Others Corruption of Champions II [v0.7.27] [Savin/Salamander Studios]

[jfmherokiller]

I want a mod that adds a big penny to the wayfort

 

[Orphanus]

However, after reading all these testimonials it strikes me as exceptionally odd that someone can become so narcissistic and egocentric over their writing, at least from a personal perspective. I've dabbled in writing over the years and am hopelessly unaware of how one can come to obsess over their own work in this manner.

Man, the shit I've written isn't good by any means, but if someone offers me genuine criticism I'm not going to turn it down and scream hysterics because of it.

To try and answer that question - as well as give a bit of perspective on why I am so negative about not the game as much as the lead writers - the problem stems from the Fenoxo Forums, I believe. As you maybe know Fenoxo (or Fen) is the guy who started it all back in the day with CoC 1 and then TiTS, basically a bit of a pioneer since CoC 1 arguably is the foundation of many games that try to create the lewd equivalent of a text based RPG of old. For obvious reasons he acquired quite the following, and since Savin has been on board since the early days as well he benefited a lot from the loyalty and admiration of Fen's fanbase.
I think for good reasons, Savin is a really good writer & a great writer of smut as well, so it is by no means that the man doesn't have talent or experience or just in general is clueless, quite the opposite. The Observer, too, has been with them for quite a long time & started out as definitely promising, with a genuine, appealing writing style and a certain knack for visualizing things through his choice of words.

The problems, in my eyes, began when Fen decided that he wouldn't be the lead of yet another project (even though it would have been the sequel to his original gem) because a. he had a lot to do with TiTS and b. had grown increasingly tired of writing smut over the years, therefore decided to be more of a hindrance for the sequel & also just not up to write things matching the standards of quality he had set for his games.
Making Savin the lead seemed pretty logical at that point in time & at first things worked out pretty well. The issues began to rose when TOBS was given free reign over whatever he wrote (as was Wsan, but Wsan at least writes stuff fitting for a CoC sequel, with choices to make and player control over their own character) and, when he began to loose his mind and create his completely own story inside the story (that then also did not at all connect with the rest of the game, only by forced interactions with basically random NPCs to simply try and justify that nonsense). Unsurprisingly TOBS was met with quite a bit of criticism by the players, and that's where things went down the drain.

See, since the Forums had existed for quite a while, and people really liked the games as well as the minds behind them, it turned out that the constant praise had inflated The Observer's ego to a point where he took any form of dislike of his - purposely derisive - content as a personal attack. To the point where he resorted to consciously write stuff he knew a vast majority would dislike, and he left no room for doubts that he did it just to piss people off. By that he then ruined his own content, causing basically 90% of the players to turn on him and his content.

That's where Savin made the fatal mistake of thinking that it was his job to protect his writers from negative feedback instead of diving into the issues and look for the root of the problems. I don't know if he actually thought it came out of basically nowhere & that TOBS was getting heat for no reason, or if he, deep down, knew who was at fault and just couldn't tell his old friend to get his act together. From there on it became basically impossible to voice criticism on the forums, either a bunch of zombie fans jumped anyone trying to voice his thoughts (even if it was in a polite manner and without going after any individual writer) and just claimed that the game was without any flaws or room for improvement, further cementing the by then pretty delusional impression of the lead writers that they are (as I wrote before) something like the Tolkiens and Martins of smut, or Savin himself (or guys like TOBS) deleted the criticism.

Nowadays there are, as others explained here before, clear double standards for what the lead writers do & what the other people can do, arbitrary rejection of content, a very clear maliciousness towards the players in general, with some of the writers writing stuff just because a majority of people hate it, the attempt to make the player character as irrelevant and weak as possible etc. pp.

It's actually just kinda pathetic and extremely childish, the typical product of people closing themselves in a bubble just to never hear anything negative about their work.

 

[Quintilus]

I think people tend to underestimate how hard it is to write branching stories where the reader basically influences the story that is told by their decision. In my personal opinion it's actually way harder to write something for a CYOA game than it is to just write a story by yourself. Add to that that it is also not that easy to write great smut when you aren't comparably literate and you end up with what you describe.

Depends...
In the 90-00, IIRC, there was a rise of CYOA books with...eh, relatively linear story. Like, first page was something like
you exit your home and go for a walk
go to page 11 if you want to visit park, or page 33 if you want to hang out with you homie pedro, or to page 114 if you want to yell on a cloud
While its, technically, CYOA its linear, in a sense that all 'decisions' that were 'made' (in story sense) on previous pages have already pre defined result on all following.

In videogame case it opens up lot more possibilities than simple "check page X", but it require from you knowledge of boring shit like programming and data structures.

 

[Orphanus]

Depends...
In the 90-00, IIRC, there was a rise of CYOA books with...eh, relatively linear story. Like, first page was something like
you exit your home and go for a walk
go to page 11 if you want to visit park, or page 33 if you want to hang out with you homie pedro, or to page 114 if you want to yell on a cloud
While its, technically, CYOA its linear, in a sense that all 'decisions' that were 'made' (in story sense) on previous pages have already pre defined result on all following.

In videogame case it opens up lot more possibilities than simple "check page X", but it require from you knowledge of boring shit like programming and data structures.

Yeah, fair enough, I remember those (e.g. something with searching for atlantis) but I was more thinking about either Choice of... Games in terms of functionality of choices (especially when looking at CoC 1 and TiTS) as well as the pretty dated text based games where you actually write stuff in the "console" to interact with the game.

 

[Quintilus]

most characters just don't have many choices besides sex scenes/dialogue fluff

What choices you expects to see there?

 

[only1%]

What is with the updates in this game because for a while now the updates seem to be little and about stuff that seems like no one cares about and it dosen't help that the content that we would like is either

A:Never being made in the first place (Ex: fucking gweyr,that mouse compainion that looks way better than that phoenix or getting that random witch in the forest as a compainon)

B:Seems like it's going to take a long time to be made while we keep getting crap(Ex:Brint/Brienne family content, that one minotaur that we can gender bend into a milf, that hot shortstack goblin milf/gilf that's been in the game seems for ever

 

[destroyerofassholes]

However, after reading all these testimonials it strikes me as exceptionally odd that someone can become so narcissistic and egocentric over their writing, at least from a personal perspective. I've dabbled in writing over the years and am hopelessly unaware of how one can come to obsess over their own work in this manner.

Man, the shit I've written isn't good by any means, but if someone offers me genuine criticism I'm not going to turn it down and scream hysterics because of it.

Brother, you have no idea. Often some chads will post snippets of the writers going apeshit on each other in their DC public chat, and it is ridiculous. One time Bubbles went absolutely crazy that nobody liked Quin, his companion in the game. Got clapped by his own coworkers.

Not exactly in a healthy mindset, the writers in general.

 

[destroyerofassholes]

Eh, might be just a difference of opinion on what constitutes "drama".



Well, I said "on the big policy decisions" specifically. They pretty much always back each other on that stuff.

I think Wsan is just mature enough to not air dirty laundry publicly. Even if there is drama which I assume there was, because there is constantly drama over there, Wsan is not the kind of guy to just let everyone know or argue in public chat. A tad bit more professional compared to the others.

So we have no way of knowing either way.

Also can it really be said that Tobs and Wsan had leadership input at the beginning of the game, when Tobs wasn't even a properly paid member of the team, doing shit for free? How'd he get to have managerial roles when there were other paid writers and he was a freebie...

Dude was literally on primadonna airs saying shit like getting paid would negatively affect his writing.

 

[Orphanus]

Brother, you have no idea. Often some chads will post snippets of the writers going apeshit on each other in their DC public chat, and it is ridiculous. One time Bubbles went absolutely crazy that nobody liked Quin, his companion in the game. Got clapped by his own coworkers.

Not exactly in a healthy mindset, the writers in general.

They are as toxic towards each other as they are towards their own customers. It's literally insane, like a parody about how to not run your company.

 

[destroyerofassholes]

Forgot the silly Cait "NTR" scene he wrote that seems biased towards his characters when compared to the "NTR" scenes where you're the one doing it. Not that I really care much about it, but I feel like it's worth mentioning since people obviously didn't like it when he posted he was doing that here. Funnily enough we haven't seen him since.

Eh. I think Fleep's an exceptional case where the dude just seems to be a stand-up guy but the content he makes is specifically the type of stuff F95 has a vendetta against. I personally don't give a shit, I'll just avoid it and move on, but eh. Nobody would like to be in a place where they see negative feedback, it's not his job and it's not like he gets paid for it or anything.

He'll always be in my good graces for actually answering my criticism against the two demons you can kill in the undermountain with a modicum of reciprocated respect.

 

[Walk Cycle]

Brother, you have no idea. Often some chads will post snippets of the writers going apeshit on each other in their DC public chat, and it is ridiculous. One time Bubbles went absolutely crazy that nobody liked Quin, his companion in the game. Got clapped by his own coworkers.

Not exactly in a healthy mindset, the writers in general.

Oh man, that BubbleLord meltdown was *chefs kiss*. Even Savin was asking BL to shut up. The entire argument started because BubbleLord was seething that people liked Berwyn more than Quint. Screenshots if anybody wants a refresher

 

[Orphanus]

Oh man, that BubbleLord meltdown was *chefs kiss*. Even Savin was asking BL to shut up. The entire argument started because BubbleLord was seething that people liked Berwyn more than Quint. Screenshots if anybody wants a refresher

The 2nd time around it's even more ridiculous than the first.

 

[Orphanus]

Eh. I think Fleep's an exceptional case where the dude just seems to be a stand-up guy but the content he makes is specifically the type of stuff F95 has a vendetta against. I personally don't give a shit, I'll just avoid it and move on, but eh. Nobody would like to be in a place where they see negative feedback, it's not his job and it's not like he gets paid for it or anything.

He'll always be in my good graces for actually answering my criticism against the two demons you can kill in the undermountain with a modicum of reciprocated respect.

I will say that personally I only ever experienced Savin as a friendly, passionate (for his project) guy who neither was bothered by me asking redundant questions, nor by me not being the biggest fan of certain aspects of how the protagonist is handled by parts of the game.

The thing is he is the lead Dev so he signs responsible for not reigning his team in when it comes to especially TOBS, as well as the story going nowhere, scenes becoming increasingly repetitive etc.

And I also saw him be quite nasty towards other people voicing criticism, even if they didn't all do it in a rude manner.

Edit: What I wanted to say with this is a. I totally back you differentiating and not trash talking each and every writer and instead going by your personal experiences with in that case Fleep.
b. I don't have anything against Savin on a personal level at all, I just think he isn't ready to take the responsibility of being the lead of a project like CoC 2 and also that he seems to struggle to act professionally towards the playerbase at times.

 

[Walk Cycle]

Digging up those BubbleLord meltdown screenshots made me try and find other screenshots of Savin and Co. acting like dicks or the other devs reacting to shittery. But so far no luck.

So far I remember: Savin acting nonchalant on how Wsan didn't allow him to write a scene on Brienne (it was Brienne x Arona I think?) but coming off like a spoiled brat being denied his treats. S

Tobs saying writing non-porn scenes (Lore etc.) is a privilege for lead devs, something that he seems to have abused thoroughly.

Wsan eerily saying that he will keep his characters under lock and key and on close supervision. Days after Brienne X Hobgoblin defeat scene was released. S

Bubs saying that unless you're subscribed to his Patreon any opinion you have on his writing is completely invalid. Also while deflecting any opinion and criticism about his Companion character Quint, sprinkling small amounts of Berwyn hate inbetween (different from the post above). S

Tobs reacting to community pushback on how the Kitsune, but more pointedly Kiyoko/Kinu are handled, pretty much saying that his lore is just 2deep4u. S


If anybody has any screenshots about these (or more) it would be greatly appreciated. I'd like to save them and have a giggle from time to time.

 

[Shiro15]

Personally I love the idea of what the game could have been but not what CuckCo did with it. And Coc1 is objectively better just because player agency.

I started with Coc2 and thought it was interesting. And I agree my main gripe with CoC2 is the game imo should be better than CoC1, but it is not. It is completely miss managed and feels like a compilation of furry fan fiction. I'd rather play CoC1 over it because the player does feel like the hero or villian, and not a side character in their own story. At this point I prefer TiTS more than CoC2, because despite all the futas there is at least something I can enjoy, (mostly Paige and Domming Sera after dedicking her. Wish she had a dedicked art work though.)

 

[Skandranon]

so i looked at your unoffical list in your sig and saw:


this interests me as well as the additional lyric content but as far as my own datamining can come up with I dont see anything about it.

Well most of it is gleaned from the Discorda, which can be a bit rough to search.

B has been working on the genie for a few years now. It's a free project he bangs online between commissions for both CoC2 and TiTs, so it's moving pretty slowly.

Iirc originally she was one of his ideas for the companion slot, but he chose Agni instead, but he still wants to make her so she'll be a pseudo-companion like Lyric.

The Lyric thing hr hasn't mentioned a lot since, but originally there were going to be ways to feed Lyric things that would have different reactions, most notably a height change. He's referenced "tall Lyric" a few times since then. It's still on the docket, but again, waaay far down.

 

[Shiro15]

Wsan is part of the leadership of the game.
Savin, Tobs, and Wsan were basically the first three on the project, and from everything I've seen they're all basically in lock-step and consult together when it comes to the big policy decisions.

I know everyone here loves Wsans writing, but any decision or policy by the team that's been made that seems stupid or backwards - Wsan probably was one of the ones that helped make it.

I don't particularly like Wsan's writing. It's just so unoffensive there is really nothing to say about it. Wsan's characters lack an arc. Brienne is just immediately okay with the changes to he body. She does voice some concerns but never really struggles. Brin is tolerable because they don't cuck you...well Brinne has yet to cuck/NTR the player. Every character in this game has a scene where they want to be romantically involved with someone else. Like Why is the play character even here if all you companions seem to be willing to date someone and use you as side piece. It makes it hard to get attached to someone when they don't seem to care what happens to you. Which oddly enough is why Kas and Arona seem to be getting a lot of love lately. As Sub Arona in some of her later scenes seems to change to the point where she actually cares about the player. And Kas despite being a psycho has this whole I want to be a mommy and have PC's babies. The fact that the option to redeem her gives the player a reason to be invested in her imo.

 

[destroyerofassholes]

Well most of it is gleaned from the Discorda, which can be a bit rough to search.

B has been working on the genie for a few years now. It's a free project he bangs online between commissions for both CoC2 and TiTs, so it's moving pretty slowly.

Iirc originally she was one of his ideas for the companion slot, but he chose Agni instead, but he still wants to make her so she'll be a pseudo-companion like Lyric.

The Lyric thing hr hasn't mentioned a lot since, but originally there were going to be ways to feed Lyric things that would have different reactions, most notably a height change. He's referenced "tall Lyric" a few times since then. It's still on the docket, but again, waaay far down.

Thanks for bothering with that list by the way. It's quite useful.

 

[Orphanus]

I don't particularly like Wsan's writing. It's just so unoffensive there is really nothing to say about it. Wsan's characters lack an arc. Brienne is just immediately okay with the changes to he body. She does voice some concerns but never really struggles. Brin is tolerable because they don't cuck you...well Brinne has yet to cuck/NTR the player. Every character in this game has a scene where they want to be romantically involved with someone else. Like Why is the play character even here if all you companions seem to be willing to date someone and use you as side piece. It makes it hard to get attached to someone when they don't seem to care what happens to you. Which oddly enough is why Kas and Arona seem to be getting a lot of love lately. As Sub Arona in some of her later scenes seems to change to the point where she actually cares about the player. And Kas despite being a psycho has this whole I want to be a mommy and have PC's babies. The fact that the option to redeem her gives the player a reason to be invested in her imo.

Worst example of that to me is Azyrran and the complete out of nowhere nonsense with the Paladin lady. And then the explanation "she saved her hive yadayadayada" when the character actually did basically nothing at all, the player did everything, at the end even gets "betrayed" by Azyrran in the final fight & as a reward the relationship between the protag and her is randomly ruined. AND to top it of the player is expected to act as their matchmaker. Pure, unadulterated insanity. It's so dumb it's funny.

 

[Skandranon]

I don't particularly like Wsan's writing. It's just so unoffensive there is really nothing to say about it. Wsan's characters lack an arc. Brienne is just immediately okay with the changes to he body. She does voice some concerns but never really struggles.

I pretty much feel the same about Brienne.

I've said it before, but I think Wsans best area is just that he's great at writing sex scenes. A large amount of his characters are sex obsessed for varying reasons and don't have much characterization beyond that (though he is also good at showing characterization through sex).

Of course; being good at sex scenes in a porn games is a pretty strong advantage which is why he's probably either my favorite or second favorite writer (William might be my favorite).

Thanks for bothering with that list by the way. It's quite useful.

No problem.

I should really keep it updated, haven't tweaked it in months.