Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.7.14] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[Daken9]

You need mental training and I know just the thing~~~

Now go read this tame stuff until it feels natural to you.
You'll thank me for this mental training.

228922

Dude, i wanna become more impervious to cringe, not end up going around with Cait and Brint dressed up as cacti.

 

[MoneyMan181]

This is also something I've thought about before, and I'm not sure that I agree that Wsan is the best all-purpose writer on the team. I think he's really good at certain things. He (or WIlliam) probably writes consistently my favorite sex scenes, and he's great at making immediately appealing characters.

Buuut, I always feel like almost all of his characters are a little...shallow, maybe? Like I mentioned about Brienne. I think he's great at making characters that express themselves well in their sex scenes, and great at showing personality through those scenes, but outside of them fall a bit short.

For instance, pretty much none of Wsan's characters have any kind of buildup at all. No relationship you have to work up to, no talking or flirting. In fact, it seems to be a recurring element that a lot of his characters are introduced immediately with sex for one reason or another, like Amber in TiTs. I think he's really good at "fetish-first" type characters, really good, but I think he doesn't really do much to develop them beyond that.

The main exception I can think of is Evelyn. While I still don't like how she was introduced (her opening scene is kinda weird imo), I feel like its the one character of his that seems to have interesting things going on outside of her immediate interactions with the PC.

I think a lot of the different writers have different strengths. I don't think Wsan could have written the kid scenes with you and Aileh, for example - doesn't play to his speciality.

I mean you're pretty spot on but... every character feels pretty shallow. Even Cait, the girl with the most content and dev favoritism, is extremely shallow and surface level. Same goes for mostly everybody else, really. Brint's a friendly bro, Azzy is just a really sweet girl, Etheryn is just Cinderella, Quin is just... Quin(who fucking cares), 'Tui is sort of a nerdy tomboy, and I've already gone over Berwyn and Arona. At least Brienne makes me feel all warm inside. There might be hints of something more to them, but they're just that. Hints. None of them are really multi-dimensional or particularly compelling, especially for a game that is pretty much text-only with this much content. I've seen things that are just 10k words that have more depth to the character compared to this game. At least with Wsan's stuff, the sex scenes are hot as fuck to compensate. Savin's scenes are good but not particularly outstanding, SKOW can vary, and TOBS' are... let's just say they make my little guy very bored.

Most characters in this game and TiTS are "fetish-first", I'm not sure what you mean by that. These games are practically built around the concept of "fetish-first" with how focused on sex they are and lack of character or story depth.

 

[Raf-Raf]

Dude, i wanna become more impervious to cringe, not end up going around with Cait and Brint dressed up as cacti.

It's...a temporary thing.
And cacti obsession is just on me,

 

[FurrBat]

It's...a temporary thing.

Photo of Daken9 post reading magic numbers:

 

[Raf-Raf]

Photo of Daken9 post reading magic numbers:
View attachment 1900273

That's a Kinu cactus.

 

[FurrBat]

That's a Kinu cactus.

The only damage in that pic is the mental and emotional damage we got after she grew up.

 

[Raf-Raf]

The only damage in that pic is the mental and emotional damage we got after she grew up.

Yep.
Tnank God abortion is a thing.
Early or Late term... *cocks gun*



BONUS:
Mental training 2.0
385054

 

[Daken9]

Most characters in this game and TiTS are "fetish-first", I'm not sure what you mean by that. These games are practically built around the concept of "fetish-first" with how focused on sex they are and lack of character or story depth.

And some of the characters in this game at least go deeper than the initial hook, 90% of TiTS is an overwhelming mass of mindless fetishes at every corner.

I'd still be pretty down with a more focused approach to character work though, like one personal quest for each companion that doesn't necessarily involve sex, or doesn't make it the main thing. I mean, even around here Kaz is pretty well liked, and i gotta imagine that's more on her semi-extensive characterization/non-sexual content than on her horse schlong and scenes (most of which have the PC catching), or at least that's the case for me. I think that's proof enough that digging deeper works wonders and that not everything needs to be about x just because that's the main theme, otherwise RPGs would still employ blankslate party members with no personality to them (again, if this this game was that bad wouldn't be playing it, but TiTS gets pretty close imo).

And since i still have that gobbo shit in my eyeballs, i'll also not lose the chance to shit on tobs and say it's a real shame he's the main guy who does non-sexual content, 'cause that shit puts me to sleep even faster than his regular scenes.

 

[MoneyMan181]

I'd still be pretty down with a more focused approach to character work though, like one personal quest for each companion that doesn't necessarily involve sex, or doesn't make it the main thing. I mean, even around here Kaz is pretty well liked, and i gotta imagine that's more on her semi-extensive characterization/non-sexual content than on her horse schlong and scenes (most of which have the PC catching), or at least that's the case for me. I think that's proof enough that digging deeper works wonders and that not everything needs to be about x just because that's the main theme, otherwise RPGs would still employ blankslate party members with no personality to them (again, if this this game was that bad wouldn't be playing it, but TiTS gets pretty close imo).

Oh 100%. I would prefer them doing less characters if it meant actually fleshing out the characters we do have and make them actually feel like companions rather than bots we leave in the tavern to never really do anything with again. For me, a lot of the satisfaction with sexual content or even just content in general, is also the emotional payoff rather than just the physical one, which is why I like Brienne so much. There isn't really another character where sex feels genuinely intimate and special besides her and Rags(only TOBS character I actually like), which I think is a real shame; especially when someone like 'Tui is just begging for romantic content.

I think it'd do the game a lot of good if they made a more conscious effort to focus on existing characters and make them feel worth giving a damn about. 'Cause as of right now, there's really no reason to care about any character that doesn't cater to your fetishes, which is a real shame.

 

[Daken9]

Oh 100%. I would prefer them doing less characters if it meant actually fleshing out the characters we do have and make them actually feel like companions rather than bots we leave in the tavern to never really do anything with again. For me, a lot of the satisfaction with sexual content or even just content in general, is also the emotional payoff rather than just the physical one, which is why I like Brienne so much. There isn't really another character where sex feels genuinely intimate and special besides her and Rags(only TOBS character I actually like), which I think is a real shame; especially when someone like 'Tui is just begging for romantic content.

Yeah, exactly. Arona's latest stuff has been pretty good, but that's pretty much it. It's why it's such a shame that Clementhine's writer left. Guy could have been a serious contestant to Wsan, and both she and his salamander girl could've seriously been up there with Brienne in the warm inside department.

 

[Skandranon]

I mean you're pretty spot on but... every character feels pretty shallow. Even Cait, the girl with the most content and dev favoritism, is extremely shallow and surface level. Same goes for mostly everybody else, really. Brint's a friendly bro, Azzy is just a really sweet girl, Etheryn is just Cinderella, Quin is just... Quin(who fucking cares), 'Tui is sort of a nerdy tomboy, and I've already gone over Berwyn and Arona.

Eh, most characters have multiple things going on. They might be archetypes, sure, but they are introduced and function as characters outside of sex.

Ryn is a princess/queen, your relationship with her is related to her confidence and how you can help her do that. She has ties to several other characters, a purpose, goals, a quest to hunt down her sister, etc. She feels like a fully fleshed out character.

Azzy is presented as a knight trying to defend her home. Atugia is Carmen's bodyguard, and has some kind of weird hidden history for the way she is. Even Arona is struggling with her people's lifestyle and how to lead them. Jumping outside of companions, just picking random people...Ragnild, the blacksmith in orc village, is mainly defined by how she is different and less savage than the other orcs.

The teacher in KM is...well, a teacher, and her main motivation is mainly her kids, with a bunch of scenes revolving around them and a chunk of her dialogue talking about them and her stats as such. Aileh is initially presented as wanting to observe you because of her mother's interest.


But with Wsan characters, for instance - the dryads? The main one you interact with's whole job is a "seed-bearer", she's defined completely by the fact that she has a dick, and most of her interactions immediately after you meet concern you introducing her to blowjobs. Evelyn is literally presented with her dick in someone's mouth, and you sub to her immediately after that. The centaurs in KM are prostitutes, and their quest to rehome them basically ends with them having more sex as a job. The new(ish) horse futa in KM revolves around having a harem, and you joining it. Heck, back in TiTs, Amber simply ran around the forest with a massive boner asking people to have sex with them.

Most of his characters are built completely around their fetish, and their main motivation and method of interaction is sex. If you notice, uncontrollable lust is a recurring element with his characters, he really likes that one (especially when paired with horse futas.) A lot of them are literally introduced having sex.

Mind you, this isn't a condemnation of Wsan or anything. I've said many times that him and William are probably my favorite writers. I'm just observing that he's not really good at everything, necessarily. He is really good at focusing around what he is good at, though, and what's he good at is the main goal for a lot of people playing this game, of course (really steamy sex scenes).

I just think that all the writers have their own strengths, and most of them can do some things better than Wsan.

...except maybe Bubbles. Not sure what he's good at.

 

[Skandranon]

Honestly, that's rather... surprising? I remember that before F95, even on Fenoxo's forum there were quite a lot of people dissatisfied with Kitsune content. Do people who dislike his writing are actually just small minority? Does CoC2's target audience likes his content?

Kitsune stuff is actually extremely popular. Kiyoko, on every poll that's popped up, is either second of tied for first with Brienne (and I believe there was one where she slightly passed her). Kinu is also praised a lot. There are a lot of people that love what Tobs' does. It's telling that after he wrote the bulk of the kitsune stuff, he was brought onto the team as a main writer, I assume mostly on the strength of that.

Of course, a lot of people hate it too. But even a lot of people that dislike it like parts of it, mainly Kiyoko (and Kinu before she grows up). But even controversy just means a lot of people are talking about it and a lot of people are playing it, one way or the other.

 

[Daken9]

Eh, most characters have multiple things going on. They might be archetypes, sure, but they are introduced and function as characters outside of sex.

Ryn is a princess/queen, your relationship with her is related to her confidence and how you can help her do that. She has ties to several other characters, a purpose, goals, a quest to hunt down her sister, etc. She feels like a fully fleshed out character.

Azzy is presented as a knight trying to defend her home. Atugia is Carmen's bodyguard, and has some kind of weird hidden history for the way she is. Even Arona is struggling with her people's lifestyle and how to lead them. Jumping outside of companions, just picking random people...Ragnild, the blacksmith in orc village, is mainly defined by how she is different and less savage than the other orcs.

The teacher in KM is...well, a teacher, and her main motivation is mainly her kids, with a bunch of scenes revolving around them and a chunk of her dialogue talking about them and her stats as such. Aileh is initially presented as wanting to observe you because of her mother's interest.


But with Wsan characters, for instance - the dryads? The main one you interact with's whole job is a "seed-bearer", she's defined completely by the fact that she has a dick, and most of her interactions immediately after you meet concern you introducing her to blowjobs. Evelyn is literally presented with her dick in someone's mouth, and you sub to her immediately after that. The centaurs in KM are prostitutes, and their quest to rehome them basically ends with them having more sex as a job. The new(ish) horse futa in KM revolves around having a harem, and you joining it. Heck, back in TiTs, Amber simply ran around the forest with a massive boner asking people to have sex with them.

Most of his characters are built completely around their fetish, and their main motivation and method of interaction is sex. If you notice, uncontrollable lust is a recurring element with his characters, he really likes that one (especially when paired with horse futas.) A lot of them are literally introduced having sex.

Mind you, this isn't a condemnation of Wsan or anything. I've said many times that him and William are probably my favorite writers. I'm just observing that he's not really good at everything, necessarily. He is really good at focusing around what he is good at, though, and what's he good at is the main goal for a lot of people playing this game, of course (really steamy sex scenes).

I just think that all the writers have their own strengths, and most of them can do some things better than Wsan.

...except maybe Bubbles. Not sure what he's good at.

It's a porn game, though. Sex is the vehicle. Even amidst the characters you listed, the only ones who aren't quite literally defined by it are the cow teacher and possibly Atugia. And half of them are introduced through sex too.

But, having said that, Wsan's characters are simple, sure, but i hardly see anything wrong with that. Frankly, i've always found simple characters as enjoyable if not more so than the average lvl 50 monsterslayer cleric prince/ss from the nowhere land, possibly because how hard it is to get them right since they give you much less to work with.

An easy premise is harder to make interesting than a complicated one, kinda thing, and in my opinion that's precisely what Wsan excels at. Just look at how Skow wrote Brienne in that one scene with Azzy, and then compare to how Wsan writes her. Again, not a supremely multi-layered character, but still one that struck a perfect balance between all the concepts that make her up, and i'd say that's true for most of his other characters too.

And on the matter of complicated, i'd also like to add that comparatively this game does that shit pretty bad. Ryn is complicated, and she's also a schizophrenic mess. All them foxes are complicated, and also unlikeable as shit (because tobs has fucked up takes that he injects into his characters, honorary mention of wolfmom). Arona isn't allowed a character arc beyond lovey-dovey stuff (which i'll take it), and Azzy fucks up even that when she wakes up one morning and decides her race is into polyamory (which, whatever, but if you're gonna force it at least write it well). Not even gonna mention the literal lvl 50 cleric princess from nowhere land, hint she's pink, 'cause that'd be unfair.

I'll take simple any day, dude.

 

[Skandranon]

Even amidst the characters you listed, the only ones who aren't quite literally defined by it are the cow teacher and possibly Atugia. And half of them are introduced through sex too.

I dont think any of the characters I mentioned are introduced through sex, though? And I don't see how Azzy or Ragnild could possibly be construed as defined by a fetish or sex. You can't even have sex with Ragnild without going through a bunch of dialogue, repeatedly, and some extra quest steps and a date.

But, having said that, Wsan's characters are simple, sure, but i hardly see anything wrong with that.

There isn't anything really wrong with it. I'm just pointing out that his writing has strengths and weaknesses, like everyone else's.

If you're not on board with the fetish of any specific character of his, there's not really much to latch on to. Of course, his fetish list is like a 99% match for mine so I don't really have that issue, but it's something that I've noticed in his writing over the years.

 

[Wrynn13]

Eh, most characters have multiple things going on. They might be archetypes, sure, but they are introduced and function as characters outside of sex.

Ryn is a princess/queen, your relationship with her is related to her confidence and how you can help her do that. She has ties to several other characters, a purpose, goals, a quest to hunt down her sister, etc. She feels like a fully fleshed out character.

Azzy is presented as a knight trying to defend her home. Atugia is Carmen's bodyguard, and has some kind of weird hidden history for the way she is. Even Arona is struggling with her people's lifestyle and how to lead them. Jumping outside of companions, just picking random people...Ragnild, the blacksmith in orc village, is mainly defined by how she is different and less savage than the other orcs.

The teacher in KM is...well, a teacher, and her main motivation is mainly her kids, with a bunch of scenes revolving around them and a chunk of her dialogue talking about them and her stats as such. Aileh is initially presented as wanting to observe you because of her mother's interest.


But with Wsan characters, for instance - the dryads? The main one you interact with's whole job is a "seed-bearer", she's defined completely by the fact that she has a dick, and most of her interactions immediately after you meet concern you introducing her to blowjobs. Evelyn is literally presented with her dick in someone's mouth, and you sub to her immediately after that. The centaurs in KM are prostitutes, and their quest to rehome them basically ends with them having more sex as a job. The new(ish) horse futa in KM revolves around having a harem, and you joining it. Heck, back in TiTs, Amber simply ran around the forest with a massive boner asking people to have sex with them.

Most of his characters are built completely around their fetish, and their main motivation and method of interaction is sex. If you notice, uncontrollable lust is a recurring element with his characters, he really likes that one (especially when paired with horse futas.) A lot of them are literally introduced having sex.

Mind you, this isn't a condemnation of Wsan or anything. I've said many times that him and William are probably my favorite writers. I'm just observing that he's not really good at everything, necessarily. He is really good at focusing around what he is good at, though, and what's he good at is the main goal for a lot of people playing this game, of course (really steamy sex scenes).

I just think that all the writers have their own strengths, and most of them can do some things better than Wsan.

...except maybe Bubbles. Not sure what he's good at.

Bubbs did write Byvernia so there's that. Now having defended Bubbles I need a bath...

 

[Daken9]

You said Wsan's characters are usually introduced through sex, so i took you meant that we can sex them at the first meeting since cases like Evelyn aren't all that prevalent. Can't remember much of anything about Ragni, but by that logic then Azzy, Atugia, Arona and Aileh are all in the same boat. It's even required to sex up the first three As to recruit them/progress their quests. Blanking on Ryn, but i think she's not far off either. So really, the cow teacher is the only one who requires us getting to know her first. And Ragni, i guess. I'd say they're the exceptions though, not the rule.

As for Azzy not being just about a fetish or sex, well then i don't see how Brienne is. She's basically Brienne-lite before her recruitment, and all about voyeurism/lesbianism after. Can ever fuck her mom and brother 5 minutes into knowing her.

And on that note, shit like this is why i can't bring myself to dislike Savin just as much as i do Tobs:



It's like the man's got two personalities vying for power in his very brain, one a Cucklord and bad lead who writes Cait and approves gobbo shit, and the other who writes Kaz, Arona and halfway ballsy content like the above. Is weird.

 

[Kroenen12]

 

[Skandranon]

You said Wsan's characters are usually introduced through sex, so i took you meant that we can sex them at the first meeting since cases like Evelyn aren't all that prevalent.

Nah, I didn't mean just sexing them at the first meeting, that's lots of characters. But "a lot", may have been an exaggeration, more like several. But I mean, literally, having/about to have/just had sex on meeting them, or immediately proposition you when you meet them. Evelyn, harem horse futa, Elthara (though she is an enemy, doesn't really count I guess), Amber (TiTs, also a few others from there).

Can't remember much of anything about Ragni, but by that logic then Azzy, Atugia, Arona and Aileh are all in the same boat. It's even required to sex up the first three As to recruit them/progress their quests. Blanking on Ryn, but i think she's not far off either. So really, the cow teacher is the only one who requires us getting to know her first. And Ragni, i guess. I'd say they're the exceptions though, not the rule.

Both Azzy and Atugia can be recruited without sex. Azzy you just duel her a few times, and Atugia, you just talk to the countess I think. I'm also almost positive Arona is recruitable without sex just by fighting her.

To elaborate, I mean Wsan's characters tend to have sex as primary motivating factor, or as a necessity. The dryads purpose in live is basically to have sex. Elthara has to have sex to function (uncontrollable libido). Vatia (snake girl, had to look up her name) doesn't even wake up without sex. The centaur caravan has to have sex for money (and only exist because the futa centaur girl got, along with her dick, an uncontrollable libido). Amber from TiTs couldn't think without sex (uncontrollable libido). The horse girl from the baths has a harem she constantly has sex with, etc.

There are lots of characters that will have sex with you after meeting them, but there's a difference. Wsan really likes writing characters that desperately need sex.

As for Azzy not being just about a fetish or sex, well then i don't see how Brienne is. She's basically Brienne-lite before her recruitment, and all about voyeurism/lesbianism after. Can ever fuck her mom and brother 5 minutes into knowing her.

Brienne all but throws herself at you even if you don't bang her, and doesn't really have any real motivations at all outside of liking you and want to hard sub for you constantly. Even her reuniting with her family is contextualized through her feelings for you - she's much less excited about seeing them than about you banging them. Even if you don't seek her out to have sex with her, once you've banged her once she has a repeatedly recurring sex scene when you step into the inn every few weeks when she isn't pregnant.

Azzy is introduced with a specific motivation and quest outside of you, and doesn't even volunteer to go with you - she hangs out in the hive until you recruit her. She likes you, but her character doesn't hang on yours like Brienne's does.

Also, I can't see how Azzy is at "all about voyeurism/lesbianism". As far as I know, there a single, randomly activated sex scene concerning it, and maybe one talk? And it can be entirely deactivated.

Bubbs did write Byvernia so there's that. Now having defended Bubbles I need a bath...

I don't think a bath is gonna work for that, you might need Jesus in your life.

 

[fetishgirl]

Kitsune stuff is actually extremely popular. Kiyoko, on every poll that's popped up, is either second of tied for first with Brienne (and I believe there was one where she slightly passed her). Kinu is also praised a lot. There are a lot of people that love what Tobs' does. It's telling that after he wrote the bulk of the kitsune stuff, he was brought onto the team as a main writer, I assume mostly on the strength of that.

Of course, a lot of people hate it too. But even a lot of people that dislike it like parts of it, mainly Kiyoko (and Kinu before she grows up). But even controversy just means a lot of people are talking about it and a lot of people are playing it, one way or the other.

I don't doubt your knowledge of polls you do normally back up with evidence the only thing that baffles me about this. Is if this is true why is there chat leaks proving how much TOBs dislikes Brienne? Also evidence of him taking the poll really personally as well. I think the Kitsune stuff was popular but lost the popularity as that would mean TOBs' petty behavior makes more sense? Or maybe just a personal dislike of Wsan? As we also saw a chat leak that proved that Wsan was genuinely upset about the scene and has requested more control over his characters for the future.

Something doesn't add up here if you take all information into account. I can't help but think the Kitsune content is dropping off in popularity. Especially when Takahiro is the next major project of the kitsune den. I fail to see who he appeals to? Monte however did mention the male version of Kiyoko coming but I don't think that is written by TOBs.

 

[gregers]

What I take from this discussion is that apparently there really are people who don't corrupt the beehive, since you've got Azzy as a companion. You're all sick freaks in my book.