VN Ren'Py Abandoned Fallen Roads [v0.2] [Boketto Games]

[eddie987]

It may have broke out into a fight. I gave my reasons why I thought Bryce would want to avoid a fight. Because they were no longer kids on a playground and as a drug dealer, he would want to avoid the cops from getting involved.


I don't need to make the assumption that all conversations went the same way. We know how the last one went. And on that conversation, he gave no indication that he didn't want her to go.

So... The last conversation between the MC and Ava was enough to convince you that all the previous ones were the same, but Bryce provoking the MC wasn't enough to make you think that he would do the same thing in every situation... By the way that provocation was the first thing that came out of his mouth... Just saying...

I don't know. I only gave why I thought he wouldn't.


Not every person. Just some.


I didn't present it as proof. I presented it as a possibility.

Like everyone else is doing here, yet you keep asking for proof...

 

[clowns234]

So... The last conversation between the MC and Ava was enough to convince you that all the previous ones were the same

I never claimed they were all the same. My point was that previous conversations wouldn't matter. As far as we the player know, it was his final comment on the subject.

If I say a car is red but then change my answer to blue as my final answer, then my answer is blue. It no longer matters that my previous answer was red.

Unless the MC was lying - which is possible but based on the conversation, seems unlikely. If he was doing it just to be a 'good boyfriend' than that's on him. As I said, I wouldn't do that.
[/QUOTE]

 

[eddie987]

I never claimed they were all the same. My point was that previous conversations wouldn't matter. As far as we the player know, it was his final comment on the subject.

If I say a car is red but then change my answer to blue as my final answer, then my answer is blue. It no longer matters that my previous answer was red.

Unless the MC was lying - which is possible but based on the conversation, seems unlikely. If he was doing it just to be a 'good boyfriend' than that's on him. As I said, I wouldn't do that.

Yeah, that's not how relationships work. Couples can argue about something, but eventually reach a compromise. The MC tells her "remember to not go overboard" so in this case the compromise could be that she'll go to the party but she won't drink more than one beer or something like that. Just because he eventually accepted it, doesn't mean he didn't argue against it before, it only shows that he trusted his girlfriend. If he was sure she'd go to that party no matter what he'd say, fighting about it just a few hours before, would be like giving her drugs himself.

 

[NorWest]

If we stick to the red and blue car analogy, it seems to many that we have been shown a very clearly red car but the car owner is later telling us that the car is blue.
One thing I find strange is when the MC enters the bedroom, Ava looks in pristine order, makeup and all - as she is fresh from the shower/bathroom (getting ready for more action?). And the makeup is clearly not inked/waterproof as it is smudged by the first tear. No sign of vomiting, being drugged, hangover, other nightly escapades....

 

[clowns234]

If we stick to the red and blue car analogy, it seems to many that we have been shown a very clearly red car but the car owner is later telling us that the car is blue.
One thing I find strange is when the MC enters the bedroom, Ava looks in pristine order, makeup and all - as she is fresh from the shower/bathroom (getting ready for more action?). And the makeup is clearly not inked/waterproof as it is smudged by the first tear. No sign of vomiting, being drugged, hangover, other nightly escapades....

I would say we were told there was a car and it was implied that it was red. Later we were told that it might be blue.
From what I have seen, using this analogy, we haven't got to see the car yet.
As for the make-up... You might have something - or it might just be a limitation of working with Daz Studio to make renders. I commend you on your attention to detail.

 

[Osamabeenfappin]

Holy Shit y'all,what if Annie's cross country trip,is because Dick is using her as a drug mule?

 

[PJWhoopie]

Once again, your theory only holds up if we assume the conclusion that she must have went there to cheat. Guilty until proven innocent. .

At this point in the story, we have no idea why she went there. If you look over it, and view the cut and pasted dialogue and screen shots, all we get is that "She went to say goodbye to Bryce" and Natasha and Sarah. and stuff.

She seems to intentionally leave her reasoning vague (or the DEV does).

So lets fall back on our history. All we have to go on is that
BRYCE IS HER DEALER.
Natasha and Sarah are SKANKS
Ava had a Crush on Bryce at one point.
Bryce and most of his friends/brothers are bullies
All Ava's friends don't like the MC

We never see or hear anything about Bryce doing CPR on Ava's kitten or Saving her Life or any bullshit scenario.

We don't get anything saying how trusting, or what good friends they are or weren't from any of the game so far. We just know that Bryce was a bully, he dealt drugs to the school, and all the relationships seem to be built around drugs/dealing and bullying the MC.

Now we all take our own life experiences to fill in the gap. Me personally, I've seen chicks blow dealers who they FUCKING CAN"T STAND, just for the opportunity to buy drugs from them.

So I don't know what Ava's motivation is, and neither does anyone else save the DEV. But with what is presented to us before she goes to that party, most of us are perplexed that she would even HAVE to say goodbye to BRYCE.

But whether she goes to the Party with the Intent to Cheat or not, is moot. (Haven't we already discussed this)?

Because once she gets to the party, there is a cascade of bad decisions made by AVA that culminate with her being naked, in bed with BRYCE.

As stated before, and backed up with screen shots.
She Drank and Did Drugs... Refute that?
She Danced with Bryce, and ground her ass against his dick on the dance floor. Refute that?
She exchanged glances with Bryce and they both decided to go upstairs to fuck... this was made clear in the screen shots. Refute that?

So whether she went to the party with the intent to Cheat or not, doesn't really matter because here she is, later in the evening, GOING UPSTAIRS WITH BRYCE TO FUCK.

And for everyone at the party, who saw her go up stairs, THEY KNEW what her and Bryce's intent was too, so much so that Natasha comments on it when Bryce returns.

Interesting to note too, that is the last that ANYONE else sees of Ava until after the MC arrives in the morning.

All this is presented to us by the DEV. This is not Sarah's version of what happened, its not Ava's version of what happened, it isn't anyone but the DEV. And because of that, we rank it, or should Rank it, at the highest level. DEV SAYS - and we, the players see ITS A RED CAR.

CHPT 2

Again, as has been stated before, THIS version of the party is AVA's she is retelling the events to Annie first and then the MC.
*and this is where/why I think the DEVs story goes off the rails as he shows us things that Ava couldn't see, but because this story is told to us through AVA, it all becomes suspect as Ava isn't a reliable witness.

But what would Ava really know? If the DEV truly meant to relay the story through her, then is she telling Annie and the MC about how she danced on the dance floor? In her version, she staggers up to the room and Bryce catches her... does she say this to garner sympathy from Annie/MC in her retelling?

If she did pass out after the rebuffing Bryce... truly, the only things she would know is:
Hey, I went to bed (here at the party house) with my clothes on, and the next thing I know you, the MC come in the room shouting my name. I jump out of bed and discover "I am naked". AVA SAYS... BLUE CAR!

Again, we can't say she was raped, because in BOTH versions we don't see it... it is IMPLIED, but SHE never says she was raped she just seem to believe something must have been slipped into my drink (or laced in my joint)... so an equal argument could be made that Bryce just likes to sleep naked, and he undresses his bed mate so they are naked too.


I applaud the DEV for jumping back into the discussion. I think he sees where "some" of us are not following his intended path.
It has been said countless times already, that, "it will be interesting to see the next chapter" to see if it clears up the ambiguity.


Just from informally looking though the posts, I'd say its probably 80% to 20% in favor of those that think AVA bears the burden of responsibility for bad choices and putting herself in situations that she shouldn't have been in.
This makes it a difficult car ride if the game is about THESE three characters on a road trip.

 

[clowns234]

At this point in the story, we have no idea why she went there. If you look over it, and view the cut and pasted dialogue and screen shots, all we get is that "She went to say goodbye to Bryce" and Natasha and Sarah. and stuff.

She seems to intentionally leaves her reasoning vague (or the DEV does).

So lets fall back on our history. All we have to go on is that
BRYCE IS HER DEALER.
Natasha and Sarah are SKANKS
Ava had a Crush on Bryce at one point.
Bryce and most of his friends/brothers are bullies
All Ava's friends don't like the MC

We never see or hear anything about Bryce doing CPR on Ava's kitten or Saving her Life or any bullshit scenario.

Now we all take our own life experiences to fill in the gap. Me personally, I've seen chicks blow dealers who they FUCKING CAN"T STAND, just for the opportunity to buy drugs from them.

So I don't know what Ava's motivation is, and neither does anyone else save the DEV. But with what is presented to us before she goes to that party, most of us are perplexed that she would even HAVE to say goodbye to BRYCE.

But whether she goes to the Party with the Intent to Cheat or not, is moot. (Haven't we already discussed this)?

Because once she gets to the party, there is a cascade of bad decisions made by AVA that culminate with her being naked, in bed with BRYCE.

As stated before, and backed up with screen shots.
She Drank and Did Drugs... Refute that?
She Danced with Bryce, and ground her ass against his dick on the dance floor. Refute that?
She exchanged glances with Bryce and they both decided to go upstairs to fuck... this was made clear in the screen shots. Refute that?

So whether she went to the party with the intent to Cheat or not, doesn't really matter because here she is, later in the evening, GOING UPSTAIRS WITH BRYCE TO FUCK.

And for everyone at the party, who saw her go up stairs, THEY KNEW what her and Bryce's intent was too, so much so that Natasha comments on it when Bryce returns.

Interesting to note too, that is the last that ANYONE else sees of Ava until after the MC arrives in the morning.

All this is presented to us by the DEV. This is not Sarah's version of what happened, its not Ava's version of what happened, it isn't anyone but the DEV. And because of that, we rank it, or should Rank it, at the highest level. DEV SAYS - and we, the players see ITS A RED CAR.

CHPT 2

Again, as has been stated before, THIS version of the party is AVA's she is retelling the events to Annie first and then the MC.
*and this is where/why I think the DEVs story goes off the rails as he shows us things that Ava couldn't see, but because this story is told to us through AVA, it all becomes suspect as Ava isn't a reliable witness.

But what would Ava really know? If the DEV truly meant to relay the story through her, then is she telling Annie and the MC about how she danced on the dance floor? In her version, she staggers up to the room and Bryce catches her... does she say this to garner sympathy from Annie/MC in her retelling?

If she did pass out after the rebuffing Bryce... truly, the only things she would know is:
Hey, I went to bed (here at the party house) with my clothes on, and the next thing I know you, the MC come in the room shouting my name. I jump out of bed and discover "I am naked". AVA SAYS... BLUE CAR!

Again, we can't say she was raped, because in BOTH versions we don't see it... it is IMPLIED, but SHE never says she was raped she just seem to believe something must have been slipped into my drink (or laced in my joint)... so an equal argument could be made that Bryce just likes to sleep naked, and he undresses his bed mate so they are naked too.


I applaud the DEV for jumping back into the discussion. I think he sees where "some" of us are not following his intended path.
It has been said countless times already, that, "it will be interesting to see the next chapter" to see if it clears up the ambiguity.


Just from informally looking though the posts, I'd say its probably 80% to 20% in favor of those that think AVA bears the burden of responsibility for bad choices and putting herself in situations that she shouldn't have been in.
This makes it a difficult car ride if the game is about THESE three characters on a road trip.

I see no need to refute what happened at the party nor have I tried. What happens at the party no longer matters once you see her reject Bryce. Unless you are going to argue that those actions at the party somehow justifies rape or justifies him jumping into her bed naked as she lays there passed out or that somehow having sex with an inebriated person is not rape. Even if she had went there to cheat (which there is nothing to suggest she did), that doesn't matter once she rejects him.

'an equal argument could be made that Bryce just likes to sleep naked, and he undresses his bed mate so they are naked too.'
I assume you're not arguing that undressing a passed out girl and then getting into bed with her naked is OK.

If Ava was awakened by the MC's yell, she would see immediately that she was naked and that Bryce was in bed next to her. Seems logical that Ava would assume that the MC would assume the worst. I would. "It's not what you think" seems like a legitimate response. Ava said it wasn't what it looked like and offered to explain later - but then she didn't get the chance. I posted the dialog.

Appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy.

Where does the Dev say it was a red car, i.e. that she cheated?

 

[v1900]

I see no need to refute what happened at the party nor have I tired. What happens at the party no longer matters once you see her reject Bryce. Unless you are going to argue that those actions at the party somehow justifies rape or justifies him jumping into her bed naked as she lays there passed out or that somehow having sex with an inebriated person is not rape. Even if she had went there to cheat (which there is nothing to suggest she did), that doesn't matter once she rejects him.

'an equal argument could be made that Bryce just likes to sleep naked, and he undresses his bed mate so they are naked too.'
I assume you're not arguing that undressing a passed out girl and then getting into bed with her naked is OK.

If Ava was awakened by the MC's yell, she would see immediately that she was naked and that Bryce was in bed next to her. Seems logical that Ava would assume that the MC would assume the worst. I would. "It's not what you think" seems like a legitimate response. Ava said it wasn't what it looked like and offered to explain later - but then she didn't get the chance. I posted the dialog.

Appeal to popularity is a logical fallacy.

Where does the Dev say it was a red car, i.e. that she cheated?

Antonie van Leeuwenhoe answered your last question (he responded directly to you). That the dev said it was originally intended as consensual cheating. That is why the reaction from her when she sees Leo/MC is "It´s not what it looks like" and "I'll explain it later". That is why everybody is telling those are the excuses of someone who cheats. Because in real life dose are the excuses someone who cheats uses.

That is part of the argument mate. The fact that she wanted to cheat hasn't changed, the only thing that changed is that she wasn't awake, what changed is the half assed last moment rewrite that starts with the LEO!! moment. In essence the whole original narrative is still true (consensual cheating) but she stops at the last moment because she remembers Leo. Then Bryce makes his play. But for it to actually happen Ava needs to lose half her neurons and decide to spend the night there.

 

[PJWhoopie]

Who, ever, in this entire thread, tried to justify rape?

At best what was said, was she (Ava) put herself in a bad situation.

Who, in this thread, said that having sex with an inebriated/passed-out person against their will isn't rape?

Even if she had went there to cheat (which there is nothing to suggest she did), that doesn't matter once she rejects him.

In my post above, I had already stated that "we don't know" why she went, except to say goodbye, and Natasha, and Sarah, and stuff....
So I, at least, am not making the argument that she went to the party with the sole intent to cheat... what I am saying is that regardless of initial intent, EP 1 DOESN"T SHOW HER REJECTING BRYCE... it shows two people, with the intent to Fuck, go upstairs to fuck.
AND it shows the next morning, her naked in bed with BRYCE.
There is your red car dude. The DEV showed two people going upstairs after giving each other "knowing" glances, to fuck. And we the player, get to see her in bed with Bryce in the morning.

EP2
The details of the party, including her rejecting Bryce, are fed to us by Ava... we only have Ava's word, as told to Annie first and the the MC that she thinks she was slipped Molly. She tells us she rejected Bryce, She tells us she accidentally called Bryce "Leo/MC" while he was groping her on the bed before they were going to fuck. Ava, is telling the MC that it was a blue car.

And again, to this is what we have been pointing out/and arguing over for the last 10 pages... How the events were portrayed was/is a weak part of this story. Some say it was poorly written, some say it was a change of focus due to negative feed back, yadda yadda, you should know you've read it all... and I think that has been proven true, uhhh..... just from the sheer fact the DEV chimed in to say, Uhhh... yeah, I guess I left some important stuff out, and Yep, my bad, I'm going to clear it up in the next installment.

And again, in Ava's retelling of her version, she doesn't say, "I WAS RAPED" all we know is that they were both in bed, together, naked. Regardless, we only know THIS side of the story because Ava herself relayed it to us.

If you are all in on Ava... GREAT! I hope the DEV gives you lotsa opportunities to white knight for her.

All the logical "fallacy" crowd wants, who believe that a pretty decent argument has been laid that paints Ava as a liar and a cheat that can't be trusted, is to have choices that reflect that, as they don't want to be stuck in the car with her.

If he wants to add future cucking scenarios that might only benefit a few of the players, he can do that to, I don't care what anyone clicks on.

And I find it interesting, that "after" Ava is caught, she (Ava) seems more concerned about protecting Bryce than sorting things out with her Boyfriend...

 

[Osamabeenfappin]

And I find it interesting, that "after" Ava is caught, she (Ava) seems more concerned about protecting Bryce than sorting things out with her Boyfriend...

This to me is a key point.

 

[ben_sylar]

All the logical "fallacy" crowd wants, who believe that a pretty decent argument has been laid that paints Ava as a liar and a cheat that can't be trusted, is to have choices that reflect that, as they don't want to be stuck in the car with her.

The only choice I want is to be able to tell her I don't believe a word she says. But I wouldn't hold my breath for that, usually devs don't give that choice.

Also we got a 'who dunn it' on our hands. Someone send MC a picture, presumably of Ava and Bryce naked. The only one we know who had MCs number for certain is Ava. My guess is that one of her bitch friends got her phone and send that text.

 

[clowns234]

Who, ever, in this entire thread, tried to justify rape?

At best what was said, was she (Ava) put herself in a bad situation.

Who, in this thread, said that having sex with an inebriated/passed-out person against their will isn't rape?



In my post above, I had already stated that "we don't know" why she went, except to say goodbye, and Natasha, and Sarah, and stuff....
So I, at least, am not making the argument that she went to the party with the sole intent to cheat... what I am saying is that regardless of initial intent, EP 1 DOESN"T SHOW HER REJECTING BRYCE... it shows two people, with the intent to Fuck, go upstairs to fuck.
AND it shows the next morning, her naked in bed with BRYCE.
There is your red car dude. The DEV showed two people going upstairs after giving each other "knowing" glances, to fuck. And we the player, get to see her in bed with Bryce in the morning.

EP2
The details of the party, including her rejecting Bryce, are fed to us by Ava... we only have Ava's word, as told to Annie first and the the MC that she thinks she was slipped Molly. She tells us she rejected Bryce, She tells us she accidentally called Bryce "Leo/MC" while he was groping her on the bed before they were going to fuck. Ava, is telling the MC that it was a blue car.

And again, to this is what we have been pointing out/and arguing over for the last 10 pages... How the events were portrayed was/is a weak part of this story. Some say it was poorly written, some say it was a change of focus due to negative feed back, yadda yadda, you should know you've read it all... and I think that has been proven true, uhhh..... just from the sheer fact the DEV chimed in to say, Uhhh... yeah, I guess I left some important stuff out, and Yep, my bad, I'm going to clear it up in the next installment.

And again, in Ava's retelling of her version, she doesn't say, "I WAS RAPED" all we know is that they were both in bed, together, naked. Regardless, we only know THIS side of the story because Ava herself relayed it to us.

If you are all in on Ava... GREAT! I hope the DEV gives you lotsa opportunities to white knight for her.

All the logical "fallacy" crowd wants, who believe that a pretty decent argument has been laid that paints Ava as a liar and a cheat that can't be trusted, is to have choices that reflect that, as they don't want to be stuck in the car with her.

If he wants to add future cucking scenarios that might only benefit a few of the players, he can do that to, I don't care what anyone clicks on.

And I find it interesting, that "after" Ava is caught, she (Ava) seems more concerned about protecting Bryce than sorting things out with her Boyfriend...

I don't think anyone would try to justify rape. That was my point, and why there is no reason to even talk about what happened at the party. She rejected him once they were in the bedroom.

We were intentionally led to believe it was a red car but at no point are we shown the red car (we still don't know what actually happened - we don't even know for sure if they had sex).

I have no vested interest in her cheating or not cheating. I honestly could care less. If a case can be made that Ava is a liar and a cheat, I haven't seen it. The dialog I went back and reviewed (and posted) doesn't show it. If it exists, please post it.

' And I find it interesting, that "after" Ava is caught, she (Ava) seems more concerned about protecting Bryce than sorting things out with her Boyfriend...'
How did you arrive at this conclusion? What exactly did she do to protect Bryce?

'Ava, is telling the MC that it was a blue car.' Wouldn't this be the Dev telling the player. When did Ava tell the MC anything about what happened that night?

 

[eddie987]

The only choice I want is to be able to tell her I don't believe a word she says. But I wouldn't hold my breath for that, usually devs don't give that choice.

Also we got a 'who dunn it' on our hands. Someone send MC a picture, presumably of Ava and Bryce naked. The only one we know who had MCs number for certain is Ava. My guess is that one of her bitch friends got her phone and send that text.

Yeah, I don't think you're the only one who wants that choice, but I don't see that happening either.

I think it was probably Dick or Bryce himself. Natasha was the only one who seemed surprised to see the MC there and Sarah was smoking the joints three at a time, so she was most likely already too far gone when that happened.

 

[ben_sylar]

Yeah, I don't think you're the only one who wants that choice, but I don't see that happening either.

I think it was probably Dick or Bryce himself. Natasha was the only one who seemed surprised to see the MC there and Sarah was smoking the joints three at a time, so she was most likely already too far gone when that happened.

Dick, maybe. Smug grin and on his way out of the house when MC arrives.
Bryce, probably not. Seemed to be asleep when MC enters his room.

Natasha is the purple haired one? She is also the one to tell MC that its enough when he is beating Bryce. My money is on her.

 

[clowns234]

Antonie van Leeuwenhoe answered your last question (he responded directly to you). That the dev said it was originally intended as consensual cheating.

That Dev said he changed his mind. I see nothing to show that he is lying. It doesn't change what we have now.

 

[eddie987]

Dick, maybe. Smug grin and on his way out of the house when MC arrives.
Bryce, probably not. Seemed to be asleep when MC enters his room.

Natasha is the purple haired one? She is also the one to tell MC that its enough when he is beating Bryce. My money is on her.

No, that's Sarah. I don't know, she's the only one who questioned the MC's beating when they were in school, so she seems to be the only one who doesn't actually hate him and she was already high as fuck long before Ava walked upstairs with Bryce. Natasha hates him for no reason or at least did when they were back in school, but like I said she seemed surprised when she saw him there. Something else we don't know for sure is when did Annie date Dick. If it was before that, he had a very good reason to fuck with him and he was also the one "pushing" Bryce towards Ava.

 

[v1900]

That Dev said he changed his mind. I see nothing to show that he is lying. It doesn't change what we have now.

It changes everything mate. Remember that this all started because we all said there were inconsistencies in the plot. The events did not change, they still are the events used for the consensual cheating plot. The rape events where added on top of the cheat events. That is why it all started mate. That is all we have been trying to tell you mate.

The dialogue when Leo catches them is the dialogue used for the consensual cheating plot, which do not fit with the rape plot unless Ava just remembers that she went upstairs to fuck Bryce but do not remember saying no. Are you still following mate? The author just added the rape variable but it did not took away Ava's desire to cheat. That is what all of us are telling you.

That is why this Happened:



If this would be representative of rape Ava would have been happy that the MC is beating Bryce. What we have here is she being surprised that Leo/MC is beating Bryce and is on her way to stop Leo but suddenly repents and stays in place. Dude that is part of the original consensual cheating plot. For it to have the meaning you want, the dev would have to rewrite and re-render the whole party scene.

 

[clowns234]

No, that's Sarah. I don't know, she's the only one who questioned the MC's beating when they were in school, so she seems to be the only one who doesn't actually hate him and she was already high as fuck long before Ava walked upstairs with Bryce. Natasha hates him for no reason or at least did when they were back in school, but like I said she seemed surprised when she saw him there. Something else we don't know for sure is when did Annie date Dick. If it was before that, he had a very good reason to fuck with him and he was also the one "pushing" Bryce towards Ava.

My working theory is that Annie was working with someone at the party to set up / break up Ava and the MC. Because that would make for the most in-game drama down the road - maybe?

 

[clowns234]

It changes everything mate. Remember that this all started because we all said there were inconsistencies in the plot. The events did not change, they still are the events used for the consensual cheating plot. The rape events where added on top of the cheat events. That is why it all started mate. That is all we have been trying to tell you mate.

The dialogue when Leo catches them is the dialogue used for the consensual cheating plot, which do not fit with the rape plot unless Ava just remembers that she went upstairs to fuck Bryce but do not remember saying no. Are you still following mate? The author just added the rape variable but it did not took away Ava's desire to cheat. That is what all of us are telling you.

That is why this Happened:

View attachment 1454462 View attachment 1454464

If this would be representative of rape Ava would have been happy that the MC is beating Bryce. What we have here is she being surprised that Leo/MC is beating Bryce and is on her way to stop Leo but suddenly repents and stays in place. Dude that is part of the original consensual cheating plot. For it to have the meaning you want, the dev would have to rewrite and re-render the whole party scene.

If she had been passed out and just woke up, she would be confused - and somewhat guilty, for no other reason than she put herself in this position. Not seeing how this is defending Bryce though.

I will go back and review the end of Chapter1. I will let you know what I think.

BTW, I have maintained all along that she made some bad choices. Taking that first drink was one of the first.