- Thread starter Ryahn
- Start date
- Jul 10, 2017
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I'm well versed in fight back trolls and other cave dwelling creatures with a torch. You can insult me as much as you want, but rather than discuss cause or even attempt to rebuke actual facts, you already lost your argument. So "insert any speak to the hand meme here..."
- Dec 24, 2018
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When will people learn to just stop replying to Joshua_Tree and ignore him? The last couple of pages have been like 50% Joshua_Tree and people responding to him, nothing you say to him will stop him from whiteknighting Gumdrop, what's the point?
While I would not have worded it as such, I agree with Anas Khan in principle. @Joshua Tree, It might be correct that we do not have definite proof he has not bought new hardware, but gumdrop himself confirmed it to be a lie he made. Well over a year ago he crowed about how he has bought 3-5 (I do not know the exact number of the cuff) render machines with top grafic cards and that from then on all updates would be much faster. What came of it? The next update was about a month late, since then nothing at all on the update front, just ludicrous excuses.
With the machine park he HIMSELF claimed he has, even with slow work speed the renders should have been finished last autumn the latest! There is a ton of developers who bring out quality rendered updates, with proven less hardware than gumdrop cliamed for himself, regularly. There is enough circumstantial evidence that gumdrop simply lied about buying more computers, because if he did so, why does he not use them for what he claimed he bought them?
Then the idea gumdrop did not do anything at all until the X-mas sidestory has enough merit by the evidence. There is a huge number of one man/woman developers who bring out regular quality updates, so it can obviously be done. Gumdrop on the other hand broke several promises and deadlines for the still not made update, even a ludicrous long deadline of January he told he would keep since it is this much time. What happened? No update in January and the joke of excuses he made then were laid bare once the following dealines went puff three weeks later and now not a real dealine made at all. What the frak did he do in over a year? Most definitely not worked on the promised update. He has obviously nothing to show about the update, no sequences or some story hints, which should be existing if he did work on an update.
There are several more lies into the face of the audience by gumdrop, but the examples above are enough.
- Jul 10, 2017
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You can buy yourself all kinda toys, without actually use them. I got a neighbor that buy all kinda shit of the latest hype just because he can and idk, he silly that way. He hardly use any of it, but doesn't mean he doesn't have it. Buying several rendering machines doesn't necessary mean you get injected by the "effort" of actually using them. If a person is "lazy" (as many claim GD is), then a lazy person would never really become something else, regardless of how much gadgets you pimp him/her up with. If he decided to ride on his thumb for a year, doing jack shit, it doesn't matter how hardware he bought or not.
How transparent ANY creator chose to be, or not to be, that is on them. But none of them have to account for every penny they spend on whatever income they get from pledges on Patreon, from Subscribestar, Paypal or whatever monetizing platform they use, to their supporters. If I pledge to some creator (which I do a few of), I don't hassle them about what they spend that money on. If they need it to pay off utility bills, buy food, invest in hardware, whatever, I really don't care. Little more than I care what anyone else spend their income on.
Point fingers and accusations only get you so long without actual proof. There is many good creators out there, far better than GD, and who actually deliver. Also, there is many good creators out there that is not in the "lime light" or able to market themselves. So when people say "this and that" creator deserve more. Well, sure. but creators is creators of their own success (or downfall) as well. As I posted earlier, GD's xmas release had over 158000 downloads on SVSComics alone. There is a reason he got the support he have, and no matter how many levels of shit he get buried neck down in this thread. It doesn't matter in the grand picture of things.
- Apr 27, 2017
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It's like being in a time warp here with you all arguing with Josh, lol.
Look, for all you new folk let me explain a few things for you,
Josh, despite how long-winded his paragraphs can get, his arguments can be whittled down to this: He see's things purely from a 'What's legally binding standpoint.'
By that standard, Gumdrops hasn't broken the law, as there's no formal contract agreement for Patrons and creators, it's just donations towards a project that may or may not take off. There's no legal obligation to fulfill your promises as a creator, there's an ethical one, but not a legal. Therefore Josh see's it Gumdrops owes you all jack shit.
By all legal standards, he's right. Gumdrops isn't going to get arrested, he's not going to have legal charges filed against him, yadayada....
That doesn't mean what Gumdrops does isn't unethical, it doesn't mean he's justified, and it certainly doesn't mean he's in the right...
but he's not going to jail.
We have tried, many many times to argue how the ethics are just as important, ESPECIALLY on a market as volatile, and so heavily reliant on a mutually beneficial trusting relationship between creators and patrons as this. Josh will not meet you on this, he won't. To Josh, the story starts and ends with whether there's a lawyer and a legally binding contract involved. That's it.
It's why the vast majority of us have stopped arguing and just roll with it because I'll clue you all in, he ain't changed his mind the last 70+ pages ago, you ain't gonna be the 71st page to suddenly change his mind.
Josh will be here for the next 100+ pages, explaining how legally gumdrops isn't going to wake up one day on the chain-gang.
You're all welcome for this episode recap to the never-ending drama that is this meme of a thread.
Look, for all you new folk let me explain a few things for you,
Josh, despite how long-winded his paragraphs can get, his arguments can be whittled down to this: He see's things purely from a 'What's legally binding standpoint.'
By that standard, Gumdrops hasn't broken the law, as there's no formal contract agreement for Patrons and creators, it's just donations towards a project that may or may not take off. There's no legal obligation to fulfill your promises as a creator, there's an ethical one, but not a legal. Therefore Josh see's it Gumdrops owes you all jack shit.
By all legal standards, he's right. Gumdrops isn't going to get arrested, he's not going to have legal charges filed against him, yadayada....
That doesn't mean what Gumdrops does isn't unethical, it doesn't mean he's justified, and it certainly doesn't mean he's in the right...
but he's not going to jail.
We have tried, many many times to argue how the ethics are just as important, ESPECIALLY on a market as volatile, and so heavily reliant on a mutually beneficial trusting relationship between creators and patrons as this. Josh will not meet you on this, he won't. To Josh, the story starts and ends with whether there's a lawyer and a legally binding contract involved. That's it.
It's why the vast majority of us have stopped arguing and just roll with it because I'll clue you all in, he ain't changed his mind the last 70+ pages ago, you ain't gonna be the 71st page to suddenly change his mind.
Josh will be here for the next 100+ pages, explaining how legally gumdrops isn't going to wake up one day on the chain-gang.
You're all welcome for this episode recap to the never-ending drama that is this meme of a thread.
- Mar 8, 2018
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You evade the evidence and try to change the topic away here, I´m afraid. Nobody halfway sane buys a couple computers without the intention on using them! Especially since gumdrop himself told us for what the supposed computers should be used. Not even "The King" bought his Armada of Cadillacs just to have them.
Actually your last response again made me think you might be gumdrop in disgiuse or one of his white knights, because the way you go with technicalities, evading and the pure legal stuff. You have nothing else left for your defence. Gumdrop might not have broken any legal agreements in word, but he violated the spirit of said agreements many times.
In the business I work, there needs to be a trust above the words of a contract to work well, so I can tell you a contractor like gumdrop or you, with your only the words on paper are important stance, would have been blacklisted long ago.
- Jul 10, 2017
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lol.
I don't think anyone here can claim any ethical high ground on a site such as this dedicated to piracy though. Which I did remark on a few posts back. A creator can screw us over, but sure, we all screwing over many creators pirating their games as well. If we wanted to set the baseline down to ethical in this thread. We would need to throw out everyone not pledging to GD (present and past). If we just in for the free lunch, we can complain the food is bad all we want, but we didn't pay for it.
- Jul 10, 2017
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What evidence? Can you provide an actual statement from GD he didn't buy any hardware? If the claim is just he didn't provide any result from said hardware, it doesn't prove anything at all, other than he haven't done any work and being lazy, whatever.
If you get upset over violated agreements in the "gaming industry", adult or not. Damn son, you set yourself up for a lot of heartache. Epic store exclusives, the newest fad to rage over...
If you can refute any of what I wrote with actual facts proving other wise, you are more than welcome. If people want to throw rotten tomatoes at GD, please do, but at least do it for the right reasons. Bottom line, he faulted at provide what he said he would.
- Apr 27, 2017
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Then why am I here? By your own logic I should view this place as little more than a sink hole thieving away cash...I don't.
It's a convenient place to interact with potential customers, get feedback on your game, *cough* possibly release patches on. Why would so many creators engage with F95 if there was nothing to gain from it? We've gained dozens of potential customers through F95. It's unrealistic to expect people to sit around and wait months on end for the 'free' release. Either you can fight Capitalism and try block/stop all those pesky pirates...or embrace it, have them get the word out...for every ten that pirate, one will like your work enough they'll start donating.
- Jul 10, 2017
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Well... if we going by the 1 in 10.... and we can't really just look at this site alone. But torrent sites, and other places such as SVSComics and whatever else, where your game get shared. So by SVSComics metrics on GD's xmas release alone of 158000+ downloads. He would been buried in cash at the same level people want to bury him in shit.
I agree, this is a great place for creators to reach out to possible new fan's and supporters, but the ratio of 1 in 10, is not realistic imho. Also there is a lot of creators not using this site, or even have a "hate" relationship towards it (and similar sites).
If you use patreon for monetizing, you can look at yourself as running a small business imho. And as such, you need to roll with the punches and adapt, as you do with any business. The big difference is, if you run a small store, you don't expect 9 out of 10 to run out with items without paying (by using your numbers). As a creator I wouldn't really embraced a place like this, I would more acknowledge its existence and hope my product was good enough to get people to support it. If you want to compare bigger scheme of things, a bit like what CRPojektRED did with their Witcher games and not pursing copy protection. If its good people will pay. Didn't keep their games from not being copied though.
I don't want to disrespect you or, any ill will etc. I did a look up on Patreon on "lostraven" and I guess that is your page. With 2 patreons. I don't know your work, or what games you been involved in. But I'm quite sure you deserve more support than that for your work and effort. I said earlier that the only thing true in regard of piracy is, something pirated doesn't equal a lost sale. But there is an awful lot of people that just settle with the free lunch and never tip the waiter to put it like that.
EDIT: noticed you was writer on Taffy Tales, and looked up that page too. Another game that does deserve more than 57 patreons when over 241000 downlodas on SVSComics.
(Sigh) And here comes the broad brush again, since you are running out of other counter, I see. You have over sixteenhundred posts, but seem to never have gotten the differences to some other sites. Unlike rip sites like SVSComics, F95 is much more of a "patrons & pirates" discussion forum with a ton of developers active members themselves. Secondly, did it never occur to you that posters other than you deeply involved in discussions are mostly (ex-)donors, testers, fans or users of the free versions?
Yes, there are some go on the forum and take what you like users, but most of those are not active much in discussions.
You delibarately do not acknowledge the concept that you do not need physical representation to prove something beyond reasonable doubt, interesting since you are riding much on the legal wording horse. Ask yourself how probable it is that gumdrop bought several thousands of dollar worth computer stuff and does not use it? Computers are not post stamps you gather. There is something called historical, systematic and teleological approaches and using them leads to conclusions.
You purely grammatical approach is lacking since gumdrop has proven himself not trustworthy enough on his given word.
- Jul 10, 2017
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Common sense says not investing in the future of your business is a bad thing. If you along the line end up run your business into a ditch that is a whole other thing. There is other creators out there that say they will quit jobs, hire people, invest in new hardware. But do we have much proof of any of this happen as well? (unless the creator is very transparent and share everything down to the last toilet paper he/she used) Even though they might churn out regular updates. It doesn't prove anything at all. Also, just because you buy a whole lot of hardware, doesn't necessary mean said hardware stay idle doing nothing, it could be doing other things than what it supposed to do.
This site is a lot of things, and mean different from user to user. But exempt of the fact its a site based on, and focused on piracy and free sharing it's not. Interaction with creators is great, and good discussions about games is nice. But if you look around on different threads on this forum. You see a whole lot of toxic posts as well. As soon as a creator delay a release people get antsy and the verbal sticks come out. The good discussions is sadly a bit far between.
The only thing you can prove with GD is he didn't provide what he said, when he said (multiple times). If that make him a liar, lazy etc? Until he prove otherwise, and release something of value, sure.
Well, he talks the talk but does he walk the walk? A quote from The Man, The Legend:
"Your contribution realizes the following:
I want to reiterate that this game will remain free to everyone during and after development. If you DO choose to support, you will receive the latest update of the game before anyone else. Non-patrons gain access to the same content an additional month after patrons, but it will be free to those whom wish to wait.
Whether or not you choose to support, I truly hope you communicate to me with your feedback and constructive criticism of the game. Your collective involvement in the creative and development process will be absolutely integral for its success. After all, the game is for YOU!
Thank you!
For your faith and undying support.
Kyle,
Gumdrop Games "
$1,000 – reached! per month
Render time is a fixed, agonizingly slow variable in development. Reaching this goal would allow me to shave off tens of hours -- possibly even days of rendering time by upgrading both graphical and computer processors.
$3,000 – reached! per month
Full-time investment into development is truly a pivotal point for this project. As of now, I've been dividing the month between my work and development, giving me blurry comprehension in when I can exactly complete an installment. If this becomes my work, crystal clarity along with faster delivery will be achievable.
I can read the words individually but after a year without an update I can't understand what all these words put together mean....
"Your contribution realizes the following:
- Upgrade computer hardware for faster rendering times, faster and more images per update!
- Recruit additional developers to bring musical score, sound design, animation and more polishing elements into the game!
- Allow me to work full time on game development, giving a complete investment of time and focus into producing the best game I can muster!
I want to reiterate that this game will remain free to everyone during and after development. If you DO choose to support, you will receive the latest update of the game before anyone else. Non-patrons gain access to the same content an additional month after patrons, but it will be free to those whom wish to wait.
Whether or not you choose to support, I truly hope you communicate to me with your feedback and constructive criticism of the game. Your collective involvement in the creative and development process will be absolutely integral for its success. After all, the game is for YOU!
Thank you!
For your faith and undying support.
Kyle,
Gumdrop Games "
$1,000 – reached! per month
Render time is a fixed, agonizingly slow variable in development. Reaching this goal would allow me to shave off tens of hours -- possibly even days of rendering time by upgrading both graphical and computer processors.
$3,000 – reached! per month
Full-time investment into development is truly a pivotal point for this project. As of now, I've been dividing the month between my work and development, giving me blurry comprehension in when I can exactly complete an installment. If this becomes my work, crystal clarity along with faster delivery will be achievable.
I can read the words individually but after a year without an update I can't understand what all these words put together mean....
- Jul 10, 2017
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- Apr 27, 2017
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A.) Nice try Josh, I'm a writer hired onto game projects, not a solo independent creator. My patreon, account is little more than a payment portal for some creators. Though I do occasionally recieve a friendly dollar tip from elsewhere. B.) Why are you treating that 1 in 10 as an absolute fact? It's not, it was an obvious example to me just saying 'advertisment sells' Not me saying I LITERALLY expect 1 in 10. EDIT: You're on the old Taffy Tales page, we have over 1000 patreons.
- Jul 10, 2017
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Nice try? It was not a stab at you, or anyone else. Didn't know it was an old page just assumed it was the one as it came up in search. Still, 1000 patreons seem few with how much attention/downloads there been. You was the one doing the "1 in 10" numbers. I didn't take it as an absolute, I just used the numbers you threw out. Since when did it become a crime to think people deserve more than what they get? doh...
Yeah advertisement sells, but most advertisers doesn't hand out their products and tell people to pay if they feel like. Basics of advertisements is to get people interested in what you sell/offer.