graflex12

Newbie
Jul 13, 2023
25
68
Nah, you are wrong here. Blackmail isn't really coercion, especially when it comes to reputational blackmail.

If blackmailer doesn't act like terrorist (ie. threatens your life or life of members of your family in order to push you into becoming his tool of destruction or demanding evil doing from you) and whole blackmail is based just on knowledge of true information you would prefer to stay private, it isn't really coercive. Because unlike your life or health you don't own exclusive rights on what other people should know or not know about you. You can stop people telling lies about you, which damage your reputation, but not the truth.

Truth-based kind of reputational blackmail isn't really coercive and is based on your choice. If blackmailer knows the truth, he or she can go public with it anyway, and if you agree to pay for silence, you're just paying for prefered postponement of getting it leaked. So, you can pay to buy some time and prepare your damage control, you wouldn't have chance to set up, if not that warning. If blackmailing person wouldn't be greedy and go public for free straight on, you couldn't control even that time shit hits the fan.
This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever read, holy christ.

According to Merriam-Webster:

blackmail
noun
black·mail ˈblak-ˌmāl
Synonyms of blackmail
1: a tribute anciently exacted on the Scottish border by plundering chiefs in exchange for immunity from pillage
2
a: extortion or coercion by threats especially of public exposure or criminal prosecution
b: the payment that is extorted

Blackmail IS coercion, regardless of the circumstance. There is no distinction for "truth-based blackmail" or whatever the fuck you're on about.

Nobody is obliged to help you keeping up your appearances. And it's your problem, if you're not open about yourself and need to mask up in order to function in society. When you aren't, your potentially giving much power over yourself to other people, which is dumb thing to do.

Duplos should get out of the closet! :D
People have a myriad reasons for wanting privacy. Wanting to hide aspects of a person's life is their right, and it's definitely not "giving power over them" to some random shithead who breached their privacy.
 
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PhineasFlynn

Forum Fanatic
Feb 1, 2020
4,149
4,122
This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever read, holy christ.

According to Merriam-Webster:

blackmail
noun
black·mail ˈblak-ˌmāl
Synonyms of blackmail
1: a tribute anciently exacted on the Scottish border by plundering chiefs in exchange for immunity from pillage
2
a: extortion or coercion by threats especially of public exposure or criminal prosecution
b: the payment that is extorted

Blackmail IS coercion, regardless of the circumstance. There is no distinction for "truth-based blackmail" or whatever the fuck you're on about.



People have a myriad reasons for wanting privacy. Wanting to hide aspects of a person's life is their right, and it's definitely not "giving power over them" to some random shithead who breached their privacy.
Yeah, privacy...
How much of your friends, family members, our wife or mom, etc... know about your membership on this site or even of interest of this kind of games.
Privacy is one of most important things in live...
 
Sep 25, 2020
137
315
This is some of the dumbest shit I've ever read, holy christ.

According to Merriam-Webster:

blackmail
noun
black·mail ˈblak-ˌmāl
Synonyms of blackmail
1: a tribute anciently exacted on the Scottish border by plundering chiefs in exchange for immunity from pillage
2
a: extortion or coercion by threats especially of public exposure or criminal prosecution
b: the payment that is extorted

Blackmail IS coercion, regardless of the circumstance. There is no distinction for "truth-based blackmail" or whatever the fuck you're on about.



People have a myriad reasons for wanting privacy. Wanting to hide aspects of a person's life is their right, and it's definitely not "giving power over them" to some random shithead who breached their privacy.
Yeah, the dictionary is blind to intricacies of moral theory and usually is reflection of dumbed-down lowest denominator mainstream outlook, so I wouldn't treat its definitions as ultimate truth. Not all threats have coercive qualities and not all coercion is unlawful. Check it out:

At first glance it is not hard to answer the question, “Is blackmail really illegitimate?” The only problem it​
would seem to pose is, “Why is it being asked at all?” Do not blackmailers, well . . . blackmail people? And what could be worse? Blackmailers prey on people’s dark hidden secrets. They threaten to expose and publicize them. They bleed their victims, and often drive them to suicide.​
We will find, however, that the case against the blackmailer cannot stand serious analysis; that it is based upon a tissue of unexamined shibboleths and deep philosophical misunderstandings.​
What, exactly, is blackmail? Blackmail is the offer of trade. It is the offer to trade something, usually silence, for some other good, usually money. If the offer of the trade is accepted, the blackmailer then maintains his silence and the blackmailee pays the agreed-upon price. If the blackmail offer is rejected, the blackmailer may exercise his rights of free speech and publicize the secret. There is nothing amiss here. All that is happening is that an offer to maintain silence is being made. If the offer is rejected, the blackmailer does no more than exercise his right of free speech.​
The sole difference between a gossip and a blackmailer is that the blackmailer will refrain from speaking—for a price. In a sense, the gossip is much worse than the blackmailer, for the blackmailer has given the blackmailee a chance to silence him. The gossip exposes the secret without warning. Is not the person with a secret better off at the hands of a blackmailer than a gossip? With the gossip, all is lost; with the blackmailer, one can only gain, or at least be no worse off. If the price requested by the blackmailer is lower than the secret is worth, the secretholder will pay the blackmailer—this being the lesser of the two evils.​
He thus gains the difference to him between the value of the secret and the price of the blackmail. When the blackmailer demands more than the secret is worth, his demand will not be met and the information will become public. However, in this case the person is no worse off with the blackmailer than he would have been with the inveterate gossip. It is indeed difficult, then, to account for the vilification suffered by the blackmailer, at least compared to the gossip, who is usually dismissed with slight contempt and smugness.​
Blackmail need not entail the offer of silence in return for money. This is only the best known form. But blackmail may be defined without reference to either. Defined in general terms, blackmail is the threat to do something—anything which is not in itself illegal—unless certain demands are met.​
Many actions in the public arena qualify as acts of blackmail, but, instead of being vilified, they have often attained a status of respectability! For example, the recent lettuce boycott is a form of blackmail. Through the lettuce boycott (or any boycott) threats are made to retailers and wholesalers of fruits and vegetables. If they handle nonunion lettuce, the boycotters assert, people will be asked not to patronize their establishments. This conforms perfectly to the definition: a threat that something, not in itself illegal, will take place unless certain demands are met.​
But what about the threats involved in blackmail? This perhaps more than anything else, is the aspect of blackmail that is most misunderstood and feared. At first glance, one is inclined to agree that threats are immoral. The usual dictum against aggression, for example, warns not only against aggression per se but also against the threat of aggression. If a highwayman accosts a traveler, it is usually the threat of aggression alone that will compel obedience.​
Consider the nature of threats. When what is threatened is aggressive violence, the threat is condemnable. No individual has the right to initiate aggressive violence against another. In blackmail, however, what is being “threatened” is something that the blackmailer does have a right to do!—whether it be exercising the right of free speech, or refusing to patronize certain stores, or persuading others to do likewise. What is being threatened is not in itself illegitimate; it is, therefore, not possible to call the “threat” an illegitimate threat.​
Blackmail can only be illegitimate when there is a special foresworn relationship between the blackmailer and the blackmailee. A secret-keeper may take a lawyer or a private investigator into his confidence on the condition that the confidence be maintained in secrecy. If the lawyer or private investigator attempts to blackmail the secret-keeper, that would be in violation of the contract and, therefore, illegitimate. However, if a stranger holds the secret without contractual obligations, then it is legitimate to offer to “sell” his silence.​
In addition to being a legitimate activity, blackmail has some good effects, litanies to the contrary notwithstanding. Apart from some innocent victims who are caught in the net, whom does the blackmailer usually prey upon? In the main, there are two groups. One group is composed of criminals: murderers, thieves, swindlers, embezzlers, cheaters, rapists, etc. The other group consists of people who engage in activities, not illegitimate in themselves, but which are contrary to the mores and habits of the majority: homosexuals, sado-masochists, sexual perverts, communists, adulterers, etc. The institution of blackmail has beneficial, but different, effects upon each of these groups.​
In the case of criminals, blackmail and the threat of blackmail serves as a deterrent. They add to the risks involved in criminal activity. How many of the anonymous “tips” received by the police—the value of which cannot be overestimated— can be traced, directly or indirectly, to blackmail? How many criminals are led to pursue crime on their own, eschewing the aid of fellow criminals in “jobs” that call for cooperation, out of the fear of possible blackmail? Finally, there are those individuals who are on the verge of committing crimes, or at the “margin of criminality” (as the economist would say), where the least factor will propel them one way or another. The additional fear of blackmail may be enough, in some cases, to dissuade them from crime.​
If blackmail itself were legalized, it would undoubtedly be an even more effective deterrent. Legalization would undoubtedly result in an increase in blackmail, with attendant depredations upon the criminal class.​
It is sometimes said that what diminishes crime is not the penalty attached to the crime but the certainty of being caught. Although this controversy rages with great relevance in current debates on capital punishment, it will suffice to point out that the institution of blackmail does both. It increases the penalty associated with crime, as it forces criminals to share part of their loot with the blackmailer. It also raises the probability of being apprehended, as blackmailers are added to police forces, private citizen and vigilante groups, and other anticrime units. Blackmailers, who are often members in good standing in the criminal world, are in an advantageous position to foil crimes. Their “inside” status surpasses even that of the spy or infiltrator, who is forced to play a role. Legalizing blackmail would thus allow anticrime units to take advantage of two basic crime fighting adages at the same time: “divide and conquer,” and “lack of honor among thieves.” It is quite clear that one important effect of legalizing blackmail would be to diminish crime, real crime, that is.​
The legalization of blackmail would also have a beneficial effect upon actions which do not involve aggression, but are at variance with the mores of society as a whole. On these actions, the legalization of blackmail would have a liberating effect.​
Even with blackmail still illegal, we are witnessing some of its beneficial effects. Homosexuality, for instance, is technically illegal in some instances, but not really criminal, since it involves no aggression. For individual homosexuals, blackmail very often causes considerable harm and can hardly be considered beneficial. But for the group as a whole, that is, for each individual as a member of the group, blackmail has helped by making the public more aware and accustomed to homosexuality. Forcing individual members of a socially oppressed group into the open, or “out of the closet,” cannot, of course, be considered a service. The use of force is a violation of an individual’s rights. But still, it does engender an awareness on the part of members of a group of one another’s existence. In forcing this perception, blackmail can legitimately take some small share of the credit in liberating people whose only crime is a deviation from the norm in a noncriminal way.​
In reflecting on the old aphorism, “the truth shall make you free,” the only “weapon” at the disposal of the blackmailer is the truth. In using the truth to back up his threats (as on occasion he must), he sets the truth free, very often without intent, to do whatever good or bad it is capable of doing.​
from Block's "Defending the Undefendable"
Duplos fit in with paragraph on closet homosexuality quite nicely, I think.

When it comes to me, I agree with that viewpoint with one exception. Truth-based blackmail stops being passable in one condition. When society is going into ethnic cleansing/extermination mode, when state creates laws that allow to lawfully kill whole groups or demographics.

But since I don't see foreboding duplo-Holocaust in futa-world presented by the game on the horizon and Ashe is threatened only by loss of position on marital market and risk of deemed unworthy of serious relationship by bigoted, I'm ok with that.
 

graflex12

Newbie
Jul 13, 2023
25
68
Ah yes, Walter Block, the enlightened centrist who literally wrote "Moreover, the institution of child labor is an honorable one, with a long and glorious history of good works." I don't give a fuck about his opinions on these matters because his arguments disregard the human element.

Blackmail is coercion. Full stop. A person will set boundaries around themselves, which include personal information. It is your moral imperative to respect those boundaries. If you know that there are pieces of information they do not want made public, you respect their wishes. It's not your call to make to "set them free by telling the truth". Even in your closing statement you're doing what Block is: disregarding the human.

But since I don't see foreboding duplo-Holocaust in futa-world presented by the game on the horizon and Ashe is threatened only by loss of position on marital market and risk of deemed unworthy of serious relationship by bigoted, I'm ok with that.
YOU don't think the potential trauma Ashe would have to deal with is a big deal. We've seen enough instances of her on the verge of a mental breakdown about her secret coming out to know that it's a massive deal for HER. You respect the human, not the "truth".
 
Last edited:
Sep 25, 2020
137
315
Blackmail is coercion. Full stop. A person will set boundaries around themselves, which include personal information. It is your moral imperative to respect those boundaries. If you know that there are pieces of information they do not want made public, you respect their wishes.
Nah. I don't think that's my moral imperative and I don't consider people are able to make such demands. You can respect their made-up boundaries, if you want to be extra-nice for them and you usually do it, if you want to stay welcome in their social circle, but it's not imperative. Far from it.

It's not your call to make to "set them free by telling the truth". Even in your closing statement you're doing what Block is: disregarding the human.
Yeah. Because people have tendency to drill far fetched demands into others. And when they do that or are trying, it's better to disregard them to keep your own autonomy.

YOU don't think it's a big deal because YOU think the potential trauma Ashe would have to deal with is not a big deal. We've seen enough instances of her on the verge of a mental breakdown about her secret coming out to know that it's a massive deal for HER. You respect the human, not the "truth".
I don't consider value of potential trauma Ashe would have, because her closet keeping strategy is untenable anyway. If she wants to date someone, she would eventually need to tell the truth. It's by not doing it, she creates trauma potential for herself.

For now, it seems that on certain routes, she prefers putting plug in her ass as told by stranger on the phone, than letting him gossip.
 

graflex12

Newbie
Jul 13, 2023
25
68
Nah. I don't think that's my moral imperative and I don't consider people are able to make such demands. You can respect their made-up boundaries, if you want to be extra-nice for them and you usually do it, if you want to stay welcome in their social circle, but it's not imperative. Far from it.
Right, you have no regard for others and see them as a means to an end. Which flies in the face of Kant's assertion that people are to be seen as the end itself, meaning you respect others for it's own sake instead of seeing them as utilities to benefit from. I'd rather take a respected ethical philosopher's perspective over this goober.

Yeah. Because people have tendency to drill far fetched demands into others. And when they do that or are trying, it's better to disregard them to keep your own autonomy.
A person asking you not to reveal information about them is not a far-fetched demand. You can fulfill that request by simply doing nothing. I'm not saying always acquiesce to other people, I'm saying decisions need to be made with morality in mind, and morality is a uniquely human concept.

I don't consider value of potential trauma Ashe would have, because her closet keeping strategy is untenable anyway. If she wants to date someone, she would eventually need to tell the truth. It's by not doing it, she creates trauma potential for herself.

For now, it seems that on certain routes, she prefers putting plug in her ass as told by stranger on the phone, than letting him gossip.
Once again, her closet keeping strategy is her business. If she wants to date someone, she'll evaluate their trustworthiness (like she did with Fiona) and reveal that information on her terms.

Your own hero Block says "Forcing individual members of a socially oppressed group into the open, or “out of the closet,” cannot, of course, be considered a service. The use of force is a violation of an individual’s rights."

Use of force = coercion.

Anyway, I'm not spending more time arguing morality on a fucking porn board. I pity the people who have to deal with your libertarian bullshit in real life.
 

Dessolos

Devoted Member
Jul 25, 2017
10,547
13,524
Come on Mate, Delilah is also pretty hot :D

The outfit she is wearing for the big party looks pretty sexy and her business Dress suits her also very well. I was just as surprised as Ashe how good she looks in it.
eh looks only matter at the start till I get to know the character for me. But yeah Lookwise Delilah probably my favorite after Vanessa. But honestly more surprised how Fiona looks dressed up for the party. Usually not into Fiona's looks but she looks damn good dressed up.
 
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Sep 25, 2020
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Right, you have no regard for others and see them as a means to an end. Which flies in the face of Kant's assertion that people are to be seen as the end itself, meaning you respect others for it's own sake instead of seeing them as utilities to benefit from. I'd rather take a respected ethical philosopher's perspective over this goober.
In this case it's beneficial to other people that want or don't want to date duplo, if they know who the duplo is. Potential denunciation cuts dating costs and saves time for everyone. And when there is conflict of interest, who you should regard specifically?

A person asking you not to reveal information about them is not a far-fetched demand. You can fulfill that request by simply doing nothing. I'm not saying always acquiesce to other people, I'm saying decisions need to be made with morality in mind, and morality is a uniquely human concept.
Or you decide not fulfill it, if you think this is pointless or harmful to interest of others. It's up to you.

Once again, her closet keeping strategy is her business. If she wants to date someone, she'll evaluate their trustworthiness (like she did with Fiona) and reveal that information on her terms.

Your own hero Block says "Forcing individual members of a socially oppressed group into the open, or “out of the closet,” cannot, of course, be considered a service. The use of force is a violation of an individual’s rights."
Yeah, but he still thinks society as whole benefits from this. So let's Ashe become a martyr for duplo minority to get normalized anyway.

Anyway, I'm not spending more time arguing morality on a fucking porn board.
Haha, that's the most popular of all questionable things people are doing here. :D
 

Ciaran8023

Member
Jun 4, 2018
388
817
I think certain individuals seem to entirely forget the age old adage 'your rights end when the rights of others begin'. Everyone has a right to protect personal information about themselves, and no one has any right to deal with that information even if you happen to know about it.

Moreover, while we don't know the full extent of how vulnerable duplos are in society, the fact that we do have an example of someone getting bullied into suicide should be more than enough explanation to where dealing with Ashe's secret is a threat to her personal safety and the safety of the people around her.

Yeah, but he still thinks society as whole benefits from this. So let's Ashe become a martyr for duplo minority to get normalized anyway.
Well, as I just pointed out, the last duplo that got "outed" ended up getting bullied and antagonized to suicide so there's not much to say about any 'normalization' and instead it would just create victims.
 

Buletti

Active Member
Nov 7, 2023
641
535
eh looks only matter at the start till I get to know the character for me. But yeah Lookwise Delilah probably my favorite after Vanessa. But honestly more surprised how Fiona looks dressed up for the party. Usually not into Fiona's looks but she looks damn good dressed up.
I totally agree on Fiona. As Ashe said she was hardly recogniseable.

This party is really going to be awesome. Especially when everyone will get pumped with the sex drug.

I already cannot wait for the next update!
 
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doovel

Member
Nov 13, 2023
422
645
eh looks only matter at the start till I get to know the character for me. But yeah Lookwise Delilah probably my favorite after Vanessa. But honestly more surprised how Fiona looks dressed up for the party. Usually not into Fiona's looks but she looks damn good dressed up.
For some reason Vanessa has that Botox face (same with Natasha tbf), which is a complete turn off for me. And a little weird considering her mother doesn't have that at all. (And Vanessa is supposed to be young).

Delilah looks like a sweet girl, to be fair so does Rachel. We'll have to wait and see if they turn out to be blackmailers or just accessories though.
 

Birdnman993

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2021
1,097
1,560
I totally agree on Fiona. As Ashe said she was hardly recogniseable.

This party is really going to be awesome. Especially when everyone will get pumped with the sex drug.

I already cannot wait for the next update!
Totally, following that line of thought, the typical visit to the spa with sexual results is necessary, or maybe going to a terminal bath house, I would like Ashe and her LIs to go to karaoke, I think that would help her gain confidence and have fun at the same time.

Hopefully we'll see a porn star at the party too or a camgirl like Ashe watches.
 
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Dessolos

Devoted Member
Jul 25, 2017
10,547
13,524
For some reason Vanessa has that Botox face (same with Natasha tbf), which is a complete turn off for me. And a little weird considering her mother doesn't have that at all. (And Vanessa is supposed to be young).

Delilah looks like a sweet girl, to be fair so does Rachel. We'll have to wait and see if they turn out to be blackmailers or just accessories though.
Yeah I kind of don't like that botox look either but for me it seems really mild or barley even there for Vanessa like I don't notice it most of the time. But it could also be cause I really like her. There is a LI in another game that has that botox look in her lips way worse. I didn't like it at first or at all but she became one of my favorite LI across all AVN's and now I don't even notice it at all. Not sure if it's a case I just got used to it or more a case of once I start to really like a character small things I dislike in their appearance aren't really that noticeable to me as im never thinking about it anymore.

I totally agree on Fiona. As Ashe said she was hardly recogniseable.

This party is really going to be awesome. Especially when everyone will get pumped with the sex drug.

I already cannot wait for the next update!
I just hope the entire update isn't the party if im being honest that is my only concern but yeah I can't wait for it. I actually hated where the update ended I thought we were gonna get to see the party first.
 
Sep 25, 2020
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315
I think certain individuals seem to entirely forget the age old adage 'your rights end when the rights of others begin'. Everyone has a right to protect personal information about themselves, and no one has any right to deal with that information even if you happen to know about it.
My favourite Sherlock Holmes story of them all was always . And do you know why?

Well, mostly because it gives you "Are we the baddies?" vibe, as Sherlock can't legally do much about that case and decides to become burglar himself and allows some revenge based extrajudicial killing by one of blackmailee who didn't take well that Milverton told what he knew, after he wasn't paid.

In fact, Sherlock in this story becomes someone who absolves Victorian elites from withstanding social criticism for breaking social constrictions they established for everybody else or paying Milverton their broken reputation fee. Instead he destroys evidence of their wrongdoing and lets them to slip out of their woes with unjustified clean slate.

That one short story always made me think, in this case justice didn't triumph. Quite opposite. Despite being portrayed as despicable, Milverton played a role of social custom caretaker. He created his own unofficial sanction system for depravity based on social ostracism and made hipocrites pay for something they officially condemned, but practiced behind closed door anyway with impunity. Milverton nailed them and thanks to him overclass was pushed into conforming to the norms preached.

So this story ending wasn't satysfying at all, but more bitter, as Milverton was useful for social norms hygiene and Holmes couldn't deal with him in bounds of law. Here the criminal was agent of truth and heroes were trying to hide it, helping avoiding scandals which should blow out.

We don't know what intentions are behind the blackmailer of "Eruption Imminnent", but it may be something more sympathethic than we think. Is she acting out of spite for her previous duplo love disappointment? Is that fallout of family feud? Is that really Deli, who can't get attention she needs? I don't know. But reputational blackmailers rarely are true evil, they mostly perform important role of human soul mirrors and they show you something that you want to hide.

That's going to be fast track of ending Ashe's childhood as it's time to man up and stay alpha. :D

Moreover, while we don't know the full extent of how vulnerable duplos are in society, the fact that we do have an example of someone getting bullied into suicide should be more than enough explanation to where dealing with Ashe's secret is a threat to her personal safety and the safety of the people around her.
We can assume, that's the level of LGBT in good old 1980s. But I don't know if they are considered as F or M or if they are allowed to getting wed with some M or F futas. Maybe they aren't discriminated in law in any form, but simply aren't accepted in society.

That's one of interesting points of this game, actually. I'm waiting for more worldbuilding in future updates. LORE! LORE! LORE!

Well, as I just pointed out, the last duplo that got "outed" ended up getting bullied and antagonized to suicide so there's not much to say about any 'normalization' and instead it would just create victims.
That is neccesary cost for society change, I'm afraid. And I would like to congratulate Morrigan for including said theme in kind of fiction where you don't expect social rights activism fight portrayed to this degree.

I want to see duplo strike signs, slogans about dick and pussy and riots on the streets! :D
 
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Ciaran8023

Member
Jun 4, 2018
388
817
My favourite Sherlock Holmes story of them all was always . And do you know why?

Well, mostly because it gives you "Are we the baddies?" vibe, as Sherlock can't legally do much about that case and decides to become burglar himself and allows some revenge based extrajudicial killing by one of blackmailee who didn't take well that Milverton told what he knew, after he wasn't paid.

In fact, Sherlock in this story becomes someone who absolves Victorian elites from withstanding social criticism for breaking social constrictions they established for everybody else or paying Milverton their broken reputation fee. Instead he destroys evidence of their wrongdoing and lets them to slip out of their woes with unjustified clean slate.

That one short story always made me think, in this case justice didn't triumph. Quite opposite. Despite being portrayed as despicable, Milverton played a role of social custom caretaker. He created his own unofficial sanction system for depravity based on social ostracism and made hipocrites pay for something they officially condemned, but practiced behind closed door anyway with impunity. Milverton nailed them and thanks to him overclass was pushed into conforming to the norms preached.

So this story ending wasn't satysfying at all, but more bitter, as Milverton was useful for social norms hygiene and Holmes couldn't deal with him in bounds of law. Here the criminal was agent of truth and heroes were trying to hide it, helping avoiding scandals which should blow out.

We don't know what intentions are behind the blackmailer of "Eruption Imminnent", but it may be something more sympathethic than we think. Is she acting out of spite for her previous duplo love disappointment? Is that fallout of family feud? Is that really Deli, who can't get attention she needs? I don't know. But reputational blackmailers rarely are true evil, they mostly perform important role of human soul mirrors and they show you something that you want to hide.
A personal 'truth' never supersedes the person it originates from, no one has the right to play with ones personal 'truth', no one has the right to divulge it besides the person who it originates from. That's the absolute very baseline of societal function and someone who cannot respect that is not an individual that should be allowed within society, because they end up being a liability.

A society where anyone and everyone has full freedom to divulge anything and everything about one another becomes a society where trust cannot be reached under any circumstance. It just isn't feasible, even from a thought experiment point of view, and anyone who plays by those "rules" are not people with sympathetic causes, those are people with extremely skewed views on legality and entitlement.

I realize that you're trying to defend the blackmailing arc but it isn't exactly the 'gotcha' you're trying to convey. Reputational blackmailers are true evil because they fundamentally disregard the basis of society and intrapersonal relationships, they are people who do not comprehend the meaning of trust or do anything other than view the person they're blackmailing as a form of entertainment whether through their own awareness or a very skewed emotion towards the blackmailee.

SizeQueenShrine said:
We can assume, that's the level of LGBT in good old 1980s. But I don't know if they are considered as F or M or if they are allowed to getting wed with some M or F futas. Maybe they aren't discriminated in law in any form, but simply aren't accepted in society.

That's one of interesting points of this game, actually. I'm waiting for more worldbuilding in future updates. LORE! LORE! LORE!
I mean you do realize that LGBT in the good ol' 1980's involved people getting beaten to death, right? It was a movement that was not even remotely taken seriously until Matthew Shepard in 1998 with mass attention being drawn to hate crime legislations, so the good laws and booklets regarding LGBTQ+ acceptance are quite literally written in blood. If we are to suppose that the game is at that level of acceptance, Ashe's secret is as I mentioned a threat to her safety and the safety of the people around her. There are no two ways about it.

If there are people in that society that have no qualms with bullying someone to suicide, it also means that there are people in that society that have no qualms with killing someone like that.

SizeQueenShrine said:
That is neccesary cost for society change, I'm afraid. And I would like to congratulate Morrigan for including said theme in kind of fiction where you don't expect social rights activism fight portrayed to this degree.

I want to see duplo strike signs, slogans about dick and pussy and riots on the streets! :D
No, the 'necessary' cost for societal change is a massive movement consisting of tens of thousands of people. Slowly 'outing' people one by one will just make them targets. That's how it's been historically, and I don't think it's any different in this game.

I also wouldn't say that blackmailing and someone getting bullied to suicide is in any way, shape or form 'social rights activism' and the dev also noted that they have no intention nor interest in making a social commentary with it.
 
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Buletti

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Nov 7, 2023
641
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Yeah I kind of don't like that botox look either but for me it seems really mild or barley even there for Vanessa like I don't notice it most of the time. But it could also be cause I really like her. There is a LI in another game that has that botox look in her lips way worse. I didn't like it at first or at all but she became one of my favorite LI across all AVN's and now I don't even notice it at all. Not sure if it's a case I just got used to it or more a case of once I start to really like a character small things I dislike in their appearance aren't really that noticeable to me as im never thinking about it anymore.


I just hope the entire update isn't the party if im being honest that is my only concern but yeah I can't wait for it. I actually hated where the update ended I thought we were gonna get to see the party first.
I think Vanessa is just a classic example of resting bitch face. That compared with her reserved character ("hm") creates this plastic aura. The kissing scene was pretty hot imho.

I feel you about the party. I would think we get a bit more story but I already brace myself for that it will be the next content. Especially how it was set up in this episode. Besides the dev has to maintain 3 branches.

Well, we only can wait and see and keep our fingers crossed.
 
Sep 25, 2020
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A personal 'truth' never supersedes the person it originates from, no one has the right to play with ones personal 'truth', no one has the right to divulge it besides the person who it originates from. That's the absolute very baseline of societal function and someone who cannot respect that is not an individual that should be allowed within society, because they end up being a liability.
That is something to be proved, not declared. I guess the opinions on what the very baseline of societal function is, depends on philosophical stance taken.

A society where anyone and everyone has full freedom to divulge anything and everything about one another becomes a society where trust cannot be reached under any circumstance. It just isn't feasible, even from a thought experiment point of view, and anyone who plays by those "rules" are not people with sympathetic causes, those are people with extremely skewed views on legality and entitlement.
Sigh...
This argument is flawed on two levels.

You could say in the same manner, that scavengers or parasites shouldn't exist in nature, because if every animal was scavenger or parasite, ecosystem could not work. Well, guess what - not all animals are parasites or scavengers, but some really are specialized in these roles and function in niche with the rest of ecosystem. And they are useful to that ecosystem, even if they function on margin of it.

Same goes with people. Not all people in society need to be persecutors or blackmailers. If everyone would, the society would collapse. OK, right. But as you can see, not everyone becomes persecutor or blackmailer - so society is safe in that regard, yet people who play their part in those roles, can make impact on society and influence others, so they could conform to certain societal norms. They can be useful as grease or lubricant for societal gears revolve in orderly fashion.

People have different traits and not everyone is deemed to fill shoes of another. If you're abhorred with an idea, that you should perform a role of reputational blackmailer, you wouldn't be good in that role anyway. If you don't think punishing people for things they are ashamed for or chipping away their reputation after they don't live up to the standard they're preaching, these aren't your shoes. But what's the problem of allowing others to fill them?

The second problem is entry level of blackmail. It's not that with blackmailers, you're destined for public distrust where everyone is ready to backstab another for sake of very trifle matter. You can't blackmail people for peanuts or jaywalking. Usually the calibre of misdemeanor is greater, yet public doesn't know a thing. Exercising shame may be the only way, after official route is closed or wouldn't be sufficient and vigilantism isn't viable.

I realize that you're trying to defend the blackmailing arc but it isn't exactly the 'gotcha' you're trying to convey.
For starters, I don't understand, why I really need to defend it and why it is being attacked in the first place. It may be fine arc. It is unfinished, unresolved, so you don't know, if there is any reason for valid critique yet.

Reputational blackmailers are true evil because they fundamentally disregard the basis of society and intrapersonal relationships, they are people who do not comprehend the meaning of trust or do anything other than view the person they're blackmailing as a form of entertainment whether through their own awareness or a very skewed emotion towards the blackmailee.
Nah, in most cases they are simply low-key vigilante types. They take matters in their own hands, deal unofficially with other people dirt, so there is some kind of retribution for imposters and douchebags who can avoid the law, but nevertheless are societal pain in the ass for others.

I mean you do realize that LGBT in the good ol' 1980's involved people getting beaten to death, right? It was a movement that was not even remotely taken seriously until Matthew Shepard in 1998 with mass attention being drawn to hate crime legislations, so the good laws and booklets regarding LGBTQ+ acceptance are quite literally written in blood. If we are to suppose that the game is at that level of acceptance, Ashe's secret is as I mentioned a threat to her safety and the safety of the people around her. There are no two ways about it.
OK. And why a character in computer game should have a guaranteed safe space in the story? Why duplo acceptance in game world mustn't be quite literally written in futa blood? What's the problem of telling the story of LGBT or race relations in disguise of shemale adventures which are gonna mimic struggle for rights?

No, the 'necessary' cost for societal change is a massive movement consisting of tens of thousands of people.
Which won't show up, if you don't put coffins first and show them. So?
I also wouldn't say that blackmailing and someone getting bullied to suicide is in any way, shape or form 'social rights activism' and the dev also noted that they have no intention nor interest in making a social commentary with it.
That's nice ass coverage, but art itself in funny, intrinsic way makes its own social commentary despite creator's vision, because we can comment on what we're experiencing in game and our impression matters the most.
 
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Ciaran8023

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Jun 4, 2018
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That is something to be proved, not declared. I guess the opinions on what the very baseline of societal function is, depends on philosophical stance taken.
It has been proven, it's the type of society we currently live in as you may not have noticed but blackmail and coercion are both illegal. There's no "philosophical stance" on whether or not blackmail is morally justifiable because it simply isn't in any situation.

SizeQueenShrine said:
Sigh...
This argument is flawed on two levels.

You could say in the same manner, that scavengers or parasites shouldn't exist in nature, because if every animal was scavenger or parasite, ecosystem could not work. Well, guess what - not all animals are parasites or scavengers, but some really are specialized in these roles and function in niche with the rest of ecosystem. And they are useful to that ecosystem, even if they function on margin of it.

Same goes with people. Not all people in society need to be persecutors or blackmailers. If everyone would, the society would collapse. OK, right. But as you can see, not everyone becomes persecutor or blackmailer - so society is safe in that regard, yet people who play their part in those roles, can make impact on society and influence others, so they could conform to certain societal norms. They can be useful as grease or lubricant for societal gears revolve in orderly fashion.

People have different traits and not everyone is deemed to fill shoes of another. If you're abhorred with an idea, that you should perform a role of reputational blackmailer, you wouldn't be good in that role anyway. If you don't think punishing people for things they are ashamed for or chipping away their reputation after they don't live up to the standard they're preaching, these aren't your shoes. But what's the problem of allowing others to fill them?

The second problem is entry level of blackmail. It's not that with blackmailers, you're destined for public distrust where everyone is ready to backstab another for sake of very trifle matter. You can't blackmail people for peanuts or jaywalking. Usually the calibre of misdemeanor is greater, yet public doesn't know a thing. Exercising shame may be the only way, after official route is closed or wouldn't be sufficient and vigilantism isn't viable.
I mean firstly, trying to somehow equate blackmailing to animalistic scavengers is utterly absurd.

No society will ever be only divided into two categories, nor did I claim so, that being said however, if there's a society where blackmail is entirely legal and everyone functions on a "too bad, you should've never told anyone about your secrets" type of mentality then the vast majority of humans will turn to blackmail at one point or another, and the overall threat of blackmail will make utterly sure that trust doesn't exist.
You're somehow trying to argue some high-horse socialistic moralist viewpoint that disregards any part of actual 'society' in favour of some skewed view of personal justice where no secret is allowed to exist and blackmailers for some reason HAS to exist for the status quo, atleast that's how it comes off.

Also, you absolutely can blackmail people for peanuts or jaywalking, because what you might think is inconsequential doesn't mean that the person getting blackmailed does, this is also a fallacy you fall into when you disregard the human in the equation.
Moreover, some people are just vehemently against letting others control them, which is another issue you'd come across if you decide to blackmail someone over 'peanuts'.

SizeQueenShrine said:
For starters, I don't understand, why I really need to defend it and why it is being attacked in the first place. It may be fine arc. It is unfinished, so you don't know, if there is any reason for valid critique yet.
I don't think many people here are arguing the actual blackmail story arc outside of just disliking it, but rather pushing against the notion that the blackmail is somehow 'good' and morally correct. If you are solely arguing that the blackmail arc is somehow integral for the story then that's one thing, but the way to put things makes it seem like you are arguing for the sake of the blackmail itself being justified and good which is where I think most people here start to disagree.

SizeQueenShrine said:
Nah, in most cases they are simply low-key vigilante types. They take matters in their own hands, deal unofficially with other people dirt, so there is some kind of retribution for imposters and douchebags who can avoid the law, but nevertheless are societal pain in the ass for others.
You do realize that what you just said doesn't disprove any of what I said?
A vigilante working outside is evil because they're someone who has decided that they alone should become the judge, jury and the executioner all at once. Regardless of what 'punishment' they decide, it is inherently evil to shove their skewed views onto others and harm others for the sake of it.
That's not to say that you can't agree with them or what their actions are, but again that doesn't mean that their actions aren't evil.

SizeQueenShrine said:
OK. And why a character in computer game should have a guaranteed safe space in the story? Why duplo acceptance in game world mustn't be quite literally written in futa blood? What's the problem of telling the story of LGBT or race relations in disguise of shemale adventures which are gonna mimic others?
I think you're misunderstanding the point of what I wrote. You're saying that Ashe is fine to be subjected and outed likely because you believe that it's good for her character development and very much underestimating how easily humans can hate (which again ties into your fallacy when removing humans from equations).
And why shouldn't a protagonist have a safe space in a story? This is something I've mentioned to the dev itself before but if you have a protagonist that CONSTANTLY just lose, where every single situation ends up being extremely detrimental to them, that isn't going to be an enjoyable story because you encounter viewer fatigue, and it's something a fair few people in here are already struggling with.
And you again seem to misunderstand my point there, I was not arguing that one shouldn't tell a story like that, but rather that you woefully underestimate just how violent and brutal those years of LGBTQ+ were and to elaborate once again why that is an issue; the blackmail means that Ashe's personal safety is in question and the people around her.

I don't think many people will enjoy this game if the blackmail goes through and all of the sudden Evelyn gets jumped and gets put in the hospital for just being associated with a duplo for example. This is also why a lot of people tend to get annoyed when others downplay the severity of blackmail.

I understand why you're not putting any weight on blackmail as you clearly remove any and all humans when you start to question morality, which doesn't really work as with any system that functions with humans in mind, you have to actually factor in the humans into that system.

SizeQueenShrine said:
That's nice ass coverage, but art itself in funny, intrinsic way makes its own social commentary despite creator's vision, because we can comment on what we're experiencing in game and our impression matters the most.
Sure, I don't disagree that it ends up taking a stance on societal commentary inadvertantly but it still doesn't mean that it was intended, nor that we'll get much fleshing out of it either.
 
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Sep 25, 2020
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It has been proven, it's the type of society we currently live in as you may not have noticed but blackmail and coercion are both illegal. There's no "philosophical stance" on whether or not blackmail is morally justifiable because it simply isn't in any situation.
Well, Block shows you there is such stance and demonstrates society uses legitimized forms of blackmail to achieve certain goals, so obviously even by today standards there are morally justifiable instances. And who says today standards of society are well enough balanced and infallible?

No society will ever be only divided into two categories, nor did I claim so, that being said however, if there's a society where blackmail is entirely legal and everyone functions on a "too bad, you should've never told anyone about your secrets" type of mentality then the vast majority of humans will turn to blackmail at one point or another, and the overall threat of blackmail will make utterly sure that trust doesn't exist.
Most likely they will create certain taboo topics and will guard them. Because that's what people do, when they have free hand with their way of life and are pressured to establish any group rules.

You're somehow trying to argue some high-horse socialistic moralist viewpoint that disregards any part of actual 'society' in favour of some skewed view of personal justice where no secret is allowed to exist and blackmailers for some reason HAS to exist for the status quo, atleast that's how it comes off.
I just think that blackmailers are playing unconsciously supporting role of scattered corps maintaining the established social order. They rely on what is generally considered right and wrong in society and use it for their own benefits, taking aim at people who don't follow the rules and by doing so, they are helping to hold morality code in society. Whatever that code really is. Blackmailers are for status quo and against social change as such. They are conservative force, really.

Also, you absolutely can blackmail people for peanuts or jaywalking, because what you might think is inconsequential doesn't mean that the person getting blackmailed does, this is also a fallacy you fall into when you disregard the human in the equation.
Well, I guess it's possible to blackmail a person for a jaywalking, perhaps if that person is a policeman who tries to make a career and get a promotion to higher position in power and in his former job issued many fines for jaywalking. If publishing that could harm his chances for getting new post, the blackmailer can offset social stigma and his own profit and blackmailee knows there is some instance that keeps standards he compromised.

Individually people may not like being blackmailed, but on collective level it's just another way of keeping them accountable for their deeds, even when government and official justice branch is ineffective.

I don't think many people here are arguing the actual blackmail story arc outside of just disliking it, but rather pushing against the notion that the blackmail is somehow 'good' and morally correct. If you are solely arguing that the blackmail arc is somehow integral for the story then that's one thing, but the way to put things makes it seem like you are arguing for the sake of the blackmail itself being justified and good which is where I think most people here start to disagree.
At the moment "Eruption Imminent" is going into "black students duplo-futas on university" protests direction and game portrays "steam brewing in the kettle" society dynamics, so I don't see how blackmail arc fit into something completely different than forcing Ashe to take a stand for duplos, as she is one of them and has her own kind of societal pressure on herself. She can be blackmailed and blackmail works, because duplo stigma in whole society portrayed in the game works as well.

But we don't know why blackmailer stress tests Ashe and what is real reason behind that.

We don't know if duplo stigma is grounded in reality. Maybe they are really succubus-like, can't control their lust, and sooner or later most of them will turn into notorious family breakers, prostitutes and sex offenders, so bad fame is well deserved? At the moment, we only know one duplo in teenage years and Ashe may be minority within minority. So it's too early to say who is right, and who is wrong on this matter. We just know some part of demographics and their worldviews, but nothing really solid to decide for our own.

If duplo stigma is deserved, society can defend its well being by issuing warning about duplos being horny troublemakers that are bound to demoralize your friends and close ones, so beware. And if so, blackmailers conservative actions may have some merit.

I like that the game at the moment holds its ambiguity on that issue and everyone in the audience can think whatever, as it's going to be unchecked. But story can twist in both directions and Ashe may demoralize Fiona, Delilah or even her own sister.

You do realize that what you just said doesn't disprove any of what I said?
A vigilante working outside is evil because they're someone who has decided that they alone should become the judge, jury and the executioner all at once. Regardless of what 'punishment' they decide, it is inherently evil to shove their skewed views onto others and harm others for the sake of it.
I don't think so. It's terrible when only officials can partake in serving justice. If so, civilians, let's call them, people within society outside political power don't have proper incentives for keeping their moral compass sharp and react when justice is being ommited or neglected.

Vigilantes help to compromise ineffective powers, because if those are passive, someone else needs to do their job. Otherwise nobody will do anything and injustice wins. So I think vigilantes and blackmailers are auxilliary, bottom, self-organized Levée en masse force. Good men with pitchforks and torches.

I think you're misunderstanding the point of what I wrote. You're saying that Ashe is fine to be subjected and outed likely because you believe that it's good for her character development and very much underestimating how easily humans can hate (which again ties into your fallacy when removing humans from equations).
And why shouldn't a protagonist have a safe space in a story? This is something I've mentioned to the dev itself before but if you have a protagonist that CONSTANTLY just lose, where every single situation ends up being extremely detrimental to them, that isn't going to be an enjoyable story because you encounter viewer fatigue, and it's something a fair few people in here are already struggling with.
Dystopias have their fans. I don't see problems with Orwell's "1984" and that book is something just like you've described. I don't know on what trajectory Ashe really is, and I'm gonna judge that when story will be concluded. At the moment VN's messaging is quite open to every option. It can end in a downer (Ashe is going to commit suicide as well, as another bullied duplo and player could decide about it), in many neutral ways or in some heroic arc. I don't know. I'm going to judge it as a whole, when it's going to be concluded in its final form.

Right now, I have a lot of fun with it and every interpretation of portrayed facts and events.

And you again seem to misunderstand my point there, I was not arguing that one shouldn't tell a story like that, but rather that you woefully underestimate just how violent and brutal those years of LGBTQ+ were and to elaborate once again why that is an issue; the blackmail means that Ashe's personal safety is in question and the people around her.
Well, I don't know if that game won't turn into satirical mockery of social movements and their struggles either. It can go lighthearted or smug, turn into parody or do many other bizarre things in tone. So I'm open with that as well. If it's going to be funny, even with blackmail arc, so be it.

I understand why you're not putting any weight on blackmail as you clearly remove any and all humans when you start to question morality, which doesn't really work as with any system that functions with humans in mind, you have to actually factor in the humans into that system.
I don't even know why anybody would like to treat this story so damn seriously and moan about evil portrayal, like we would live still in times of Hays code, where you couldn't show something or you were instructed how to do it.

Let's assume for a moment blackmail is ultimate evil, worse than rape or paedophilia and has no social functions at all. OK. But what's wrong with evil portrayal in media. Killing is wrong, yet people play shooters all the time. So why blackmail causes such butthurt here.

I think Morrigan can tell that story whatever way she wants to. She can turn morality upside down in her creation or do questionanle things to messaging, if that is going to serve some artistic purpose or even make someone think after such provocation. It's fiction. Who cares what people do expect from this? What makes art memorable is when it surpasses our expectation and go in unexpected direction.

It can start as usual tolerance teaching piece and turn into tongue in cheek "Birth of Nation" with futa-KKK at the end. If it plays twist well, who cares? It's just entertainment.
 
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