Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.7.27] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[Svcya]

I'd rather not turn this into a fight with every post consisting of quoting walls of each other's text, so making this as succinct as i can.

catcall has a well defined and tangible goal involving actual human emotions beyond MC not wanting to lose their soul, while kas is literally the archetypical JRPG demon king stand in as far as motivation goes. far be it for me to question your ethics but if the only motivation for saving a life is you fancy her sister then someone probably should.

i appreciate your attempts at rationalizing writing but i'd much rather stick to what makes an engaging narrative. and i think a narrative is more engaging when characters choose to act, not when they are forced to on pain of death or worse.

there might have been some miscommunication about the mary sue part. i don't mean to convey people think she's a mary sue because she's the first party member and the only healer for a good hour. the intention is to explain why she has more content than everyone else which include her being all of those things and is thus likely the first character they designed and be in most players' parties. i'll admit the sentence structure isn't clear enough on that.

as for flaws, does anyone else have them? gonna assume you know enough to not think having a sad backstory or an off-screen redemption arc counts as a flaw or stops one from being a mary sue. i'd take your point if the rest of the party has character flaws that becomes sources of conflict, but they don't. it's "pick your flavour of perfect" all the way round.

i've been holding off on this but it strikes me as oversensitive to call what the kitsune do "treating us like shit" to begin with. nakano is a try hard edgy boy and takahiro is a drunk asshole, but everyone else is entirely hospitable after their initial encounters during which the MC was a trespasser. surprises me to even have to say this since you can literally bed and impregnante members of their community. do your versions of the game have rindo and the shrine maidens just tell you to piss off in bold letters? the same applies to the kinu drama where people act as if kinu's literally just flipping off the MC on sight. putting this aside, assuming they really are throwing dirt at us at every turn, how is modern japan being completely different not assumed knowledge? and if they are a different race that doesn't have to link to japan, why have a disclaimer about japan? this entire train of logic is woefully incoherent. the kitsune is modeled off of ancient japan even though they can act however the fuck you wanted, because ancient japan is more interesting than however the fuck you wanted, and there needn't be a single reason more.

i have in my post criticized TOBs' tendency to mindlessly model behaviour off of media and writing out of character, just because i didn't mention kiyoko acting out of character specifically doesn't mean she's excluded.

again, i don't see game worlds and characters as play-doh for the player even in an RPG. this is a difference in values we'll just have to sit on. i'm entirely fine with the current ryn-esque point system for kinu.

i did say CoC2 is better off detaching itself entirely from CoC1, in those exact words. not sure what you wanted to get out of me there.

whether or not that last chunk was typed out in good faith remains a mystery to me. you can look up the back fire effect fairly easily and find articles in both casual and scholarly contexts. however curious you are you weren't curious enough to at least do that much and instead opted to use it as a gotcha.

i never proclaimed that players shouldn't criticize the works of an artist, only that sending your criticism directly at them and expecting an immediate response is unreasonable and unproductive. i have stated that letting criticisms out in forums and discussions is a more productive alternative, which covers your "if everyone's saying it they might have a point" scenario. "it's gonna happen anyways" is not a good excuse to do it or endorse it. and no, they do not owe it to you to explain why your criticism is invalid. it helps neither you or them or the final product. if they think it's useful, they use it to improve the product, and if it isn't, they don't. in the end the product is what they are selling, not their engagement or time. i don't see why they should waste time to help you find closure.

in my experiences of critique sessions the reciever is only allowed to thank the critic or ask for further clarification. any attempts at explainaing themselves or arguing is seen as poor etiquette, poor etiquette for the displaying of which i have criticised the devs in the same post. again, don't know what you want from me there. i don't like throwing the word stawman around but i struggle to call this anything else. makes me wonder if you've actually read over my post and tried to understand my position or if you just saw a post that looked vaguely like a defense and scanned it for any angle of attack you can find.

 

[Walk Cycle]

holy succinctness batman

Your views on criticism seems great in theory. If you assume the creator(s) don't have huge egos and would willingly seek criticism and wouldn't regard any/every criticism as an attack on their character or their abilities. Instead you have to deal with people like this:

To be honest I didn't even know why you had to add that last part about devs and criticism. Any reasonable person would understand that creators aren't at their beck and call and expect immediate action/response regarding their criticism. People here are mostly memeing about how they usually react with criticism with the grace of fish out of water.

As for the whole Kitsune debacle, my main beef is why all of this is here in the first place. I don't want (and even expected) a mediocre Japanese Family Melodrama based on Tobs retarded view on how Familial Love = irreversible dependency on parents. I play porn games because I want to read something erotic not have some guy keep calling me a horrible father because of things I can't control. This isn't an engaging narrative, just the equivalent of me entering a strip club expecting to see tits but ending up having a stripper verbally berate me because her father abused her as a kid.

 

[MoneyMan181]

I find it way neater and easier to follow when things are being quoted so I'll just keep doing that.

catcall has a well defined and tangible goal involving actual human emotions beyond MC not wanting to lose their soul, while kas is literally the archetypical JRPG demon king stand in as far as motivation goes. far be it for me to question your ethics but if the only motivation for saving a life is you fancy her sister then someone probably should.

It's been a while since I played through it, but what emotions are in that quest? Her reuiniting with her dad? Why should I care about that when I don't like the character? Besides that though, I have no idea what the point you're trying to make here is.

i appreciate your attempts at rationalizing writing but i'd much rather stick to what makes an engaging narrative. and i think a narrative is more engaging when characters choose to act, not when they are forced to on pain of death or worse.

It's not engaging if you don't care about Cait or her family, which would be normal considering you don't interact with her family and you might not like the literal whore who sleeps around with everybody for free. An engaging narrative would give reasons for the player to care about her family, which I just don't see here. Just because Cait is over-the-moon about finding her dad, that doesn't make me feel the same way.

as for flaws, does anyone else have them? gonna assume you know enough to not think having a sad backstory or an off-screen redemption arc counts as a flaw or stops one from being a mary sue. i'd take your point if the rest of the party has character flaws that becomes sources of conflict, but they don't. it's "pick your flavour of perfect" all the way round.

You're right on that front, but not all characters have every other practically worship the ground they walk on. Seemingly every single NPC loves Cait and the game goes out of its way to shove her down your throat(heh) a fair amount. Why does every other NPC being a Mary Sue/Gary Stu make the point invalid? That just means it's an even bigger problem.

i've been holding off on this but it strikes me as oversensitive to call what the kitsune do "treating us like shit" to begin with. nakano is a try hard edgy boy and takahiro is a drunk asshole, but everyone else is entirely hospitable after their initial encounters during which the MC was a trespasser. surprises me to even have to say this since you can literally bed and impregnante members of their community. do your versions of the game have rindo and the shrine maidens just tell you to piss off in bold letters? the same applies to the kinu drama where people act as if kinu's literally just flipping off the MC on sight. i have in my post criticized TOBs' tendency to mindlessly model behaviour off of media and writing out of character.

Trespasser or not, their first instinct was violence rather than just asking what we're doing there or for us to leave. All they had to do was bring us to Komari to hand her the bag thing. At least I think, haven't read it in a while and game does not lend itself to looking at older scenes well. Regardless of whether or not you can sex them(which is just food for them so kind of a moot point), they still try to make you feel unwelcome for the most part. Kiyoko telling you your opinion on who your daughter marry means absolutely nothing, your daughter holding a grudge against you for something you can't control, your wife not even remotely trying to explain and integrate you into her culture even a little bit, etc. It's not especially overt, but it's noticeable enough to deter players from bothering with the content.

again, i don't see game worlds and characters as play-doh for the player even in an RPG. this is a difference in values we'll just have to sit on. i'm entirely fine with the current ryn-esque point system for kinu.

Nobody is asking for play-doh, and I said this in my original post. You can have Kinu be her own woman while giving the player some agency when it comes to interacting with her.

i did say CoC2 is better off detaching itself entirely from CoC1, in those exact words. not sure what you wanted to get out of me there.

Point is it's never going to detach itself entirely because they share the same name. Devs didn't have to name it this, especially because the two games share almost nothing in common, yet here we are. People wouldn't be comparing them nearly as much if they just didn't try and bank on the title of the first game for extra revenue.

whether or not that last chunk was typed out in good faith remains a mystery to me. you can look up the back fire effect fairly easily and find articles in both casual and scholarly contexts. however curious you are you weren't curious enough to at least do that much and instead opted to use it as a gotcha.

You're the one making the claim, it's your job to back it up. Burden of proof is not on me. In good faith though, I decided to look it up. I didn't in the first place since I didn't even know if "backfire effect" was even the proper term for it(which it isn't) so I figured I would get nothing out of it. Regardless of any of this and going back to the original point, what does this effect to do with people not minding "unsolicited" criticism? Are you just saying you don't actually believe people could accept criticism and default to everybody having Belief Perseverance? That's... all types of silly.

"it's gonna happen anyways" is not a good excuse to do it or endorse it.

It's... not an excuse, it's just a fact of life. If you put yourself out there, you're not always gonna like what you hear.

and no, they do not owe it to you to explain why your criticism is invalid. it helps neither you or them or the final product.

Nobody owes anybody anything, but it would be nice if they handled it maturely and respected the person giving criticism. And I take pretty big issue with you saying it doesn't help anybody. What if the person asking is an aspiring writer and telling them why you're doing or not doing things would help them improve? What if you thinking about and explaining those things leads to a greater discussion and you start to see the merit of that person's criticism in that discussion? You cannot say a discussion would be unhelpful when the discussion hasn't even taken place. You never know what people could take away if everybody calmly and thoughtfully provided their side.

I'm not saying they have to defend their works constantly or what have you, I'm just asking for a little transparency. Having people explain why they do things is fascinating and can be very helpful to other people in the field or looking to get into it for a multitude of reasons. Why do you think developer commentary and the like exist?

i don't see why they should waste time to help you find closure.

Again, you're not inherently wrong but it's just a matter of being helpful. It's not a waste of time if it's helping somebody. Why would helping anybody ever be a waste of time?

i don't like throwing the word stawman around but i struggle to call this anything else. makes me wonder if you've actually read over my post and tried to understand my position or if you just saw a post that looked vaguely like a defense and scanned it for any angle of attack you can find.

I have no idea what this is in response to. My last few sentences? They were genuine questions. The whole "you're allowed to critique but only if it's not in the creator's presence" is all kinds of flawed and I don't think stands up, hence the questions. I don't know why you think I'm being vindictive, especially if I put this much effort into it. Though TOBS goes through even more so moot point but I digress. I'm not even sure what you thought made my post malicious besides the genuine question I had about the backfire effect(again didn't even know that was a term), or the "my fucking ass" thing. I said the latter because I find it incredulous you would say such a thing, especially because that would just be invalidating that part of my character of which I'm at least a little proud of.

Sorry that these posts take up so much fucking space, everybody. Wish I could format this in a better way but... *Shrug*

 

[Wavering]

I'd rather not turn this into a fight with every post consisting of quoting walls of each other's text, so making this as succinct as i can.

makes me wonder if you've actually read over my post and tried to understand my position or if you just saw a post that looked vaguely like a defense and scanned it for any angle of attack you can find.

Ironic.

-------

Also, the devs would likely not receive as much criticism as they do if they proved that they weren't so adverse to it in the first place.
An example of which would be the Atani wedding criticism, which seeing as you didn't cite your research, I will also leave you to find this by yourself :)

Now, onto an example of some of the kitsune being insufferable:
The forest kitsune (Hinata, Kiri and Yuzu) firstly threaten the player character (pc) with violence in order to get some form of food from them, if the pc declines, they outright attack the pc and then, if the pc loses, they forcibly take from them and mock them about charity - and will henceforth attack the pc on site. Then when the pc tries to get into the den, they will claim they're "returning the sentiment that the pc showed them" (not sure how that works, they attacked the pc, not the other way around) and attack the pc again.

Makes no sense how they can claim to have the higher ground over the pc, when they don't even give the pc the option to go and buy them food (as in wait in the forest for the pc to buy them something), as well as immediately start with threatening instead of begging. Struggle to see the logic to threaten when desperate instead of beg.
Would make more sense for them to be begging first, and offer to wait for the pc to buy them something - or offer their essence - and only attack if the pc tells them to fuck off. Otherwise if the pc says they'll get them something or whatever they should be fine - but apparently they can't even wait 5 minutes lol. Just bad design, coupled with obnoxiously written characters.
Doesn't help that this is most likely the first interaction the player will have with kitsune in the game, so yeah...

 

[destroyerofassholes]

I think the whole argument of glorifying creativity and writers as this holy entity that cannot be talked about unless they allow it is ridiculous. Nobody else gets on a pedestal like this. I'd maybe understand this if this game wasn't raking in shitloads of money every month, it's not a free art project, and doesn't get to be treated as such. Otherwise I'd agree, criticizing fanfiction for example is a pointless endeavour, it's a passion project with no income. Why hurt the person writing, even if you don't like it?

Savco is a business. Most of the people getting shit on are not writing for charity. They're offering a product. They're getting paid either per word written or some other metric if you're a full member.

Thus their work by nature is criticized and that isn't really up to if Savin is feeling like not getting his dick sucked in his discord.

At that point it's less an intricate work of literature and art, and more basic smut for money, which is what this game is.

I mean, fuck me man. I'm a lawyer. I wish I could just say "lmao im an artist of words fuck off" when clients shit on me for writing dogshit material. I write just as much fiction as savco does.

 

[Shiro15]

I mean, fuck me man. I'm a lawyer. I wish I could just say "lmao im an artist of words fuck off" when clients shit on me for writing dogshit material. I write just as much fiction as savco does.

I know you're speaking about entitled artist so I'm genuinely not offended. But, most professional companies hiring writers would not accept such an attitude. This is just the privilege of having a successful patreon or other form of donation. If you're working professionally under contract there are going to be deadlines and expectations of you as writer, and not meeting those demands would lead to you getting fired or your reputation deteriorating (and it would be justified). Which for most writers having a bad rep is not something you want. Especially if you do not have a regular 9-5 position with in some company. As your resume as a writer is essentially your portfolio.

I technically have not been employed by a company in over 4 years. I'm always an independent contractor. It's nice being your own boss and all, but that means you have to practice self restraint. Which Savin an Co do not, nor do they really need to due to the success of their patreon. At best all the have to do is make sure they are properly filing taxes at the end of the year. But, due to many of the fans not having any real expectations of them when it comes to deadlines or quality control. They can essentially sit back and do nothing all day. (Unless you're one of the freelancers working for them.)

Which is why in my opinion this game that had a promising premise has gone to shit. People like to talk shit about their boss, but a good manager makes sure every thing is functioning at peak efficiency, a responsible one at least makes sure the bare minimum is meet, and a bad one makes you do his job for him, and terrible one, well you probably don't want to meet that guy. And right now no one is at the helm of Sav and co's ship. Half the crew has lice, the other half has scurvy. And everyone on board got gonorrhea from Cait. Sure they have plundered some sweet booty, but it is only a matter of time before this ship sinks. I'm honestly only here to see how long this stays afloat.

 

[muschi26]

all he had to was make a younger kitsune character that doesn't share the same view of outsiders that the other kitsunes do

That’s among my longer-term writing goals, though it’s a bit early for me to start talking about that considering I haven’t got my foot in the door yet regarding submission to CoC2…

 

[Svcya]

alright if that's what you want.

It's been a while since I played through it, but what emotions are in that quest? Her reuiniting with her dad? Why should I care about that when I don't like the character? Besides that though, I have no idea what the point you're trying to make here is.

It's not engaging if you don't care about Cait or her family, which would be normal considering you don't interact with her family and you might not like the literal whore who sleeps around with everybody for free. An engaging narrative would give reasons for the player to care about her family, which I just don't see here. Just because Cait is over-the-moon about finding her dad, that doesn't make me feel the same way.

the emotion is in the premise, the execution is another matter altogether and i'd rather not pretend any part of the game is exactly heart wrenching. choosing to save a life is, in a vacuum, more engaging than being forced to save your own skin.

but not all characters have every other practically worship the ground they walk on. Seemingly every single NPC loves Cait and the game goes out of its way to shove her down your throat(heh) a fair amount. Why does every other NPC being a Mary Sue/Gary Stu make the point invalid? That just means it's an even bigger problem.

and once again i think this comes down to her being the earliest designed character and thus the first to be fleshed out. she feels everywhere because she's the only one who has enough content to qualify a presence outside of events she's personally involved in. i don't see it as the game going out of its way to shove cait in, i see it as the game not giving other party members their due screentime. i don't see how talking shit about cait as a character contributes to solving this problem. to reiterate, much of it can be alleviated, with any luck, once the other party members get what they deserve, assuming savco is at least competent enough to do that much.

the point i'm wiling to step back on is to not have everyone else's reactions towards her be so enthusiastic on top of positive. while it makes sense for a literal prostitute enchantress to appeal to everyone, it's just not interesting. agni has taken steps to include more lukewarm reactions and hopefully that's more to the tone of what they plan for cait in the future.

if everyone is a mary sue, but cait is getting the brunt of the hate, then clearly being a mary sue isn't the root cause.

Trespasser or not, their first instinct was violence rather than just asking what we're doing there or for us to leave. All they had to do was bring us to Komari to hand her the bag thing. At least I think, haven't read it in a while and game does not lend itself to looking at older scenes well. Regardless of whether or not you can sex them(which is just food for them so kind of a moot point), they still try to make you feel unwelcome for the most part. Kiyoko telling you your opinion on who your daughter marry means absolutely nothing, your daughter holding a grudge against you for something you can't control

if your first reaction to a literal break in is to talk it out you're certainly a nobler and braver man than i. it is one thing if they were actually a village out in the open fully expecting traders and travellers, and another when it's a foreign colony deliberately hidden with magic and very much not expecting visits to even be possible. they have more in common with the orc tribe than with hawkethorne. with the tone of the game being what it is (sans gwyer quest) a scuffle isn't something i hold a grudge over and all this still rings to me as people being a little more sour than is warranted.

as for kinu, i'm again fine with not being treated like dad of the year. while i'm not satisfied with TOBS' execution i understand his approach. children resent their parents for all sorts of reasons and those reasons are often out of said parents' hands. i appreciate him trying to bring this bit of reality in even if it's in a silly porn game. if you want to claim to not want full control, but then complain about the only parts of her you don't have control over, you're suddenly a lot less convincing.

it's the same thing with her marriage. it makes sense for an outsider to not have a say in a semi-political arrangement, parent or not, and colder things fudalist japan have done for the sake of social hiearchy and tradition. TOBS was too preoccupied with injecting the historical influence to consider player reaction which makes the outrage justified, but the alternative would also be far less interesting.

there is an argument to be made regarding the lack of further input on kinu's development. unfortunate, but kitsune content is already extremely bloated for side content and i doubt family therapy is something the game is desperate for. as i see it, its absence is a valid piece of criticism but ultimately an inactionable one. it's more productive to point out how silly it was to give a single piece of side content that big of a scope and that it should probably be avoided in the future.

Regardless of whether or not you can sex them(which is just food for them so kind of a moot point), they still try to make you feel unwelcome for the most part. your wife not even remotely trying to explain and integrate you into her culture even a little bit

you forgot the impregnate part. sex is food, that's one thing, sure, but being allowed to knocking up one of their shrine maidens is not quite what i consider unwelcome. the NPCs are more than happy to explain to you their roles and their culture, and provide you with their service. i literally just went through the headpat ceremony yesterday so the part about kiyoko is provably wrong.

again i feel like i'm playing a different version of the game here. the MC is intergrated into kitsune society far more than the rest of the game world, considering it's literally a magically hidden tree house club, and where our outsider status do come into play it's not out of bigotry or dickishness. in nature it's once again akin to the orc tribes, which drives me to think TOBS' reputation plays a not insignificant role in how much criticism it recieves.

Point is it's never going to detach itself entirely because they share the same name.

never occured to you the act of detachment includes changing the name?

the bit about criticism

to repeat myself: you are paying for their product, not their time or engagement. if an aspiring writer wishes to learn, they have resources dedicated to that made by people who aren't just qualified to create, but also qualified to teach. it's a waste of time on the student's part for banking on the uncertain byproducts of confronting creators with criticism, and a waste of time on the creators' part for indulging them. the potential usefulness you listed can just as well be gained by the creator sitting on a sidelines watching people discuss, argue and agree on points amongst themselves.

the answer to "why can't they just be nice and helpful" is "because being nice and helpful costs time and effort they don't owe you." there's a reason education isn't free. it's one thing for a creator to publish commentary on their own volition because they wish to do so, and another to demand a creator's commentary when they aren't open to giving it.

you said yourself the bar for what they do could not be any lower, yet here assumes they have valuable knowledge they could impart if they'd only explain. you'll forgive me if all this strikes me as a little insincere.

i still think there's miscommunication in this regard. confrontation is the key word here. it's not my intention to say the creator should not have to deal with criticism, only that they shouldn't be confronted directly about them. i have fully endorsed posting criticisms in forums and discussing it amongst ourselves, a.k.a what happens here, and have criticised them for responding to criticism that aren't confrontational. unless you're confronting the writers directly about your gripes this isn't about you.

pressuring people who aren't open to changing their minds can trigger knee-jerk defenses. which is referred to as back fire effects. they are the correct term for the specific effects at work as coined by Cook & Lewandowsky (2011). belief perseverance refers to the result and general topic of study. you'd know this if you read your way past the first sentence on wikipedia, put the term in google scholar, or just do a ctrl+f.

criticism is something that needs time to be weeded, digested and refined into something actionable, especially when they come from the general public.

just because someone was polite and nice doesn't mean it's constructive. just because it's constructive doesn't mean it'll be useful. just because it'll be useful doesn't mean it's doable. just because it's doable doesn't mean it's worth doing. and just because it's worth doing doesn't mean it makes sense to do.

this should not be so wild a claim to anyone who had worked with big projects. and yes, there also needs to be time for the creators to confront their own egos, i don't think it's reasonable to demand a proper artist to have no ego and be perfectly receptive to advice and critique, let alone for it to be even possible. if you genuinely do want the project to turn out as good as possible, you'd take this into account. and if you'd like to volunteer yourself as the exception, i envy your bliss.

as a consumer(piracy or no) you may feel you have the right to confront creators with criticism and recieve a reply in return, and given the right perspective you may very well do, but that does not change the fact that being pressured to perform this process in short order and coming up with a reply is less effective when it comes to actually improving the product. as it stands most creative teams perform this process internally in private and does not extend the critic a notification or explanation afterwards. for a good reason.

as a final note i'm under the impression that this is a discussion and not an argument, and a discussion is cooperative in nature. I expect people to meet me half way when it comes to surface level research as i will do for them when and if the need arises. if you don't intend to come off as abrasive then don't be abrasive, it's shockingly easy with written text.

 

[Wrynn13]

as a final note i'm under the impression that this is a discussion and not an argument, and a discussion is cooperative in nature. I expect people to meet me half way when it comes to surface level research as i will do for them when and if the need arises. if you don't intend to come off as abrasive then don't be abrasive, it's shockingly easy with written text.

I'd say the opposite actually. You can miss a lot of subtext and intonation in just written word which makes mistaking tone a whole lot easier. If for instance you are trying to be abrasive in your own replies (not saying you are just a if) then it's much more likely you will see others words as being abrasive if they meant it that way or not. Either way a honest discussion is always welcome as this isn't a echo chamber whatever the devs think. (And we know what they think about us here, they aren't quiet about it. But then we aren't quiet about what we think about some of them so fairs fair.)

 

[MoneyMan181]

the emotion is in the premise, the execution is another matter altogether and i'd rather not pretend any part of the game is exactly heart wrenching. choosing to save a life is, in a vacuum, more engaging than being forced to save your own skin.

And wouldn't choosing between saving one life versus many be even more engaging than that? I don't see the point of talking about a premise rather than the execution, at least in this point of discussion.

i don't see it as the game going out of its way to shove cait in, i see it as the game not giving other party members their due screentime. i don't see how talking shit about cait as a character contributes to solving this problem.

To the first sentence: Those two are essentially the same thing. Regardless, those companions will not ever reach her level of content. That would require a bevy of content to match the temple, to be involved in content that doesn't concern them(Marrying Atani), have their own quest that ties into the main story, have as many different character interactions as she does, ability to have multiple TFs, etc. Maybe if she were to never get content again most companions would be able to catch up, but we all know that isn't happening.
To the second sentence: Most people are memeing when that happens. How would us being constructive about it even help solve the problem in the first place? You said it yourself that criticism shouldn't be brought to the devs so nothing we say here will solve the problem.

while it makes sense for a literal prostitute enchantress to appeal to everyone,

Not really. Lots of people would dislike or be uncomfortable around a sex worker that is constantly trying to get in everybody's pants for a multitude of reasons. Everybody liking her anyway kinda highlights the mary sue-ness.

if everyone is a mary sue, but cait is getting the brunt of the hate, then clearly being a mary sue isn't the root cause.

You said it yourself, she has much more content than most other companions. This means there is a spotlight on her and thus all the problems with her are more easily highlighted. It's a lot easier to ignore on others because they aren't as divisive as characters and the game doesn't constantly bring them up.

if your first reaction to a literal break in is to talk it out you're certainly a nobler and braver man than i. it is one thing if they were actually a village out in the open fully expecting traders and travellers, and another when it's a foreign colony deliberately hidden with magic and very much not expecting visits to even be possible

I feel like most people would scream "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING IN MY HOUSE, GET OUT NOW" rather than immediately stab the person. If the intruder in question is shown to trying to calm the inhabitant and talk to them, I don't feel like it's too much of a stretch to say some people would at least be a little open to hear what they have to say.

if you want to claim to not want full control, but then complain about the only parts of her you don't have control over, you're suddenly a lot less convincing.

...Why? That's like saying: "if you want to kill Hitler but then say you aren't a serial killer, you're suddenly a lot less convincing". The "only parts of her you don't have control over" would be literally everything about her. You have zero control over her and VERY little when it comes to raising her. God forbid I just want to sit down and have a genuine heart-to-heart with my daughter and have her be open to how I feel as a parent. I guess that makes it less convincing to you for some reason.

it's the same thing with her marriage. it makes sense for an outsider to not have a say in a semi-political arrangement, parent or not, and colder things fudalist japan have done for the sake of social hiearchy and tradition. TOBS was too preoccupied with injecting the historical influence to consider player reaction which makes the outrage justified, but the alternative would also be far less interesting.

When she marries farmer dude, it's for the opposite of a political arrangement so this argument doesn't hold up for that version of her. Again, I don't care about the feudalist Japan comparison. This is a fictional fantasy world with a fictional race of fox-people. He is not bound to real-life parallels. Any attempt at deflecting criticism by saying this feels incredibly dishonest.

And the alternative would be as interesting as he has the drive to make it to be. You don't know how it would turn out so you can't even say that as if it's a fact.

it's more productive to point out how silly it was to give a single piece of side content that big of a scope and that it should probably be avoided in the future.

Trust me, this has been repeated more times than I can count.Though this whole situation could've been avoided had he just not decided to shunt this unjustified dislike of the Champ onto Kinu. Hell, keep the weird abusive Kiyoko thing if you really want drama and have the content be about dealing with that with Kinu.

i literally just went through the headpat ceremony yesterday so the part about kiyoko is provably wrong.

Having one instance of it doesn't mean much considering how different their society is. I'm almost positive at one point she even says something along the lines of, "There's not much point me trying to explain our culture, it's too complex for you to understand.".

again i feel like i'm playing a different version of the game here. the MC is intergrated into kitsune society far more than the rest of the game world, considering it's literally a magically hidden tree house club, and where our outsider status do come into play it's not out of bigotry or dickishness.

I'll be honest, maybe you're right and it's being made a bigger deal than it really is. I really couldn't be bothered to go through the content again to check. I will say though, that one of my only takeaways from that content is me feeling unwelcome and unwanted there. I have a strong feeling TOBS could have done better when it comes to that.

never occured to you the act of detachment includes changing the name?

...By adding a 2? You have to be joking, right? Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

to repeat myself: you are paying for their product, not their time or engagement. if an aspiring writer wishes to learn, they have resources dedicated to that made by people who aren't just qualified to create, but also qualified to teach. it's a waste of time on the student's part for banking on the uncertain byproducts of confronting creators with criticism, and a waste of time on the creators' part for indulging them. the potential usefulness you listed can just as well be gained by the creator sitting on a sidelines watching people discuss, argue and agree on points amongst themselves.

No because the input of the creator can completely change the perspective of the content. The context of scenes and the entire narrative can change if the writer explains their thought process behind things. It is also much more luck-based if those theoretical discussions are fruitful in terms of helpfulness if the creator isn't present. Maybe nobody says anything in response, maybe it just becomes one big shitpost fest. The chances of the discussion actually being a boon increases so much more if the creator takes part in it.

there's a reason education isn't free.

To imply a writer taking maybe 30 minutes out of their day to respond to criticism is the same as a college course is a tad silly.

you said yourself the bar for what they do could not be any lower, yet here assumes they have valuable knowledge they could impart if they'd only explain. you'll forgive me if all this strikes me as a little insincere.

Well first off the bar couldn't be lower for actual non-smut writing but for actually writing porn? I'll say many things about Savin and Co but that is one of the few things they undeniably get right(barring TOBS). That could be valuable knowledge to some but since I know odds of someone asking about that is extremely small so I'll even disregard that for you.

Getting insight as to how and why a creator does things, even if those things are bad and the reasoning flawed, can be a good example of what NOT to do. It allows people to learn how to avoid the same mistakes the creators in question made. That and even a broken clock is right twice a day. All the writers do get some things right which would only make their thoughts on the matter all the more interesting.

it's not my intention to say the creator should not have to deal with criticism, only that they shouldn't be confronted directly about them.

How is this not the same thing? You're saying we should not bring the criticism to them and that they should only seek it out themselves but what if they just never see said criticism? What if they're not lucky to be big enough(which most writers definitely are not) to have a separate forum discussing their works? What then? And why would them experiencing said criticism in a separate forum suddenly make it okay?

pressuring people who aren't open to changing their minds can trigger knee-jerk defenses. which is referred to as back fire effects. they are the correct term for the specific effects at work as coined by Cook & Lewandowsky (2011). belief perseverance refers to the result and general topic of study. you'd know this if you read your way past the first sentence on wikipedia, put the term in google scholar, or just do a ctrl+f.

Apologies, you're right. I was sleep-deprived and only skimmed through the thing. Though I can't help but feel like the last sentence is just a tad bit passive aggressive.

and yes, there also needs to be time for the creators to confront their own egos, i don't think it's reasonable to demand a proper artist to have no ego and be perfectly receptive to advice and critique, let alone for it to be even possible.

Agreed. However I also don't think it's reasonable to coddle them and their egos just because they're incapable of proper introspection.

this should not be so wild a claim to anyone who had worked with big projects.

This makes it sound like you have experience with such things. If you do, I'm curious what that would be.

as a consumer(piracy or no) you may feel you have the right to confront creators with criticism and recieve a reply in return, and given the right perspective you may very well do, but that does not change the fact that being pressured to perform this process in short order and coming up with a reply is less effective when it comes to actually improving the product.

Again, I would agree. The thing I'm curious about would be who is pressuring them to do it in short order? I don't think I've ever seen a case of someone blatantly asking for their criticism to be replied to, nevertheless quickly. It's solely on the creator in question if they feel this way without prompting.

as it stands most creative teams perform this process internally in private and does not extend the critic a notification or explanation afterwards. for a good reason.

This isn't the case for this project, though. Unless they have some stealth critic on the team reviewing their stuff with no credit given that you know about, I'm not sure why you bring this up.

I expect people to meet me half way when it comes to surface level research as i will do for them when and if the need arises.

Didn't I already say twice I didn't actually know that was the official term and thus I didn't feel the need to look that up? I'm not sure what else you want from me, dude.

if you don't intend to come off as abrasive then don't be abrasive, it's shockingly easy with written text.

Just read Wrynn's post. I did not intend to be abrasive at any point when writing any of this. Trust me, it would've been a lot more noticeable if I actually wanted to be.

Thank you for being open to dialogue, though. Refreshing to hear a different take.

 

[Skandranon]

Refreshing to hear a different take.

Heeey.

 

[MoneyMan181]

Heeey.

You're included in that too. I don't always say it but still applies.

 

[Kallisto]

On the topic of people in the kitsune den's attitude towards the player.

Spoiler: It's ya boi, Nakano

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The kitsune don't curse you out and flip you the bird, but your outsider status is plainly stated to you by almost everyone in the den. This is a dialogue you get when you go to do your first mission for Nakano. I believe the completion of this first quest is necessary to unlock a few things with the kitsune. But to me it came kind of out of nowhere. It's like you're a newbie at work and see your coworker struggling with something. You go over to help and they reply "Oh you want to help? That'll be great but you know this doesn't make us friends right? You'll never be welcomed on the team no matter what you do".

Unnecessary and completely unsubtle, but it gets the point across if you're trying to make someone feel excluded (which was Tobs' aim with the kitsune and their not-japanese society, no matter how many you can bang or help). Nakano saying "you'll never be treated as one of our own, even if everyone will be too polite to state the fact directly" is especially funny because several of the kitsune npcs say this kind of shit right to your face.

 

[fetishgirl]

alright if that's what you want.

if your first reaction to a literal break in is to talk it out you're certainly a nobler and braver man than i. it is one thing if they were actually a village out in the open fully expecting traders and travellers, and another when it's a foreign colony deliberately hidden with magic and very much not expecting visits to even be possible. they have more in common with the orc tribe than with hawkethorne. with the tone of the game being what it is (sans gwyer quest) a scuffle isn't something i hold a grudge over and all this still rings to me as people being a little more sour than is warranted.

as for kinu, i'm again fine with not being treated like dad of the year. while i'm not satisfied with TOBS' execution i understand his approach. children resent their parents for all sorts of reasons and those reasons are often out of said parents' hands. i appreciate him trying to bring this bit of reality in even if it's in a silly porn game. if you want to claim to not want full control, but then complain about the only parts of her you don't have control over, you're suddenly a lot less convincing.

it's the same thing with her marriage. it makes sense for an outsider to not have a say in a semi-political arrangement, parent or not, and colder things fudalist japan have done for the sake of social hiearchy and tradition. TOBS was too preoccupied with injecting the historical influence to consider player reaction which makes the outrage justified, but the alternative would also be far less interesting.

there is an argument to be made regarding the lack of further input on kinu's development. unfortunate, but kitsune content is already extremely bloated for side content and i doubt family therapy is something the game is desperate for. as i see it, its absence is a valid piece of criticism but ultimately an inactionable one. it's more productive to point out how silly it was to give a single piece of side content that big of a scope and that it should probably be avoided in the future.


you forgot the impregnate part. sex is food, that's one thing, sure, but being allowed to knocking up one of their shrine maidens is not quite what i consider unwelcome. the NPCs are more than happy to explain to you their roles and their culture, and provide you with their service. i literally just went through the headpat ceremony yesterday so the part about kiyoko is provably wrong.

again i feel like i'm playing a different version of the game here. the MC is intergrated into kitsune society far more than the rest of the game world, considering it's literally a magically hidden tree house club, and where our outsider status do come into play it's not out of bigotry or dickishness. in nature it's once again akin to the orc tribes, which drives me to think TOBS' reputation plays a not insignificant role in how much criticism it recieves.

Good to see another like Skandranon with differing opinions. I won't get involved with the Cait stuff and as for the issue with critcism I don't think you and I can find middle ground I am firmly on Moneyman's side so we will agree to disagree and I don't want to go off-topic.

With the Kitsune den its always nice to get different opinions but what you have written so far makes me think you are not up to date with all the content. The reason I think this is, that I too was like you and didn't fully understand the level of hatred for the Kitsune den until I dived deeper into the lore. The Raphael content is what changed everything for me. Don't get me wrong like Moneyman I had issues with what happened to Kinu but I was open to future updates improving on those bumpy patches in the relationship between parent and daughter. If you do know about the Raphael content I would love to hear your take on it and how you think it improves the narrative.

However considering your new I don't think you understand how petty ToBS is as a person either. To sum it up he has jealousy issues with one of the 'waifus' of the game written by their colleague to the point that Savin the project lead allowed ToBS to write an Out of character rape loss scene for the waifu character out of pure spite. It is also on record that the writer of the character was very upset with that scene and was shocked that Savin allowed it. What makes it even worse is that Skandranon will tell you that despite our complaining here Kiyoko does extremely well in the polls and comes between 1st-3rd throughout the years. So Kiyoko is very well liked but because she is currently losing to his colleague's character it drives him mad with rage.

That will give you background context that people here don't have an issue with just ToBS writing but his professional demeanour with his colleagues in public. Also before I go I want directly address some of what you have written feel free to correct me on this if I am wrong.

1st: I thought there were multiple ways of entering the kitsune den wasn't one of them being told how to enter it by a denzien of the den I think Kurako? Don't see why this couldn't have been settled peacefully with this route rather than being forced as you said to break and enter.

2nd: I think your Kinu point comes across as a little contradictory. On one hand you are acknowledging its a porn game and you appreciate reality being brought to it. Then you go on to say I quote 'i doubt family therapy is something the game is desperate for'.
So my question is why is the drama of Kinu being a spoiled teenager or young adult with essentially 'Daddy' issues acceptable outside of the norm of porn content but resolving said content isn't?
I think here you are trying to justify your own personal taste in content while dismissive of Moneyman's own.

3rd: Again with the Kinu point I think you aren't seeing the fact that no matter what you do your good intentions as the player character are used against you. If you encourage independence its basically why wasn't Daddy around to protect me from Mum's traditional nature. If you encourage support for Kiyoko's teachings its basically why wasn't Daddy there when Mother has been supporting me this whole time. Both outcomes are awful no matter what you pick. I agree with you that it gives a real feel to the situation and its a nice touch but not being able resolve it makes me feel like shit as a player.
So do you find depressing realism that cannot be overcome an enjoyable feature in a porn game?

4th: I kind of agree with both you and Moneyman on the feudal Japan thing. I agree with you that ToBS was sticking to a theme and that can strengthen the narrative but I also agree with Moneyman in the way that its ToBS own fictional creation and it led to the Kitsune den being too narrow minded. My question to you is that do you really think it paid off ToBS approach when there is no true conflict resolution?

5th: Regarding side content I think expansive side content can really compliment the overall story and most people feel the same. People here aren't upset the Kitsune content exists in fact people had high expectations and were looking forward to it. People just hate how it was handled. For example the most hyped content even more so than the contiunation of the main story is the Brienne family marriage arc. That will be fairly extensive. Also People were happy for more Berwyn content until they saw how it was executed. Is extensive side content in a porn game that focuses on family and sexy times really a bad thing?

6th: Regarding the Shrine maiden stuff have you really read all the content surrounding it? Try knocking up Mai then come back to me here and tell me how happy Komari is that you knocked up the prodigy successor. When you read more you realize you are welcome on a surface level out of obligation and politeness but as you correctly put it. Sex is just a meal to them it isn't a true connection.

7th: About the Orc tribe comparison it really isn't the same. If you read the 'Good' ending where you impregnate Ragnild, Hretha, Arona and Infrith at the same time. You will see how they treat you is vastly different. You also break a lot of orc traditions and can make real positive changes which is reflected in how the orcs treat you. The only kitsune that I would argue is grateful and truly appreciates you is Rindo. I also think she is the only Kitsune who has plans to live in the wayfort outside of the Kitsune den and the only character who feels like real progress.

My final question and then I will shut up is. How much content have you actually done? I just get the feeling you haven't explored everything yet?

Either way welcome to forum and despite the push back we are happy to have you here and if you are enjoying the game despite everything you are the winner be happy you can enjoy what we cannot.

 

[Skandranon]

="fetishgirl, post: 9092521, member: 1162024" ]
However considering your new I don't think you understand how petty ToBS is as a person either. To sum it up he has jealousy issues with one of the 'waifus' of the game written by their colleague to the point that Savin the project lead allowed ToBS to write an Out of character rape loss scene for the waifu character out of pure spite. It is also on record that the writer of the character was very upset with that scene and was shocked that Savin allowed it. What makes it even worse is that Skandranon will tell you that despite our complaining here Kiyoko does extremely well in the polls and comes between 1st-3rd throughout the years. So Kiyoko is very well liked but because she is currently losing to his colleague's character it drives him mad with rage.

Point of order: Brienne isn't beating Kiyoko, at least on any official polls. Kiyoko won and by quite a bit.

As I mentioned before, I'm pretty sure the whole "Tobs wrote Brienne in a rape scene in a jealous rage" thing has no real weight behind it.

Pretty sure Tobs just wrote a "normal for Tobs" scene and Wsan didn't like it.

Tobs writing his own way without any real thought to matching the game's tone is 100% on brand for him anyway.

The whole thing has been a way bigger deal here than Wsan has ever made it seem.

 

[Walk Cycle]

Point of order: Brienne isn't beating Kiyoko, at least on any official polls. Kiyoko won and by quite a bit.

As I mentioned before, I'm pretty sure the whole "Tobs wrote Brienne in a rape scene in a jealous rage" thing has no real weight behind it.

Pretty sure Tobs just wrote a "normal for Tobs" scene and Wsan didn't like it.

Tobs writing his own way without any real thought to matching the game's tone is 100% on brand for him anyway.

The whole thing has been a way bigger deal here than Wsan has ever made it seem.

What I don't understand by that viewpoint is if Wsan didn't like it, why was it added? He's one of the dev leads (or at least the top commissioned writer correct me if I'm wrong) he should at least have some say over a scene about his character getting raped while the "champion" is forced to watch. Even if Tobs is in charge of the Hobgobs.

 

[Knightttt]

what are the safe levels of modded stats so I dont break the game?

 

[Skandranon]

What I don't understand by that viewpoint is if Wsan didn't like it, why was it added? He's one of the dev leads (or at least the top commissioned writer correct me if I'm wrong) he should at least have some say over a scene about his character getting raped while the "champion" is forced to watch. Even if Tobs is in charge of the Hobgobs.

Devs don't read each other's scenes all the time, theyve said this quite a bit. And Wsan is fine with Brienne being in loss scenes in general (or at least, he was, dunno if anything has changed).

My reading of the situation is Tobs probably just asked if he could do a scene with hobs and Brienne, Wsan was fine with it, Tobs went 100% full Tobs with it, someone actually mentioned the scenes content to Wsan a while later and Wsan probably realized "dammit, don't give edgelords happy fluffy characters" and resolved to be more discerning in the future.

 

[sluttica95]

alright if that's what you want.



the emotion is in the premise, the execution is another matter altogether and i'd rather not pretend any part of the game is exactly heart wrenching. choosing to save a life is, in a vacuum, more engaging than being forced to save your own skin.


and once again i think this comes down to her being the earliest designed character and thus the first to be fleshed out. she feels everywhere because she's the only one who has enough content to qualify a presence outside of events she's personally involved in. i don't see it as the game going out of its way to shove cait in, i see it as the game not giving other party members their due screentime. i don't see how talking shit about cait as a character contributes to solving this problem. to reiterate, much of it can be alleviated, with any luck, once the other party members get what they deserve, assuming savco is at least competent enough to do that much.

the point i'm wiling to step back on is to not have everyone else's reactions towards her be so enthusiastic on top of positive. while it makes sense for a literal prostitute enchantress to appeal to everyone, it's just not interesting. agni has taken steps to include more lukewarm reactions and hopefully that's more to the tone of what they plan for cait in the future.

if everyone is a mary sue, but cait is getting the brunt of the hate, then clearly being a mary sue isn't the root cause.



if your first reaction to a literal break in is to talk it out you're certainly a nobler and braver man than i. it is one thing if they were actually a village out in the open fully expecting traders and travellers, and another when it's a foreign colony deliberately hidden with magic and very much not expecting visits to even be possible. they have more in common with the orc tribe than with hawkethorne. with the tone of the game being what it is (sans gwyer quest) a scuffle isn't something i hold a grudge over and all this still rings to me as people being a little more sour than is warranted.

as for kinu, i'm again fine with not being treated like dad of the year. while i'm not satisfied with TOBS' execution i understand his approach. children resent their parents for all sorts of reasons and those reasons are often out of said parents' hands. i appreciate him trying to bring this bit of reality in even if it's in a silly porn game. if you want to claim to not want full control, but then complain about the only parts of her you don't have control over, you're suddenly a lot less convincing.

it's the same thing with her marriage. it makes sense for an outsider to not have a say in a semi-political arrangement, parent or not, and colder things fudalist japan have done for the sake of social hiearchy and tradition. TOBS was too preoccupied with injecting the historical influence to consider player reaction which makes the outrage justified, but the alternative would also be far less interesting.

there is an argument to be made regarding the lack of further input on kinu's development. unfortunate, but kitsune content is already extremely bloated for side content and i doubt family therapy is something the game is desperate for. as i see it, its absence is a valid piece of criticism but ultimately an inactionable one. it's more productive to point out how silly it was to give a single piece of side content that big of a scope and that it should probably be avoided in the future.


you forgot the impregnate part. sex is food, that's one thing, sure, but being allowed to knocking up one of their shrine maidens is not quite what i consider unwelcome. the NPCs are more than happy to explain to you their roles and their culture, and provide you with their service. i literally just went through the headpat ceremony yesterday so the part about kiyoko is provably wrong.

again i feel like i'm playing a different version of the game here. the MC is intergrated into kitsune society far more than the rest of the game world, considering it's literally a magically hidden tree house club, and where our outsider status do come into play it's not out of bigotry or dickishness. in nature it's once again akin to the orc tribes, which drives me to think TOBS' reputation plays a not insignificant role in how much criticism it recieves.


never occured to you the act of detachment includes changing the name?



to repeat myself: you are paying for their product, not their time or engagement. if an aspiring writer wishes to learn, they have resources dedicated to that made by people who aren't just qualified to create, but also qualified to teach. it's a waste of time on the student's part for banking on the uncertain byproducts of confronting creators with criticism, and a waste of time on the creators' part for indulging them. the potential usefulness you listed can just as well be gained by the creator sitting on a sidelines watching people discuss, argue and agree on points amongst themselves.

the answer to "why can't they just be nice and helpful" is "because being nice and helpful costs time and effort they don't owe you." there's a reason education isn't free. it's one thing for a creator to publish commentary on their own volition because they wish to do so, and another to demand a creator's commentary when they aren't open to giving it.

you said yourself the bar for what they do could not be any lower, yet here assumes they have valuable knowledge they could impart if they'd only explain. you'll forgive me if all this strikes me as a little insincere.

i still think there's miscommunication in this regard. confrontation is the key word here. it's not my intention to say the creator should not have to deal with criticism, only that they shouldn't be confronted directly about them. i have fully endorsed posting criticisms in forums and discussing it amongst ourselves, a.k.a what happens here, and have criticised them for responding to criticism that aren't confrontational. unless you're confronting the writers directly about your gripes this isn't about you.

pressuring people who aren't open to changing their minds can trigger knee-jerk defenses. which is referred to as back fire effects. they are the correct term for the specific effects at work as coined by Cook & Lewandowsky (2011). belief perseverance refers to the result and general topic of study. you'd know this if you read your way past the first sentence on wikipedia, put the term in google scholar, or just do a ctrl+f.

criticism is something that needs time to be weeded, digested and refined into something actionable, especially when they come from the general public.

this should not be so wild a claim to anyone who had worked with big projects. and yes, there also needs to be time for the creators to confront their own egos, i don't think it's reasonable to demand a proper artist to have no ego and be perfectly receptive to advice and critique, let alone for it to be even possible. if you genuinely do want the project to turn out as good as possible, you'd take this into account. and if you'd like to volunteer yourself as the exception, i envy your bliss.

as a consumer(piracy or no) you may feel you have the right to confront creators with criticism and recieve a reply in return, and given the right perspective you may very well do, but that does not change the fact that being pressured to perform this process in short order and coming up with a reply is less effective when it comes to actually improving the product. as it stands most creative teams perform this process internally in private and does not extend the critic a notification or explanation afterwards. for a good reason.

as a final note i'm under the impression that this is a discussion and not an argument, and a discussion is cooperative in nature. I expect people to meet me half way when it comes to surface level research as i will do for them when and if the need arises. if you don't intend to come off as abrasive then don't be abrasive, it's shockingly easy with written text.

Man, it's a shitty text porn game why do you guys type out the Iliad in the comment section. Learn a language or something

 

[M0nte]

I like how everyone treats Brienne getting raped as big deal while Brint is being thrown to the side.