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VN Ren'Py Completed Elsaverse: Transitions [Ep. 1-7] [Tora Productions]

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moskyx

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I'm not going to tell anyone how to feel, but I feel like people tend to forget what happened in Elsa's Nightmares (maybe because we were 'immersed' in Elsa's troubles?). The thing is that Elsa physically abused Jason. Okay, it was part of her she may not be aware it was there, but it was still herself, not any external element. I'd say that's a way harder no-no in any relationship than 'cheating' on her many months later, when it's obvious that their relationship hasn't recovered from that and is barely alive (also, Trisha seems to have a power that induced Jason to fall for her anyway), so I find it kind of weird to feel 'betrayed' as a reader by Jason's actions. I mean, at this point in his relationship with Elsa, if he were my friend I'd be encouraging him to move on and forget her. Some things, you just can't accept.
 
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L0MBR0

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I'm not going to tell anyone how to feel, but I feel like people tend to forget what happened in Elsa's Nightmares (maybe because we were 'immersed' in Elsa's troubles?). The thing is that Elsa physically abused Jason. Okay, it was part of her she may not be aware it was there, but it was still herself, not any external element. I'd say that's a way harder no-no in any relationship than 'cheating' on her many months later, when it's obvious that their relationship hasn't recovered from that and is barely alive (also, Trisha seems to have a power that induced Jason to fall for her anyway), so I find it kind of weird to feel 'betrayed' as a reader by Jason's actions. I mean, at this point in his relationship with Elsa, if he were my friend I'd be encouraging him to move on and forget her. Some things, you just can't accept.
Agreed, although if I were Jason I would have broken it off with her, not go and cheat behind her back. Two wrongs don't make a right, but that's just me.
 
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moskyx

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Agreed, although if I were Jason I would have broken it off with her, not go and cheat behind her back. Two wrongs don't make a right, but that's just me.
Sure, and it's obvious none of them know how to properly talk about it and take the right action, that's why I said I'd be pushing him to break it off already. But I was talking about people (readers) who seem to forget/overlook the abuse part and only feel hurt for his cheating (in which powers might have been a key factor). If someone really cares about Jason as a character (and also about Elsa/Jason as a couple), then they should have felt terrible back then, not just now. And I don't remember people saying anything bad about her, then.
 

Tlaero

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Nov 24, 2018
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I definitely fall in the "some people" category here. I find myself getting invested in these stories (rather than viewing it from the third person's perspective) and so with Jason, I kinda assumed his role in the story (even when we didn't get the option of changing to our own name). So when "the sweet guy we first played when romancing Elsa start to cheat on her in her own bed" it's like me being forced to become a cheater which is something I thoroughly despise, hence the end of the story for me. I'm not judging Tlaero's direction here, but I kinda blame her for making these stories so damn immersive and that's paying a compliment. I enjoyed Elsaverse up until recent developments and will replay those early stories from time to time.
I understand. Thank you for getting so involved in the games. It is, indeed, a compliment.

They are going to have to work through their issues, and it's going to take some time. Something I wanted to show was that there are real downsides to getting these powers. Some of them are overt (you have bad people out to get you) and some of them are internal (the added stress and responsibility). I understand how you feel, though.

I will say that the game that comes after this one, Chasing Beth, doesn't involve Elsa or Jason at all, and it does make things better for at least one, if not three of the characters you know from the original 4 games.

Tlaero
 
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ename144

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I'm not going to tell anyone how to feel, but I feel like people tend to forget what happened in Elsa's Nightmares (maybe because we were 'immersed' in Elsa's troubles?). The thing is that Elsa physically abused Jason. Okay, it was part of her she may not be aware it was there, but it was still herself, not any external element. I'd say that's a way harder no-no in any relationship than 'cheating' on her many months later, when it's obvious that their relationship hasn't recovered from that and is barely alive (also, Trisha seems to have a power that induced Jason to fall for her anyway), so I find it kind of weird to feel 'betrayed' as a reader by Jason's actions. I mean, at this point in his relationship with Elsa, if he were my friend I'd be encouraging him to move on and forget her. Some things, you just can't accept.
So I've finally been working my way through the Elsaverse and having reached the end of Transitions I find myself firmly in the "did not like Jason cheating" camp. As much as I respect the argument you make here, and as late to the party as I am, I feel the need to disagree.

You're absolutely right that what happened to Jason in Elsa's Nightmares was far more significant than that story acknowledged, and *is* a very serious matter. Left unaddressed that is exactly the type of thing that could make Jason deciding to cheat on Elsa feel believable, even if we (the audience) still didn't like it. But I believe there are three problems that work against this explanation and wind up leaving a very bad taste in some reader's mouths.

First and most obvious, just because what happened to Jason was given short shrift in EN that doesn't mean the problem was never addressed. In fact, Jason saying how it bothered him is precisely what kicked off the story proper. And we know Elsa understood and accepted his concerns - even seemed to agree with them. The two clearly had begun to address the issue. So... why are we now told this has become a festering wound in their relationship? You can say that just because Jason brought his concerns up once doesn't mean he and Elsa had truly put the entire incident behind them, and that's fair enough, but it raises the question of why they gave up after the first step. I don't think Elsa's absence trying to save Miranda is an adequate explanation because this is the 21st century; even without Elsa's dream powers, it's trivial for the two to keep in touch and still work their way through this. The fact that they apparently have not carries the unfortunate implications that the relationship isn't worth saving; either they're both content to ignore the issue, or one/both are unwilling to devote the necessary time and effort to solving it. That's not necessarily unrealistic, but it's extremely off-putting to anyone who was a fan of the couple. (It also, incidentally, undercuts the notion that 'Raven' is leading Elsa towards greater maturity, but that's a separate issue.)

The second problem has to do with the way Trisha is implied to have used a power on Jason. In theory, that's the trump card that should justify Jason's behavior even if he and Elsa were on the path to mending their relationship. Supernatural powers are a cornerstone of the Elsaverse after all, so Trisha being able inflate an incident out of proportion makes sense... in theory. In practice, I don't think the story did anywhere near enough groundwork to make me buy in. For one thing, there's the problem that seduction alone doesn't explain why Jason would give her the safe combination. Even if Jason had come to flat out hate Elsa over her behavior, he still knows the Morpheus is Bad Fucking News. There's no way he's handing out the safe code just because his new girlfriend asks; if anything, his concerns over Elsa should make him far more reluctant to let anyone else get their hands on that thing. It feels like Trisha has to have two separate powers for the story to work.

Now, we could posit that Trisha's power isn't seduction per se but rather an ability to make people implicitly trust her. That would explain why Jason will give her the code, but now we're left wondering why she needed to seduce him at all. Wouldn't it have been easier for Trisha to become a trusted friend rather than have to overcome Jason's (presumed) reluctance to cheating on Elsa just to become a trusted friend/lover? Likewise you could say Jason needed to be exhausted before he'd give up his deepest secrets (and thus seducing Jason let Trisha kill two birds with one stone), or even that Trisha has a very specific power that only makes her trustworthy to lovers (not just friends), but those feel like a real stretch. And of course none of this is actually brought up in the story itself; this is pure head canon to fill in plot holes in a story I already disliked. Unsurprising it's not very convincing.

[Full disclosure: I'm not a fan of the way the Elsaverse handles powers. IMHO, they tend to be inconsistent and not well thought through. As a simple example: we're told in
Transitions that Charles cannot help but suppress powers in his vicinity, even though it was an explicit plot point that Jess was influencing everyone at the concern around Charles back in Redemption for Jessika. It's possible I'd be more willing to accept Trisha's unusually specific power in this story if I wasn't already tired of the author using powers as a crutch.]

But all of that aside, I think the third and most fundamental problem with making Jason cheat on Elsa in this story is that it's handled far too casually. Whatever the reason for it, Jason cheating on Elsa *should* be a big deal. Not only will it have massive plot ramifications in future Elsaverse tales, it's a direct override of the first (and fourth) game's happy ending. That is not something that should be done lightly, yet it feels very light here. We see Jason's internal monologue explaining why he likes Trisha, but it's a very shallow thought process. with none of the complexities you'd expect him to have in this situation. He never reflects on how his growing attraction to Trisha clashes with his own self image as 'decent guy.' We never see him try to broach his concerns to Elsa, only to be thwarted by happenstance or miscommunication. We never see him discuss the matter with his friends, or try to distance himself from Trisha proactively, or wonder why it seems to be so hard to think about the good times with Elsa when Trisha is around. Hell, we don't even see the point where he acknowledges he wants to cheat on Elsa, he just notes that it must have come when he takes her upstairs.

When you get down to it, Jason isn't really a character in this story. He's a passive observer who's acted on by Trisha. That's not a great way to treat a former player avatar, especially when the matter is summarily dropped the instant his role is done. Any payoff to putting Jason through the wringer is left entirely to future games/stories, but we're stuck paying the toll here and now. And frankly, I don't think it was necessary at all; as I said, it would have been simpler and less galling if Trisha had tricked Jason into giving him the codes simply by befriending him. The only advantage you'd get from making Jason cheat is if it reflected a larger theme in the work, but if anything it's the opposite: most of the other stories were about people finding healthy ways to cope with relationship issues.

So yeah, I don't blame anyone for feeling like Transitions is a slap in the face of Elsa and/or Jason fans, and the fact that the slap was apparently unintended is not encouraging.
I guess I'll see if Chasing Beth does anything to pick up the pieces.
 

moskyx

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Jun 17, 2019
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So I've finally been working my way through the Elsaverse and having reached the end of Transitions I find myself firmly in the "did not like Jason cheating" camp. As much as I respect the argument you make here, and as late to the party as I am, I feel the need to disagree.

You're absolutely right that what happened to Jason in Elsa's Nightmares was far more significant than that story acknowledged, and *is* a very serious matter. Left unaddressed that is exactly the type of thing that could make Jason deciding to cheat on Elsa feel believable, even if we (the audience) still didn't like it. But I believe there are three problems that work against this explanation and wind up leaving a very bad taste in some reader's mouths.

First and most obvious, just because what happened to Jason was given short shrift in EN that doesn't mean the problem was never addressed. In fact, Jason saying how it bothered him is precisely what kicked off the story proper. And we know Elsa understood and accepted his concerns - even seemed to agree with them. The two clearly had begun to address the issue. So... why are we now told this has become a festering wound in their relationship? You can say that just because Jason brought his concerns up once doesn't mean he and Elsa had truly put the entire incident behind them, and that's fair enough, but it raises the question of why they gave up after the first step. I don't think Elsa's absence trying to save Miranda is an adequate explanation because this is the 21st century; even without Elsa's dream powers, it's trivial for the two to keep in touch and still work their way through this. The fact that they apparently have not carries the unfortunate implications that the relationship isn't worth saving; either they're both content to ignore the issue, or one/both are unwilling to devote the necessary time and effort to solving it. That's not necessarily unrealistic, but it's extremely off-putting to anyone who was a fan of the couple. (It also, incidentally, undercuts the notion that 'Raven' is leading Elsa towards greater maturity, but that's a separate issue.)

The second problem has to do with the way Trisha is implied to have used a power on Jason. In theory, that's the trump card that should justify Jason's behavior even if he and Elsa were on the path to mending their relationship. Supernatural powers are a cornerstone of the Elsaverse after all, so Trisha being able inflate an incident out of proportion makes sense... in theory. In practice, I don't think the story did anywhere near enough groundwork to make me buy in. For one thing, there's the problem that seduction alone doesn't explain why Jason would give her the safe combination. Even if Jason had come to flat out hate Elsa over her behavior, he still knows the Morpheus is Bad Fucking News. There's no way he's handing out the safe code just because his new girlfriend asks; if anything, his concerns over Elsa should make him far more reluctant to let anyone else get their hands on that thing. It feels like Trisha has to have two separate powers for the story to work.

Now, we could posit that Trisha's power isn't seduction per se but rather an ability to make people implicitly trust her. That would explain why Jason will give her the code, but now we're left wondering why she needed to seduce him at all. Wouldn't it have been easier for Trisha to become a trusted friend rather than have to overcome Jason's (presumed) reluctance to cheating on Elsa just to become a trusted friend/lover? Likewise you could say Jason needed to be exhausted before he'd give up his deepest secrets (and thus seducing Jason let Trisha kill two birds with one stone), or even that Trisha has a very specific power that only makes her trustworthy to lovers (not just friends), but those feel like a real stretch. And of course none of this is actually brought up in the story itself; this is pure head canon to fill in plot holes in a story I already disliked. Unsurprising it's not very convincing.

[Full disclosure: I'm not a fan of the way the Elsaverse handles powers. IMHO, they tend to be inconsistent and not well thought through. As a simple example: we're told in
Transitions that Charles cannot help but suppress powers in his vicinity, even though it was an explicit plot point that Jess was influencing everyone at the concern around Charles back in Redemption for Jessika. It's possible I'd be more willing to accept Trisha's unusually specific power in this story if I wasn't already tired of the author using powers as a crutch.]

But all of that aside, I think the third and most fundamental problem with making Jason cheat on Elsa in this story is that it's handled far too casually. Whatever the reason for it, Jason cheating on Elsa *should* be a big deal. Not only will it have massive plot ramifications in future Elsaverse tales, it's a direct override of the first (and fourth) game's happy ending. That is not something that should be done lightly, yet it feels very light here. We see Jason's internal monologue explaining why he likes Trisha, but it's a very shallow thought process. with none of the complexities you'd expect him to have in this situation. He never reflects on how his growing attraction to Trisha clashes with his own self image as 'decent guy.' We never see him try to broach his concerns to Elsa, only to be thwarted by happenstance or miscommunication. We never see him discuss the matter with his friends, or try to distance himself from Trisha proactively, or wonder why it seems to be so hard to think about the good times with Elsa when Trisha is around. Hell, we don't even see the point where he acknowledges he wants to cheat on Elsa, he just notes that it must have come when he takes her upstairs.

When you get down to it, Jason isn't really a character in this story. He's a passive observer who's acted on by Trisha. That's not a great way to treat a former player avatar, especially when the matter is summarily dropped the instant his role is done. Any payoff to putting Jason through the wringer is left entirely to future games/stories, but we're stuck paying the toll here and now. And frankly, I don't think it was necessary at all; as I said, it would have been simpler and less galling if Trisha had tricked Jason into giving him the codes simply by befriending him. The only advantage you'd get from making Jason cheat is if it reflected a larger theme in the work, but if anything it's the opposite: most of the other stories were about people finding healthy ways to cope with relationship issues.

So yeah, I don't blame anyone for feeling like Transitions is a slap in the face of Elsa and/or Jason fans, and the fact that the slap was apparently unintended is not encouraging.
I guess I'll see if Chasing Beth does anything to pick up the pieces.
I think most of this argumentation should be discussed with the author herself and I'm sure she'll gladly do so. So I'll just point out a few random thoughts in no particular order.

1.- Glad to see you around these domains.

2.- Raven doesn't seem to be a good old Jiminy Cricket, she is not there to help Elsa mature but just to make her realize her powers are supposed to be used for many other things than sex. She fucking broke Elsa's boyfriend's finger after almost suffocating him, and her ways to make Elsa realize there's something more to herself are, in general, kind of half-assed. So I wouldn't count on her to be the smartest love counselor around - chances are that this inner side of Elsa could've actually been telling her to forget about that guy who is acting like a hindrance to her, preventing her from releasing her full potential.

3.- In Nightmares, despite the initial shock after the finger incident, Jason shows he's willing to understand and support Elsa through her issues. So yeah, I can see why it's shocking that now we are told this is still an issue for Jason. But the way I see it, to him, now the broken finger is not an issue in itself (it's obvious he accepted her explanations and apologies, as they are still together), but more like a first sign of warning: this Elsa is not the same girl anymore. She has started to use her power for bigger things and just grew too much for Jason, whose canon characterization is that of an insecure, simple guy who always believed a stronger woman than the cliched shy librarian from the original title would be out of his league. If you read Multiplicity, he's still that guy and now he doesn't even have Elsa at her place anymore, as she's saving others like Miranda. Of course, Jason wouldn't dare to complain about Elsa helping a friend, but it doesn't change the fact that she's not there for him and he's not her main focus anymore. Before Trisha's arrival, he was probably on the verge of internally accepting (even though he wouldn't ever admit it or voice it up, most likely) he has already lost that girl he knew in DwE and should decide whether to fight back against this (which would imply actually maturing up and growing himself) or just let her go. Then Trisha gets there, makes him verbalize all of this, and with a little power nudge he decides to cheat on Elsa on her own bed. But yeah, this is just my headcanon. CB doesn't even mention Jason and Elsa, so we'll see.

4.- I'm open to admitting that powers have, indeed, a convenient way to work throughout the whole saga, as in there's always a very specific detail that lets you either use it or overcome it, depending on what the story needs at that point. They are always explained in retrospect to make them fit the narrative -and we could argue whether this is a sign of writing excellence, as in 'she's a master who has everything planned in advance', or just a dirty trick, as in 'she never explains powers extensively and in advance so that she always has this ace on her sleeve to close her plot-holes'. Now you mention it, yeah, it seems Trisha shouldn't have needed the sex to get the code -so I guess we'll be getting some proper explanation when Trisha's power is actually revealed, as it has been the case all the time. Charles' power, for instance, is actually consistent despite your doubts because CB's post-credit scene shows it has a very limited range. Enough to make Maria's show go unnoticed that evening, not enough to cancel Jessica's power if he was a dozen of meters away from the stage. He was just immune to her singing, like a whole bunch of other people close to Jess and, eventually, half of Sangrive and even of the world population, if Mayhem are so successful.
 

Tlaero

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
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5,225
So I've finally been working my way through the Elsaverse and having reached the end of Transitions I find myself firmly in the "did not like Jason cheating" camp. As much as I respect the argument you make here, and as late to the party as I am, I feel the need to disagree.
First, thank you for playing so many of my games!

Second, I love these conversations about the characters in the games. Thank you for taking the time to write so much. Your post is well thought out and presented respectfully, and I really appreciate that.

I can't address too much without giving away future stories, so this post may not be very satisfying. I'll go meta level first.

I don't like, "And they lived happily ever after." Life is hard. You have ups and downs, wins and losses. Even powerful people screw up and go through hard times. I wanted that reality in Elsa and Jason's relationship, to make them live through hard times and, hopefully, get stronger as a result of them.

I've been setting up this fall for a while. I'd argue that you see Elsa starting to overshadow Jason in the first short story after DwE (Learning to Fly) and even more in the second one (Dreaming with the Dead). She's been pushing her boundaries with him for a while now and, so far, he appears to be growing slower than she has. The situation that he's in now is definitely a growth opportunity for him.

I promise that I will resolve this situation in a future game.

I wanted to do 3 things with Transitions. Primarily, I wanted to transition the story arc from the original games where Morland was the antagonist to future games where there are other ones. Secondly, I wanted to set up the next two major games, Chasing Beth with the vigilante parts, and the next one (currently called "Dream Corps" in my head) with the Jason parts. Finally, I wanted to show how various characters who hadn't been seen in a while were getting on.

Leaving it on a cliffhanger is a dirty writer's trick, but there's a reason so many of us use it...

As for Charles at the concert, he blocks powers, not the effect of those powers. He would have needed to be close to the stage to block Jess's power. To my knowledge, I've been consistent with my use of powers in the Elsaverse, but enough years have passed through these games that it's entirely possible that I screwed things up. Heck, I got the bookstore's name wrong in the second game and there are clear places where I plagiarized myself and didn't even realize it until years later. I'm unquestionably fallible. :) That said, if there are places where things seem off, I'm happy to discuss them.

Tlaero
 

ename144

Engaged Member
Sep 20, 2018
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2.- Raven doesn't seem to be a good old Jiminy Cricket, she is not there to help Elsa mature but just to make her realize her powers are supposed to be used for many other things than sex. She fucking broke Elsa's boyfriend's finger after almost suffocating him, and her ways to make Elsa realize there's something more to herself are, in general, kind of half-assed. So I wouldn't count on her to be the smartest love counselor around - chances are that this inner side of Elsa could've actually been telling her to forget about that guy who is acting like a hindrance to her, preventing her from releasing her full potential.
We don't see enough of Raven to get a clear picture and Tlaero may have twists instore for us down the line, but I definitely get the impressions she's meant to be somewhat sympathetic. She at least claims to feel bad about hurting Jason, and it's unlikely Jason was ever in actual danger of suffocating (not that that excuses Raven's actions). At any rate, I wasn't trying to imply that Raven was a deliberate self-improvement guru for Elsa, more that she's presented as a sign Elsa wants to move on from the immature use of her powers (as a glorified sex toy) and accept greater responsibility. Having Elsa appear to ignore her relationship issues so she can pursue 'the greater good' muddles that metaphor.

Now it's entirely possible the dissonance is deliberate, or that Elsa is working hard to patch things up with Jason and we simply didn't see it in Transitions. Those are both valid explanations, but I'm always nervous about plot arcs that are entirely reliant on later twists to feel satisfying - especially when the wait can be a long one. IMHO, sometimes it's better to forego a little of the shock from a surprise to keep things from feeling too out of whack during the windup. A feint that fools the audience completely is, in my experience, self-defeating.

3.- In Nightmares, despite the initial shock after the finger incident, Jason shows he's willing to understand and support Elsa through her issues. So yeah, I can see why it's shocking that now we are told this is still an issue for Jason. But the way I see it, to him, now the broken finger is not an issue in itself (it's obvious he accepted her explanations and apologies, as they are still together), but more like a first sign of warning: this Elsa is not the same girl anymore. She has started to use her power for bigger things and just grew too much for Jason, whose canon characterization is that of an insecure, simple guy who always believed a stronger woman than the cliched shy librarian from the original title would be out of his league. If you read Multiplicity, he's still that guy and now he doesn't even have Elsa at her place anymore, as she's saving others like Miranda. Of course, Jason wouldn't dare to complain about Elsa helping a friend, but it doesn't change the fact that she's not there for him and he's not her main focus anymore. Before Trisha's arrival, he was probably on the verge of internally accepting (even though he wouldn't ever admit it or voice it up, most likely) he has already lost that girl he knew in DwE and should decide whether to fight back against this (which would imply actually maturing up and growing himself) or just let her go. Then Trisha gets there, makes him verbalize all of this, and with a little power nudge he decides to cheat on Elsa on her own bed. But yeah, this is just my headcanon. CB doesn't even mention Jason and Elsa, so we'll see.
I'm willing to believe Jason has lingering resentments (or fears) he was unwilling to articulate to Elsa (or his other friends), and that Trisha could exploit those feelings in some way. But that's the *start* of a character arc, not the whole thing. I can't go straight from "exploitable vulnerabilities" to "Jason betraying Elsa's trust in the most fundamental ways possible" without some level of introspection/angst/cries for help from Jason. Not unless Trisha's power is flat-out mind control, but that's definitely not what's implied (and would be a nuclear-powered can of worms in its own right).

4.- I'm open to admitting that powers have, indeed, a convenient way to work throughout the whole saga, as in there's always a very specific detail that lets you either use it or overcome it, depending on what the story needs at that point. They are always explained in retrospect to make them fit the narrative -and we could argue whether this is a sign of writing excellence, as in 'she's a master who has everything planned in advance', or just a dirty trick, as in 'she never explains powers extensively and in advance so that she always has this ace on her sleeve to close her plot-holes'. Now you mention it, yeah, it seems Trisha shouldn't have needed the sex to get the code -so I guess we'll be getting some proper explanation when Trisha's power is actually revealed, as it has been the case all the time. Charles' power, for instance, is actually consistent despite your doubts because CB's post-credit scene shows it has a very limited range. Enough to make Maria's show go unnoticed that evening, not enough to cancel Jessica's power if he was a dozen of meters away from the stage. He was just immune to her singing, like a whole bunch of other people close to Jess and, eventually, half of Sangrive and even of the world population, if Mayhem are so successful.
Let's cover this below.


First, thank you for playing so many of my games!

Second, I love these conversations about the characters in the games. Thank you for taking the time to write so much. Your post is well thought out and presented respectfully, and I really appreciate that.
My pleasure. I have my quibbles with the various games, but I'm glad I played them. Honestly, Sylvia and Sarah alone were worth the price of admission. :D

I can't address too much without giving away future stories, so this post may not be very satisfying. I'll go meta level first.

I don't like, "And they lived happily ever after." Life is hard. You have ups and downs, wins and losses. Even powerful people screw up and go through hard times. I wanted that reality in Elsa and Jason's relationship, to make them live through hard times and, hopefully, get stronger as a result of them.
I've no objection to seeing Elsa and Jason go through the crucible. As a hopeless romantic I'd obviously prefer to see them emerge the stronger for it, but even seeing people break during their test can be satisfying in its own way - if it's handled well and especially if it leads into other stories. But as I said, I don't think it's something that should be done lightly, and IMHO Transitions just didn't give the Elsa/Jason relationship the focus or detail it needed.

As for living happily ever after, I certainly respect your view. Sometimes we do need to rein in the sunshine and rainbows with a cold splash of reality, and there's unquestionably a lot of mileage to be gained by asking what happens after the story ends. But then again, sometimes you need to buck cynicism and go for broke; we all need a happy fantasy once in a while. Being a man of simple tastes, I tend to prefer the fairy tale (and it seems to be in something of a downswing at the moment), but there's plenty of room for both approaches.

That said, IMHO converting an existing 'happily ever after' into a 'reality ensued' is a perilous endeavor. Once you let the genie out of the bottle, it's a real bitch to get it back in there. If the sequel isn't as satisfying as the original ending, there's no going back (*still* looking at you, Madoka Magica!! :mad:).

Now ultimately this is your story and I wasn't particularly invested in the happy ending, so I'm content to roll with it. But I get why people who were more invested would react so viscerally. It's all the more reason to tread carefully when blazing the path away from the first story to next.

I've been setting up this fall for a while. I'd argue that you see Elsa starting to overshadow Jason in the first short story after DwE (Learning to Fly) and even more in the second one (Dreaming with the Dead). She's been pushing her boundaries with him for a while now and, so far, he appears to be growing slower than she has. The situation that he's in now is definitely a growth opportunity for him.
I don't know if overshadowed is quite the right word here; Elsa outclassed him the instant she read Morpheus. But I think I understand what you're saying. Elsa's treatment of Jason does take on a a more patronizing tone starting in the short stories, as though he's a stubborn child who needs to be tutored rather than a peer that may have his own tastes and priorities. Perhaps 'outgrow' would be a better term? (At least from Elsa's POV, I don't think she's objectively more mature.)

At any rate, I actually agree Elsa's behavior in the short stories is problematic. (Personally, I though Learning to Fly was the worse of the two; threatening to withhold sex for a month if Jason didn't throw himself off a (dream) building is comparatively trivial (and probably meant to be taken in a lighthearted manner), but it just seemed so unnecessarily adversarial.) But that's part of why I was surprised the issue hadn't been sorted out after Elsa's Nightmares. Jason finally voiced a complaint to Elsa, and she took it very seriously. It seemed like that would naturally lead to the two discussing the topic at greater length once Elsa finally figured out what was going on with Raven.

Now I can believe that Elsa would throw herself into her new project and lose sight of this issue when they no longer spend anywhere near as much time together. That would certainly put a strain on the relationship. I can even believe Jason would feel it incumbent on him as a "supportive boyfriend" to bury his concerns and accept Elsa's new attitude, thus allowing resentment to build subtly until Trisha's appearance forced him to recognize how unhappy he'd become. I just can't accept that happening "offscreen," as it were.

There's a reason tragedies play up the hero's flaws before the fall, not after. If Jason is going to fall, *we* need to see the disaster coming even if the character is caught flatfooted.

I promise that I will resolve this situation in a future game.

I wanted to do 3 things with Transitions. Primarily, I wanted to transition the story arc from the original games where Morland was the antagonist to future games where there are other ones. Secondly, I wanted to set up the next two major games, Chasing Beth with the vigilante parts, and the next one (currently called "Dream Corps" in my head) with the Jason parts. Finally, I wanted to show how various characters who hadn't been seen in a while were getting on.
Fair enough. As I said, I'm willing to see where this goes.

Leaving it on a cliffhanger is a dirty writer's trick, but there's a reason so many of us use it...
Cliffhangers up the stakes, but that's not always a good thing. If the audience trusts you to make good on the promise inherent in the dramatic setup, the wait builds anticipation without raising expectations to unmanageable levels; you still need to stick the landing, but they won't hold a stumble or two against you. But if you lose the audience's trust, the wait gives them time to pull the premise apart and go over it with a fine-tooth comb; now they really will expect perfection because you not only need to resolve the situation, you need to justify all the things they didn't like in the setup.

Still, no guts no glory. You can't please everyone and it's a mistake to try. I do think you could have benefitted from a little more groundwork before dangling off this particular cliff, but if it's the one you have your heart set on so be it.

As for Charles at the concert, he blocks powers, not the effect of those powers. He would have needed to be close to the stage to block Jess's power. To my knowledge, I've been consistent with my use of powers in the Elsaverse, but enough years have passed through these games that it's entirely possible that I screwed things up. Heck, I got the bookstore's name wrong in the second game and there are clear places where I plagiarized myself and didn't even realize it until years later. I'm unquestionably fallible. :) That said, if there are places where things seem off, I'm happy to discuss them.
If Charles only blocks powers at the source, that would imply he himself should be affected whenever the source power outranges him, which we know can't be the case (Jessika's song can clearly affect the entire arena). To me, this explanation means that Charles actually has two separate (though thematically related) powers: he suppresses powers within a certain radius, and he himself is unaffected by powers regardless of range.

I don't think that would contradict anything we've seen on screen (Charles doesn't appear much). The added complexity of two rules does make it feel less 'natural' than I'd like, but I guess I can live with it. It does make me wonder if Morland's already nebulous precognitive ability should have worked on Chloe whenever Charles stood next to her, but that's the sort of question . Better not to dwell on it.
 
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Tlaero

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Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
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I'm enjoying the view into the reader's side of things that you're providing in your posts.

Two quick things before I rush off to an appointment:

Cliffhangers up the stakes, but that's not always a good thing.

It does make me wonder if Morland's already nebulous precognitive ability should have worked on Chloe whenever Charles stood next to her,
It's definitely questionable to go this long without a resolution to the cliffhanger. I've complained in the past about other people doing this to me. (A certain game from Valve springs to mind.)

As for the power interaction between Chloe, Charles, and Morland, we're definitely going to get into that in the future.

Tlaero
 

Avaron1974

Resident Lesbian
Aug 22, 2018
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I'm a huge soppy romantic but I will admit I never expected Elsa and Jason to last as a couple.

Unlike all the other couples in the Chloe arc, Elsa was a sheletered, shy woman who hadn't yet grown into herself and was pretty naive to the whole relationship thing. Add on to that Jason was an introvert who hadn't experienced much.

On paper all 4 couples are pretty much made for each other however Elsa and Jason were both in a weird position. Elsa is powerful and was using that power as a sex aid which was one of Ravens biggest issues. As Elsa grew both as a person and her power she started leaving Jason behind who just wasn't keeping up. Elsa was blossoming into herself and Jason was a fixed point.

Like all couple, if you don't grow together then eventually you are going to grow apart and while they may ultimately work out, Elsa has outgrown Jason. Jason never did catch up. If anything he's still the same and wondering where the Elsa he met has gone.

The one and only issue I have with a redemption arc now is I see things from the womans point of view and to me cheating is the big relationship ender. It's one thing I can't forgive. Relationships need trust to work and cheating breaks that, once that trust is gone it's next to impossible to bring it back. Sure some couples do it but how many have turned into jealous, paranoid loons afterwards. Wanting to know where they are and who they are with. Imagine a jealous, paranoid, superpowered loon that could quite literally kill you in your sleep.

Whether they ultimately work out is in the hands of a far better writer than I am so we'll see. Eithe way it's more Elsaverse and i'm here for that.
 

Tlaero

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Nov 24, 2018
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4.- I'm open to admitting that powers have, indeed, a convenient way to work throughout the whole saga, as in there's always a very specific detail that lets you either use it or overcome it, depending on what the story needs at that point. They are always explained in retrospect to make them fit the narrative -and we could argue whether this is a sign of writing excellence, as in 'she's a master who has everything planned in advance', or just a dirty trick, as in 'she never explains powers extensively and in advance so that she always has this ace on her sleeve to close her plot-holes'.
If I were writing a story about powers, I'd give all the formulas for their range and explain precisely why some people get them and others don't. But I'm not writing a story about powers. I'm writing a story about people. Yes, they're people who have powers, but they're people first. There are mainstream examples where going into too much detail weakens the story--from midichlorians in Star Wars to incorrect calculations in Armageddon. Both of those stories would be better off if those details were omitted.

That said, I'm somewhere between the two options you offered. I tend to plan out much more than I explain, but I also intentionally give the least information necessary for the story to work, thus giving me room to expand things in future unplanned stories. Case in point, I had no concept whatsoever of Chasing Beth when I wrote Saving Chloe. Chasing Beth happened because I didn't like where I left Serena in Saving Chloe, and I sat down to write a story that put her in a good place.

Tlaero
 

Shelscott50

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Sep 6, 2019
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I am curious about the Chronological timeline of these games.
(please forgive & correct me If I have any 'Out of Order' as I am going by the List)

1. Dreaming with Elsa
2. Redemption for Jessika
3. Finding Miranda
4. Saving Chloe
5. Darkness Falls
6. Chasing Beth
7. Elsaverse: Past, Present & Future
8. Gemini

So, where does "Elsa's Nightmare" & "Elsaverse: Transitions" play into this, or do they?
- also looking at the 'Omnibus', any other short stories I Need to read?

I also understand that the stories/games, are in No way connected with the Elsa-verse timeline.
1a. Pandora
2a. Christine 1 & 2

3a. L.C. for Keeley
4a. Toro 7
 

moskyx

Forum Fanatic
Jun 17, 2019
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I am curious about the Chronological timeline of these games.
(please forgive & correct me If I have any 'Out of Order' as I am going by the List)

1. Dreaming with Elsa
2. Redemption for Jessika
3. Finding Miranda
4. Saving Chloe
5. Darkness Falls
6. Chasing Beth
7. Elsaverse: Past, Present & Future
8. Gemini

So, where does "Elsa's Nightmare" & "Elsaverse: Transitions" play into this, or do they?
- also looking at the 'Omnibus', any other short stories I Need to read?

I also understand that the stories/games, are in No way connected with the Elsa-verse timeline.
1a. Pandora
2a. Christine 1 & 2

3a. L.C. for Keeley
4a. Toro 7
You got it basically right. The Omnibus is just a collection of the 5 first games on your list, plus other side stories. Then, "Elsa's Nightmares" and "EV: Transitions" should be placed somewhere between "Darkness Falls" and "Chasing Beth". For more details on where other stories stand, you can check the
 
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Tlaero

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Nov 24, 2018
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Elsa's Nightmares and Elsaverse: Transitions take place (in that order) between Darkness Falls and Chasing Beth. You're correct about the rest of the order. You don't need to read the extra short stories, etc, in the Omnibus. They add to the overall narrative, but aren't required to understand anything.

You're also correct that Pandora, Christine, the Keeley games, and Toro 7 aren't connected to the Elsaverse.

Tlaero
 
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Shelscott50

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2019
1,447
938
Elsa's Nightmares and Elsaverse: Transitions take place (in that order) between Darkness Falls and Chasing Beth. You're correct about the rest of the order. You don't need to read the extra short stories, etc, in the Omnibus. They add to the overall narrative, but aren't required to understand anything.

You're also correct that Pandora, Christine, the Keeley games, and Toro 7 aren't connected to the Elsaverse.

Tlaero
Thank you.
 

Shelscott50

Well-Known Member
Sep 6, 2019
1,447
938
You got it basically right. The Omnibus is just a collection of the 5 first games on your list, plus other side stories. Then, "Elsa's Nightmares" and "EV: Transitions" should be placed somewhere between "Darkness Falls" and "Chasing Beth". For more details on where other stories stand, you can check the
Thank you.
 
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