some imagination and fill the gaps. In sex it is brutally different . Its supposed to be a bang in your face, the dick in your sight, the pussy in full hd zoom and so on.

 

[GuyFreely]

It's true that I'm mostly concerned with games that are telling a story in some fashion. However, that seems to cover a huge chunk of games on here. You could have an adult game with almost no plot, say an open world sex fun park type thing, but they seem rarer. Even if the story is how you managed to bang every bangable woman in a one mile radius, it could benefit from decent writing. I would argue that even if you are being purposefully cliche, like paying the pizza guy with sex, you could still write it well with a tongue-in-cheek attitude.

I'm not as concerned with things like tropes, contrived plots, and sterotypes. An amateur story teller can lean heavily on those sort of devices. My bar for the types of stories I'm going to encounter in adult games isn't very high, but there is a sort of bare minimum for writing skill that I don't always see. Off the top of my head there's a few things I'd like to see more of in these games. A coherent plot, believable characters, and choices that matter. A coherent plot is just one where the scenes make sense and flow naturally toward a conclusion. Believable characters can still be extreme, I just don't like it when a character seems like a void that lines of dialogue come out of when needed. They should have personalities and feel like people. Choices that matter I hope is pretty obvious.

As I mentioned, there are several threads on specific problems. There's a current thread on character consistency. I know there was a thread where we talked heavily about choices. I don't want to go down those rabbit holes here.

To the purpose of the thread, here's a short article on narrative structure for any amateur writers out there. This is a fairly common breakdown, but if you've never learned this, then here ya go.

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[A Nonny Mouse]

Ok probably in the minority for what I'm about to say here..

Just completed version 2 of being a DIK,..... pretty much spam clicked through the last 2/3rds of that update, very disappointed.

I think this is a prime example where the quality of the writing is top notch, combined with the genuinely funny humour and excellent artwork, yet the balance in proportion to the sex acts is uneven. I dunno, it felt like a chore and that the sex scenes were a 'reward' for the right choices and not a part of the story. I had to grind/scum save large chunks of the new update due to constant cock-blocking scene endings, playing it felt more like a chore.

This sort of backs my previous point about the quality of story telling versus sexual content, the story telling is arguably, probably the best around at the moment? Yet having sexual content on a rewards only basis, detracts from the game when you have to repeat various scenarios over and over.

I felt like I was watching american pie, whilst sat on the rewind button.

 

[215303j]

This sort of backs my previous point about the quality of story telling versus sexual content, the story telling is arguably, probably the best around at the moment? Yet having sexual content on a rewards only basis, detracts from the game when you have to repeat various scenarios over and over.

Didn't play Being a DIK yet, but I sometimes get the same feeling when playing Melody.

All that talk about music is not really that interesting to me.
Compared to DMD, the story in Melody is better but I tend to skip less in DMD than I like to do in Melody because in DMD the talk is more relationship (and therefore sex) oriented.

On the other hand, there are also games where the story is not really the pivotal part of the sex, but where I personally still find the story interesting enough on it's own. I guess that's personal preference and it can work out well or not so well for any player.

In the end, if it is only about the sex, then it would just be two nameless CG's fucking. If it's about the story, then the CG's would have memorable names and backgrounds so that we would actually care about them doing whatever they do. That makes the sex scenes much more interesting, so we come back full-circle. So the sex and the story should support each other. There can be (large even) aspects of the story which are outside the sex-related part of the story, but then it depends on the player whether he is interested in that story or not.

 

[GuyFreely]

I don't really want to delve into specific games/VNs and if they are good or bad at storytelling. There are other places to talk about specific games. Fundamentally, I think if you are skipping all the dialogue and story to get to the sex something went wrong. (Obviously, if you do this all the time, that's different.) At a very high level, it tells me you don't care about the story. Now there are any number of reasons this may be true, and not all of them are the dev's fault. What I'm hoping we can start to avoid are things like characters that aren't fleshed out and plots that don't make sense. A story can be perfectly well written and you still don't like it, that's a separate issue.