Female Protag Corruption games and what is wrong with them.

[Ataios]

...and with 329 Patrons and more than a 1000$ in support this one is another testament that the majority of players wishes to see more female protagonists that are a little slow upstairs to put it mildly...and why should one write a story that corrupts a intelligent woman...it's so much harder to do with little payoff while stupid works...again...dumb is easy....dumb works well...:tiredface:

Rubber dolls are easy too, but they are not necessary sexy. Same goes for dumb. Of course there are people with different tastes, but for me stupidity is one of the most repulsive qualities a woman can possibly have.

The main reason why there are more male protagonist games than female protagonist games, is the greater variety of tastes and preferences when it comes to female protagonist games.

As far as male protagonist games go, it's quite straight forward (pun intended). Man meets women, seduces or corrupts and eventually fucks them. Generic protagonist, a lot of men can identify with and lot of women find sexy. Some archetypical women to fuck and you have a solid player base.

When it comes to female protagonist games, there are those who want to drop naive girl into a camp of raping barbarians. On the other hand, there are people like myself, who prefer lesbian games and don't want to see any male characters in their porn games. There are straight women who want a realistic story about a straight romance.
Even as far as the corruption aspect goes, tastes vary. Some like naive girls, who are easily swayed (I don't!). Other like to explore the deeper, darker desire of otherwise strong and self-confident women - wether it is to break them or to go through that aspect of their lives, nobody would ever think exists.

 

[DarthSeduction]

...and with 329 Patrons and more than a 1000$ in support this one is another testament that the majority of players wishes to see more female protagonists that are a little slow upstairs to put it mildly...and why should one write a story that corrupts a intelligent woman...it's so much harder to do with little payoff while stupid works...again...dumb is easy....dumb works well...:tiredface:

But she's not dumb, the writing is dumb... does that not make sense to you? Elena might not be as smart as Anna or Katie, but she's another fully grown adult who for some reason functions like she's got some sort of mental issue. This is a woman who's raised a child, and who worked as a waitress for years who is all of the sudden so mentally fucking retarded that she can't handle a 17 year old boy with daddy issues.

Have you played this one? Seriously? In this game, her obvious Weinstein of a boss is groping her as he shows her something on a computer at the school library where she's just gotten a job. The soon to be step-son who attends the high shcool walks in on the scene and accuses her of being a slut because some guy put their hand on her ass. He then uses this as blackmail, telling her he'll tell his dad that she's cheating on him. Are you fucking kidding me? What universe do we live in where its the fault of the woman when the skeezy fat ass piece of shit decides to grope her?

The premise makes my brain hurt because its stretched so fucking thin that it can't be plausible. Again, I've said you can make this story and do it right, but there's a requirement, I have to believe that your character was born sexy yesterday. Like she has never before had to deal with human sexuality, like she has no concept of her own beauty, like she has no concept of sex, like she doesn't know what is appropriate or what is not. If you can present me with that character, again, think Tron Legacy, Weird Science, Splash, 5th Element (though admittedly you're playing with fire here), or literally any other similarly naive character, then this premise works. But until then the entire format is broken.

Also, I'd like to talk about a logical fallacy people keep making. Big Brother is objectively a bad game. It made 25k a month on patreon. The free market isn't really the best at making the right choices. Apple products are objectively inferior, yet due to popular opinion they have a premium pricetag and a huge market share. Oreo's weren't the first cheap chocolate cream filled cookie, they were just the one that advertised best. Major Pizza chains are objectively worse than local pizzarias but they still manage to attract a much larger customer base.

People pay for things because they are convenient. Elena's Life, Katie's Corruption, Anna's Exciting Affection, etc, are all in the ball park of games that people want to play. Apparently a little over 300 people are willing to support Elena's Life on the off chance that it gives them something worth fapping to. Hell, I here with this thread, am just as guilty as all of them, I too downloaded and played these games. Played Katie's corruption all the way through, made it pretty far into Anna's Exciting Affection, I played all of DMD and most of both MotH and BB and had I had money to throw at them who knows what might have happened. Each and every one of these games has potential. You can make a game with a dumb protagonist who just keeps getting herself stuck in a situation where she has to fuck her way out of it, but you have to do it right. I'm not saying don't make the corruption game, I'm saying make the game with a character who responds accurately.

Chel, who's disagreed with me from the start on this thread had this to say a little over a month ago when I was asking for advice on writing a character from a female perspective

One thing that usually makes me cringe in fPoV games is that when they are in a critical setting, lets say that they are about to lose their job and their only way out and keep the job is to fuck the boss. Very often, she wont be able to do it just because her "bad girl" stat or "lust" stat isn't high enough. Desperate times call for desperate measures. It might just be me who finds this dumb, but if i was left in that position, id fuck the guy 100%.

Maybe write it so that sex is more of tool for her. Like, she uses sex (and being sexy) as a way to get what she wants from men.

So even she, who has defended these games, has this negative view on the way these characters are being written. We as a customer base have every right to demand quality from our porn developers. We shouldn't sit back and accept that the low quality smut they produce is good enough. But as long as people keep defending them on their "art is subjective" bullshit logic that doesn't actually play because even something as subjective as art has rules and structure, we will continue to have the same cookie cutter games with no actual substance, just a few fappable scenes that we had to work hard for.

 

[The-real-Vastitas]

Have you played this one? Seriously? In this game, her obvious Weinstein of a boss is groping her as he shows her something on a computer at the school library where she's just gotten a job. The soon to be step-son who attends the high shcool walks in on the scene and accuses her of being a slut because some guy put their hand on her ass. He then uses this as blackmail, telling her he'll tell his dad that she's cheating on him. Are you fucking kidding me? What universe do we live in where its the fault of the woman when the skeezy fat ass piece of shit decides to grope her?

The premise makes my brain hurt

...you literally gave it a shot to get some creative sexy ideas and ended up having a headache...sounds like a lot of fun:coldsweat:

I haven't played that game since v.0.2 or something and after your post I am glad I did not gave it a second chance.

Big Brother is objectively a bad game.

Agreed I tried to force myself playing it...trying to understand the success but to me this one is just unbearably bad, obviously apart from the renders which one would think with 25k support should be animated throughout.

We as a customer base have every right to demand quality from our porn developers. We shouldn't sit back and accept that the low quality smut they produce is good enough.

I too rather have a good story full of unforeseen twists and believable progression but...obviously non of that really matters as long as the art is good enough to release some steam...I don't know why exactly ( maybe marketing) but a lot of creators that go the extra mile creating an adult game which isn't dumbed down to a painful degree suffer in the way of Patreon support...The Humbling Experience for example is in my mind a well written piece but it took over a year for that project to be considered moderately successful...if it is a risk to create a ambitious game with a story that is worth calling it a " game" than it is easy to understand why developers opt to dish copy/paste tropes...parodies and easy to digest depth-less and often senseless content...as long as that pays off it is quantity above quality for sure.

 

[DarthSeduction]

...you literally gave it a shot to get some creative sexy ideas and ended up having a headache...sounds like a lot of fun:coldsweat:

I haven't played that game since v.0.2 or something and after your post I am glad I did not gave it a second chance.


Agreed I tried to force myself playing it...trying to understand the success but to me this one is just unbearably bad, obviously apart from the renders which one would think with 25k support should be animated throughout.


I too rather have a good story full of unforeseen twists and believable progression but...obviously non of that really matters as long as the art is good enough to release some steam...I don't know why exactly ( maybe marketing) but a lot of creators that go the extra mile creating an adult game which isn't dumbed down to a painful degree suffer in the way of Patreon support...The Humbling Experience for example is in my mind a well written piece but it took over a year for that project to be considered moderately successful...if it is a risk to create a ambitious game with a story that is worth calling it a " game" than it is easy to understand why developers opt to dish copy/paste tropes...parodies and easy to digest depth-less and often senseless content...as long as that pays off it is quantity above quality for sure.

If I'm completely honest, the reason the better games have a harder time is because the developers aren't able to spend as much time networking. Last night on the developer's hub we were having a conversation about whether or not it was worth it to have DRM, if said DRM would bring more patrons, because they couldn't pirate it. Jill Gates, dev behind Sword of Wonder, Romancing the Kingdom, and Superspy Steve had this to say:

Literally: the more places I've shared my games, the more I've been making.

We talked about the success of summertime saga, which is objectively one of the better life sims out there, even if I don't like it for my own reasons, I recognize its quality writing regardless. How, they manage to be one of the most successful games on patreon in spite of their releasing the game for free at the same time as every release. And you can't tell me that game isn't ambitious or different with that art style. What developers who are successful are doing isn't always making the best game, its making sure that their games reach more people. In essence, if your audience is larger, your consumer base is larger.

 

[IhaveNoPornAndIMustFap]

I wanna defend Big Brother here for a second. Big Brother has two strengths. The first and most obvious one is the quality of the CGs. Whenever someone posts a CG from Big Brother, people immediately go "Holy shit what game is this" - Because it just looks that much better than the average Daz fare. You can argue it's not always well lit or this and that pose looks unnatural, but when you compare it to the average Daz-rendered porn game, it looks absolutely fantastic. And this is the primary way by which Big Brother sells itself - It just looks so damn good. This should be a lesson to devs - If you want your game to sell, you need it to look fucking fantastic. Even if you have to go as far as Big Brothers dev and make everyone essentially expressionless in every shot, because that still looks less off-putting than the disfiguring facial expressions Daz generates.

The other thing that Big Brother does well, what is more subtle, is creating an "atmosphere of lewd" - Whatever you do, there's some lewd undertone to it. You move around the house, there's always someone to spy on, or someone to talk into a lewd massage. It creates this constant undertone of lewdness even when you're doing mundane shit like cleaning the pool, because there's the choice between that and letting your sister give you a handjob. A lot of games fail at creating this sort of atmosphere, because they're utterly linear and you have to go through 15 minutes of boring, non-lewd plot exposition shit - or you have something with the potential for lewd, but because you're not at that "stage" of the game yet, nothing lewd happens, especially in "retard in lechertown" type games. We disconnect from the main character because we as players want to see something lewd happen, while the retard main character appears completely oblivious and misses the chance to be lewd. Max from Big Brother is a pervert and thus we can connect to him - he's in it for the same thing we (the player) is. Compare this to "Retard in Lechertown" protagonists - What's she in it for? Elena wants to make her useless and impotent boyfriend happy I guess? Or pay the rent for her whore daughter who might as well be turning tricks for the rent money? Yeah fuck that. The character is not only an idiot, but not in it for the same thing we are.

Here, Coceter Chronicles does it right again - From the very start, Tabitha is horny and sexually aware, and in it for the same reason you are - Whether that goal is safeguarding ones virginity and going for all the girly girls, or milking every cock on the planet.

Now what Big Brother obviously does badly is the grind. Whenever you need to repeat a scene identically X number of times when X is greater than 1 to generate progress - The game designer failed at his job. Because then, as a player I do not know if I'm actually progressing here at all or if I have to do something else to trigger progress. It's a game design fauxpas, this type of grind is a crutch that devs do to pad out the game length at the cost of quality. Nothing destroys the carefully crafted lewd atmosphere more quickly than having to repeat the same sexual interaction a number of times. Yeah, you get a handjob from your mum, or you buttfucked your sister, now do it 10 more to trigger the next stage. This ruins all the sexiness. One of my most popular tropes in the porn game trope thread was "the russian grind", and Big Brother is a prime example of that. If you are a dev and you have this concept in your game, you need to find a new job. In an MMO it can work to give the player the quest to gather 50 bear asses, as we have a counter on how many bear asses we've gathered, we know we're gathering 50 bear asses in the first place, and we can try different strategies in farming the bears and gathering their asses. But if you have to get 10 handjobs to progress "The Stairway" to blowjobs, it makes no sense, it's a boring repeat of the same scene over and over that sucks out all the lewdness out of it, and we don't even have a counter (because the counter would underscore how idiotic the concept is) on how many times we've got to repeat this shit or if we're even progressing at all.

 

[DarthSeduction]

The first and most obvious one is the quality of the CGs. Whenever someone posts a CG from Big Brother, people immediately go "Holy shit what game is this" - Because it just looks that much better than the average Daz fare.

So, here's the thing, for 25k a month his art could be 1000x better. He has no excuse for the fact that he doesn't have animated scenes. Kinney, the developer of Inevitable Relations makes art that is just as good if not better than Dark Silver and he's not making 25K a month. There's an artist on the Hub who makes some of the most well posed, well lit, high quality art I've ever seen with daz and he's not even getting paid. With the money the game is making there's no excuse for this. If DS isn't good enough to take it up a notch he makes more than enough to pay someone who is. Hell, he could pay several people who are and make his game much better.

The other thing that Big Brother does well, what is more subtle, is creating an "atmosphere of lewd" - Whatever you do, there's some lewd undertone to it. You move around the house, there's always someone to spy on, or someone to talk into a lewd massage. It creates this constant undertone of lewdness even when you're doing mundane shit like cleaning the pool, because there's the choice between that and letting your sister give you a handjob.

This might be the thing I hate most about this and similar titles. It makes me feel gross. Don't get me wrong. I don't really believe in true love or monogamy, so I don't care that the games are all about sleeping around. What I have a problem with is the chronic behavior of a sexual predator. The fact that the game is written from a perspective of someone who is taking advantage of his family members and not as someone who has legitimate feelings for them and them for him. In fact, while I would say that BB has better writing than MotH I would also say that MotH did a better job of making it feel like the characters were in this together than BB, which at every step makes me feel like the bad guy who is pressuring the women around me into a sexual relationship that they don't want.

This is why a lot of people criticize the NTR haters by talking about how Max is the least redeemable character in porn. He's the exact same person as Eric, the only difference is he doesn't have money and is related to the characters. Eric makes the perfect foil for Max because he is Max. Playing as max makes me feel dirty, and I eventually stopped because it wasn't getting better. I thought for sure after my little sister and I started the whole mutual masturbation thing that we'd start having an actual loving relationship, but it kept being one of convenience, where I was simply the only guy around and she was simply the next slut on my list.

A lot of games fail at creating this sort of atmosphere, because they're utterly linear and you have to go through 15 minutes of boring, non-lewd plot exposition shit -

Depending on the game this might be a legitimate complaint. However it might just be a stylistic complaint overall. For instance, my first release is gonna be about 45 minutes worth of game. It starts with a relatively violent sexual assault, then spends about a half hour just spending time getting to know the characters before it ends with two lewd scenes. So technically, you're going to have that 15 minutes of non-lewd plot. However I have avoided exposition as much as possible. The thing is, not all games are fuck fests. Not all games should be.

Now, if the game was the same style game as BB then hell yeah 15 minutes of some non-lewd bullshit would be a detriment, but again I'd prefer something non-lewd to something that makes me feel like a sexual predator.

Now what Big Brother obviously does badly is the grind. Whenever you need to repeat a scene identically X number of times when X is greater than 1 to generate progress - The game designer failed at his job

I think 3 would be a better number, but I'm glad we came to this part of the discussion because here is where I can really tear into BB. I won't cherry pick specific points from the rest of this because you and I totally agree with your post from here on out. View of Family is my go to to demolish BB and MotH. Mia from VoF is, in my opinion the hottest character in any of the porn games I've ever played. And the art on the whole is generally pretty good. The story with the characters progresses in a much less strange way, in my humble opinion. Now, that's not to say that there aren't repeated events, however, I think the dev has created repeated events that make some actual real world sense.

The situation with Mia specifically is really well done for me. First of all, she's already attracted to you. This, I cannot stress enough, should be the prerequisite for any and all incest games. Stop making me pressure women who don't want it into sex unless this is a rape game. Moving on though, you find out from her that she's not doing well in class. Being both her older brother and a tutor by trade, you offer to help her study, and then learn that she thinks the teacher might also just hate her. A few days later she calls you because she's in trouble at school and doesn't want mom to find out.

So you head over to her school and find out two things. First, her teacher is the teacher who you fucked in high school and got fired for having a relationship with a student. Second, the reason she was in trouble was that she was watching porn in class. So you, have her go wait outside and decide to have a talk with the teacher... and by talk I mean you get her to fuck you again, just like old times, and then blackmail her into giving your sister an A, because apparently the school doesn't know about her past. While you're fucking her though, you notice Mia watching you from the hallway and touching herself.

You later confront her about this and she explains that her boyfriend left her because she had no experience with sex, and eventually she begs you to teach her. You relent, deciding to do so, but on one condition, she has to sit with you and learn her subjects first. So you spend like two or three days tutoring her before you reward her with the first lesson. Then repeat that for 2 or 3 days again. Till the next lesson. However, this isn't the only way you interact with Mia. You also can go meet her at the beach for an hour every day, and you can find her in the living room for two hours each day. During those times you can get her to do certain evolving lewd things based on how far along you are in her sex lessons. Yes, these are repeated events, but the progression is swift enough, and their premise realistic enough, that they don't feel like grind.

The progression with the mom might even be better than the sister. Unlike the other, similar games, that have you advance progress with your mom through completion of certain events like in MotH where you try to massage her, then you get her drunk so you can go further, etc. That feels gross, because you're taking advantage of her. In VoF, once again... mom has feelings for you... even before you start to progress with her she tells you one morning that she had a dream that you and her had a family together, she laughs it off, but it shows early on that she's subconsciously seeing him as a potential mate. So when you go to watch TV with her and rub her legs casually it feels like a more natural courtship. However, this is an incest game, and incest isn't a normal courtship, so the stairway takes a bit more. I don't remember if the first Mother Son date happens before or after you talk to the psychiatrist about your mother's recent divorce, but regardless, you have a date with her, and in the heat of the moment kiss. Mom of course has an existential crisis because you're her son, but you are ok with it so you convince her to come with you to the psychiatrist again. This psychiatrist tells you its ok, that some people express their love in different ways and its good that you're getting closer.

Then of course, you go on another date, things go even further, and mom has another crisis. However this isn't normal. So before you convince the psych to talk to her again, you actually convince the psych into an incestuous relationship with her own daughter. This allows you to get her to convince your mother to go further with you and in turn things keep progressing in this fashion. Now, there is some grind in between all these events. But that grind is natural, its sitting with your mom, watching a movie, and rubbing her legs. Its going from rubbing her legs to her jacking you off, or letting you touch her. And yeah, it takes a few times to get her comfortable with more, but its not like you spend 25 minutes of gameplay repeating the actions more like 5.

But again at every point both characters are into this, both characters want the lewd activities to continue, to progress, to happen. It makes a huge difference in gameplay because it makes the female characters more than just archetypes with no will of their own. Instead of feeling like date rape, it feels like incest.

 

[IhaveNoPornAndIMustFap]

Hey, I'm going to tl;dr your post to respond to it in a sensible manner

So, here's the thing, for 25k a month his [Big Brother Devs] art could be 1000x better.

Arguably. He also has to do scripting, writing (of runglish) coding and so forth to do. I'm not saying DS is over- or underpaid. What I am saying is that if you want your game to make a shitload of cash, you want it to look as good as you possible can at first glance, and writing and so forth come in at very remote second places. It's not something I like, I'm describing how it is. This is also why I frequently shill for well-written, but shitty looking games like Coceter Chronicles or Good Girl Gone Bad, because I enjoy them and because of their looks, they don't get the attention they deserve. But the market for porn games is incredibly superficial, and badly written, gorgeous looking games make much more money, more quickly, than ugly, well written ones. This is a reality any porn game dev needs to face. Well written games will attract hard core fans who appreciate the writing and shill for it, and maybe have a more lasting impact than the superficial game that's forgotten as soon as the next best glossfest comes along. But a handful of hard core fans don't make 25'000 on Patreon.

As for the "Max is a creep" criticism, this is a remnant from playing older versions I presume. It becomes quite clear with later content (notably post-eric) that the girls quite enjoy the creeping (all girls crave male attention, after all) invite you to watch them dress, and happily let you give them massages and money and all those other beta orbiter things. Later versions have both the younger and the older sister "forcing" some lewdness on you, with the younger sister tying you up while you sleep to have some fun, and the older sister outright blackmailing you into performing for her. I haven't played the latest versions content yet to know if the mom becomes similarly proactive about getting "attention".

View of Family

I've played View of Family and enjoyed it for the most part, but it's as generic a "lewd family simulator" as you can get on the current market. I'm also all over that Mia content, but then I am a sucker for those Imoutos. But here's the thing that I noticed when I was visiting Mia in the school. She's dressed like a gothy bimbo and by far the most lewd looking character in class. Then it occurred to me: Mia could actually be a deconstruction of the "innocent Imouto that you can romance" trope - Mia is probably the greatest whore at her school, blowing and fucking guys left and right when you're not looking, her problem with her female teacher was that she couldn't fuck her without your help like she would all the other teachers, and meanwhile, she's just stringing you along with her innocence act because you (the MC) want to believe it.

The older sister starts out as vaguely the stock standard Tsundere older sister, but if memory serves, I interpreted her mainly as friendless and insecure as all hell and basically a mental breakdown away from becoming a meth hooker. I don't think the dev will go in either of those directions in later updates, because so far, nothing about the game has particularly impressed me with its creativity or deviation from the most basic tropes, but the deconstruction is what I would do if I were to take over the writing for that game. I can't remember anything about the mom that wasn't utterly generic as far as incest porn games go, including the secondary female character to nudge you towards the path of sin (the psychologist taking the role of the Lewd Aunt trope), but I don't remember the game being particularly grindy, as it has a built in hints system that precisely tells you exactly what you need to do next to progress with a character - When you repeat an interaction, for example the Mia lessons, there's small variations to indicate progress, it's not just the same scene over and over and you have to do it this many times to progress. That's important. They're similar scenes, of course, often reusing the artwork and structure, but you do notice the progress in renpy if you fast forward through already-seen dialogue and new lines pop up. And if you don't, there's the hints system. It doesn't do the fauxpas where you just repeat the same thing over and over hoping eventually something new will happen without any indication that this is the case.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Hey, I'm going to tl;dr your post to respond to it in a sensible manner
Arguably. He also has to do scripting, writing (of runglish) coding and so forth to do. I'm not saying DS is over- or underpaid. What I am saying is that if you want your game to make a shitload of cash, you want it to look as good as you possible can at first glance, and writing and so forth come in at very remote second places. It's not something I like, I'm describing how it is. This is also why I frequently shill for well-written, but shitty looking games like Coceter Chronicles or Good Girl Gone Bad, because I enjoy them and because of their looks, they don't get the attention they deserve. But the market for porn games is incredibly superficial, and badly written, gorgeous looking games make much more money, more quickly, than ugly, well written ones. This is a reality any porn game dev needs to face. Well written games will attract hard core fans who appreciate the writing and shill for it, and maybe have a more lasting impact than the superficial game that's forgotten as soon as the next best glossfest comes along. But a handful of hard core fans don't make 25'000 on Patreon.

As for the "Max is a creep" criticism, this is a remnant from playing older versions I presume. It becomes quite clear with later content (notably post-eric) that the girls quite enjoy the creeping (all girls crave male attention, after all) invite you to watch them dress, and happily let you give them massages and money and all those other beta orbiter things. Later versions have both the younger and the older sister "forcing" some lewdness on you, with the younger sister tying you up while you sleep to have some fun, and the older sister outright blackmailing you into performing for her. I haven't played the latest versions content yet to know if the mom becomes similarly proactive about getting "attention".


I've played View of Family and enjoyed it for the most part, but it's as generic a "lewd family simulator" as you can get on the current market. I'm also all over that Mia content, but then I am a sucker for those Imoutos. But here's the thing that I noticed when I was visiting Mia in the school. She's dressed like a gothy bimbo and by far the most lewd looking character in class. Then it occurred to me: Mia could actually be a deconstruction of the "innocent Imouto that you can romance" trope - Mia is probably the greatest whore at her school, blowing and fucking guys left and right when you're not looking, her problem with her female teacher was that she couldn't fuck her without your help like she would all the other teachers, and meanwhile, she's just stringing you along with her innocence act because you (the MC) want to believe it.

The older sister starts out as vaguely the stock standard Tsundere older sister, but if memory serves, I interpreted her mainly as friendless and insecure as all hell and basically a mental breakdown away from becoming a meth hooker. I don't think the dev will go in either of those directions in later updates, because so far, nothing about the game has particularly impressed me with its creativity or deviation from the most basic tropes, but the deconstruction is what I would do if I were to take over the writing for that game. I can't remember anything about the mom that wasn't utterly generic as far as incest porn games go, including the secondary female character to nudge you towards the path of sin (the psychologist taking the role of the Lewd Aunt trope), but I don't remember the game being particularly grindy, as it has a built in hints system that precisely tells you exactly what you need to do next to progress with a character - When you repeat an interaction, for example the Mia lessons, there's small variations to indicate progress, it's not just the same scene over and over and you have to do it this many times to progress. That's important. They're similar scenes, of course, often reusing the artwork and structure, but you do notice the progress in renpy if you fast forward through already-seen dialogue and new lines pop up. And if you don't, there's the hints system. It doesn't do the fauxpas where you just repeat the same thing over and over hoping eventually something new will happen without any indication that this is the case.

I think, in a way, even if Mia doesn't turn out to be that slut, she's definitely already subverted the western porn imouto. Compare her to BB or MotH's little sister and you can't deny that she's A much sluttier, and B far more free willed. That said, the sluttiest dressed character in class is actually the girl who turns out to be your cousin... girl is literally just wearing an open vest and no bra.

As for the idea of the deconstruction, that's what makes me like Dual Family so much. Because that's exactly what it's doing is deconstructing the tropes of the incest games we see, exposing the dark truths behind them.

And, back to dark silver... My point isn't that he's overpaid. It's that he has no excuse for his art not being better. Because the reality is that he's only slightly better than average for Daz work. Anyone who spends time and cares about their art can make good characters in Daz. His are ok. My artist is making some characters that look like no one I've ever seen in a game before though, and they really aren't bad. I can't wait to see what we do when we start actually putting them in scenes. And that's more to my point again. DS doesn't have to do it all. I'm not doing it all and my game hasn't made a dime yet. His game has barely any story, and most of that has been abandoned, and while unity isn't the easiest to code, at this point the framework is already there, he's mostly just adding to it. Same goes for his art, btw. Once you have made and saved your characters its just a matter of putting them into scenes and posing them. You mentioned how you can say that sometimes his lighting isn't perfect or something, but really, that and posing are all his job are at this point unless he introduces a new character.

 

[Ataios]

I have to say, I found the art of Big Brother rather generic. Not bad of course, but not something that made my jaw drop either.

If the game objectively does one thing right, it's creating the ultimate, everybody hates at first glance, Eric is Joffrey Baratheon, Donald Trump and Justin Bieber molded into one character you just have to hate. I see that he would be far less hated, if he were the protagonist of his own game und just went home to fuck his mother and sisters. After all, protagonists of porn games are not quite heroes too. Still as an NPC, he is a figure of absolute hate.

The problem however: Such a villain would be fine for a game like GTA and certainly everybody would love run him over with a car or shoot a bullet through his head. In a very generic, average, fuck your mom and sisters in 3D CG art game, that is meant to appeal to a lot of people, such a character is far less welcome at least to a lot of potential players. I know it's technically not NTR but the scenes involving Eric still gross out many people.

Inevitable Relations in my opinion has artwork that is certainly not worse than Big Brother, though I have to admit that I have a hard time being remotely ojective comparing these to games, as Inevitable Relations based on the scenario has everything that makes me horny, while Big Brother has very little of it and a lot that I don't like. A man has a brain and a penis but not enough blood to use both at the same time. The first mention of the protagonists feelings for her daughter pumped more blood into my penis than everything that can be seen in Big Brother combined.

 

[DarthSeduction]

I have to say, I found the art of Big Brother rather generic. Not bad of course, but not something that made my jaw drop either.

If the game objectively does one thing right, it's creating the ultimate, everybody hates at first glance, Eric is Joffrey Baratheon, Donald Trump and Justin Bieber molded into one character you just have to hate. I see that he would be far less hated, if he were the protagonist of his own game und just went home to fuck his mother and sisters. After all, protagonists of porn games are not quite heroes too. Still as an NPC, he is a figure of absolute hate.

The problem however: Such a villain would be fine for a game like GTA and certainly everybody would love run him over with a car or shoot a bullet through his head. In a very generic, average, fuck your mom and sisters in 3D CG art game, that is meant to appeal to a lot of people, such a character is far less welcome at least to a lot of potential players. I know it's technically not NTR but the scenes involving Eric still gross out many people.

Inevitable Relations in my opinion has artwork that is certainly not worse than Big Brother, though I have to admit that I have a hard time being remotely ojective comparing these to games, as Inevitable Relations based on the scenario has everything that makes me horny, while Big Brother has very little of it and a lot that I don't like. A man has a brain and a penis but not enough blood to use both at the same time. The first mention of the protagonists feelings for her daughter pumped more blood into my penis than everything that can be seen in Big Brother combined.

I get to see the art that Kinney is working on while he's working on it, so believe me that Kinney is an amazing artist. I hadn't even played the game when I first started paying attention to his art. He's working on a scene right now where the mom and daughter are in really sexy dresses walking through what I assume is a mall, and he's worried about the environment looking too empty, so he's gonna have to do more with it. But damn, those ladies look sexy from behind. Yesterday he posted this picture where mom is embracing the daughter from behind and its just the sexiest most intimate thing with the posing.

And now take all that praise I just had for kinney. If his work is great, the other artist I mentioned, his name is Celtic, is fucking godlike. He did this short little series over the last few days where he had this girl do a little strip tease, and everything, the character herself, the posing, the lighting, the expressions, the physics, all of it was fucking perfect.

 

[IhaveNoPornAndIMustFap]

I think, in a way, even if Mia doesn't turn out to be that slut, she's definitely already subverted the western porn imouto. Compare her to BB or MotH's little sister and you can't deny that she's A much sluttier, and B far more free willed.

I really recommend you go through BBs Lisa plotline in its current form. In her current form, she's one of my all time favorite Imoutos, just because of how much of a playful minx she is. If you only played BB until content update 0.4 or some such, you never saw that side of her. Having played VoF's Mia somewhat recently (I think it went as far as getting a "Thumbjob"?? by Mia) I think I saw the influence of BBs Lisa there. I'm still hoping for the "slut reveal" path though, because the "Imouto that REALLY gets into it" has already been done to death.

the sluttiest dressed character in class is actually the girl who turns out to be your cousin

Yes, I did get this far. But next to Mia, the cousin looks like a cheap crackwhore next to Mias 5000$-A-Night cosplay instagram escort.

Man of the House, I only played one of the earliest versions for the Max-Daughter-Crossover and never really got into it. Wasn't memorable I guess.

It's that he has no excuse for his art not being better.

I believe DS is genuinely working very hard, and is for the most part very talented. But as I said, he's just 1 guy. You could make the argument that he could have used the money, for example, to hire a team of pro artists to redo all the art in an even higher quality, but for his sake, I'm glad he didn't. As a coder myself, I'd have preferred it if he hired a coder to redo the game in Ren'py which is a much more suitable (faster and more efficient) engine than the unity crap he's got. If he had spent a large part of that money on an art team or whatever, it'd be wasted now, because Patreon booted him. He did the right thing just cashing in. It was obviously good enough for his patrons, and who are we to argue? Now he's got enough money stockpiled to theoretically start his own Porntreon spinoff.

 

[The-real-Vastitas]

you want it to look as good as you possible can at first glance

We do certainly live in a superficial world and yeah good looking art if drawn ( my preference ) or rendered is a huge draw but all the more visible is the huge gap between art and writing. This is not the first and certainly will not be the last thread that criticizes the silliness of some plots out in the field...

Now what Big Brother obviously does badly is the grind

This and what you describe after is exactly the reason why I can't be bothered playing that game essentially wasting hours on repetitive brain melting click as fast as you can action to finally see something...anything new.
What Big Brother and his creator can do better than anyone else though is getting talked about constantly...

What developers who are successful are doing isn't always making the best game, its making sure that their games reach more people.

fitting perfectly...and is the reason why his monthly sub is well deserved no matter the quality or my personal view on his product.

It was obviously good enough for his patrons

and that's that.
I must be wired wrong I guess but if the story can't convince the art won't either as it can't stand on it's own if it is supposed to be a game....and if it's only about art...well nothing beats the real thing for me...

 

[DarthSeduction]

We do certainly live in a superficial world and yeah good looking art if drawn ( my preference ) or rendered is a huge draw but all the more visible is the huge gap between art and writing. This is not the first and certainly will not be the last thread that criticizes the silliness of some plots out in the field...
This and what you describe after is exactly the reason why I can't be bothered playing that game essentially wasting hours on repetitive brain melting click as fast as you can action to finally see something...anything new.
What Big Brother and his creator can do better than anyone else though is getting talked about constantly...
fitting perfectly...and is the reason why his monthly sub is well deserved no matter the quality or my personal view on his product.
and that's that.
I must be wired wrong I guess but if the story can't convince the art won't either as it can't stand on it's own if it is supposed to be a game....and if it's only about art...well nothing beats the real thing for me...

I think DS earned his spot with the early game, I probably would have listed it as a great game myself had I only played to the point where Eric shows up. Especially since I see the idea of an Eric, acting as the antagonist to your MC as a good thing. The Babysitter is doing this well, with both a weinstein and a black guy who you have to kinda navigate around to make sure your niece ends up with you and not them.

However, later in development he got bogged down by ignorant complaints and a lack of direction and the project fell apart. His characters never develop, his MC becomes more of a little shit, and the game just gets repetititve and boring. People stayed on for the potential, but the game died a long time ago.

 

[Benn Swagger]

There's sand box games type, there's Visual Novel games type. Why people keep comparing Big Brother with Visual Novel games ? Of course in story wise, BB lost heavily to any VN games. Comparing BB with similar Sand Box games. In this, you compare them with The Twist, Man of The House and Super Powered. If you hate all of this games, mean you don't like Sand Box type of games. Which usually, grinding is the main element in this games.

 

[IhaveNoPornAndIMustFap]

There's sand box games type, there's Visual Novel games type. Why people keep comparing Big Brother with Visual Novel games ? Of course in story wise, BB lost heavily to any VN games. Comparing BB with similar Sand Box games. In this, you compare them with The Twist, Man of The House and Super Powered. If you hate all of this games, mean you don't like Sand Box type of games. Which usually, grinding is the main element in this games.

BB is not a sandbox game. It has multiple storylines that the player can play through in his own order, which is not an uncommon feature of VNs, but as the order of those storylines is decided by the player, it is not a fully "linear VN". In a Sandbox game you'd walk around town, explore, and have mechanics to find lewd encounters with randomly generated sluts and so forth. It's a schedule based VN with multiple storylines, the same way that trainer games are often schedule based and have multiple girls to train.

The Twist is the same, it's a non/semi-linear VN with schedule mechanics and RPG elements. Now Superpowered is actually a true sandbox game, but you would barely notice it from the incomplete content. The difference is that Superpowered actually has mechanics - Find slut, activate mindrape powers, have lewds. It also has plotlines that you can follow. The difference is that sandbox games like Superpowered have mechanics to romance or mindrape girls, while VNs - linear or not - have storylines. What you have in nonlinear VNs like Big Brother or The Twist is a bunch of interconnected Storylines that you can approach in any order, it's just the UI that's different from pure linear branching VNs. You do not have mechanics to fuck the handful of girls, it's all based on plot points.

And yes, more player freedom invariably means a less intricate story, because you have to take more and more player degrees of freedom into account when writing dialogue. Which is why BB is still more linear than not, and the UI merely serves to give the player a sense of proactiveness. You *choose* to go peep on the mom, instead of the "peeping on mom" event just happening to you. Which is a good trick, mind you.

A lot of game writers (such as Bioware) will tell you, that because of such player degrees of freedom, the overarching plot matters very little to players in the end, and what is memorable is interesting characters, and the plot only serves to set up a tone by which you encounter such characters and to give them something to react to, i.e. to characterize them. And this is what we're talking about in this thread - A lot of the characters we encounter in these porn games are... Completely unbelievable.

 

[Ataios]

I admit, I dislike Big Brother for purely subjective reaons. But calling Big Brother (or any of the game available here) sandbox is objectivly incorrect, although it is advertised as such.

Having a couple multiple choice descisions and the occasional minigame to earn money doesn't make a game a sandbox. An adventure, if you use the term leniently, but not a sandbox. Sandbox games give player far greater options to build their homes, take part in the games economy and advance their characters skills and professions. Fallout 4, Skyrim, Black Desert Online and Arche Age are sandbox games. Big Brother, Incest Story and Man of the House are not. Calling them sandbox is akin to calling Donald Trump and Kim Jong-Un geniuses. They claim to be, but they are not.

 

[DarthSeduction]

There's sand box games type, there's Visual Novel games type. Why people keep comparing Big Brother with Visual Novel games ? Of course in story wise, BB lost heavily to any VN games. Comparing BB with similar Sand Box games. In this, you compare them with The Twist, Man of The House and Super Powered. If you hate all of this games, mean you don't like Sand Box type of games. Which usually, grinding is the main element in this games.

Actually, no, a sandbox game doesn't have to have a worse story than a VN. Does the VN lend itself to a more simple linear progression in a story? Sure. However, a Sandbox actually presents the creator with the opportunity to tell multiple stories in one game. There's the overarching story, something BB actually started out doing better than it contemporaries, until he rushed it, then chickened out on it, with the eric plot. Then there's each individual character's story. As you deal with mom, your aunt, and both of your sisters, you should learn more about them. There should be development. But even before that, lets start at where almost all Sanbox games fail. Writing characters that fit the story.

BB, MotH, etc, all make you the MC a hopeless pervert attracted to his own fucking family. You're fucked up. You only care about sex. The entire point of the game is that sex. And then they go ahead and write female characters who we are supposed to believe are functioning normally and don't support the theme of the story. In BB your older sister isn't a deviant at all, she's just in love with a women... it makes this into a scandal for no real reason. Your Little sister isn't sexually attracted to you at all. You have to work your ass off and pay her to do the things she does, and at every step convince her again. There's not an ounce of deviancy. Your Mom is the fucking worst. Like really? This woman who let a man come into our home and convince her to spank us naked in front of one another is this pillar of virtue? "Oh but she was kidnapped and raped as a kid so she does whatever people tell her." Bullshit, we never see this in action again.

MotH, at least tries, the little sister is curious about sex and adventurous, however playing it I don't get the impression that you are special to her in any way... just a toy. The older sister has her submissive kink, however its something she learns about after the story starts and sort of comes out of nowhere. The mom is the least believable arc. No woman fantasizes about someone they aren't otherwise attracted to just because he has a big dick.

Now, lets look at two sandbox games who do their part marvelously, View of Family, and Chloe18. Starting with VoF because it's closest to the other two in style and substance, we learn from the very beginning, you, the big brother, are dreaming about one of your little sisters. She wakes you up from that dream, and it becomes immediately apparent that she's attracted to you as well. Early in the game you learn dad has left mom, mom tells you at some point, whether you have initiated any sexual contact with her or not, that she had a dream that you and she had a family with tons of kids, establishing that she sees you as a potential mate, and Mia, god damn I love Mia, is immediately jealous of her older sister the first time you talk to her, saying something like, "Oh did you finally realise you had more than one sister" because she thinks you've been ignoring her and spending time with the older sister. Before any sexual content happens with the older sister, there's the experience on the train in the first day where she cums on your lab due to having sat there with no seats open. Before any sexual content opens with Mia, you catch her watching you fuck her teacher and masturbating after you went to get her out of trouble for watching porn in class. Mom kisses you on the lips and then goes further, putting her tongue in your mouth and has to stop herself.

Immediately, the characters fit the story. They support the incestuous nature of the story even while they each have their individual flavor. Mom is a typical caring mother with a bit of an inferiority complex. The older of your little sisters is a tsundere college student who loves you a lot, but won't admit it to herself. Mia is the perfect deredere imouto slut, like holy hell does she turn me on. Furthermore, along their arcs, there's things to learn and accomplish with them. There's development. Mom is the only one you really have to convince, with a whole very interesting and sexy arc involving a psychologist, and it makes sense you'd have to, it's not normal what she's feeling, but as things go on she's more and more honest with her feelings. Mia has the whole, "learning about sex" arc that she plays to a T, not once making you think that she isn't interested in continuing. The other sister, it's her Tsundere nature that keeps her back, but get her drunk and her true feelings for you come flooding out. She's reluctant because she knows it's wrong but she wants it as much as you.

Then we have Chloe18. This is a sandbox corruption title and every character fits this theme. If they aren't there to further Chloe's corruption, they're there for Chloe herself to corrupt. Every character except for chloe, who I think is flawed in this way, has a progression. Pizza girls starts out a bit of a crazy slut, but shows progression as Chloe slowly but surely convinces her to cheat on her boyfriend. The little nerdy chick doesn't like women, but yet, Chloe slowly but surely gets her going over a series of days. Then there's Hanna, who starts out a pretty normal looking virgin teen, but ends up looking like a hot rocker slut who has lost her virginity to one of her father's business partners, all thanks to Chloe corrupting her.

The one character who isn't written well is Chloe, who in spite of this game being all about her journey into slutiness in order to become a cheerleader, can't admit to herself that she has turned into a slut. The author has kept her innocent reluctance alive when it comes to others. Now, don't get me wrong, they could write scenes where she's reluctant because she doesn't like the guy, but that's not the impression I'm getting, to me, it's because she's refusing to admit she likes it. There's a filthy otaku in the diner that you have given shit to from the beginning, I would believe it if she didn't want him. But the attractive men who are already fucking her? Eh. Plus there's the fact that the dev added in the exhibition stat later in game so it's at zero when the exhibition arc starts in spite of the fact that you've been going to work and school in no panties, masturbating in class, sucking the teacher's dick under the desk during class, fucking multiple guys in the locker room, flashing that filthy otaku for money, working in a glory hole... did I mention that chloe is totally a slut who keeps pretending she's not? Yeah.

So, as you can see. It's absolutely possible for a sandbox game to be well written. The problem isn't the format, its the writer.

 

[IhaveNoPornAndIMustFap]

Actually, no, a sandbox game doesn't have to have a worse story than a VN. Does the VN lend itself to a more simple linear progression in a story? Sure. However, a Sandbox actually presents the creator with the opportunity to tell multiple stories in one game. There's the overarching story, something BB actually started out doing better than it contemporaries, until he rushed it, then chickened out on it, with the eric plot. Then there's each individual character's story. As you deal with mom, your aunt, and both of your sisters, you should learn more about them. There should be development. But even before that, lets start at where almost all Sanbox games fail. Writing characters that fit the story.

BB, MotH, etc, all make you the MC a hopeless pervert attracted to his own fucking family. You're fucked up. You only care about sex. The entire point of the game is that sex. And then they go ahead and write female characters who we are supposed to believe are functioning normally and don't support the theme of the story. In BB your older sister isn't a deviant at all, she's just in love with a women... it makes this into a scandal for no real reason. Your Little sister isn't sexually attracted to you at all. You have to work your ass off and pay her to do the things she does, and at every step convince her again. There's not an ounce of deviancy. Your Mom is the fucking worst. Like really? This woman who let a man come into our home and convince her to spank us naked in front of one another is this pillar of virtue? "Oh but she was kidnapped and raped as a kid so she does whatever people tell her." Bullshit, we never see this in action again.

MotH, at least tries, the little sister is curious about sex and adventurous, however playing it I don't get the impression that you are special to her in any way... just a toy. The older sister has her submissive kink, however its something she learns about after the story starts and sort of comes out of nowhere. The mom is the least believable arc. No woman fantasizes about someone they aren't otherwise attracted to just because he has a big dick.

Now, lets look at two sandbox games who do their part marvelously, View of Family, and Chloe18. Starting with VoF because it's closest to the other two in style and substance, we learn from the very beginning, you, the big brother, are dreaming about one of your little sisters. She wakes you up from that dream, and it becomes immediately apparent that she's attracted to you as well. Early in the game you learn dad has left mom, mom tells you at some point, whether you have initiated any sexual contact with her or not, that she had a dream that you and she had a family with tons of kids, establishing that she sees you as a potential mate, and Mia, god damn I love Mia, is immediately jealous of her older sister the first time you talk to her, saying something like, "Oh did you finally realise you had more than one sister" because she thinks you've been ignoring her and spending time with the older sister. Before any sexual content happens with the older sister, there's the experience on the train in the first day where she cums on your lab due to having sat there with no seats open. Before any sexual content opens with Mia, you catch her watching you fuck her teacher and masturbating after you went to get her out of trouble for watching porn in class. Mom kisses you on the lips and then goes further, putting her tongue in your mouth and has to stop herself.

Immediately, the characters fit the story. They support the incestuous nature of the story even while they each have their individual flavor. Mom is a typical caring mother with a bit of an inferiority complex. The older of your little sisters is a tsundere college student who loves you a lot, but won't admit it to herself. Mia is the perfect deredere imouto slut, like holy hell does she turn me on. Furthermore, along their arcs, there's things to learn and accomplish with them. There's development. Mom is the only one you really have to convince, with a whole very interesting and sexy arc involving a psychologist, and it makes sense you'd have to, it's not normal what she's feeling, but as things go on she's more and more honest with her feelings. Mia has the whole, "learning about sex" arc that she plays to a T, not once making you think that she isn't interested in continuing. The other sister, it's her Tsundere nature that keeps her back, but get her drunk and her true feelings for you come flooding out. She's reluctant because she knows it's wrong but she wants it as much as you.

Then we have Chloe18. This is a sandbox corruption title and every character fits this theme. If they aren't there to further Chloe's corruption, they're there for Chloe herself to corrupt. Every character except for chloe, who I think is flawed in this way, has a progression. Pizza girls starts out a bit of a crazy slut, but shows progression as Chloe slowly but surely convinces her to cheat on her boyfriend. The little nerdy chick doesn't like women, but yet, Chloe slowly but surely gets her going over a series of days. Then there's Hanna, who starts out a pretty normal looking virgin teen, but ends up looking like a hot rocker slut who has lost her virginity to one of her father's business partners, all thanks to Chloe corrupting her.

The one character who isn't written well is Chloe, who in spite of this game being all about her journey into slutiness in order to become a cheerleader, can't admit to herself that she has turned into a slut. The author has kept her innocent reluctance alive when it comes to others. Now, don't get me wrong, they could write scenes where she's reluctant because she doesn't like the guy, but that's not the impression I'm getting, to me, it's because she's refusing to admit she likes it. There's a filthy otaku in the diner that you have given shit to from the beginning, I would believe it if she didn't want him. But the attractive men who are already fucking her? Eh. Plus there's the fact that the dev added in the exhibition stat later in game so it's at zero when the exhibition arc starts in spite of the fact that you've been going to work and school in no panties, masturbating in class, sucking the teacher's dick under the desk during class, fucking multiple guys in the locker room, flashing that filthy otaku for money, working in a glory hole... did I mention that chloe is totally a slut who keeps pretending she's not? Yeah.

So, as you can see. It's absolutely possible for a sandbox game to be well written. The problem isn't the format, its the writer.

Chloe18 (great game btw, there simply aren't enough 'lewd schoolgirl games') is not a Sandbox game either. It is like Big Brother and The Twist, a semi-linear VN. It has no mechanics, all it has is plot progression. And what's the plot of Chloe18? "Schoolgirl becomes slut to become a cheerleader" ? That's a shit plot. What makes Chloe18 great is the crazy characters, and yes, Chloe herself is the most boring of the lot.

Just because you access your various plot points via a location-based menu screen does not make a game a sandbox game. Just because there are multiple locations that you can visit does not make it a sandbox game. Mechanics make a game a sandbox game. If you could go to school or the park and you could use your sexy moves on the various people the same way, and seduce them mechanically, and there could be a shit ton more of locations and people to seduce, and maybe you can get quests like "Suck 10 dicks" and you can suck whatever dicks wherever (easiest in the Gloryhole) then you have probably a Sandbox game. Chloe18 isn't one. It's again, a nonlinear VN.

And the reason nonlinear VNs TYPICALLY have worse stories than linear VNs, and sandbox games have worse stories than nonlinear VNs, is because it becomes increasingly complicated to factor past happenings into the dialogue. The issue where you're already a full blown slut who masturbates in class and goes to school without panties, somehow has to learn to enjoy exhibitionism, is such a problem. Because in the non-linear VN, you could go do the exhibitionism stuff before you do the school slut stuff, and doing one before the other means the other has to take into account that you did the other. You could say the problem of factors to take into account becomes quadratic in non-linear VNs over linear VNs and rises to the cube in a sandbox. You can always write the worst kinetic novel ever and use that as the basis for the argument that interactivity doesn't mean a worse story, but that's missing the point. It becomes harder, as in, more writing effort, to take increasing degrees of player freedoms into account, and, assuming talent and writing effort stays the same, the more degrees of freedom you have - kinetic novel, linear VN, non-linear VN, true sandbox - the more the writing is going to suffer, which is why true sandbox games like Superpowered basically do no longer have coherent writing, instead they have mechanics like the mind control thing or the generic "dating" mechanics to resolve what's happening, and at best write a few unique scenes for each character, the same way you'd have a cutscene after doing a quest for a character in an ubisoft sandbox.

 

[Parmenion1405]

First of all, most of your posts here are longer than avarege, and so i only read a few of them.

My thoughts over all regarding female chars in porn games as NPC or MC

As NPC:
If a Male Protagonist wants to fuck them, they cannot be like women in real life, cos than he would probably get to fuck 1of10 female NPC and it would take a real pain in the ass gameplay to achive it. That most of female NPC are virgins... ok can go with it. That most of them (all are usualy declared 18+) would let the most stupid girl in reallife shine as an Albert Einstein, thats sometimes realy frustrating. Most games have at least one girl there, which does not no how to have sex, and thinks stuff like kissing makes u pregnant.. thats ridiculus. Some of them have superpowers, and are realy into making the world a better place, but at 18/21/24 years they do not know a damn thing about having sex.
And than there is another point somtimes disturbing me, if you play a 18 Year old MC (like in The Twist,BigBrother) with a family around. Why the heck are 18 year old guys so smal... that even slightly older Sisters are taler than him. When i was 15 i was nearly 1 head taler than my mother.
Although even in school settings where usulay one heronie is as a straight A student, she falls easy for the MC and has noe clue about sex...
In one particular game, there you have to enslave girls. Like Teachers or Classmates. And the plot with all of them, is rape them offten enough and they will come adicted to you and your cock,.... its bullshit.

As MC:
Most Female MC are obiously made to entertain the male audience. But MC´s like Chloe18 or other are so off, that you normaly never find a female like them. Universaty students (corruption of Jennifer or so) with fiancé and smart enough to become a doc do everthing what a random NPC orders due to blackmail worse than a childplay. Or they will be tricked into sex with strangers (again Chloe18 beginning looses virinity, later at the sexshop or when she buys a ride) with such obvious methods that in Reallife not 1 in a Million will fall for it, and if some female would fall for it, the guys would be arested the same day for harassment and rape...


End:
I still like some of these games, but i think it is obvious that most games are made by male for male and reasoning and realism does not go well with porn games, but sometimes i would like that the authors use their common sense to establish less stupid, not educated and submissive female chars as NPC or MC. But i guess this wish will not come true any soon

 

[Olivia_V]

First of all, I love that this thread exists. I'm merely tossing into the stew.

For all the bad rap that BB's story elements get, Dark Silver's first long-term porn game featured a female main character who was the antithesis of the "Retard in Lerchertown". She had the missing ingredient... "agency". You want to see her romance her big sister? You had to actively work to make it happen. (It never saw a resolution though, as DS had shifted to BB...) You wanted to seduce your seatmate? Bring her sweets, then see if she'll respond if you touch her leg under the table. The few times antagonists try to force sex on her, she can find a way to wiggle out.

That game was "Glamour". Check out the old one while it's still up, and if you can figure out the Byzantine machinations behind getting the machine translation, you're in for a treat. It will be enough to whet your appetite for the new Glamour. My chief criticism of DS is that he seems incapable of not pandering to his paying audience and just trusting his story.

"Humbling Experience" also strikes the balance. When sex happens to the female protagonist, it is because it has built up to the point wherein you want it to happen to her (those two schoolgirls in the bathhouse...). Otherwise, she can choose not to engage. And more than half the time, she is seeking her own sexual adventures. Her interactions with the shy teacher's pet with a huge crush on her were gold.

Now, can a man write a good female main character? I'm inclined to say no, due to the "no experience of a female perspective" argument... but I'm not so sure. Critics say George Eliot wrote more convincing male characters than female... it turned out that "George Eliot" was the pen-name of a woman. If a female writer can write the opposite gender convincingly, I'm sure the opposite is also true. Plus, according to lesbian feminist professor Camille Paglia, in her long experience, men make better lesbian porn than women... if only because their being more visual allows them to better recreate the voyeur's point of view. So, perhaps one does not need to have a vag in order to write nice and kinky things about those who have it. Also, let's not get into a snobbish "that's not what women fantasize about" line of argument, because women are just as fucked up in the head and loins as men are. Rape fantasies are far more common than y'all think. (Read "The Secret Garden"... one of the ground-breaking works regarding female sexual fantasies.) I like the idea of a woman who wants someone, anyone, to get rough with her... only to find out that everybody around her is far too inhibited to so much as grab her arm.

On a side note...

The feminist world view is actually precisely that of the trope of "retard in lechertown", where no woman is responsible for sex, as all sexual interactions are "done" to her, instead of women actively provoking and desiring them. Fuck feminists.

I fully agree. They went from "hear me roar" to "do you have the time... to listen to me whine." You can't have "strong, independent women" and expect them to be unable to handle the complex sexual dynamics that men and women have mutually built between themselves for millennia.

Those tumblrettes are responding to the idea of sex as a masculine thing that gets forced on them because they've been taught by this society that they aren't allowed to act. That brand of feminism, the conservative librarian looking girl, holding the sign outside of hooters shaming other women for being sluts isn't feminism.

They're both feminism, and both the consequences of the incoherence of the movement. Right now, the Andrea Dworkin "all-sex-is-rape" wing is in the ascendant. The "female sexuality is power" wing (Camille Paglia is possibly the best voice remaining) is waning. Even modern anti-"slut shaming" propaganda is couched on vilifying men who see slutty clothing choices as sexual.