[Discussion] BDSM in Adult games and in general!

[Segnbora]

Of the games with a stated focus on BDSM, the only Western-style one (I'm no expert on Eastern-style games) that gets it mostly right is

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. I say "mostly" because the MC is a monster and very little of what happens is actually consensual; but if you can overlook the fact that the MC should be in solitary confinement for the rest of his life, the activities and roles are not only reasonably well done, but nicely varied. It's also (I think) the only BDSM-focused game in which the author successfully introduces a character who's a true switch, rather than just submissive or dominant.

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has some reasonably solid kink, though it's mostly optional and I personally wish the dev would push it a little farther. Again, one positive is that not all the NPCs like the same things, nor are they submissive in the same way.

A game that's not BDSM-focused but manages to introduce it to the story in a realistic way is

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. This is one of the few on the list where there's both maledom and femdom available.

Others that come to mind are

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and

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, though it's been a while since I've played either (I'm staying away until they're closer to completion). I'm probably missing some others, and almost certainly some good femdom games as they're not my thing. I also tend to avoid trainers, so I'm likely unaware of any games in that genre that fit the description.

Spoiler: some game-specific spoilers

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For real-life BDSM fans, this is abhorrent. Corruption is one thing, but outright manipulation crosses the line. It doesn't mean the game can't be enjoyed, but it does require ignoring the reality of what's actually happening.

 

[GhostPhil]

Of the games with a stated focus on BDSM, the only Western-style one (I'm no expert on Eastern-style games) that gets it mostly right is

You must be registered to see the links

. I say "mostly" because the MC is a monster and very little of what happens is actually consensual; but if you can overlook the fact that the MC should be in solitary confinement for the rest of his life, the activities and roles are not only reasonably well done, but nicely varied. It's also (I think) the only BDSM-focused game in which the author successfully introduces a character who's a true switch, rather than just submissive or dominant.

You must be registered to see the links

has some reasonably solid kink, though it's mostly optional and I personally wish the dev would push it a little farther. Again, one positive is that not all the NPCs like the same things, nor are they submissive in the same way.

A game that's not BDSM-focused but manages to introduce it to the story in a realistic way is

You must be registered to see the links

. This is one of the few on the list where there's both maledom and femdom available.

Others that come to mind are

You must be registered to see the links

and

You must be registered to see the links

, though it's been a while since I've played either (I'm staying away until they're closer to completion). I'm probably missing some others, and almost certainly some good femdom games as they're not my thing. I also tend to avoid trainers, so I'm likely unaware of any games in that genre that fit the description.

Spoiler: some game-specific spoilers

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For real-life BDSM fans, this is abhorrent. Corruption is one thing, but outright manipulation crosses the line. It doesn't mean the game can't be enjoyed, but it does require ignoring the reality of what's actually happening.

Thanks for another quite detailed and long answer in this thread.
I have to agree with the list of game and with the fact that most of them show non consensual relationships. Of course as a game they can work. For example to experience an extreme that you wouldn't even consider in real life.
I don't really get why nobody tried to make a real BDSM game. It just seems like all the developer don't know or understand the meaning of SSC (Safe Sane Consentual).
That's also a reason why I was thinking about such a game myself. It could even play with the borders of SSC and the importance of a Safeword.

 

[Segnbora]

There's no reason (thus far; I don't know where the story's headed) that Deviant Discoveries couldn't be a pure BDSM game. Just remove the entire vial conceit. I presume the writer has plans for the mind control/personality adjustment aspects of the game (we've already seen the body modification outcomes, or at least most of them), and so we'll see where they go. But without the vials, and with a little more reluctance from at least some of the NPCs, it could easily be a fully consensual game.

You're absolutely right that we enjoy, or maybe put up with, a lot of behaviors in these games that would be grossly unacceptable in real life. So much sexual assault and outright rape, so much nonconsensuality, so much cross-generation incest, etc. It's sorta baked into the genre, or at least it seems to be. With specific regard to BDSM games, though, it's notable and a little depressing that to actually enjoy it in a game it's usually necessary to ignore one of its key tenets.

There has been at least one "real" BDSM game (

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), and the others from the same dev (

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,

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, and

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) all include significant BDSM elements. The issue with Bondage Island is just that it's not a very good game; it's a badly signposted stat grinder on a clock, the CG isn't great, and once you get into the kink it's extremely limited in scope (both visually and textually; "you tied her up for a while and you both enjoyed it" doesn't really cut it). I don't want to criticize it too much, because I'm convinced the dev is capable of better (and in fact the latest games are somewhat better), but the limitations remain: aimless location-searching, simple single-image BDSM elements, and the same annoying blind stat grind. I think the dev would do much better with a more linear and story-based game...like, say, Deviant Discoveries.

 

[Meesteres]

I am currently making a slave trainer game with fem/protag. I released the first version today, maybe you can take a look at it? https://f95zone.to/threads/slaver-v0-1-meesteres.28351/. You have a male servant/sex slave but sex scenes with him are optional and I am planning to implement more of a storyline.

 

[Parmenion1405]

hi there,

foremost i have to admit i have only read the first and the last side of this thread.

I stumbled upon it as i was about to open a thread with the same topic.
Cos in real life i have had my share in the local bdsm scene. When i see the games that uses this Tag, i normally want to puke.
tbh most of this games evolve around rape and enslavement that is in sync with real bdsm as the poles.

Yeah sometimes you do rape-role-plays, but BDSM has absolutely nothing to do with real rape. Or Blackmail into submission.
BDSM is build up but trust not fear. The relationship between Dom and Sub developing over time. U absolutely must trust each other, and even than you have to use save-words, if a play goes to far for one of both. And the other will never ignore a save-word and go on with the play, it would be the sure and definite end of that relationship

And the diversity of plays in games seems to me totally limited by authors without experience in that regard. It feels like a person how tries to explain how american football is played, but does only knows about soccer. It misses any depth and is mostly an horrifying misconception of the real thing. Exp the scene in MoH where the brother blindfolds the older sister and let have the friend of hers have her way with her... unbelievable bullshit tbh

oh of course you can have participate third party people but never without knowing all persons involved. And the most games reduce BDSM to 3 max 4 story parts (Rape, Blindfolding, Punishment, enslavement) and that's mostly bad written and so far from the real thing. There so many posibilities to play as a Dom/sub pair. From candles, toys, dressingcodes, even everday things can become tools to play, but never without consent of both parties. That for me most BDSM games are only Rape games
That's why i didn't answer the poll before cos the answer i would give isn't present there. No i do not like bdsm games cos they are to simple minded and of off reality that i cant see any relevance to play them

I was tempted to give an example but first i am no native and so its quite hard to express the development of such kind of relationship exactly and what is more important to me, there wont be a general route to take, we are all individuals and so no relationship is to pin down to a specific way of development. But in one point regarding BDSM relationships i am 100% sure and that is both the dominant and the submissive part are equally and foremost bound to find out the desires and need of each other. A dom how does not care about his/her subs need will never be a good dom, and vice versa.


Just my 2 cent
Greetings Parmenion

 

[hameleona]

Oh, yeah, so much yes. Sadly, as talked already most games fail at representing the fetish as participated in the real-world well. That being said, to avoid sone really bad outcomes the SSC part is like a mantra in the real world.

Not so much in games and there are some reasons for it. Main one is that most MCs would have already been kicked out of any BDSM scene I've seen. There are very few, that don't use some form of grooming, blackmail, mind control, drugs or outright rape to have sex with the girls.

That said, there are as many types of doms as there are subs. I know doms, that would puke at most games here for the consent violations in them. I know subs that would love them. And vise-versa. People are complex beings and those who have explored their sexuality - even more so.

As a practicing dom, I can only tell you this - I don't think there are games that have represented a dom well. There have been some for subs, but doms are usually outright bad people (most MCs or even some side-characters). But than again, games are limited by a lot of factors.

 

[Parmenion1405]

@hameleona sure your right, i am dom myself, with some sub phases in the past. But as far as my own knowledge goes i never encountered a sub who seeks outright rape.

Every Dom i talked so far, and my own point of view, as a dom you care about your sub. There are as many forms of Dom as Doms are presented in the scene. I have meet the harsh ones a lot, but nonetheless caring gentle one and a lot in between.
And Subs aren't toys like mostly displayed in these games.
I used role play blackmail myself and it is kinda fun, but its only role play.

to sum it up the game out there are too black and withe on both sides. Doms are bad or selfish and don't care a shit. Subs are mostly so subs that they would allow everything done to them by everyone. Its ridiculous

 

[trdx]

50 shades of gray movies definitely didn't help the public perception. I'm shocked if those are really female fantasies.

 

[hameleona]

@Parmenion1405 ,oh i've known doms that don't care. They won't admit it in the open, but they do see their subs as toys to be played with. Borrowed toys to be percise with the analogy - there are rules you follow, but they are there for you to play with. And I've known several subs, that do want exactly that. But as I've said - many, many doms and subs out there.

I've also found that there are things people perceive differently, based on culture. People are predisposed to see what they expect. And this is where things get murky.

Note for the people not in to BDSM - tis is why sane, safe and consentual is such a big deal in BDSM. What is normal for one may be a huge violation for someone else. It's why you talk, discuss, place boundaries and follow the rules.

That said, most games lack depth. That's the answer for me, when I think of why most BDSM in them is lacking. Most characters are not well-rounded and imo you can't have a good BDSM game without well written characters.

@trdx fuck 50 shades.

 

[VixnSkye]

50 shades of gray movies definitely didn't help the public perception. I'm shocked if those are really female fantasies.

Believe me. Those ARE female fantasies. I have several friends who are all over for that shit series, and none of them are guys.

By the way, I know it sounds blasphemic, but I'm happy for the success of 50 Shades. Before that BDSM was a much more opressed taboo. As much as I hate both the book, and the movies, they did make BDSM more accepted in the society, and now you aren't considered a freak, if you admit you are into it. At least as a woman you are not, I don't know about guys. Sure, 50 Shades paints a twisted picture about BDSM (I'm convinced the writer never had any personal experience about it before writing the books), basically it shows an abusing relationship, but curiously even as being that, it helped BDSM very much.


To say something about the original topic, Ladykiller in a Bind has by far the best BDSM representation in a game I've ever played with. MC can have encounters both as sub, and dom, and both are written thoroughly, and they are absolutely consensual (the sub route has blackmail-like tendencies, but it's more of a quid-pro-quo, than actual blackmail). If playing with a lesbian female protagonist, and having solely lesbian encounters isn't problematic for someone, I think it absolutely worth a go. Just as the comic series Sunstone (though the last two books of Sunstone were rather boring). Both are wonderful in their respective type.

 

[Parmenion1405]

@trdx @VixenSkye

tbh i have never read/watched anything of the shades series. And i won't do it in future. As @hameleona mentioned before SSC is essential in BDSM. And there are as many fantasies out there as people. I have encountered females fantasies i was not able to fulfill, cos they were against my believes (hitting her with my fist or heavy strangulation as example). And i have had females that dined some of my fantasies. First and foremost it is about communicate your wishes as clear as possible.

I guess as long as all involved are happy everything is fine and good. And in present days we should accept that we will encounter people with wishes and believes beyond our own imagination. But sometimes i guess as more we advance the more narrow minded a lot of people get.

Why do so many people think of the Dom as badass and the sub as someone with low self esteem and mostly with female subs as whores...

but what me bothers most in these games is that some people think they know what they wirte about. Like some how knows about chess figures thinks of himself a chess master. To be profund with something you have to gain experience and knowledge. And this doesn't come form reading or imagination, but by doing it. We judge by our own experiences, but that biased

 

[VixnSkye]

Why do so many people think of the Dom as badass and the sub as someone with low self esteem and mostly with female subs as whores...

I think it comes from the roles during the play. In normal life, to dominate someone, you have to overcome them, therefore you are the winner, the best, and they are the weaker one, the loser. It's simply a matter of associating normal life with sexual one.
Sure, anyone who has a little actual, first-hand experience with BDSM, knows it's not neccesserally that way. Some dominant people LOVE the submissive role in BDSM, and vice versa. I always considered BDSM as a different kind of roleplay. Just as I wouldn't kill a preacher, or stuck-up snob on the city square just because they annoy me (I did several times in Skyrim), I wouldn't be the brainless slave of someone. But it's just a play (a rather exciting one) and has to be treated as such.
It's also true that I knew people who immersed themselves in their BDSM role way more than it's healthy, but I think there isn't anything particularly surprising about it. Just as everything else, BDSM can become an addiction if someone doesn't know how to handle it properly.

 

[Parmenion1405]

@VixenSkye the dose does the posion

sidecomment: I used to be a hero till i took an arrow to my knee

i just happend to have a phone conversation on a similar subject. And i know i am no saint, and i don't want to be one either
but i like to keep it in moderate ways. So foremost it is fore me that my sub does not have lasting damage and that includes scars etc. And i am no fan of scat plays either. But i like to expose my sub to some degree, but i won't share her. I like it and find it arousing if strangers watch her, but i would never dare to expose her to an thread that maybe could not handle

 

[hameleona]

I am sworn to carry your burdens...

@Parmenion1405, you are overanalizing the games. Like, it would be normal to do it to game like Bondage island, but not to most games. That games tries to be a BDSM game (fails at the game part IMO). People write about a lot of shit they don't know. And as I've pointed out, most PCs are NOT suited for doms irl. Thing is, I can say the same for a lot of stuff in games - combat, the world, the characters... Ether roll with it, or avoid it.

 

[trdx]

Believe me. Those ARE female fantasies. I have several friends who are all over for that shit series, and none of them are guys.

By the way, I know it sounds blasphemic, but I'm happy for the success of 50 Shades. Before that BDSM was a much more opressed taboo. As much as I hate both the book, and the movies, they did make BDSM more accepted in the society, and now you aren't considered a freak, if you admit you are into it. At least as a woman you are not, I don't know about guys. Sure, 50 Shades paints a twisted picture about BDSM (I'm convinced the writer never had any personal experience about it before writing the books), basically it shows an abusing relationship, but curiously even as being that, it helped BDSM very much.

Yeah, I'm still not convinced those are female fantasies. I am not saying that no woman has fantasies about being in a relationship with a psychotic abuser, I just think they are not very common.

What I think is happening in 50 shades is something completely different. Here's a thought experiment: imagine that everything was the same except that the guy was a poor cook in a fast food restaurant. This would have been one the most criticized movies by the #metoo society we live in. It's precisely the wealth accumulated by the guy that makes this even remotely attractive to women. Every time she has doubts about relationship, she gets a helicopter ride or a flight and it's all amazing again.

Didn't he at one point say something like "I need to be hurting you." Basically admitting that he was addicted to causing pain. I think that this can actually have negative effect on public perception. The way I see it, it confirmed exactly the same stereotypes that were present before. And it might cause some woman to stay in an abusive relationship where she is suffering physically and mentally for way too long. As long as the guy has money, of course.

 

[VixnSkye]

Yeah, I'm still not convinced those are female fantasies. I am not saying that no woman has fantasies about being in a relationship with a psychotic abuser, I just think they are not very common.

What I think is happening in 50 shades is something completely different. Here's a thought experiment: imagine that everything was the same except that the guy was a poor cook in a fast food restaurant. This would have been one the most criticized movies by the #metoo society we live in. It's precisely the wealth accumulated by the guy that makes this even remotely attractive to women. Every time she has doubts about relationship, she gets a helicopter ride or a flight and it's all amazing again.

Didn't he at one point say something like "I need to be hurting you." Basically admitting that he was addicted to causing pain. I think that this can actually have negative effect on public perception. The way I see it, it confirmed exactly the same stereotypes that were present before. And it might cause some woman to stay in an abusive relationship where she is suffering physically and mentally for way too long. As long as the guy has money, of course.

Believe me, those ARE female fantasies. The writer is a female, the vast majority of the readers were females, and let's just say the crowd in the movies didn't have many males either. 50 Shades worked for several reasons. And yes, one of them was what you said: powerful, handsome, young rich guy. It's pretty much the same as it is with guys and stupid blonds with balloon tits. Both work on a large part of the population. The thing about 50 Shades, besides of the powerful, handsome, young rich guy thing, it appealed to one another female fantasy. Being dominated. The majority of women has fantasies about being dominated, and always by someone who's appealing to our taste. Being dominated takes a part of guilt away. "I'm a decent woman, I would never be with someone just for sex, I don't want this, I'm just forced to do it". It also comes from a part of the nature I guess, as we are coded to have the strongest possible offspring, and a dominant alpha likely will be able to give that to us. Sure, neither of these work like that in real conditions. Being dominated is fun only as long as it is by someone we would want to be with anyway, and we neither want kids from every sex, nor can an alpha male ensure a strong child. But our subconscious level thinks it this way, that's why 50 Shades became succesful among women who supressed these kinds of sexual fantasies of theirs.

It doesn't make it any less shitty representation of true BDSM though. And as it is an awfully written story with shallow characters, it works only on people who are attracted to Mr. Grey. That's why guys don't like it (they can't symphatize with Mr. Grey, and the female protagonist is boring AF), that's why lesbians don't like it (I don't think it needs an explanation), and that's why many straight women don't like it. But it did bring BDSM to the mainstream culture, so we can thank that for it. Just think about how doms, subs, or the whole culture was represented in mainstream products before. Doms were cold sadists, subs were mindless sextoys, and both were exactly like that in their normal life too. Sure, 50 Shades kinda confirmed the stereotypes about doms, but it also brought BDSM to an everyday level, and it gave platform for a real conversation, that can help making those stereotypes go away. In the end, I believe it did move things into a better direction.

And what you said about abusing relationships... I don't think it changed them in any way. Women stayed in abusive relationships before, and sadly they will for a long time. Those who are afraid to break up, didn't need one more cause to stay (and they won't enjoy it more, because of 50 Shades), and those who stayed not out of fear, but solely for the money also didn't need one more cause, as they considered it a trade-off for wealth.

The only actually bad change it brought is the stance about women of a considerable minority among men. We preached for a long time that abusive relationship is bad, hitting women is bad, and from 50 Shades they felt they got a reassurance that women just say those things, while they actually want to be beaten and abused. I can understand why narrow minded guys think like that, but explaining them why it is false is an impossible task.

 

[Ataios]

To be fair, we have to say, that 50 Shades of Grey got it's share of criticism from feminists and #metoo crowd, just not from regular women, you meet on the street. Same goes for the toothless wannabe vampire saga. Feminists, or 3rd wave feminists or Tumblr feminists to be precise, just don't represent the majority of women in real life, only in certain parts of the internet.

I agree that 50 Shades is a female fantasy. It did not appeal to men at all and there were still enough women who liked it, to make it profitable. Again, same for Twilight.

Though it appeals to a female fantasy, it doesn't mean, that all the women who enjoyed the books and movies, would enjoy domestic abuse in real life. Erotic fantasies don't translate into reality 1:1. Just think of incest games. Not every guy, who jerks off to incest porn would fuck his mother and sister in real life.

 

[Zippity]

I don't see BDSM in real life as too big of an issue, most of the time, as long as it's completely consensual between all parties involved, that no one actually gets hurt emotionally/mentally, that it's just to spice up one sex life, and that it doesn't go too overboard... I also believe it should be a private affair, and should not be brought out into most public spaces... When you see some folks out there, who are actually completely taking on the roles of actual Master and Slave in every aspect of their daily lives, where the master/dominant shows no empathy, emotion, or remorse at all in anything they say and/or do to the slave/submissive, even in public, that is when I have to draw the line and say hell to the no... Or in cases where the slave/submissive person doesn't fully comprehend that the situation has become more about abuse on the part of the master/dominant, rather then mutual pleasure and respect, again I call bullshit on the whole thing at that point... There is this thing called Stockholm syndrome between an abuser and his/her victims, which just makes you want to string the abuser up by his/her private parts, and beat them with a red hot poker for all eternity (I know that sounds a bit extreme)...

I don't really care about people having a little mutual fun in the bedroom, but when it goes too far outside and/or beyond that, I just have to say no...

Now, in fantasy, for me it's just another fetish people have, as long as it isn't taken too far... In which case, I stop reading and/or playing the VN/Game at that point...

Zip

 

[Segnbora]

The objection to 50 Shades from actual practitioners of BDSM is that the "dom" is a walking pile of red flags and consent violations in waiting who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a potential sexual partner until he gets some therapy, while the "sub" is a marshmallow-willed, cringing, pathetic non-entity who should be fleeing at top speed from people like Christian Grey. If those people actually existed and got together for kinky fun, someone would get hurt...probably physically and emotionally. The danger isn't that readers/viewers get exposed to edgier sex, it's that everything that makes BDSM workable without everyone involved going to jail is stripped from the narrative.

Yeah, play around with a little spanking or handcuffs or whatever. No harm, no foul. But anything more extreme than that...anything requiring actual power exchange, restraints, breath play (which is really dangerous, even if you know what you're doing), serious impact play, etc....is, in 50 Shades, bound up with a "powerful, dominant man" fan-fictional fantasy that may or may not be unexpectedly widespread among readers/viewers, but which is absolutely the wrong lens to approach actual BDSM. Or, rather, is the way in which psychopaths and their unwitting victims approach BDSM, with predictable results.

If you've never been restrained and want me to tie you up, I will, but we're not doing anything else until you've been untied and we have a chance to discuss how you felt about it. If no one's ever used a flogger (or whatever else) on you, I'll let you try it out at varying levels of force but I'm not tying you up first; I want you to be able to get away as easily as you can say stop or your safe word. I'm certainly not going to drag you down to the Red Room of Pain or whatever that stupid book calls it and jump right to step 31. As a guide to what BDSM is actually like those books are doing a lot of damage. Which isn't surprising, considering it's just Twilight fan-fiction written and then rewritten by someone who once got off to a sparkly vampire fantasy.

 

[Andrash]

I'm just dropping this link here:

Spoiler

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For anyone who's looking for recommendations regarding some BDSM games mostly with Male Domination tags that I have played... The list is not complete, feel free to suggest me your recommendations...