Female Protag Corruption games and what is wrong with them.

[DarthSeduction]

First of all, I love that this thread exists. I'm merely tossing into the stew.

For all the bad rap that BB's story elements get, Dark Silver's first long-term porn game featured a female main character who was the antithesis of the "Retard in Lerchertown". She had the missing ingredient... "agency". You want to see her romance her big sister? You had to actively work to make it happen. (It never saw a resolution though, as DS had shifted to BB...) You wanted to seduce your seatmate? Bring her sweets, then see if she'll respond if you touch her leg under the table. The few times antagonists try to force sex on her, she can find a way to wiggle out.

That game was "Glamour". Check out the old one while it's still up, and if you can figure out the Byzantine machinations behind getting the machine translation, you're in for a treat. It will be enough to whet your appetite for the new Glamour. My chief criticism of DS is that he seems incapable of not pandering to his paying audience and just trusting his story.

"Humbling Experience" also strikes the balance. When sex happens to the female protagonist, it is because it has built up to the point wherein you want it to happen to her (those two schoolgirls in the bathhouse...). Otherwise, she can choose not to engage. And more than half the time, she is seeking her own sexual adventures. Her interactions with the shy teacher's pet with a huge crush on her were gold.

Now, can a man write a good female main character? I'm inclined to say no, due to the "no experience of a female perspective" argument... but I'm not so sure. Critics say George Eliot wrote more convincing male characters than female... it turned out that "George Eliot" was the pen-name of a woman. If a female writer can write the opposite gender convincingly, I'm sure the opposite is also true. Plus, according to lesbian feminist professor Camille Paglia, in her long experience, men make better lesbian porn than women... if only because their being more visual allows them to better recreate the voyeur's point of view. So, perhaps one does not need to have a vag in order to write nice and kinky things about those who have it. Also, let's not get into a snobbish "that's not what women fantasize about" line of argument, because women are just as fucked up in the head and loins as men are. Rape fantasies are far more common than y'all think. (Read "The Secret Garden"... one of the ground-breaking works regarding female sexual fantasies.) I like the idea of a woman who wants someone, anyone, to get rough with her... only to find out that everybody around her is far too inhibited to so much as grab her arm.

On a side note...



I fully agree. They went from "hear me roar" to "do you have the time... to listen to me whine." You can't have "strong, independent women" and expect them to be unable to handle the complex sexual dynamics that men and women have mutually built between themselves for millennia.



They're both feminism, and both the consequences of the incoherence of the movement. Right now, the Andrea Dworkin "all-sex-is-rape" wing is in the ascendant. The "female sexuality is power" wing (Camille Paglia is possibly the best voice remaining) is waning. Even modern anti-"slut shaming" propaganda is couched on vilifying men who see slutty clothing choices as sexual.

The argument from my perspective is pretty simple, the Dworkin angle is a reaction of those who are in bondage to the patriarchy blaming sex on men. It enables the patriarchy more than the women. In this way it's not feminism because it takes power away from them. But maybe that's a simplification. Personally I'm against any form of repression when it comes to sex. I've seen how it just enables the darker parts of our minds to act out violently.

Back to the subject of whether men can write convincing women, as I said before it all comes down to empathy. Its a trait any good writer needs to hone. They need to be able to understand others and their motivations. Also, don't be afraid to ask questions. I have a friend proofread all my work with my MC Alexis, because I know I tend to overcorrect and skew her too mental, not physical enough. Men absolutely can write good female characters. They just need to not do so in a vacuum.

 

[Ataios]

Actual sandbox games (so NOT Big Brother or any game you will find here!) can have great stories, but the story part is usually seperate from the sandbox part. Think of Fallout 4: It has a great story, in both the campaign and sidequests, and it has a sandbox with the settlements, but managing the settlements does not take a large role in the story.

Personally I don't think that will see anything like a sandbox porn game, except maybe in the form a Fallout or Skyrim mod. Developers of porn games usually don't have the ressources to develop an actual sandbox game, although it's up to debate wether could raise the money in a crowdfunding campaign.

When it comes to creating characters for porn games, I think both men and women can create plausible characters of the other gender, though not necessarily relatable to members of the other gender.

Again a good character need not necessarily be a realistic character, just a character fitting in the context of the setting. Sometimes a setting is inherently unrealistic. If I could make a corruption style female protagonist game in a dark fantasy setting with a female (anti-)hero, she would simply tear to pieces anyone trying to rape her or one of her girls. No fear, no insecurity, no tension on her side, just pure power. Is it realistic that a single woman rips a gang of male assaulters apart? No, but it would fit the secenario and show the power of the character.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Think of Fallout 4: It has a great story, in both the campaign and sidequests, and it has a sandbox with the settlements, but managing the settlements does not take a large role in the story.

Bad example imo, as the recent bethesda titles have felt very forced. However, I will work with you here. Piper, Hancock, Curie, Preston, Maccready, Cait, Nick, and Desmond are all fully realised characters in a sandbox game. They each have their own character arc. Curie begins the game as a quirky robot that you find in a secret part of a vault, someone who hasn't seen another living being in close to 150 years, at least. Over the course of her progression she realizes that her function as a medical researcher is inhibited by her lack of senses as a robot. Thus you go on a quest to get her a real body, putting her in a synth. This brings her to life and allows her to experience the breadth of humanity while still maintaining her scientific mind. She falls for you, and if you so choose, you for her. Its compelling and well written.

Each of these characters has a similar journey of self discovery. And that is the thing that Big Brother, Man of the House, and so many similar games is missing. Character depth matters.

A truly great sandbox would be Witcher 3, a game in which, not only you and the other characters have a story, but the world itself has one and that world evolves and changes as the story progresses. This is what's really missing from Bethesda titles, as it feels as if nothing you do matters to the people all that much. Somehow every guard in skyrim knows all your stats, however people talk to you about the dragonborn in the abstract, as if they know nothing about you. In Witcher, you are not a hero of legend, outside of the stories sung by Dandelion, and thus people treat you like they should, with either fear, disgust, or disrespect for your status as a nonhuman. The conflict between humans and nonhumans is the heart of the story in the world and as events move forward the world evolves and those conflicts deepen. Its actually really well built.

Now, I'm not asking for Witcher from Dark Silver or Faerin. I'd be happy with just the level of writing Bethesda gives its companions in the fallout series. That's what's missing. That's what we need in these so called sandbox games. Or, as I really like to call them, Gotta fuck'em'all simulators.

 

[Olivia_V]

Personally I don't think that will see anything like a sandbox porn game, except maybe in the form a Fallout or Skyrim mod. Developers of porn games usually don't have the ressources to develop an actual sandbox game, although it's up to debate wether could raise the money in a crowdfunding campaign.

I, for one, will enjoy seeing someone try in an adult game. That is why I liked the old Glamour so much, despite a lot of nuance getting lost in (machine) translation. There is ambition and vision inside DS. I only hope a bit of courage will follow.

 

[Ataios]

Personally I don't think creating an actual sandbox game is possible, using the tools commonly used to create porn games. But I also don't think, it's necessary.

The romances in games like Fallout or the Witcher are not what makes them sanboxes. Their economy and open worlds do. There are also sandbox games that have a relatively limited campaign story and no relationships to NPCs at all. Think of sandbox MMORPGs like Black Desert Online and Arche Age. They are still sandbox games.

A (purely hypothetical) sandbox porn game would be certainly not be an MMORPGs though (if people want to fuck in MMORPGs, they fuck each other, no NPCs needed). Possibly it would be some sort of harem/corruption game with a costumisable protagonist, who could be of either gender and most importantly a strong ecomomic component. Like: build a palace for your harem, add a bdsm studio with various sorts of fetishes, train women (or men, or futa, or tentacles or whatever you are into), maybe run a brothel or other business to expand your empire. And the most difficult part: You need a relatively large open world.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Personally I don't think creating an actual sandbox game is possible, using the tools commonly used to create porn games. But I also don't think, it's necessary.

The romances in games like Fallout or the Witcher are not what makes them sanboxes. Their economy and open worlds do. There are also sandbox games that have a relatively limited campaign story and no relationships to NPCs at all. Think of sandbox MMORPGs like Black Desert Online and Arche Age. They are still sandbox games.

A (purely hypothetical) sandbox porn game would be certainly not be an MMORPGs though (if people want to fuck in MMORPGs, they fuck each other, no NPCs needed). Possibly it would be some sort of harem/corruption game with a costumisable protagonist, who could be of either gender and most importantly a strong ecomomic component. Like: build a palace for your harem, add a bdsm studio with various sorts of fetishes, train women (or men, or futa, or tentacles or whatever you are into), maybe run a brothel or other business to expand your empire. And the most difficult part: You need a relatively large open world.

To be honest, I'd be happy with a game like Fallout or Skyrim that simply took the step into the adult world. Witcher again takes the lead here, though doesn't go as far as I would. Skyrim with OSA engine and Osex comes close, especially if you add the Mod Amourous Adventures.

But imagine if you cut the entire Shawn aspect from Fallout 4, which would free the player to interact with the world on their own terms. You wake up in an apocolyptic wasteland and have a choice to join the groups fighting to civilize it or join with the ones who keep tearing it apart. Imagine if you could take over the institute and create a brothel full of synths. Or if you could take over the gunners and start kidnapping the people to use as sex slaves. Imagine if you could join the militia, like you do, and fight the various raider gangs, freeing the people from their grasps, and allowing more civilised mundane sexual interactions.

I mean, there's so much potential with the world to be a sex game already, and you could still keep the more heroic aspects. The institute being the boogey man of the commonwealth doesn't go away because you don't have a vested interest. The player could choose to be a hero or to not care and just live their lives however they want to. That would be a true sandbox.

 

[Ataios]

I agree that "normal" (non-porn) games could add some more adult content, at least in way similar to TV shows like game of Thrones. But for some irrational reason developers shy away from that. Maybe because some people still think "games are for kids" or something.

Fallout among the Bethesda games would likely have the greatest potential for adult content - theoretically even some mom-son incest scenes, though from the outside they would look like dad-daughter. The postapocalyptic setting is rather well suited for some of the darker aspects of erotic scenarios, like sexual slavery and some weird fetishes (I don't want to know how Paladin Danse' Power Armor looked from the inside!).

The Elder Scrolls Series would be a good choice for more classical romantic relations. Of course, theoretically, there is room for dark themes here too, but the setting pushes players into a rather heroic direction, I'd call it "noble D&D hero syndrome", an instictive urge to play the good guy in fantasy worlds.

 

[DarthSeduction]

I agree that "normal" (non-porn) games could add some more adult content, at least in way similar to TV shows like game of Thrones. But for some irrational reason developers shy away from that. Maybe because some people still think "games are for kids" or something.

Fallout among the Bethesda games would likely have the greatest potential for adult content - theoretically even some mom-son incest scenes, though from the outside they would look like dad-daughter. The postapocalyptic setting is rather well suited for some of the darker aspects of erotic scenarios, like sexual slavery and some weird fetishes (I don't want to know how Paladin Danse' Power Armor looked from the inside!).

The Elder Scrolls Series would be a good choice for more classical romantic relations. Of course, theoretically, there is room for dark themes here too, but the setting pushes players into a rather heroic direction, I'd call it "noble D&D hero syndrome", an instictive urge to play the good guy in fantasy worlds.

You can probably tell by my Name and Avatar that I don't suffer from noble D&D hero syndrome

 

[Ataios]

You can probably tell by my Name and Avatar that I don't suffer from noble D&D hero syndrome

I ony suffer from noble D&D hero syndrome in fantasy games that actually have a place for noble D&D style heroes. In science-fiction, cyberpunk and post-apocalyptic settings, it largely depends on the background story, wether I lean to the good or evil side. The more serious I take a game, the more likely am I to play on the good side. In games with daily life settings on the other hand I rather suffer from "GTA fuck to world" syndrome (I generally also take daily life games less serious than fantasy or sci-fi).

 

[DarthSeduction]

I ony suffer from noble D&D hero syndrome in fantasy games that actually have a place for noble D&D style heroes. In science-fiction, cyberpunk and post-apocalyptic settings, it largely depends on the background story, wether I lean to the good or evil side. The more serious I take a game, the more likely am I to play on the good side. In games with daily life settings on the other hand I rather suffer from "GTA fuck to world" syndrome (I generally also take daily life games less serious than fantasy or sci-fi).

In most games I'm either True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral. The exception to this is actually cyberpunk because the games are usually very much political and I'm more of a society over the individual type person, so I'm usually the good guy.

When it comes to sex, well that depends on a few things. For instance, mind control is rape, however it's rape of a victim who is for all intents and purposes now willing. So while technically speaking mind control villains are evil, and I would be against them, if I am one, I can allow it... I know it's twisted. However, I find characters like Max from BB repulsive to the point of needing to shower. I prefer romance, or games where you have casual consensual sex. That's why I like Coceter so much.

 

[Cudder]

well actually thats one of my favorite genres lol

 

[DarthSeduction]

well actually thats one of my favorite genres lol

I don't hate the genre, I want to improve the games we see come out of it. My 2 favorite games area I Love Daddy, and Coceter Chronicles. Both are female protagonists who start the game as virgins and become sluttier and sluttier as the game progresses. I played a good deal into Anna's Exciting Affection before I just couldn't take the stupidity anymore. I wanted a good game where Anna was forced to make sexual choices or suffer consequences but what I got was a game where Anna got tricked into stupid situations because she forgot that she's actually briliant. Like really, Anna has been the Hermione Granger of her own game in any situation where she has to learn something or show her knowledge. But the moment sex gets involve she all of the sudden becomes dumb as a box of rocks.

 

[Cudder]

I don't hate the genre, I want to improve the games we see come out of it. My 2 favorite games area I Love Daddy, and Coceter Chronicles. Both are female protagonists who start the game as virgins and become sluttier and sluttier as the game progresses. I played a good deal into Anna's Exciting Affection before I just couldn't take the stupidity anymore. I wanted a good game where Anna was forced to make sexual choices or suffer consequences but what I got was a game where Anna got tricked into stupid situations because she forgot that she's actually briliant. Like really, Anna has been the Hermione Granger of her own game in any situation where she has to learn something or show her knowledge. But the moment sex gets involve she all of the sudden becomes dumb as a box of rocks.

yeah i kinda agree with you, most of the games with this genre have lazy writing/weak story tbh

 

[CuriousG08]

Wow, what a great thread and interesting read! There are some very intelligent and good writers participating in this very thread. I agree with many of your opinions with regard to wanting a more intelligent protagonist or at least one with some freaking common sense, but also see the demand for the "dumb bimbo" type, as well.

What I have noticed over the years is that many programmers just aren't very good writers or artists and many are solo developers. However, I think they are doing the best they can with the skills they possess. It would be a dream if talented programmers, artists, writers, musicians, etc had a good place to establish a team of like-minded individuals, so as to produce a much higher quality game that I'm sure each of them wish for, but cannot muster on their own.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Wow, what a great thread and interesting read! There are some very intelligent and good writers participating in this very thread. I agree with many of your opinions with regard to wanting a more intelligent protagonist or at least one with some freaking common sense, but also see the demand for the "dumb bimbo" type, as well.

What I have noticed over the years is that many programmers just aren't very good writers or artists and many are solo developers. However, I think they are doing the best they can with the skills they possess. It would be a dream if talented programmers, artists, writers, musicians, etc had a good place to establish a team of like-minded individuals, so as to produce a much higher quality game that I'm sure each of them wish for, but cannot muster on their own.

Indeed, that's a goal of mine. We kinda have a developer/artist community here on the board, and more importantly on a discord where we share art and ideas amongst one another. But eventually I wanna make a much larger scale game. I'm a basic programmer and have no digital art skill, so to ever do that I'll need to put together a team. I hope the connections I make here and on discord can lead to that.

 

[redwind21]

A more realistic approach to corruption makes the game more enjoyable to be sure. I think everyone can agree with that. The naive type corruption games are fun, but they do get old. I look at them more like comedy spoofs than anything that's real life. There are a lot of strong, intelligent women in the real world, and no one in the real world is above temptation or corruption. Forced corruption of a female MC is more fun to play than naive corruption.

 

[Ataios]

A more realistic approach to corruption makes the game more enjoyable to be sure. I think everyone can agree with that. The naive type corruption games are fun, but they do get old. I look at them more like comedy spoofs than anything that's real life. There are a lot of strong, intelligent women in the real world, and no one in the real world is above temptation or corruption. Forced corruption of a female MC is more fun to play than naive corruption.

Sorry, I have to say, I can enjoy neither. For me stupidity is the most repulsive quality a woman can have, so I don't like naive curruption games. On the other hand, I mostly like my female protagonists to dominate other women. It may be ok, if she got dominated by another woman in some occasions, but if there are some male assaulters in the game who want to rape her, I want to option to kill them - without any fear or tension, just power, in a non-sexualized way. So even, if, in some part of the game, she has to kneel and lick a domina's boots, she should still be powerful enough, to beat any wanna-be rapist to a bloody pulp.

 

[DarthSeduction]

Sorry, I have to say, I can enjoy neither. For me stupidity is the most repulsive quality a woman can have, so I don't like naive curruption games. On the other hand, I mostly like my female protagonists to dominate other women. It may be ok, if she got dominated by another woman in some occasions, but if there are some male assaulters in the game who want to rape her, I want to option to kill them - without any fear or tension, just power, in a non-sexualized way.

Yeah, but that's more of an artistic complaint than a technical one. Its one thing to make a game that doesn't fit everyone's specific preferences, its another one to make a game that just doesn't make sense and makes you want to scream at its stupidity.

 

[Ataios]

Yeah, but that's more of an artistic complaint than a technical one. Its one thing to make a game that doesn't fit everyone's specific preferences, its another one to make a game that just doesn't make sense and makes you want to scream at its stupidity.

Of course artistic and not technical. I just wanted to state that not everybody necessarily likes forced female MC corruption.

 

[Ataios]

In most games I'm either True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral. The exception to this is actually cyberpunk because the games are usually very much political and I'm more of a society over the individual type person, so I'm usually the good guy.

When it comes to sex, well that depends on a few things. For instance, mind control is rape, however it's rape of a victim who is for all intents and purposes now willing. So while technically speaking mind control villains are evil, and I would be against them, if I am one, I can allow it... I know it's twisted. However, I find characters like Max from BB repulsive to the point of needing to shower. I prefer romance, or games where you have casual consensual sex. That's why I like Coceter so much.

For me sex/romance is somewhat different, that depends mostly on the people involved. When the protagonist is female, playing a lesbian route (MFF threesomes don't count!) is primary, regardless of alignments, though I like it to get some domination too. When there is no lesbian option but a female protagonist, it depends on the sort of game. In case of a porn game, I'll just delete it. In case of a "normal" game, it depends romances option available and the benefits they give stat-wise. If a romance gives her some items or stats that are useful, I'll play them, though it's the blood in my brain and not in my penis that lets me play them. When they don't give her any benefits and the NPC to romance is a jerk, I'll just skip the romance. If I can relate to the guy and I think they make a nice couple, I'll play ist.
For a male protagonist, in normal games, I usually play the romance route with the female character I find most attractive and also stay faithful to her, just as a noble D&D hero does. In porn games there is no fixed rule for wether I find male protagonist games enjoyable, though there are not many. I like some sort of domination or corruption in them (protagonist dominates the women, not the other way round!) but that doesn't automatically make a game enjoyable for me. I usually don't take this games very serious, so I can easily be the bad guy.
For Big Brother I cannot say a lot, except, that the little I have seen of it, is enough to know that I don't like. I find Eric disgusting with the first time he was mentioned and also didn't like the women in the game enough to continue playing. They seem pretty annoying und not very intelligent. I can't say anything about the protagonist, except that I think, he looks far too young. If I were an evil overlord in the world of Big Brother I'd do everybody a favor and use my necromancy to turn the whole bitches and creeps family into zombies.