Do you prefer a harem or having to choose in games?

[megaplayboy10k]

There are plenty of examples of moderately successful men(married or single) "juggling" multiple women. Now, those arrangements are often inherently unstable, but usually it's the charm and resources of the man, manipulating and managing the expectations of the women, that keep it going.

 

[MrFriendly]

I prefer the chase and having to choose... Harems don't have any "suspense" so they need to have a well done story with something interesting going on or the game becomes boring for me. A romantic game where the love interests don't fall at the MC's feet because they have a "magical dick" are more interesting if doing a slice of life type of story.

As for the "Friday night need to choose between A or B" why not allow the player to choose to go on a date on Saturday? Perhaps if the MC has enough relationship points with the character they can suggest rescheduling? Or maybe if your game has that the MC can have an attribute the player picks (Charismatic for example) that attribute allows them to go on a date with someone on a Saturday? I suggest all of the above nonsense because I want to get to know the characters well before choosing one. I play these games to make choices and see relationships develop similar to why I play bioware games (played I suppose since they've not made a good game in awhile).

In all honesty I want to play games where it is tough to choose and I am forced to play multiple times. I want to know that one girl is a tall athletic brunette, she loves dancing and jogging, all the latest music and looks great in a black cocktail dress while still retaining a bit of the romantic desire for a guy to sweep her off her feet and I also want to know that the other is a petite redhead who is sweet natured yet stubborn, innocent but not naive and sticks up for her those she cares for - yet is still uncertain what she wants in a guy besides the MC. Now make me choose between those two and I will be happy to replay your game multiple times over.

As to whether harems are unrealistic - of course they are... But I don't mind them in an incest game or some other completely fantastical situation (stranded on a desert island with a bunch of women). But most of what I play are romantic/dating sim/one lover at the end type of games. I like that feeling of navigating my way through a long story full of trials and tribulations and getting to the happy ending. Just don't force me to play through and romance only one "true love" that you've chosen from the beginning which makes all the other "love interests" second class characters. Hate that.

 

[Venoma]

My feedback would really depend on you as a dev. Or more specially, while taking into account the realistic outside expectation surrounding what quality level of writing one could expect going in to it.

As another poster already mostly summed up, if it's a 2021 start from scratch support and modern day game design attempt at trying to tell a serious story then harems look ridiculous. But I also strongly disagree with the other people chiming in the 'why not both" here as possibility if a deep and universally appealing story is going to be an endgame focus goal. Especially games like this, since picking and choosing between the girls/guys is basically always going to end up being the most meaningful choice by concept design in any game aiming to include meaningful choices. There is also no "both" win to be had in that approach either, from a dev perspective, given the very vocal target market of people you end up having to cater to at the start who appreciate a good harem are just going to end up demanding that harem presentation in it's most absolute of forms. Which in turn essentially just leads to the early and unavoidable fork in the road that sees you including aspects into your game that simply doesn't add up for good/unique/engaging story material potential among a lot of the less vocal people out there who *don't* find the same level of appreciation in the aspects driving that absolute harem concept you'll end up feeding while trying to garner more early support/praise.

Basically, in the grander scheme of things trying to have both imo is essentially just the shortsighted way to set up a much higher likelihood of overall interest failure latter. Like I pointed out to another dev recently, you can see a similar "both" example mistake being made over the last year with the recent trend of higher quality efforts trying to combine the surface of appeal of a Mafia theme setting with a strong incest angle. That just ends up seeing your MC supposedly trying to be Don Corlene in one scene and in the next is trying to screw "mommy". Some things simply conflict too much with each other, and the end result just serves up what most end up deeming a ham and peanut butter sandwich.

But yeah, given the choice as your more typical "playing these games to jerk off without taking my immersion level to any extremes " USA based consumer who tends to resonate more with stand out from the masses stories and game themes that feel more english based then "relocated" english based, a deeper level of potential appreciation/appeal will almost always likely be found in a game that is non harem. But that said, and I'm almost tempted to stress this next part in cap here....my preference to non harem games doesn't mean I prefer to see devs make the way too common mistake of going complete extreme overkill with the manner in which those non harem game choices are implanted. Such as stuff like closing off LI routes 2 episodes in and before I even get to really know a girl on a more established level simply because I decided to go here instead of there.

In that last respect BARS basically rewrote the new standard approach blueprint every dev should be copycatting and improving upon as far as I'm concerned btw. Which by and large is basically let everybody (including an overwhelming majority of the pro harem crowd who are still going to play the game regardless if you say there is no harem ending if the game is good) enjoy the non literal harem going on for a very extended amount of drawn out time before dropping in the repercussion bombs to all that much latter formula. Or basically, locking a player out of some end game scenes content on girls they already previously got to romance is a completely different and less impactful perception aspect beast then locking players out of a lot of a girl's content period.

 

[Kurumi Tokisaki]

It depends on the games setting, characters and their personalities as I like choosing with routes and harems in general. There is also the option of having routes between each girl, harem route choice and jealousy/bad route if you choose one girl over the other girls more.

Harems can work really well with good characters suited towards it and you can always throw in humor with small quarrels between the girls as you grow the harem. Choosing your route is generally far more serious and brings up if it's locked once you choose or if you can go for harem/jealousy ending but the harem ending can't just be wedge in if characters are done in a way to allow it type thing.

So many possibilities that can be made where I personally can't say I prefer one over the other without knowing more.

 

[woody554]

I like the illusion of choice. I don't mind having obstacles being thrown in my way, but there should be some way to solve problems. get all the girls. however complicated and convoluted that solution might be. so when games categorically lock me out of girls that's just a huge bummer.

but also forced relationships are death. the default girlfriend/wife, the guaranteed early game slut, the disgusting pedo-bait child bride you can't stop from sucking your dick.

so ideally I'd like all the girls to be possible, but none of them being forced on me. there should be a way to go through without scoring ANY of the girls. and there should be a way to get ALL the girls, but never easy or trivial. the challenge should grow with the number of girls but not be hardcoded to lock me out.

the actual kind of harem, a collection of wives, is really not here or there. it's the most vanilla version of this, where everybody gets along and loves everybody. while there's nothing to not like, it's not a scenario that poses difficulties to the creator. except lacking conflict and having to come up with dialogue between people who are fine with everything. very difficult to write without the dialogue becoming pointless and flat.

 

[Buddawg]

I like choices that matter, but exclusion choices, are poor ass mechanics.

I prefer free and open games, if thats what you call harem, so be it.. I dont wanna play the same game 10 times to see the content, because the only mechanic you can implement is exclusion of content as a "choice".

Youre making a porn game, exclusion of content should not be a mechanic but at players discretion and will.

Imagine a game like wow telling you.. You can either do this raid or that raid, but you cant do both. Both raids have gear you want to progress. Neither on their own has enough for a full set. You need to do both to get the full story progression.
Its an illusion mechanic that is flawed in its center, and hides lack of actual choice.
If you want to make a single target lovers story, make it a single target lovers story. Want multiple lovers possible, make them possible.

 

[Venoma]

I like choices that matter, but exclusion choices, are poor ass mechanics.

I prefer free and open games, if thats what you call harem, so be it.. I dont wanna play the same game 10 times to see the content, because the only mechanic you can implement is exclusion of content as a "choice".

Youre making a porn game, exclusion of content should not be a mechanic but at players discretion and will.

Imagine a game like wow telling you.. You can either do this raid or that raid, but you cant do both. Both raids have gear you want to progress. Neither on their own has enough for a full set. You need to do both to get the full story progression.
Its an illusion mechanic that is flawed in its center, and hides lack of actual choice.
If you want to make a single target lovers story, make it a single target lovers story. Want multiple lovers possible, make them possible.

As implied before I agree with the general "I don't want to have to play through the same game 10X to see the content" problem, but your presented extreme solution of just stripping away any meaningful choice or more meaningful outcomes isn't ever the answer.

Or if you want to break it down in MMO terms (Everquest is better btw ), what you are basically saying there is that it somehow defeats the act of raiding period unless you are handed every single piece of BIS gear found within a single Temple of Vesehan clear, and that also absolutely has to include every uber rare drop from Vulak at the end. So like...let's just include a raiding mechanic where every boss mob drops one of everything for everybody in the raid so nobody ever has to make a choice on how to spend their dkp.

That doesn't create a meaningful raiding experience or meaningful outcome environment.

Like I noted above to me it all boils down to extremes and within the what and how much total content you choose to end up excluding. While from a development POV both understanding/acknowledging that making a choice to water down your entire game, with the all but unavoidable level of cringy writing that almost always has to go into building towards some happily ever after harem ending wrap up written in by non-writers, will ultimately never payout or matter nearly as much to anybody (including those pro harem fanatics) in comparison to what is being served up at the start/middle meat of the game. Or you know...the defining period that 100% determines whether a game ends up being successful and/or sees a large amount of varied people wanting to play it or not.

If a development approach can essentially be a win with everybody for 50%+ of it's lifespan, and which ideally is going to extend past the point where the random extremist popping into a thread complaining he won't play a game that doesn't include a "true" harem ending ever actually matters towards the game's overall successful level (but who still likely ends up playing that first 50+ anyway if it offers an extensive amount of content), that is easily the most appealing development choice on the table nowadays/imo. And if in the end that means a player doesn't end up with that one uber rare drop off Vulak, or in this case that extra story wrap up scene or 2 with a girl you already got the opportunity to score with earlier....that realistically is never nearly as big a deal as locking people out of an entire raid zone or opportunity period.

 

[DawnCry]

Something that I would actually find interesting would be harem management, mainly imposing rules, girls breaking said rules, having to take choices when conflicts within the harem happen and stuff like that, personally never understood why all characters accept so easy to be part of a harem, even more that no true conflicts and stuff like that happens.

 

[khumak]

Something that I would actually find interesting would be harem management, mainly imposing rules, girls breaking said rules, having to take choices when conflicts within the harem happen and stuff like that, personally never understood why all characters accept so easy to be part of a harem, even more that no true conflicts and stuff like that happens.

Yeah most games don't handle the jealousy you would normally expect in a realistic way. Either there are no consequences at all for cheating, or it's a game over bad ending the first time you get caught. There's no middle ground.

 

[lazymunchlax]

Yeah most games don't handle the jealousy you would normally expect in a realistic way. Either there are no consequences at all for cheating, or it's a game over bad ending the first time you get caught. There's no middle ground.

If its an Incest game, I'm more understanding to the failed jealousy, mostly because of how much people would miss out on if they gave up an Incestuous relationship and other family members knew, along with the notion that they generally love the family so they're not completely against extending who they fuck.

For others? Yeah. They usually play on the notion "I'd rather share you than lose you" but don't write it well.

 

[UpAfterTen]

I think it all comes down to how good the writing is. Unfortunately there are a lot of harem games where the writing... isn't the greatest. Then again there are a lot of games where you pursue one love at a time where the writing isn't up to par.

It's just that there's a higher bar to clear when you're talking about a harem novel. You have to come up with a reason for the harem, a reason why all these women are so in love with the hero, and in the end it's so beyond realistic that it's difficult to write.

I like games where you have a few dating options that you can work on at the same time, but with the added tension of knowing that if some girls find out about what's going on they're not going to be happy about it. Then you have the MC balancing trying to get the girl(s) on top of trying to balance air traffic control to keep any one of the girls from finding out about the other and getting pissed off.

I also think there's the added limitation that there are a lot of people playing these games who are fine with the idea of X Girls, 1 Dude, but the opposite where some of the girls pursue their own relationships while also going back to the guy is a turn off for a chunk of the audience. So it becomes one of those things where devs have to consciously decide whether or not to go down that path so they can mark a tag on their game rather than including it as a more nuanced and natural way people and relationships interact.

Then again I've also known guys who preferred the harem model for their relationship and were hot enough/rich enough to pull it off. Women wanted them, and they weren't shy about piling their plate high at the buffet. So while not realistic, it's certainly something that can happen.

 

[Buddawg]

As implied before I agree with the general "I don't want to have to play through the same game 10X to see the content" problem, but your presented extreme solution of just stripping away any meaningful choice or more meaningful outcomes isn't ever the answer.

Or if you want to break it down in MMO terms (Everquest is better btw ), what you are basically saying there is that it somehow defeats the act of raiding period unless you are handed every single piece of BIS gear found within a single Temple of Vesehan clear, and that also absolutely has to include every uber rare drop from Vulak at the end. So like...let's just include a raiding mechanic where every boss mob drops one of everything for everybody in the raid so nobody ever has to make a choice on how to spend their dkp.

That doesn't create a meaningful raiding experience or meaningful outcome environment.

Like I noted above to me it all boils down to extremes and within the what and how much total content you choose to end up excluding. While from a development POV both understanding/acknowledging that making a choice to water down your entire game, with the all but unavoidable level of cringy writing that almost always has to go into building towards some happily ever after harem ending wrap up written in by non-writers, will ultimately never payout or matter nearly as much to anybody (including those pro harem fanatics) in comparison to what is being served up at the start/middle meat of the game. Or you know...the defining period that 100% determines whether a game ends up being successful and/or sees a large amount of varied people wanting to play it or not.

If a development approach can essentially be a win with everybody for 50%+ of it's lifespan, and which ideally is going to extend past the point where the random extremist popping into a thread complaining he won't play a game that doesn't include a "true" harem ending ever actually matters towards the game's overall successful level (but who still likely ends up playing that first 50+ anyway if it offers an extensive amount of content), that is easily the most appealing development choice on the table nowadays/imo. And if in the end that means a player doesn't end up with that one uber rare drop off Vulak, or in this case that extra story wrap up scene or 2 with a girl you already got the opportunity to score with earlier....that realistically is never nearly as big a deal as locking people out of an entire raid zone or opportunity period.

Talking about extremes I never said you had to get everything in one sitting. I said that exclusion is bad and presented an example of how its bad. I never said hand over the goods fast and straight up easy. I said, exclusion should be the players choice. So youre way way way off on your assumption of what you think I said.
But, I do see that you like "choice" (quotations with a purpose). You strip any and all meaningfull choices by going harem.... Not even remotely close. Choice should be story based, not exclusion based. Unless you have a critical function to exclude content based on choice, then you shouldnt. If its just to have ANY choice in your game, you probably should just do you, and not try to cater.

You dont have to make a sappy happy ever after harem ending. You just need AN ending. Harem doesnt have to have impact on story progression. None at all if you dont want it to. You got three girls in the game? One needs to be the driving factor of the game, let her storyline show it and work to that point, but dont use it as an excuse to exclude content you make because you need a quickfix mechanic. There are plenty of games that does harem without having a "harem ending". I know its far easier, but Hallmarck endings are boring.

But I think we know what you want, so I honestly think you should make your game your way. You will anyway. And we will play it and rate it according to our points of interest. Present your vision that you burn to do, instead of making the game others want and you burn out halfway.

 

[Fatalmasterpiece]

but also forced relationships are death. the default girlfriend/wife, the guaranteed early game slut, the disgusting pedo-bait child bride you can't stop from sucking your dick.

so ideally I'd like all the girls to be possible, but none of them being forced on me. there should be a way to go through without scoring ANY of the girls. and there should be a way to get ALL the girls, but never easy or trivial. the challenge should grow with the number of girls but not be hardcoded to lock me out.

This is a really good point and something you see a lot in games. There is often a "vanilla" wife/gf option or the easy slut character thrown at the MC. Often these options aren't appealing because they lack any challenge or are simply meant as filler. Other times they are supposed to be the primary interest of the MC but meanwhile the player may be much more interested in someone else, yet have to go through these forced scenes. And why do these scenes always seem to take place in a toilet??

So I am in total agreement that it should be possible to completely miss out on a all characters. An easy way to write this for plot necessary scenes is to have the MC present but as a friend or begrudgingly. For example, yes they will go on the "date" but not romantically, only as a friend so that important event which happens at said date can still occur driving the story forward. (do this sparingly of course)

 

[Diconica]

Seems a bit unrealistic. Rarely in life do you get forced into making choices the way you want in a game.

Usually you if you get asked out by more than one person they aren't at the same time and you don't usually leave the one hanging just to find out if you are going to get asked out by someone else later that same day.

Generally if I have a date planned with someone I don't break it. My word means something to me. Also I can't think of a time in my life I wasn't able to schedule around issues.

How many times has two girls asked you out and both said we have to go out at 7PM tonight or we will never see you again.
Never ever fucking happens.
The only time I was asked out by more than one girl in my life it was a bit of a joke on me. I asked them why are they making me choose and they replied back about who said anything about choosing. I got rewarded for something I did two nights earlier.

Generally if you get into a situation where more than one girl is wanting you to pick them over another girl that can pretty much be linked back to you being an Fing idiot leading up to that point and not paying attention to how they are acting / feeling.
A friend of mine well call Mark just to give him a name. Was divorced but would keep going back and forth with his ex wife. He was also seeing her sister and another young lady. He wasn't quite about it they would see each other coming and going from his house. Well his birthday came around and his friends were having a party. These girls all knew different friends of his so all made sure they would end up at the party. Well it turned into an issue of choose. Mark acted like he was being put out by the girls. That pissed of most everyone in the party because their GFs thought he was a total ass ... Anyway I got him out of the house and told him he needed to go in and apologize for dragging them all through the shit... Mark again total shit and drunk on top of it goes on about how he doesn't give a fuck. So a few minutes later he's in the house with a black eye a few bruised ribs and a swollen wrist along with a bit of a bruised ego and apologize. The girls in near unison you had to have this explained to you by him. Him being me because I my rep was more on the lines of I never showed up twice with the same woman. Needless to say Mark had to find someone else.

That said I knew a guy in high school that had taught me a simple rule. Be honest with them upfront about seeing other people then they don't have a reason to bitch about it. Some of course will lie and say they are ok with it but when they come back to you later on over the issue you can confront them with the lie.

 

[Sennistrasz]

I like having to choose, but the game has to be upfront about who's available, so that I can plan ahead. Sometimes there is no in-game reason to be exclusive with a relationship that won't start getting into gear halfway through the game. But if the game is clear that we can only pick one, then I know from the start to reject all until the correct one appears.

 

[Diconica]

I like having to choose, but the game has to be upfront about who's available, so that I can plan ahead. Sometimes there is no in-game reason to be exclusive with a relationship that won't start getting into gear halfway through the game. But if the game is clear that we can only pick one, then I know from the start to reject all until the correct one appears.

It could turn out you get to the middle of the game and you passed up on all the good options.
Nice thing though its a game you can replay it. Wouldn't that be a nice cheat to have in RL.

 

[Fatalmasterpiece]

Seems a bit unrealistic. Rarely in life do you get forced into making choices the way you want in a game.

Would have to disagree. If you go out on Friday night with Lady 1 and then go out Saturday night with Lady 2 and Lady 1 calls to chat she may be a bit put off when learning that you're out with Lady 2. Not always the case of course but it gets more complicated with special occasions. Who do you spend holidays with or ask to go see that new movie? "Oh sure I will go see this movie with you Lady 1 although I already saw it with Lady 2!" Personally I have had to make choices like this quite often in real life. What do you think happens if you're at a club when you realize three women you have been casually dating are all there? Let me tell you, you have to start making choices!

 

[Sennistrasz]

It could turn out you get to the middle of the game and you passed up on all the good options.
Nice thing though its a game you can replay it. Wouldn't that be a nice cheat to have in RL.

I gave up restarting in games with free roam, it just takes too long for things that lose their appeal after the first time. If it was just simple choices I'm fine with restarting. Otherwise it's just way too much effort and I move on to another game.

 

[Diconica]

Would have to disagree. If you go out on Friday night with Lady 1 and then go out Saturday night with Lady 2 and Lady 1 calls to chat she may be a bit put off when learning that you're out with Lady 2. Not always the case of course but it gets more complicated with special occasions. Who do you spend holidays with or ask to go see that new movie? "Oh sure I will go see this movie with you Lady 1 although I already saw it with Lady 2!" Personally I have had to make choices like this quite often in real life. What do you think happens if you're at a club when you realize three women you have been casually dating are all there? Let me tell you, you have to start making choices!

That's not the scenario he gave though.
" For example, Friday night you get offered two dates but have to turn one down, ending a path. Or we all know the classic house fire scene where you can only save one character. "
Think of it as a menu choose date 1 or choose date 2. That's more the scenario.

As for the scenario you mentioned
If he had given a scenario like yours I would be inclined to agree. That said the problem there is of your own making. If you get a call while on a date excuse yourself and say its an important call and move away from the group you are on. You can always use the excuse you are out on a business dinner with a company client. Even if you aren't some hire up person. My boss dragged me along in case there was any technical details they needed answers to and to make it more than just him.

Another option is turn the phone off when on a date. Unless you are a medical doctor there isn't many times you are going to be that life or death needed. You can always use the excuse to call back later sorry my phone went dead.

We all make choices every single day making choices isn't the problem.
My issue comes when the choice I would normally make isn't there.

 

[Fatalmasterpiece]

That's not the scenario he gave though.
" For example, Friday night you get offered two dates but have to turn one down, ending a path. Or we all know the classic house fire scene where you can only save one character. "
Think of it as a menu choose date 1 or choose date 2. That's more the scenario.

As for the scenario you mentioned
If he had given a scenario like yours I would be inclined to agree. That said the problem there is of your own making. If you get a call while on a date excuse yourself and say its an important call and move away from the group you are on. You can always use the excuse you are out on a business dinner with a company client. Even if you aren't some hire up person. My boss dragged me along in case there was any technical details they needed answers to and to make it more than just him.

Another option is turn the phone off when on a date. Unless you are a medical doctor there isn't many times you are going to be that life or death needed. You can always use the excuse to call back later sorry my phone went dead.

We all make choices every single day making choices isn't the problem.
My issue comes when the choice I would normally make isn't there.

I'm the one who gave the scenario and yes, it essentially boils down to the same thing. In both my previous post and the original post you are referring to I was referring directly to a game like "Acting Lessons" where you are forced to choose a path of one single love interest. You may be able to fool around but eventually you are forced down one path and have to choose a single partner.
Or alternatively, a game like "Sisterly Lust" where you can literally end the game with something like 8 wives who all are happy sharing you.