HTML Abandoned Dubious Practice [v0.3] [Dubious Developers]

[desmosome]

I can understand that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some people will inevitably like the look of extreme bimbofication. Probably a minority, but extreme versions of fetishes usually do only appeal to the hardcore fans of such fetishes. So what I feel like the ultimate consideration for the game should be is if the devs are making a bimbofication game? If that is the goal, well there is nothing more to be said. If bimbofication is not what the game is all about (to be honest, it didn't feel like it until stage 4) then we could make some changes.

Another consideration is if our goal to is create a beauty, or is it to make a caricature? The difference here is basically the difference in eastern and western plastic surgery. Eastern plastic surgery (especially in Korea) is all about balance in accordance to the standard aesthetics. There is a term "gangman girl," which refers to every girl in gangnam looking the same due to the "standard beautification" surgeries.


On the other hand, the concept of plastic surgery in western society is not so positive. We often just hear about botched jobs and celebrities going overboard and destroying their faces. I think there is kind of a difference in philosophy. Eastern plastic surgery is mostly about trimming it down and overall balance. Western plastic surgery all about adding shit. You end up with stuff like this.

Still, there are many cases that are done with moderation and just fixing facial flaws.
Blake Lively.


So again, is the surgery in this game a matter of beatification? Or is it bimbofication for the sake of putting a stamp on this bitch saying "corrupted to oblivion."

Alex, Stage 4, Manipulation
I think the general consensus among everyone is that Alex's Stage 4 Manipulation is very "meh". Myself and Cassie are also in agreement about this, and we've decided to redo her look for that stage, particularly her face.
The idea was that Alex would become something like a Stepford Wife; the picture-perfect Beverly Hills housewife with flawless features and dressed to perfection. To that end she would have gotten a nose job, facelift, etc. Thing is, Stepford Wives and "Stepfordization" aren't my thing at all, and it looks like I might have gone a bit overboard trying to compensate.
That being said; is it just the face and expression that you guys find flawed, or is it the overall look in general? The outfit, hair, pose, etc? Or is it the whole "Stepford" style that doesn't appeal to you? I'd like to know exactly what needs reworking, otherwise I could end up making her... worse.

The Stepford Wife thing is what I imagined the route to be going towards. To be honest, I feel like step 3 versions of all routes capture the essence of each route rather well. if we classify the step 3 as the sweet spot of each transformation, step 4 and beyond could be to enhance the features that make them so and add more sex appeal. Pastel form fitting dresses is cool. I like the handbag and posture. Some boob/ass job is ok as long as it doesn't go overboard (I think boobs are slightly too big). Hourglass figure is a nice one to aim towards if it's not done excessively. The face is where it all goes wrong. Lips are off putting. Expression is basically "crazy bimbo." Not an example of a stepford wife by any means.


I have not finished the other routes, but I did look at the pictures. I think step 4 domination is probably the worst one out of the 3, just in terms of her appearance and how much it deteriorates from the step 3 version. I am not too familiar with gothic styles, but all I know is 3 is a hot goth and 4 is a scientific experiment gone wrong.

Harley Quinn on seduction route seems mostly ok though. The boobs are a bit too large, but the face is mostly saved. Well she just looks like Margot Robbie so I ain't complaining.


Again, I just make these suggestions with the assumption that this game is not a full on bimbofication game. In that case, some routes of some characters should embrace the whole bimbo fetish, while others try to strike a better balance between sexyfication and staying true to their route description.

edit: Ah I just read the other posts saying bimbo is the main fetish of the game. In that case, go ahead. Do your worst. I ain't demanding the nature and vision of the game to change. There were indeed hints that the MC's preferences were leaning towards bimbo (the porn clips, some dialogue lines), so it might have been my misconception based on the first 3 transformations not really resembling bimbofication.

 

[Dubious Developers]

I mean, I guess it depends what you mean by "bimbo". If by bimbo you mean blonde airhead, then no, not all girl will be bimbos. But if by bimbo you "any woman with plastic surgery who likes lots of sex" then yeah, that's the core of the game.

That's why I prefer to say the game is about slutification. But it seems people have a larger definition of bimbo than I was expecting. Duly noted.

 

[desmosome]

The critical issue here is that the game is presented as something with multiple routes that each have different ends appealing to different fetishes, and at no point (even in the game itself, up until shortly before stage 4) is it made clear that "every route is just another flavor of bimbo". It's only logical for people to assume that bimbofication is just one of the routes, especially when the very first choice in the game (what to do with Elizabeth) seems to pretty clearly be between "bimbo" and "not bimbo" options.

If a genre tag is present, that just means it exists somewhere in the game, not that it's the primary focus. There's a reason a big portion of my post history is me going into threads for games tagged with Mind Control and asking if it's a major focus or just something that pops up in one or two scenes for plot reasons. There are dozens of games on this site with a Bimbofication tag that don't have it as the primary focus (which I know from firsthand experience, being a mind control fetishist who doesn't like bimbos). When something is the primary focus, it should ideally be telegraphed within the game's description, or at least mentioned in the developer's notes or something. And the game itself - some internal monologue during the intro where the protagonist explains his taste in women would go a long way.

I'll be the first to say that a game should stick to the developer's original vision and people shouldn't ask it to turn into something else, but there was definitely a communication issue that kept people from knowing what that vision was. I'm usually pretty good at getting a sense of what direction the developers want to take a game, so it's really telling that even I was blindsided by this despite playing through every prior update.

Pretty much my thoughts on the bimbofication blindsiding us. I actually reported the OP to add the tags in the genre to the tags on top, but they seemed to have missed the bimbofication lol.

Basically, I saw the overview, looked at the first preview pic, saw the very different styles of the routes, got interested and started playing. There were subtle hints in the game that the MC preferes bimbos, but it didn't really click until the stage 4 renders were shown.

As gregor was saying, I pictured the stage 4 silhouette for manipulation to be the typical trophy wife. I figured she would at most get a "classy bimbo" look. Instead, she became too much of a barbie doll bimbo. This route especially should try to lean more towards classy rather than overtly sexualized bimbo slut face.

Out of the stages 4s, the seduction route has the most reasonable face. It maintains some semblance to the prior face, and keeps a more standard definition of beauty. As a whole, I think this stage 4 is quite acceptable. People have different criteria for what too big is for the boobs, so I won't mention it. It certainly fits her route at least.

Stage 4 domination is essentially "broken." Her face is not "pleasing" to look at and doesn't resemble the prior version at all. In essence, her face is nothing more than a fleshlight with plump lips. That is probably the goal in this route, so that is understandable. Her hair is also matching the broken fuckdoll style, but it's too thin imo. Could have a bit more hair, long or short. Her clothes are pretty unappealing. She doesn't have a noticeable choker because of the weird turtleneck long sleeve thing she has. I think the clothing could be entirely redesigned while giving her a upgraded choker compared to the previous version. I don't know about others, but facial piercings have a limit to where they can be stylish. A single nose ring and a lip ring (like stage 3) can be pretty hot even to someone like me who don't prefer tattoos/piercings. When you start adding multiple rings everywhere, it kinda loses the appeal. Her expression could use some work too. She comes off more as a horny slut trying to seduce someone, rather than a submissive sex slave.

 

[desmosome]

I mean, I guess it depends what you mean by "bimbo". If by bimbo you mean blonde airhead, then no, not all girl will be bimbos. But if by bimbo you "any woman with plastic surgery who likes lots of sex" then yeah, that's the core of the game.

That's why I prefer to say the game is about slutification. But it seems people have a larger definition of bimbo than I was expected. Duly noted.

By bimbo, I am only referring to the looks. I already picked up that this game isn't about making dumb bimbo sluts. Well, except Buffy but that was an accident lol.

 

[desmosome]

Last post by me on this subject.

If you ask the general population about bimbofication, the majority will not like extreme transformations. People have different standards of extreme, but the stage 4 so far likely falls under "extreme" for the average player.

That said, this is a free game without a patreon. It's a passion project, so ultimately the only thing that matters is the devs' vision. Let's say the dev tones down the bimbo and listens to the feedback of the people that are not too into bimbofication. Ok, that could please some people, but what if it compromises the vision? What if the devs lose motivation? What if the characters are not reflecting the state they envisioned at this stage?

The artist asked for feedback, so I left my thoughts, but ultimately the devs should just make what they personally enjoy.

I think the game thread and the game itself could give some more heads up on the direction of the game though. I played Bimbo Life Coach up to the point of full bimbofication on the 2 main girls. I knew what I was getting into and the writing was excellent, so I enjoyed the process until the ugly full bimbo models overcame my interest in the story. There was no need to have a discussion because full bimbo is very clearly the objective of that game.

 

[youpla]

If you ask the general population about bimbofication, the majority will not like extreme transformations. People have different standards of extreme, but the stage 4 so far likely falls under "extreme" for the average player.

I wonder where are your sources. You're assuming something that is, in no way, reliable and sounds more like a personal point of view.

A minor point, but from a story standpoint it's easier to do the gradual physical transformation in DD, where it can be handwaved as a result of the drugs, than in this game, where it would involve the character having several rounds of invasive cosmetic surgery within a few weeks of each other.

Not that you couldn't write your way around that, but it is a complication.

Once again, you don't understand that games don't have to be realistic. It's fantasy !
Are you ready to wait for 3-6 months in game time between each girl's surgery ?
Are you ready to have a precise explanation, with scientific demonstrations, how the brainwashing machine works ?
Are you ready to explain to 99% of the people, here on F95Zone, that a 18 years old teen with 90D breasts with childish traits, being totally ignorant about sex, and then having incest with her father and lesbian sex with her best friend in less than one month, is something that would never happen in real life ? Care to explain to every fan of Mr.Dot's game "Dating my daughter" how Extreme and Unrealistic it is ?


Ooooh man... Fortunately, developers can create games that are not so focused on realistic coherence... Or else, everything would be so boring...

 

[desmosome]

I wonder where are your sources. You're assuming something that is, in no way, reliable and sounds more like a personal point of view.

It's an educated guess. Are you taking the opposite stance? Feel free to make a poll if you are curious. Since extreme can mean many different things, go about it another way. Post the pics of stage 3 and stage 4 and ask people what looks better to them. I predict 9:1 skew in favor of stage 3.

And maybe read the whole post before getting defensive.

 

[youpla]

Don't turn back the problem on me. I have nothing to prove and wouldn't try making polls to demonstrate my point of view.
It's YOU who have made assumptions : prove them if you feel the need, but don't try to hide your own opinion behind a statement that is, right on on the go, without solid cornerstone.

 

[ashrana88]

It always baffles me considering the overwhelming majority of games you can find on this sight are nigh identical and incredibly generic, that there is always an obnoxious amount of complaints whenever there are games for different interests and fetishes. If you have a protagonist that isn't male, an artstyle or written format that isn't uncanny 3D CG, or a game that isn't a generic incest game, there are always an absurd number of posts demanding it be changed.

Trials in Tainted Space and Corruption of Champions 2 are some of my absolute favourite games because of the focus on positive empathetic relationships, surprisingly rare focus on futanari, great options for a female protagonist, fun bimbofication, and a dedication to high quality writing and storytelling. Yet people are so incredibly indulgent that there isn't generic ugly looking 3D CG and animations, that you have to read, and that there isn't an obsessive focus on masculine characters.

As far as the game goes, I really like the points I see from the developers on positive portrayals of sexuality, and not treating women inherently derogatorily in regard to the fantasy of hypersexuality. I personally don't have any interest in a male protagonist (not that it matters), but if there is a strong focus on the women and their enjoyment than I absolutely love that.

I like unrealistic fantastical proportions as long as they don't go into "hyper" territory. How I define that is vague, but basically breasts can be unrealistically huge as long as they look like they fit on the frame of the person. A good example is the difference between an artist like DevilHS (or the art in fenoxo games) and someone like Sparrow. With the first sexual attributes can be large and titillating, but aren't separate from the anatomical framing.

I'm a weirdo in that I greatly enjoy smart bimbos and shame free hypersexuality, so I'm glad with the options provided thus far (even though my personal engagement wouldn't involve men at all, but obviously that is up to personal preference). It would be nice to see choices that allow for bubbly, valley girl esque aesthetics without the connotation of low intelligence. For an unexplainable reason I really enjoy that type of aesthetic and even the bubbly empathetic form of speech and seduction, but the common associations of non-consent, low intelligence, and male domination are a turn off.

The renders could use some work/tweaks, but not due to "smaller proportions", more so just to be more titillating and attractive or maybe adjustments to facial features in general, and your previous work before the game is already excellent. I'm all for expressions of hyper femininity and pillowy lips, so I hope you don't focus on naysayers too much.

Obviously sex with men will be an unavoidable focus for the game and my personal tastes shouldn't change that, but it would be nice if the emphasis was mostly on appreciating the women, lesbian scenes being a possibility, and the male renders just generally not being an eyesore.

 

[Rosen King]

I actually reported the OP to add the tags in the genre to the tags on top, but they seemed to have missed the bimbofication lol.

Oh wow, I didn't even notice that it was missing from the tags up top. While that should definitely be addressed, I would honestly give that a pass (for now) on its involvement in how people were caught off guard by stage 4. Anyone who played the intro, or even looks at the title image, would see that bimbofication is in the game - as an option. So yeah, definitely needs to be added to the tags, but it would still catch people off guard.

I mean, I guess it depends what you mean by "bimbo". If by bimbo you mean blonde airhead, then no, not all girl will be bimbos. But if by bimbo you "any woman with plastic surgery who likes lots of sex" then yeah, that's the core of the game.

That's why I prefer to say the game is about slutification. But it seems people have a larger definition of bimbo than I was expecting. Duly noted.

Well, "bimbo" might be a bit of a misnomer since it's more about the "bimbo body", but ultimately the word used for it doesn't matter as long as you properly communicate what to expect. Call it "extreme body modification" or whatever, as long as it's clear that it's going to be present across all of the choices given to you.

It always baffles me considering the overwhelming majority of games you can find on this sight are nigh identical and incredibly generic, that there is always an obnoxious amount of complaints whenever there are games for different interests and fetishes. If you have a protagonist that isn't male, an artstyle or written format that isn't uncanny 3D CG, or a game that isn't a generic incest game, there are always an absurd number of posts demanding it be changed.

You're mixing up two unrelated issues. Very few people here are complaining that the game shouldn't be about what it's about. The problem is that they didn't know it would be that kind of game until they had already sunk a large amount of time into it. As I said, I'll be the first to say that a game should stick to its intended vision, and I've seen tons of games where people demand that it be something it was clearly never meant to be. But that's not what happened here. People said they were caught off guard when the end results ended up as something they weren't aiming for, and when the devs asked them to explain what they disliked about the current end result, they answered.

 

[youpla]

The problem is that they didn't know it would be that kind of game until they had already sunk a large amount of time into it.

Let's take a look at the tags given in the first post of this topic :

Male protagonist, Mind Control, Corruption, Bimbofication, HTML, Trainer, 3DCG, Big ass, Big tits, Oral Sex, Body Modification, Spanking, Handjob, Male Domination, Stripping, Titfuck, Vaginal Sex

And let me post, again, some pictures of this first post :






Are people blind ? Or did they launch the game as fast as possible, without taking a look as its presentation ?

The first picture clearly shows, in the shadows, how the secretary will end : exagerated big boobs, bimboish attitude on the left, slutty looks on the right.
The second one shows that there is something beyond stage 3 where the girls are already modified, limiting themselves to realistic but nevertheless very heavy changes in this stage 3. However, the silhouettes let everyone know ther's a stage 4, so something even heavier in term of body modifications : bigger breasts, thinner hips, and looks that are much more extreme than in stage 3. The shapes don't lie : it was pretty obvious that Alex would have extreme big breasts.


Really, guys... The first post was self-explanatory. If you didn't know what the game was all about, maybe it's your fault and not the developers'. Or else you should explain how I launched the game myself while knowing, after some read at this first post, perfectly what kind of game Dubious Practice would be...

 

[gregers]

Once again, you don't understand that games don't have to be realistic. It's fantasy !
Are you ready to wait for 3-6 months in game time between each girl's surgery ?
Are you ready to have a precise explanation, with scientific demonstrations, how the brainwashing machine works ?
Are you ready to explain to 99% of the people, here on F95Zone, that a 18 years old teen with 90D breasts with childish traits, being totally ignorant about sex, and then having incest with her father and lesbian sex with her best friend in less than one month, is something that would never happen in real life ? Care to explain to every fan of Mr.Dot's game "Dating my daughter" how Extreme and Unrealistic it is ?


Ooooh man... Fortunately, developers can create games that are not so focused on realistic coherence... Or else, everything would be so boring...

I cordially invite you to consider the implications of the words "a minor point". But other than that, boy howdy, you sure showed that straw man. Wouldn't want to be in their shoes right now.

 

[Voilsh]

Stage 4 is Too Extreme
A few folks have said that Stage 4 "goes too far" or is too extreme (for Domination, Seduction, and Manipulation). This is actually kind of surprising to me, because "extreme" bimbofication, transformation, and body-modification - boobs the size of yoga balls, lips that look like slugs, absurdly-thing waits, etc. - is a real turn-off for me, and is something I actively try to avoid!

I'm glad you clarified that, I don't like these "circus clown level" corruption things either, and reading the comments it seemed like that was what the game was for. Full corruption for me has to be sexy, not so ridiculous it's a turn off.
Now I safely can try the game at least

 

[Fiddlesticks 3DX]

I'm glad you clarified that, I don't like these "circus clown level" corruption things either, and reading the comments it seemed like that was what the game was for. Full corruption for me has to be sexy, not so ridiculous it's a turn off.
Now I safely can try the game at least

Sure thing! Glad I could clear things up for you!

As I mentioned earlier, I prefer to keep the proportions believable or realistic, almost like you could easily imagine one of these characters being a real-life Instagram model or pornstar. What you saw with all of Alex's Stage 4 designs is a good idea of the limits I'm comfortable doing, and no character in the game will go beyond that (save one minor character in a later update). That's actually one of the very first things I said to Cassie when we were talking about me joining the game!

So I'm actually quite happy (and relieved) to hear that the majority of people would prefer me to tone things down, rather than scale the proportions up!

 

[riji]

Bimbos & Bimbofication are pretty much the main focus of the game, so nothing is going to change on that front, sadly. I'm glad you enjoyed Alex's Stage 3 Domination look, but I understand if you felt her Stage 4 was too much. As I mentioned in my previous comment, I'm going to collect some feedback and see if there's some areas I might be able to touch up. So feel free to let me know if there's anything in particular you think could be changed.

Stage 4 is Too Extreme
A few folks have said that Stage 4 "goes too far" or is too extreme (for Domination, Seduction, and Manipulation). This is actually kind of surprising to me, because "extreme" bimbofication, transformation, and body-modification - boobs the size of yoga balls, lips that look like slugs, absurdly-thing waits, etc. - is a real turn-off for me, and is something I actively try to avoid!
So I'd really like to get some details on exactly what it is about Alex's Stage 4 (again, across all routes) that you guys find or consider extreme? Are Domination Alex's lips too plump? Are Seduction Alex's tits too big? Are the outfits too much?

Lips that fat and baloony tits of that size, as well as other body modifications that look like they will impair even basic functions like talking and walking up the stairs, are extreme. G-cup is already plenty big, for example.

But, even though I enjoy the mind manipulation aspect of it and the quality of renders, I do realize now that I am probably not your TA, so my opinion is probably not exactly what you seek.

 

[Fiddlesticks 3DX]

I like unrealistic fantastical proportions as long as they don't go into "hyper" territory. How I define that is vague, but basically breasts can be unrealistically huge as long as they look like they fit on the frame of the person. A good example is the difference between an artist like DevilHS (or the art in fenoxo games) and someone like Sparrow. With the first sexual attributes can be large and titillating, but aren't separate from the anatomical framing.

I'm a weirdo in that I greatly enjoy smart bimbos and shame free hypersexuality, so I'm glad with the options provided thus far (even though my personal engagement wouldn't involve men at all, but obviously that is up to personal preference). It would be nice to see choices that allow for bubbly, valley girl esque aesthetics without the connotation of low intelligence. For an unexplainable reason I really enjoy that type of aesthetic and even the bubbly empathetic form of speech and seduction, but the common associations of non-consent, low intelligence, and male domination are a turn off.

Completely in agreement with you there, man!

I'm a bit of a weird one too. When I talk about loving "bimbos" and "bimbofication", I don't necessarily mean the stereotypical blonde-haired, bubbly, dumb-as-a-brick cheerleader clad in bright pink, with big tits and plumped-up lips who'll suck a cock because she's told it tastes like bubblegum. In fact, I find that aesthetic kinda' boring for the most part (although there are exceptions).

It's very much the "shame-free hypersexuality" (as you put it ) that I love. Wearing slutty clothes because she loves to look like a tease, getting bigger tits because she loves to feel like sexy as hell, fucking strangers left right and center because she just loves to fuck! "She's a slut, she knows it, and she loves it" kinda' thing. Two of my favorite artists (well, they're more like a duo) are Krash & Fabs, and I draw a lot of inspiration from their "Krashed Girls".
There's a couple of different descriptors or terms that I've found to describe my personal preference; "Moral Degeneration" or "Slutification" being the best examples. I think "Bimbofication" has just become a catchall term for the whole "woman turned into shameless sluts" kink, and it's the one most people are familiar with, so it's used most often.

Also a big fan of DevilHS and Sparrow myself! Oh, and there will definitely be lesbian scenes in the game!

 

[Fiddlesticks 3DX]

Lips that fat and baloony tits of that size, as well as other body modifications that look like they will impair even basic functions like talking and walking up the stairs, are extreme. G-cup is already plenty big, for example.

But, even though I enjoy the mind manipulation aspect of it and the quality of renders, I do realize now that I am probably not your TA, so my opinion is probably not exactly what you seek.

Yep, G-Cup is pretty much the limit of how big I'd make the girls.

Hey, as long as you're enjoying the game, any feedback is welcome! Doesn't have to be about the renders either, it can be about some of the story points or anything!

 

[desmosome]

Sure thing! Glad I could clear things up for you!

As I mentioned earlier, I prefer to keep the proportions believable or realistic, almost like you could easily imagine one of these characters being a real-life Instagram model or pornstar. What you saw with all of Alex's Stage 4 designs is a good idea of the limits I'm comfortable doing, and no character in the game will go beyond that (save one minor character in a later update). That's actually one of the very first things I said to Cassie when we were talking about me joining the game!

So I'm actually quite happy (and relieved) to hear that the majority of people would prefer me to tone things down, rather than scale the proportions up!

Quick question on the fetish. Stage 4 domination/manipulation. Is this beautiful/sexy/pleasing to look at to you, others on the team, and bimbo aficionados? Or is it more of a corruption angle, where the desired look is not exactly about making a "hot" woman, but more on just slutifying them as much as possible to symbolize their behavioral change?

You mention shame free hypersexuality, but there is nothing that ties this sort of behavioral development to the typical bimbo look, is there? So it seems to me that the bimbo fetish is more about the looks than the personality. Basically, I am curious if the appeal is because the bimbo look is sexy to those who are really into the fetish, or if it's more of a destructive fetish where you enjoy the degradation of their once pristine features into a silicone riddled anomaly.

I could draw parallels to the hentai version with nasty arm pit hairs and stuff. That is a destructive fetish where the woman undergoes so much moral degeneration and debauchery that they grow out their hair and do the arms behind their head pose for everyone to see. I'm sure there are some rare individuals who find arm pit hair sexy, but I'd venture a guess that most people who like this fetish is into it because of the corruption/moral degeneration.

 

[riji]

Yep, G-Cup is pretty much the limit of how big I'd make the girls.

Hey, as long as you're enjoying the game, any feedback is welcome! Doesn't have to be about the renders either, it can be about some of the story points or anything!

Stage 4 looks like a P cups or something already.

 

[Fiddlesticks 3DX]

Quick question on the fetish. Stage 4 domination/manipulation. Is this beautiful/sexy/pleasing to look at to you, others on the team, and bimbo aficionados? Or is it more of a corruption angle, where the desired look is not exactly about making a "hot" woman, but more on just slutifying them as much as possible to symbolize their behavioral change?

You mention shame free hypersexuality, but there is nothing that ties this sort of behavioral development to the typical bimbo look, is there? So it seems to me that the bimbo fetish is more about the looks than the personality. Basically, I am curious if the appeal is because the bimbo look is sexy to those who are really into the fetish, or if it's more of a destructive fetish where you enjoy the degradation of their once pristine features into a silicone riddled anomaly.

I could draw parallels to the hentai version with nasty arm pit hairs and stuff. That is a destructive fetish where the woman undergoes so much moral degeneration and debauchery that they grow out their hair and do the arms behind their head pose for everyone to see. I'm sure there are some rare individuals who find arm pit hair sexy, but I'd venture a guess that most people who like this fetish is into it because of the corruption/moral degeneration.

All I can say is I don't like arm pit hair.

As for the rest, sounds more like a philosophical debate, and I don't feel like going down that rabbit hole.