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Olivia_V

Active Member
Jun 5, 2017
838
1,430
Having played the first chapter, I'm liking the story and where it could be heading. My chief criticism would be that the 1 GB is deceptive. There isn't 1 GB worth of story in there. A lot of it is unnecessary padding, much like that which plagued the first releases of " A Wife and Mother". What could be typically told in one slide gets stretched to three, multiplying exponentially. The use of sounds is a bold choice, but should be done with great care. (Dev can ditch or alter the score, it's not really helping the emotion of the story beats very much.)

Also...

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Deleted member 2030943

Active Member
Feb 16, 2020
532
860
Having played the first chapter, I'm liking the story and where it could be heading. My chief criticism would be that the 1 GB is deceptive. There isn't 1 GB worth of story in there. A lot of it is unnecessary padding, much like that which plagued the first releases of " A Wife and Mother". What could be typically told in one slide gets stretched to three, multiplying exponentially. The use of sounds is a bold choice, but should be done with great care. (Dev can ditch or alter the score, it's not really helping the emotion of the story beats very much.)

Also...

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I agree with your spoiler.

Other than that I enjoyed this very much and will be keeping an eye on it. Good luck dev team :)
 

yihman1

Knockout Master
May 11, 2017
3,109
10,943
A wee comment or two. First, the game seems promising and I, for the most part, like the philosophies you elucidate at the beginning. With the plethora of harem/school/silly HS 'he said, she said' games out there, this is a welcome change of pace.

I will nitpick just a bit, though... Although I applaud your efforts at including audio and sound effects, I would caution against having BGM playing at all times. The music should evoke feelings or emotions that correspond to the message or story. Constant BGM dulls hearing after a while and becomes ineffectual, even grating. Choose the clips wisely and play them sparingly and the results will be positive. Same goes for the audio effects you're using. Several are recorded too hot (-12db should be the target), although I've noticed many of these Ren'py games have audio problems so I'm not exactly sure where the fault lies. Some effects you've employed also sound a bit silly and detract from the scene. Again, be selective and use them wisely.

Oh...and a bit of minutiae. The MC would have to be older than 27 to have an MD in psychiatry. Even older if she had another PhD and a concentration in Neurology. Four years of undergrad (three possible but not common), four years of med school, four years of residency, another one or two years of a fellowship, or, another one to three years for a fellowship in neurology. Anyway, the MC would be 30 at the very least. Not a big deal, but still..... ;) 30 likely sounds ancient for most folks playing these games, but for me it was a long time ago.

Looking forward to more...
I agree that our audio could definitely use some improvement. That unfortunately is an austerity measure that needs to be taken for the time being. We can't afford to purchase high quality audio stuff when other expensive visual assets are needed for development. We have been using free open source stuff in that regard.

As for Rose needing to be older to have two PhD's... She was lifting over twice her weight over her head at the Gym too. That would put her on par with a top olympic athlete on top of her impressive academic accomplishments. You are correct in asserting that most people who have not one but two PhD would indeed be older than the age of 27. However, it is not impossible. Keep in mind she is very intelligent, highly motivated, had millions of dollars (so no need for a job), and kept away from all romantic entanglements and many social ones during her time getting educated.

If she were a character in a game like Being a Dik for instance she would not have gone to any of the parties. She would have been the background egg head that doesn't even get a speaking part.
 

yihman1

Knockout Master
May 11, 2017
3,109
10,943
Having played the first chapter, I'm liking the story and where it could be heading. My chief criticism would be that the 1 GB is deceptive. There isn't 1 GB worth of story in there. A lot of it is unnecessary padding, much like that which plagued the first releases of " A Wife and Mother". What could be typically told in one slide gets stretched to three, multiplying exponentially. The use of sounds is a bold choice, but should be done with great care. (Dev can ditch or alter the score, it's not really helping the emotion of the story beats very much.)

Also...

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If you criticize our game for being like AWAM in terms of being heavily padded, as in the story could unfold much quicker with less text and images. It's like you were trying to be a dick, but I took that as one of the greatest compliments we have gotten so far. Thanks for that, because we are shooting for exactly what you complained about. That's not a bug it's a feature. The reason for this is to make the characters feel more real and three dimensional.

As for the lesbian lock in. Who said it's locked in at that point? There are 22 independent variables being juggled up in the air as of the end of day 1. Even if a player has avoided 100% of the dick at this point in the game going pure lesbian 100% additional options for "Would you like some dick?" are still going to be offered down the road. Lesbians get offered dick all the time just like any other woman would.
 

yihman1

Knockout Master
May 11, 2017
3,109
10,943
Any chance of an Android port? I'm not at my desktop during the Christmas break, but would like to check this out.

If all goes well I might even be able to make some fan art when I get back home. Since I already do AWAM fan art, I may even be able to combine the two
Is there any chance to android version??
There's no unofficial android port for this one yet?
I was waiting for someone else to do that who is an expert at it, I have never made an android port myself nor has sin. If nobody does one within a few days I'll try to figure that out and do one myself.
 
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Rosen King

Engaged Member
May 29, 2019
2,258
1,744
So I see a mind control tag, but no indication in the description or any of the posts about what role it has. Can someone help me out here?
 
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Olivia_V

Active Member
Jun 5, 2017
838
1,430
If you criticize our game for being like AWAM in terms of being heavily padded, as in the story could unfold much quicker with less text and images. It's like you were trying to be a dick, but I took that as one of the greatest compliments we have gotten so far. Thanks for that, because we are shooting for exactly what you complained about. That's not a bug it's a feature. The reason for this is to make the characters feel more real and three dimensional.
I'm not trying to put your game down as I do like what I'm seeing so far, and I can see the creator's appeal in AWAM style padding (it's almost masturbatory in creative indulgence), but believe me, the padding adds no dimensionality to the characters. Needing five shots of Alice bent over looking for a towel tells us nothing more about Alice than the money shot already did, for example. Plus, the excessive cutting, especially in between indulgent shots of the same moment, is tiring on the eyes. There's a reason Snyder got laughed out of the building when he tried that with the Leonidas love scene in "300". All the same legitimate criticisms that AWAM received for its excessive padding applies here. If you want a much better example of making your characters look real and multidimensional, with an efficient use of shots, try giving the abandoned "High Life" a go. That one episode is a masterclass in Renpy storytelling.

Furthermore, and this is another reason why Lust and Passion had to trim down his padding, is that unless you have a rendering supercomputer, this will unnecessarily increase your time and labor cost. This will be magnified when you have to pay off all those storyline paths your setting up. Not to mention, once your file size starts exceeding AAA game file sizes (L&P took a lot of shit when his game projected to be bigger in file size than Life is Strange at only half his story completion) without the obvious AAA quality, the disconnect will be jarring.

As for the lesbian lock in. Who said it's locked in at that point? There are 22 independent variables being juggled up in the air as of the end of day 1. Even if a player has avoided 100% of the dick at this point in the game going pure lesbian 100% additional options for "Would you like some dick?" are still going to be offered down the road. Lesbians get offered dick all the time just like any other woman would.
The point isn't that it's locked in (my fault for framing it that way, I guess), but that a moment like that occurs so early and inorganically. A moment like that (coming out to friends) should be an emotional pay-off / milestone for a player making lesbian, or mostly lesbian, choices for the character throughout the course of the game up until that point. It's way too early for that to seem meaningful. Especially since the protagonist is starting out fairly prudish and conservative. Also, if she keeps getting "offered dick" after making an announcement like that, she had better be as irritated as any lesbian would be.
 
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wokaoa006

Member
Sep 5, 2017
189
73
So I see a mind control tag, but no indication in the description or any of the posts about what role it has. Can someone help me out here?
 

phupdup

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2019
1,391
1,105
I agree with the others here about imposing too many forks and showing menu options based on one variable day1morninghj. I ended up following your script.rpy in emacs the second time I played through since your vn had explicitly asked whether to enable trans content but only shows it based on the choice of a simple act that was nowhere near the plot point. Also it decides rather abruptly whether to allow the MC to break the rules about teacher-student relationships and have her question her sexuality at the gym or not? Yet it has no effect when MC decides to comfort her friend in the shower and ends up doing a little ass grabbing. What if the reader wants Rose to be Bi and a swinger who likes her sausage in the morning and a little tranny fluid on her pizza in the evening?
 
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yihman1

Knockout Master
May 11, 2017
3,109
10,943
I'm not trying to put your game down as I do like what I'm seeing so far, and I can see the creator's appeal in AWAM style padding (it's almost masturbatory in creative indulgence), but believe me, the padding adds no dimensionality to the characters. Needing five shots of Alice bent over looking for a towel tells us nothing more about Alice than the money shot already did, for example. Plus, the excessive cutting, especially in between indulgent shots of the same moment, is tiring on the eyes. There's a reason Snyder got laughed out of the building when he tried that with the Leonidas love scene in "300". All the same legitimate criticisms that AWAM received for its excessive padding applies here. If you want a much better example of making your characters look real and multidimensional, with an efficient use of shots, try giving the abandoned "High Life" a go. That one episode is a masterclass in Renpy storytelling.

Furthermore, and this is another reason why Lust and Passion had to trim down his padding, is that unless you have a rendering supercomputer, this will unnecessarily increase your time and labor cost. This will be magnified when you have to pay off all those storyline paths your setting up. Not to mention, once your file size starts exceeding AAA game file sizes (L&P took a lot of shit when his game projected to be bigger in file size than Life is Strange at only half his story completion) without the obvious AAA quality, the disconnect will be jarring.



The point isn't that it's locked in (my fault for framing it that way, I guess), but that a moment like that occurs so early and inorganically. A moment like that (coming out to friends) should be an emotional pay-off / milestone for a player making lesbian, or mostly lesbian, choices for the character throughout the course of the game up until that point. It's way too early for that to seem meaningful. Especially since the protagonist is starting out fairly prudish and conservative. Also, if she keeps getting "offered dick" after making an announcement like that, she had better be as irritated as any lesbian would be.
You get a 2 part reply.
####Part 1####

[Us compared to AAA games]

It's nice to be compared to the big boys that make AAA games, but we are not exactly Electronic Arts here. EA has like $5 Billion in annual revenues and 9,300 employees. They got pay to win with loot boxes. It's like comparing our lemonade stand to Walmart. We got just 2 guys that haven't made a penny in profits that work for free or at the moment actually at a loss in opportunity loss, assets, electricity ect. (I was up late at night coding on Christmas Eve for like 12 hours into the morning to make sure that we could release on Christmas. Because a Christmas release was our internal target.) In military terms it's like a couple of spartan warriors up against a modern army division that has tanks, drones, helicopters, and can call in airstrikes. If we went to war with EA we are Bambi and they are Godzilla we are under no delusion of it being anything different, but still we fight our battle for our fair share of our piece of the pie our current goal is just to break even.

Our game will always be free to play. I know times are tough out there, but if just 1 in 1,000 people who enjoy our game generously helps us out with just $1 a month we can hit our current goal happily. We are artists first, and business people second. As Miss Thornberg so eloquently put it in our game when she is talking about love and money. We are working on love right now and not a whole lot of money.

I have played "High Life" and I loved that game. It's a shame it became abandoned. That bad boy is #2 on my favorite abandoned games list right after "My Sweet Neighbors". The bronze medal there for me goes to a tie between "Primal Instinct", and "Our Fate". All great games. It sucks these got abandoned.


####Part 2####

[Our Process]

As for when you say that sometimes we will have more renders than the dialogue calls for. That is a logistics problem we are handling as well as we can. I'll explain a little bit about our process to you. I (Frank) am the writer, and Chris (SinAppeal) is the render side. If we had to go off of my renders and off of Chris' writing people would be laughing at our game. He can't write, and I can't render, but the opposite is true. Between the two of us we got 1 person who can write, 1 person 1 can render, and 2 people that can kinda code and 2 people who can photoshop. If you have ever seen the 1989 film "See No Evil, Hear No Evil" film (Great movie btw) that's us. It's like a Blind Guy and a Deaf Guy teaming up to have all of the senses. We are doing the best we can with what we got.


When the time comes for us to make a new scene it has various steps. I'll go through this step by step.
(There is still some general outlining and mundane details I'm going to leave out, but this gives you a good idea of what we do.)

Step 1: "World Building" This is mostly just gathering assets and the physical building of characters. I help find some of what we need, but Chris is more the visual guy in that department, but we work together on this. If we see an asset out there that we like and want for a scene we get it and Chris sometimes makes minor modifications to character models so it's not always an out of the box asset and it has a little bit of originality to it. This is not always the case though sometimes we just use stuff out of the box usualyl more so for for objects all of our characters have been morphed to some degree. I may have him render a character in a certain way a simple shot that will get a thumbs up or thumbs down for a person I will write for, and there we go we got a new person for the game or a new scene or new object. The form that I get to see visually sometimes is not fully rendered it's more so a "Pre Render" version. If the "Pre Render" is good I say go ahead for a lone render on a new character to see what they look like.

Step 2: "Visualizing" I write the scene out descriptively as possible, but just visually. At the top of the page I will put what characters I need, if they need any special modifications (Such as alice's black eye). What they are wearing. What set we are using. This is all under the assumption we have the set and characters made already which is a whole 2nd process. I will go render by render at this scene and describe what each character is doing, what expression they are making, where the camera is angled, what level of lighting / time of day. and so on. (A funny story about this. During the gym locker room scene a single render had Rose putting her hands up with two peace signs that looked like Richard Nixon. I laughed, but we kept it and that's how she got her last name.)

Step 3: The ball has been passed over to Chris. It's on him to work his render magic. He has to do all of his visual stuff from here. He builds the scene out, but doesn't render it yet however he comes back to me with some pre renders. If I see a problem with the pre renders I say "no no, like this" and we may pass it back and forth until it is how it's needed.

Step 4: I pass the game script over to Chris. He puts the newly created renders in. By putting the renders in I mean he puts them in like this:

scene image1
"1"

scene image2
"2"

scene image3
"3"

and so on. He tries to get them in the right order, and in the best order possible.

Step 5: The renders are now in. However there was supposed to be a menu, and variables. I add the menu and variables. I play the scene out physically playing the game with just "1" "2" "3" as the text of the newly added scene. Sometimes the renders are in the wrong order. I re order them. If It's a 3 frame animation I write the animation script and put that in. Then I test the various speeds of the animation a few times to get it looking right then ask chris "Hey this look good?" he is like "No it's suck try again" so I try again :D then eventually get it right. Now we got the scene built minus the dialogue. I look at each image and the sequence of images. I write dialogue that fits as best as possible. Pass it over to chris "How does this sound?" We now got a rough draft of the scene.

Step 6: I check the spelling and grammar. Sometimes I find new words and think up a possible joke to put in. Sometimes the scene did not come how I wanted so I wipe the slate and start again. Back down to step 5 repeat if necessary. Back on step 6 now. I write the writing in as good as I can and fix all the mistakes and got it polished up and as well written as possible. Chris will sometimes add some SFX or music to the scene. Then we got a new scene ready for showtime.

Step 7: We are now 2 or 3 scenes later. Got a new idea. The original foreshadowing doesn't add up. So go back and change that so it does.

During this process sometime we are left with some extra renders than what was needed. If it is an instance of say 1 naked person in the bathroom looking around like "Where is the towel?" adding a mountain of internal dialogue on top of that is sometimes too much. Sometimes when the writing is done I have as much as 120% of the renders needed to fit the story fully. Other times I only have 80% so I go back and poke my render buddy "Hey render this I need it!" Usually (90% of the time) I get what I need, sometimes it just can't be done and I gotta work with what was already made. I'm not going to hit the nail on the head every time. I try to under shoot more than over shoot the writing but sometimes I over shoot.

If you see many lines of dialogue on few render = I under shot and it feels a little light on renders temporarily.
If you see few lines of dialogue on many render = I over shot and you get bonus renders when you play.
 
Last edited:

yihman1

Knockout Master
May 11, 2017
3,109
10,943
I agree with the others here about imposing too many forks and showing menu options based on one variable day1morninghj. I ended up following your script.rpy in emacs the second time I played through since your vn had explicitly asked whether to enable trans content but only shows it based on the choice of a simple act that was nowhere near the plot point. Also it decides rather abruptly whether to allow the MC to break the rules about teacher-student relationships and have her question her sexuality at the gym or not? Yet it has no effect when MC decides to comfort her friend in the shower and ends up doing a little ass grabbing. What if the reader wants Rose to be Bi and a swinger who likes her sausage in the morning and a little tranny fluid on her pizza in the evening?
Just because a player touches a penis it does not mean they will never again get to see a vagina.
Just because a player touches a vagina it does not mean they will never again get to see a penis.

Sometimes choices will lead the player to one of 2 or more scenes.

If for instance I write that "Mark has gotten a cold" I may allow the player the choice to stay home and take care of the sick boyfriend. That would be a whole scene the guy is sick he gets breakfast in bed and pampered all day and you watch a movie with him that whole scene spending quality time with a sick mark.

Inversely perhaps at that same very moment that Mark is sick maybe something else is going on. Maybe Lucy can't get her dad to give her a ride to the mall. Do I go give lucy and her friends a ride to the mall or do I stay home with the sick Mark? It's written how it is for a reason.

Sometimes things will be abrupt and a surprise. For instance it was rather abrupt to some that she questioned her sexuality at the gym. Keep in mind she had an opportunity to get sexual with her fiance only a few hours early in the day and passed it up. Why should she pass that up? Maybe she not physically attracted to him? This is what I call "subtext". It's written in a way where it's not spoonfed to the player and they must fill in that gap them self. Some players missed that subtext here. It was subtle, but it was there.

Other times I have blatantly obvious "foreshadowing". Someone correctly predicted that Rose is going to an animal research lab. Obvious clues to that were left for the players to find. I wanted people to think that. However, other details have been left out intentionally. Anyone care to guess what animal will be rescued?
 

lilyxxnaive

New Member
Dec 25, 2020
1
6
I played the whole chapter in one breath and had to do it again and again to find all the possibility scenery.
The story was so good and i really loved all the character, they are so well made. Compliments for this game, one of the best and i look forward to see the chapter 2!
 

yihman1

Knockout Master
May 11, 2017
3,109
10,943
So I see a mind control tag, but no indication in the description or any of the posts about what role it has. Can someone help me out here?
So I see a mind control tag, but no indication in the description or any of the posts about what role it has. Can someone help me out here?
There are various incidents in the game that could be considered "Mind Control". One example would be the Coomer-19 virus itself. It puts a person into an altered state where the pretty much must masturbate.
 

yihman1

Knockout Master
May 11, 2017
3,109
10,943
If you downloaded the game on day 1 of release there was a minor bug that we have found, and we have fixed it in the script, and here is a copy of the fixed script and the 3 missing renders to insert into the game to no longer get the message. We will fix the OP download link version soon, but it's not fixed yet.

The script file replaces the one in the game. The 3 images go into the image folder.
 
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