[Discussion] BDSM in Adult games and in general!

[Furuichi Imadori]

No problem, but mine is a horse strapon

So what did you want to talk about Ele?

Gosh, I'm not a connoisseur in the strapon category. Eleanor my Dominatrix Angel :angel: I made a mistake, please punish me :evilsmile:!
Eleanor, don't go near @GhostPhil, he wants to make you some disgusting things on a mattress, tell him you're not interested, ok sweetie?

Tell him to play with his new toy.

Your dear to us We want your happiness:evilsmile:

Your Christmas present in advance.

 

[Segnbora]

In a game thread somewhere — I don't remember which one — I was actually wondering if one of the reasons we don't see more BDSM and kink in games is because DAZ, etc. is unsuitable for representing a lot of it.

There are certain things that can be shown pretty easily...fetish wear, bondage/restraint (at least in theory; more often than not, it's very poorly done...something like sagging/loose shibari achieves the opposite of the effect it's going for), watersports, gags/plugs/insertions of all types, clamps/clips...basically, anything static.

Power exchange is hard because it has to be carried by the text, which takes away the advantage that visual representation usually has. You can show someone kneeling, bowing their head, looking down, towering over, raising an arm, putting a foot on a neck, choking, etc., but you can't really get at the more important emotional side of it without the text. Or, at least, almost no one's done so successfully.

But it's anything involving motion where the art almost always fails. I've yet to see a convincing spanking scene, even though I've seen a lot of them. Other flavors of impact play are incredibly rare, and I've never seen them done well. Part of that is because the animations are arduous and still end up looking unrealistic, and part of that is because you so rarely see the results; if, in scene 2a, the MC uses a cane on someone's ass, then in scene 2a and 2b there should be marks. There never are. A few games have attempted a post-spanking red glow, but that never lasts either. I understand the difficulty this causes if the dev wants to offer the player an opportunity to skip the caning, or spanking, or whatever, but I'm really surprised that some kinky dev hasn't gone ahead and written a forced BDSM VN in which all the real-world effects are included.

I also think the facial expression options might be insufficient. The sort of humilition/domination/pain/pleasure/pleasure-from-pain subtleties don't usually come across, or at least I haven't seen them done well yet.

Weirdly, I think BDSM in general is depicted much better in comics...perhaps because there are line-drawing techniques for indicating motion and facial subtleties are easier to manipulate. Which makes me think that a game using that art style (like GGGB) would actually have an easier time depicting BDSM than a game using DAZ.

Idle musing, and I can't prove any of it, but it's interesting to think about.

 

[GhostPhil]

Gosh, I'm not a connoisseur in the strapon category. Eleanor my Dominatrix Angel :angel: I made a mistake, please punish me :evilsmile:!
Eleanor, don't go near @GhostPhil, he wants to make you some disgusting things on a mattress, tell him you're not interested, ok sweetie?

Tell him to play with his new toy.
View attachment 173691


Your Christmas present in advance.

View attachment 173708

Well she definitely has a third leg x'Dx'D
And I let Ele be a dominatrix by my side :biggrin:

 

[GhostPhil]

In a game thread somewhere — I don't remember which one — I was actually wondering if one of the reasons we don't see more BDSM and kink in games is because DAZ, etc. is unsuitable for representing a lot of it.

There are certain things that can be shown pretty easily...fetish wear, bondage/restraint (at least in theory; more often than not, it's very poorly done...something like sagging/loose shibari achieves the opposite of the effect it's going for), watersports, gags/plugs/insertions of all types, clamps/clips...basically, anything static.

Power exchange is hard because it has to be carried by the text, which takes away the advantage that visual representation usually has. You can show someone kneeling, bowing their head, looking down, towering over, raising an arm, putting a foot on a neck, choking, etc., but you can't really get at the equally important emotional side of it without the text. Or, at lest, almost no one's done so successfully.

But it's anything involving motion where the art almost always fails. I've yet to see a convincing spanking scene, even though I've seen a lot of them. Other flavors of impact play are rare, and I've never seen them done well. Part of that is because the animations are arduous and still end up looking unrealistic, and part of that is because you so rarely see the results; if, in scene 2a, the MC uses a cane on someone's ass, then in scene 2a and 2b there should be marks. There never are. I understand the difficulty this causes if the dev wants to offer the player an opportunity to skip the caning, but I'm really surprised that some kinky dev hasn't gone ahead and written a forced BDSM VN in which all the real-world effects are included.

I also think the facial expression options might be insufficient. The sort of humilition/domination/pain/pleasure/pleasure-from-pain subtleties don't usually come across, or at least I haven't seen them done well yet.

Weirdly, I think BDSM in general is depicted much better in comics...perhaps because there are line-drawing techniques for indicating motion and facial subtleties are easier to manipulate. Which makes me think that a game using that art style (like GGGB) would actually have an easier time depicting BDSM than a game using DAZ.

Idle musing, and I can't prove any of it, but it's interesting to think about.

I really want to answer this right now, but sadly I don't have the time now :'(

 

[Abîme]

Your Christmas present in advance.

Thanks I'm ready
:evilsmile:

 

[Furuichi Imadori]

Thanks I'm ready
View attachment 173718 :evilsmile:

Don't worry, it was for your big mouth

 

[Abîme]

Don't worry, it was for your big mouth

No, I'm ready
:biggrin:

 

[trdx]

Voted for 3rd option, although I'll admit I've never tried most of the stuff BDSM practitioners do. I don't like... stuff. Special clothing, gadgets, food... Just bodies. I don't like causing pain or pain being caused either. At least to people I care about. If I were into BDSM I'd definitely be a switch. I think I'd find permanent roles boring. I like both, maledom and femdom and I wish more games had the latter. The fact that I like femdom (and actually prefer it), came as a surprise to me.

 

[Segnbora]

I really want to answer this right now, but sadly I don't have the time now :'(

Well, when you have time I'd be interested.

 

[GhostPhil]

A new appreciation thread has risen from the ashes!
This time it isn't about character types, it is rather about scenes in adult games.
This specially is about extreme/ hardcore fetishes in games, so beware of content like urination, etc...

Spoiler: Beware

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

I bet there will be more threads to follow. I have some in mind as well

 

[215303j]

In some cases, I could see the desire to hurt someone (even to the point that it may be arousing), however I have real difficulty with the consentual part of BDSM. The BDSM being consentual implies that the dom really has to hold back and that the sub is actually in control, in a way. At least that's my understanding how it works. I have no experience with it myself, but what I've seen, it seems rather weak.

I could, theoretically, see a game about really brutal stuff. Like body modification, amputation and snuff. This may be very distasteful, but at least in a game no real person gets hurt and you are still able to experiment somewhat. However I really doubt that I would actually play such a game though.

 

[GhostPhil]

In a game thread somewhere — I don't remember which one — I was actually wondering if one of the reasons we don't see more BDSM and kink in games is because DAZ, etc. is unsuitable for representing a lot of it.
That might be a reason, but on the other hand I think it is only limited by the assets that are made by someone. I mean on Renderotica is quite a lot of BDSM themed stuff, but I never really see it in games, only in 3DCG Comics. So the possibilities are there, but not used.

There are certain things that can be shown pretty easily...fetish wear, bondage/restraint (at least in theory; more often than not, it's very poorly done...something like sagging/loose shibari achieves the opposite of the effect it's going for), watersports, gags/plugs/insertions of all types, clamps/clips...basically, anything static.

I agree with you, but as I said above. There are acutally some things available, but they aren't really used. But on the other hand there are so many more BDSM tools out there...

Power exchange is hard because it has to be carried by the text, which takes away the advantage that visual representation usually has. You can show someone kneeling, bowing their head, looking down, towering over, raising an arm, putting a foot on a neck, choking, etc., but you can't really get at the more important emotional side of it without the text. Or, at least, almost no one's done so successfully.

Well you can actually use text with some static pictures quite well, the problem is that the text needs to be written really good so you can feel the power exchange in the scene. But there are some games that do this on a more vanilla level quite good. But I have to say that it is easier to show this with text only than with a mix of both.

But it's anything involving motion where the art almost always fails. I've yet to see a convincing spanking scene, even though I've seen a lot of them. Other flavors of impact play are incredibly rare, and I've never seen them done well. Part of that is because the animations are arduous and still end up looking unrealistic, and part of that is because you so rarely see the results; if, in scene 2a, the MC uses a cane on someone's ass, then in scene 2a and 2b there should be marks. There never are. A few games have attempted a post-spanking red glow, but that never lasts either. I understand the difficulty this causes if the dev wants to offer the player an opportunity to skip the caning, or spanking, or whatever, but I'm really surprised that some kinky dev hasn't gone ahead and written a forced BDSM VN in which all the real-world effects are included.

Yeah the spanking scenes are a joke. Always really fast and you don't see the ass getting red. It doesn't even need to be animated, but it should show at least something... And I don't even talk about something like caning...
Well I am at least thinking about doing a game solely focused on BDSM, but well first I have to learn using Daz Studio and Ren'Py But you can look at my thread that is linked in my signature

I also think the facial expression options might be insufficient. The sort of humilition/domination/pain/pleasure/pleasure-from-pain subtleties don't usually come across, or at least I haven't seen them done well yet.

I have to say there are really a lot of facial expressions out there, especially on Renderotica. The problem is that they aren't used properly...

Weirdly, I think BDSM in general is depicted much better in comics...perhaps because there are line-drawing techniques for indicating motion and facial subtleties are easier to manipulate. Which makes me think that a game using that art style (like GGGB) would actually have an easier time depicting BDSM than a game using DAZ.

Idle musing, and I can't prove any of it, but it's interesting to think about.

Do you know the Comic Sunstone? That Comic pictures BDSM really really good in my opinion. And it has incredible facial expressions. And I have to say I would love to see a Visual Novel by that Comic Artist

 

[GhostPhil]

In some cases, I could see the desire to hurt someone (even to the point that it may be arousing), however I have real difficulty with the consentual part of BDSM. The BDSM being consentual implies that the dom really has to hold back and that the sub is actually in control, in a way. At least that's my understanding how it works. I have no experience with it myself, but what I've seen, it seems rather weak.

Well the safe, sane and consentual part is a really important part of BDSM. I mean if you do something to another person without their consent, then it is simply rape. Of course there are relationships out there, where the sub gives away the right to say the safeword, but if something happens, you have a really really big problem with the law.

 

[215303j]

Well the safe, sane and consentual part is a really important part of BDSM. I mean if you do something to another person without their consent, then it is simply rape. Of course there are relationships out there, where the sub gives away the right to say the safeword, but if something happens, you have a really really big problem with the law.

Yes, that is what I have a problem understanding.
I guess that it is a rather difficult balance between fulfilling a fantasy and doing so in a safe way.
The "safe way" is what I have problems with.

Similarly, I have a problem with boxing as a form of self-defence, because the gloves, which are needed to keep things more or less safe, dictate a lot of the techniques. So, while I understand that a person likes boxing as a sport, but I don't understand that somebody learns boxing to know how to fight or how to defend himself.

But the analogue goes wrong, as BDSM is not a sport, but rather a fulfillment of a certain power fantasy.
On the other hand, being on the receiving end of a real rapist / murderer is not fun at all, so there must be rules and safewords etc.
It's a very complicated subject for me...

 

[GhostPhil]

Yeah it definitely is no easy subject. But a BDSM relationship shouldn't only be fun for one part, but rather both parts.
So the dominant part can only go as far as the submissiv part can "handle" it. That's why it is a good idea to make some kind of list for the hard limits of the sub. And that's also a reason why there are safewords or even slowwords. (like the traffic light colors).
It is kind of difficult to explain, even more for me, because I have my problems with saying it in English.
I can just suggest to search for it through Google, because there are a lot of good side about that subject

 

[Ataios]

In many ways real life BDSM is in itself a sort of game or at least roleplay. BDSM is consentual, but the people involved often play with non-consentual scenarios, such as slavery or imprisonment. This may be the reason is rarely used in games: The developers of games rather lets the player imprison or enslave characters rather than play prison or slavery with them. In many cases I can understand that quite well. An evil overlord abducting the princess is usually more appaeling as a protagonist than John McAverage playing evil overlord and princess with his wife.

I can think of scenarios where the BDSM theme work, such as with the secretly submissive powerful woman, where consent is a necessary factor.

Another possible scenario would be a relationship where BDSM kind of runs out of control and takes over aspects of daily life outside the bedroom. I don't know how often this happens in real life, but I could easily imagine that it does, considering the space you need for some of the toys. I always wonder, how BDSM couples with kids hide their equiment from the children's curious eyes.

 

[GhostPhil]

In many ways real life BDSM is in itself a sort of game or at least roleplay. BDSM is consentual, but the people involved often play with non-consentual scenarios, such as slavery or imprisonment. This may be the reason is rarely used in games: The developers of games rather lets the player imprison or enslave characters rather than play prison or slavery with them. In many cases I can understand that quite well. An evil overlord abducting the princess is usually more appaeling as a protagonist than John McAverage playing evil overlord and princess with his wife.

Well in games you also want to live your fantasies, so rather than doing a rape-play game you would play a rape game.

I have the feeling that I should search for a good definition for BDSM and post it on the first thread

Another possible scenario would be a relationship where BDSM kind of runs out of control and takes over aspects of daily life outside the bedroom. I don't know how often this happens in real life, but I could easily imagine that it does, considering the space you need for some of the toys. I always wonder, how BDSM couples with kids hide their equiment from the children's curious eyes.

Well a relationship that takes over the daily life is called 24/7.
Well that theme with the kids is an interesstimg theme, but could also be made into a really funny story :biggrin:

 

[Segnbora]

In some cases, I could see the desire to hurt someone (even to the point that it may be arousing), however I have real difficulty with the consentual part of BDSM. The BDSM being consentual implies that the dom really has to hold back and that the sub is actually in control, in a way. At least that's my understanding how it works.

Well, first of all, despite the acronym BDSM/kink doesn't require dom/sub roles or power exchange of any kind, nor does it necessarily involve pain. Those are major areas of interest, sure, but they're not essential.

With regard to DS roles...I've come to believe that most people naturally gravitate towards one or the other, and I can usually guess correctly after observing/talking with someone for a while, but that's very far from saying that they want to actually inhabit one of the roles (sexually or otherwise), nor does it mean that even if they do want to explore power exchange, that they want to play as their natural proclivity. I know plenty of doms and subs who prefer to play as switches, in or out of their primary relationships. And, for what it's worth, I think most of the best doms and subs have at least tried to experience the opposite role. Knowing what it's like to submit makes one a better dom; knowing what it's like to dominate makes one a better sub.

What you're describing has a name ("topping from the bottom"), and while I'm not going to say it never works, I'm going to suggest it usually doesn't unless the power exchange is purely for fun. An actual sub or dom isn't just goofing around; their role is an essential part of their character. A sub can't actually submit if they're Cyrano-ing their way through a scene. All that negotiating has to happen in advance. If it doesn't, they're not going to be able to enter the mental/emotional/submissive space they want to enter.

A dom doesn't have to "hold back"; what they have to do is respect the prearranged limits. Some people legitimately like, need, or even get off in response to pain, and in a consensual and well-negotiated setting there's nothing wrong and everything right with giving them what they want. (That said, a fair number of subs who ask for painful things to be done to them aren't in it for the pain as such, they're in it for the release that comes with the infliction or cessation of pain. The first sub I was ever close to was up for pretty much anything, no matter how extreme, as long as it ended up with her losing control and bursting into tears...at which point the scene was over for her because she'd gotten what she needed out of it.) Likewise, there are doms who enjoy inflicting pain (and one hopes they're with subs that enjoy receiving it), but I think it's even more common that the emotional state for which they're striving isn't necessarily causing pain as an end in itself, but rather as a means to a clear and much-desired power imbalance. Ideally, people who not only want, but need one of those states gravitate towards someone who wants/needs the opposite and knows how to respect limits.

Just to give an example: I enjoy (giving) what might be termed light impact play. Spanking, flogging, maybe a belt if everyone's feeling frisky and doesn't mind some marks. Add restriction implements (e.g. clamps) and my own personal enjoyment ends there. However, if my partner wants more severe impact play (switches, canes, crops, tawses, etc. ... I'm not trained with whips and thus won't touch them), I'll happily do it for them, up until one of my own limits (no blood) is reached. If they need/want something harder, they need to find someone else.

There's a lot more talk about consent in BDSM than there is in the "vanilla" sexual world, and the latter would be greatly improved if it took a cue from the former. Of course, consent violations still happen in BDSM/kink settings, and given some of the possible activities they can be pretty ugly when they do. That said, a lot of BDSM is conducted/talked about in a fairly public way (albeit within the relatively small community), and serial consent violators rarely get away with it for very long. Especially these days.

Well I am at least thinking about doing a game solely focused on BDSM, but well first I have to learn using Daz Studio and Ren'Py But you can look at my thread that is linked in my signature

I wish you luck, and will look forward to it!

Do you know the Comic Sunstone?

I do, of course.

 

[trdx]

Similarly, I have a problem with boxing as a form of self-defence, because the gloves, which are needed to keep things more or less safe, dictate a lot of the techniques. So, while I understand that a person likes boxing as a sport, but I don't understand that somebody learns boxing to know how to fight or how to defend himself.

Well, I don't want to derail the thread, but I suspect that the analogy is really not there (or maybe parts of it do apply and that's why I'm explaining it). The reasons why boxing is great for self-defense are many.

- the gloves are there for you to make sure you can train harder and longer and therefor becoming better when needed. Do heavy bag training sessions without gloves and you will be injured more often than not, it's a recipe for disaster.

- while there are differences between boxing with gloves and boxing without, they are affected more by the rules/referee than the actual gloves. Example would be uppercut. In boxing we know what that means, close and straight up. Without gloves it's much easier to miss and if you do miss, you can't just hug the opponent and wait for the ref to separate you. You will get headbutted and knee to your balls instead. So without gloves (or even with MMA gloves/kickboxing), the uppercut is instead slightly forward and from the side. It's a very similar effect, but much better suited. It's not hard for a trained boxer to adjust to that.

- Boxing training will improve your coordination, movement (looking for angles), punch strength/accuracy/timing, stamina, all which will prove extremely valuable when faced with real danger. It will also train your muscle memory, which is insanely important. Most people think they could fight when needed, but when they start punching a target for the first time, they realize they are missing everything, especially with the weaker hand. If you figure that out during a training, it's going to cost you much less than if you figure it out when you need to protect yourself or your family.

- Getting punched or even seeing someone trying to punch you for the first time (or even 100th time) is terrifying and most people will freeze and act completely irrationally. There is only one way you can get rid of that fear and that's sparring, you actually need to get hit. There's no other way.

The first sub I was ever close to was up for pretty much anything, no matter how extreme, as long as it ended up with her losing control and bursting into tears...at which point the scene was over for her because she'd gotten what she needed out of it.) Likewise, there are doms who enjoy inflicting pain (and one hopes they're with subs that enjoy receiving it), but I think it's even more common that the emotional state for which they're striving isn't necessarily causing pain as an end in itself, but rather as a means to a clear and much-desired power imbalance. Ideally, people who not only want, but need one of those states gravitate towards someone who wants/needs the opposite and knows how to respect limits.

Could you expand a bit on these points, both sides? What was it exactly that sub needed and why is the loss control felt only at the end? I would've felt loss of control the moment bad things start happening to me. And the dom part, are you saying that most doms are not very confident and want control they don't have in life? There are some posts in this thread that suggest the opposite so I find it interesting.

 

[GhostPhil]

Well, first of all, despite the acronym BDSM/kink doesn't require dom/sub roles or power exchange of any kind, nor does it necessarily involve pain. Those are major areas of interest, sure, but they're not essential.

With regard to DS roles...I've come to believe that most people naturally gravitate towards one or the other, and I can usually guess correctly after observing/talking with someone for a while, but that's very far from saying that they want to actually inhabit one of the roles (sexually or otherwise), nor does it mean that even if they do want to explore power exchange,that they want to play as their natural proclivity. I know plenty of doms and subs who prefer to play as switches, in or out of their primary relationships. And, for what it's worth, I think most of the best doms and subs have at least tried to experience the opposite role. Knowing what it's like to submit makes one a better dom; knowing what it's like to dominate makes one a better sub.

What you're describing has a name ("topping from the bottom"), and while I'm not going to say it never works, I'm going to suggest it usually doesn't unless the power exchange is purely for fun. An actual sub or dom isn't just goofing around; their role is an essential part of their character. A sub can't actually submit if they're Cyrano-ing their way through a scene. All that negotiating has to happen in advance. If it doesn't, they're not going to be able to enter the mental/emotional/submissive space they want to enter.

A dom doesn't have to "hold back"; what they have to do is respect the prearranged limits. Some people legitimately like, need, or even get off in response to pain, and in a consensual and well-negotiated setting there's nothing wrong and everything right with giving them what they want. (That said, a fair number of subs who ask for painful things to be done to them aren't in it for the pain as such, they're in it for the release that comes with the infliction or cessation of pain. The first sub I was ever close to was up for pretty much anything, no matter how extreme, as long as it ended up with her losing control and bursting into tears...at which point the scene was over for her because she'd gotten what she needed out of it.) Likewise, there are doms who enjoy inflicting pain (and one hopes they're with subs that enjoy receiving it), but I think it's even more common that the emotional state for which they're striving isn't necessarily causing pain as an end in itself, but rather as a means to a clear and much-desired power imbalance. Ideally, people who not only want, but need one of those states gravitate towards someone who wants/needs the opposite and knows how to respect limits.

Just to give an example: I enjoy (giving) what might be termed light impact play. Spanking, flogging, maybe a belt if everyone's feeling frisky and doesn't mind some marks. Add restriction implements (e.g. clamps) and my own personal enjoyment ends there. However, if my partner wants more severe impact play (switches, canes, crops, tawses, etc. ... I'm not trained with whips and thus won't touch them), I'll happily do it for them, up until one of my own limits (no blood) is reached. If they need/want something harder, they need to find someone else.

There's a lot more talk about consent in BDSM than there is in the "vanilla" sexual world, and the latter would be greatly improved if it took a cue from the former. Of course, consent violations still happen in BDSM/kink settings, and given some of the possible activities they can be pretty ugly when they do. That said, a lot of BDSM is conducted/talked about in a fairly public way (albeit within the relatively small community), and serial consent violators rarely get away with it for very long. Especially these days.

Thanks for clarifying it more It is nice to see someone with more real life experience. Sadly I can't relate too much with it as most of my kinks are pure fantasy. I only experienced "light BDSM" and the relationship didn't hold long. After this I went to a "BDSM group of regulars for younger people". But as I am pretty shy, I couldn't experience more, although talking with people there was really fun.
I would also see me more as a Switch, because I am interested in both ways, although I might be more interessted in being a Dom.

I wish you luck, and will look forward to it!

Thanks, it will be a long way, but hopefully it is rewarding and hopefully I can picture BDSM in a good way

I do, of course.

Well I would actually suggest it to BDSM newcomer It is just really beautiful in picturing BDSM relationships with its ups and downs