VN Ren'Py Friends in Need [Ch.1 Remake v0.25] [NeonGhosts]

[Joshy92]

and gives such a better backstory to both of them, plus some other characters pop up too that we only see later in the game

Tell me about it. This whole scene was so beautiful, and I'll think of it if I ever get sad because it'll make me feel better

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[ffive]

I never saw anything Nicky did as an opening to the dark path for guy.

Err, did you perhaps intend to quote someone else's post? Because this has literally nothing to do with anything i wrote. I never even mentioned the dark path..? (at that point, that is) I was only talking about whether update did anything to change portrayal of Nicki.

I think calling him a loser is a bit of a stretch tbh.

Err, you said yourself that the game portrays Guy going from "kind of a loser to a pillar of community". Kind of a loser is still a loser.

Anyway, i've mentioned it before but when i say it, i don't mean the crypto scam specifically. That can happen to anyone. It's the decade which followed that we get a slice of -- apparently spent on little else than feeling worthless, never trying to do anything beyond clinging to a menial job, always keeping your head down, not developing any social contacts beyond ones you're forced to interact with at work, not achieving anything until a miraculous stroke of luck (which was all someone else's doing) delivered insane wealth in one's lap, not even self-reflecting on one's own actions ("i'm gonna ghost my only friend because i fear my new money could change the friendship between us". Yeah, like ghosting her for a month isn't already fundamentally changing the nature of your friendship, you dumbass) ... the list goes on and honestly, calling this package a loser isn't a stretch, but being still pretty kind on him. What you said:

a guy who doesn't take any risks because when he did he lost everything.

Is a large part of it, and this is loser's attitude. "I fell over once when walking, so i'll spend the rest of my life never walking because, imagine it, i could fall over again".

Funnily, it's Guy's interaction with his newly hired lawyer that was sort of the last straw -- i mean, all things considered you'd kind of expect to have some options/reactions at that point. The "Light Side" Guy would maybe try to question at least a little all that nihilism he's being served; and the Dark Guy might appreciate the cynicism, but if he's supposed to be to be a misogynist incel creep, then perhaps with his new wealth he'd push back on getting so clearly patronized by his new female employee. But no. Regardless of his supposed nature, the only thing Guy can do there is to dutifully nod his little head without even any thought. I doubt it was intended, but it's like an end-bracket on his whole loser arc -- "man, just look at you; you're 10 years older and in all that time you've learnt nothing. You can still only buy wholesale and swallow whatever bullshit you're fed by a charismatic asshole."

Again, i don't think it was intended this way. But the lack of intent didn't change the unfavorable impression it made.

 

[9ssmith9]

I don't buy the justification thing, but I do think there's one thing that got lost a bit in the new update, which is ambiguity in Nicki's character. In the original game, she went to Guy to ask him for help and Brent pushed her to play on his crush to get the money. That part is just text. The question you can ask yourself is whether Nicki intended to do that. Was she just going to ask Guy for money and that's it, or did she go in there intending to seduce him for it? Was she willing to exploit his crush anyway or would she only do it because she was desperate and in fear of her life? There wasn't text in the first chapter that provided a definitive answer to that question. People could think about it and come up with their own answer. It seems like in the new version that ambiguity is mostly gone. And that isn't wrong, especially since it seems from what Neon has said like it might have been unintentional in the first place. He can and should write the story in the way that seems best to him. But it makes sense that some people might be mourning that ambiguity if it was something they enjoyed.

When I think about Guy and money, the person I actually think about first is Notch, the Minecraft guy. He was a mostly regular person until he suddenly got super rich from selling Minecraft to Microsoft. And then, almost overnight, he turned into a colossal asshole that pretty much everyone hates. Did it really change him that much, inside? It seems more like he was always that way, but kept it in check so he could live with people and sell his game, but as soon as he didn't need to do that anymore the mask came off. Money gives you options that you didn't have before, and in this shitty world it makes you at least partly immune to the consequences of your actions. Dark Guy, either the full rapey version or the version that "only" blackmails and bribes people, feels like a real character because that's exactly what happens to some people when they get rich.

Worth noting, in the long form interview An Evening with an Extraordinary Gentleman, Alan Moore was asked why this event transpired as it did. His reply? “I don’t know, it just seemed like what he’d do at the time.”

I'm not a smart guy and I don't think I could come up with a good reason for him doing this, but I agree with Moore. It would have felt wrong for him to do it the other way. Sometimes you just have to feel your way through this stuff.

 

[Ragnar]

Err, did you perhaps intend to quote someone else's post? Because this has literally nothing to do with anything i wrote. I never even mentioned the dark path..? (at that point, that is) I was only talking about whether update did anything to change portrayal of Nicki.


Err, you said yourself that the game portrays Guy going from "kind of a loser to a pillar of community". Kind of a loser is still a loser.

Anyway, i've mentioned it before but when i say it, i don't mean the crypto scam specifically. That can happen to anyone. It's the decade which followed that we get a slice of -- apparently spent on little else than feeling worthless, never trying to do anything beyond clinging to a menial job, always keeping your head down, not developing any social contacts beyond ones you're forced to interact with at work, not achieving anything until a miraculous stroke of luck (which was all someone else's doing) delivered insane wealth in one's lap, not even self-reflecting on one's own actions ("i'm gonna ghost my only friend because i fear my new money could change the friendship between us". Yeah, like ghosting her for a month isn't already fundamentally changing the nature of your friendship, you dumbass) ... the list goes on and honestly, calling this package a loser isn't a stretch, but being still pretty kind on him. What you said:


Is a large part of it, and this is loser's attitude. "I fell over once when walking, so i'll spend the rest of my life never walking because, imagine it, i could fall over again".

Funnily, it's Guy's interaction with his newly hired lawyer that was sort of the last straw -- i mean, all things considered you'd kind of expect to have some options/reactions at that point. The "Light Side" Guy would maybe try to question at least a little all that nihilism he's being served; and the Dark Guy might appreciate the cynicism, but if he's supposed to be to be a misogynist incel creep, then perhaps with his new wealth he'd push back on getting so clearly patronized by his new female employee. But no. Regardless of his supposed nature, the only thing Guy can do there is to dutifully nod his little head without even any thought. I doubt it was intended, but it's like an end-bracket on his whole loser arc -- "man, just look at you; you're 10 years older and in all that time you've learnt nothing. You can still only buy wholesale and swallow whatever bullshit you're fed by a charismatic asshole."

Again, i don't think it was intended this way. But the lack of intent didn't change the unfavorable impression it made.

Yes, I said he's kind of a loser but you can fall way more than Guy's did. In any case my point was mere semantic.
He's been ten years stuck in menial jobs like many people are irl. I mean only a few ones turn into a self made millionaire.
He have learned many things in all those years, he talks about it in later episodes like during Ashe's date.

 

[ffive]

He have learned many things in all those years, he talks about it in later episodes like during Ashe's date.

Hmm i was under impression that the things he talks about during Ashe's date were his new experiences during the training montage between Chapters 1 and 2?

The things he learned over 10 years of menial jobs were more like how to refill a drink tank without spilling it all over himself, and other such practicalities of said menial jobs -- this comes up in his talk with Brittani if you visit her workplace.

Maybe i remember it wrong, though.

 

[Ragnar]

Hmm i was under impression that the things he talks about during Ashe's date were his new experiences during the training montage between Chapters 1 and 2?

The things he learned over 10 years of menial jobs were more like how to refill a drink tank without spilling it all over himself, and other such practicalities of said menial jobs -- this comes up in his talk with Brittani if you visit her workplace.

Maybe i remember it wrong, though.

That's in the air, we don't know about Guy past in detail.

 

[PHIL101-YYouPPHard]

It certainly can make for a good character arc, but that's not really where the story goes, at least in the current version. This is not to say he's somehow out of character in the intro, or that the scene should be removed or reworked or anything else along those lines, just that it creates an expectation that Guy will continue to be easily influenced in the main game and/or that his story arc will examine how and why he moves away from that mindset. Right now, in the actual game neither of those things really happen. I believe the first impression the player gets should something more important to the story and/or to understanding Guy's character, though I also don't think it's a huge deal either way. You could argue that the scene where Guy gambles away his money and loses is critically important to understanding his circumstances and the overall plot, but as it's written now I think it puts a bit more emphasis on what caused him to buy into Kobalt Koin rather than the consequences of his decision (that part comes afterward).

Like I said, I haven't played the new chp 1 yet, so my impression is probably off (I'm very confident I will like it, though.) But, basically, he gets duped by crypto scam -> loses all his money -> it crushes his soul for many years, informs his entire perspective on life and himself, aka he loses his mojo -> oh shit, turns out he's fucking lucky and got all his money back plus way, way, way more -> he regains his mojo again and now he feels like the sky is the limit, and it informs the rest of the game going forward.

All that happens between the new Chp 1 and Chp 2, right? So, I'm misunderstanding where the issue is. He's more competent now because 1) his past experience getting duped and all the years he's had to think about it, 2) he's older and wiser, 3) he has way more confidence in himself and his own judgment. Again, this kind of thing, usually in far less dramatic and life-ruining/life-making circumstances, happens to people all the time. And I think it's a very relatable character arc, just far more exciting and magical for Guy than most of the rest of us.

Indeed. That's the problem with the new Nicki. She's a stereotypical character, a flawless Mary Sue. She's one-dimensional and without edges. She presents no conflicts. And she's not interesting as a character. She's downright boring. Will her conflicts and edges be presented later? Maybe. But right now she's a very weak character.

Something, by the way, that already happened with Ashe in Chapter 2, and which was also criticized at the time.

What about Viola? Don't most people in this thread love Viola? And she's by far the most flawless, innocent character so far... nothing wrong really with that type of character, especially in a VN. In fact, people will bitch and moan left and right if a LI isn't a perfect angel, and apparently people will bitch and moan about the opposite, too. Ay ay ay, devs just can't win

Some girls really are kinda like that, though, and even if they aren't, it's a fun fantasy for guys. So, really, it's nice to have a good variety. Nicki still has plenty of flaws. And honestly, I'd argue Ashe's flaws are definitely there, too, they maybe are just obscured by her bubbly personality and the awesome erotic scenes she has. They're slowly getting revealed more and more as the game moves forward. I bet the same will happen for Viola, too.

I'm not a smart guy and I don't think I could come up with a good reason for him doing this, but I agree with Moore. It would have felt wrong for him to do it the other way. Sometimes you just have to feel your way through this stuff.

I think Neon is agreeing with Moore, not criticizing him. A lot of writing comes from the heart and the gut and is based on feelings, not the brain and logical reasoning. Obviously, you need a certain amount of the latter to make an engrossing, believable story and characters, and it also depends on what kind of story you're writing, but... I don't think most writers are panicking to make every tiny little thing fit into some perfectly logical overarching system, or a 1:1 with reality, or to even make sense fully; I think that's an endless task that would quickly drain all the fun away from the endeavor, especially if it makes the story/characters less cool or compelling in the end.

 

[Joshy92]

Just thought I'd put it out there if Pepper lets us suck on her big juicy titties and call her mommy, I won't complain.

 

[NeegNog]

Just thought I'd put it out there if Pepper lets us suck on her big juicy titties and call her mommy, I won't complain.

she doesnt have to let me

 

[Elduriel]

Just thought I'd put it out there if Pepper lets us suck on her big juicy titties and call her mommy, I won't complain.

oh man I can't wait, she really got some booba

 

[Jarulf]

I just realised:
I'm the bad Guy, duh
I'm the bad Guy.

I will neither confirm nor deny that I only logged on to get that out of my system. Sorry.

 

[ename144]

Thats a bit of a contraditon right there.

I am willing to concede the MC could in theory fritter it away frivolous toys... but come on New Scams?.
To fall for any scam requires a willingness by the MC to take risk's.
And in you own words the MC is now risk averse.
You can't have it both ways either he's risk averse or he's not.
Just Sayin.

There are scams that don't rely on pressuring the mark to do something risky. As a less than random example, we know for a fact the MC hired a lawyer; how exactly did he vet her?

If the MC's letting her handle his legal affairs, he's obviously taking some level of risk that she isn't going to con him. Seeing him struggle with that decision could have been a nice way to show the MC starting to grow his much needed backbone. Instead we just skip over the crucial moment and imply the MC is still incapable of decision making, he just somehow lucked into the right drill sergeant.

 

[LWtbo]

There are scams that don't rely on pressuring the mark to do something risky. As a less than random example, we know for a fact the MC hired a lawyer; how exactly did he vet her?

If the MC's letting her handle his legal affairs, he's obviously taking some level of risk that she isn't going to con him. Seeing him struggle with that decision could have been a nice way to show the MC starting to grow his much needed backbone. Instead we just skip over the crucial moment and imply the MC is still incapable of decision making, he just somehow lucked into the right drill sergeant.

Nice try but you just proved my point either he's risk averse or he's not.
If he's Risk averse it just means he will do what he can to minimizes any risk in anything he do's
Not that he avoids any risk at all... thats practically impossible best case he minimizes the Risk.
Like if he checks the Lawyer credentials and track record first.
There is usealy a regulatory body for things like Lawyers and such so checkings not that hard.
Scams no matter what type normally only work if the person being Scammed doesn't do any checks.
Infact most any type of Scams rely on the target not checking so if he gets Scammed it means he didn't check.
Which intern means he's not risk averse So again its either he is or he isn't not both.

 

[ename144]

Nice try but you just proved my point either he's risk averse or he's not.
If he's Risk averse it just means he will do what he can to minimizes any risk in anything he do's
Not that he avoids any risk at all... thats practically impossible best case he minimizes the Risk.
Like if he checks the Lawyer credentials and track record first.
There is usealy a regulatory body for things like Lawyers and such so checkings not that hard.
Scams no matter what type normally only work if the person being Scammed doesn't do any checks.
Infact most any type of Scams rely on the target not checking so if he gets Scammed it means he didn't check.
Which intern means he's not risk averse So again its either he is or he isn't not both.

Perhaps I'm not being clear. The new version of the MC blew his money on a crypto scam, and was so traumatized that he spent the next ten years taking absolutely no chances whatsoever. This means that in the intervening time he has had exactly zero opportunities to improve his basic judgement or his tolerance for risk. Yet the instant he makes a fortune selling his old KobaltKoins, he's not only willing to make rapid fire risky decisions (hiring a financial advisor, investing in real estate, hiring a lawyer), but based on the way the original game played out he's done a pretty shrewd job on all of them (though I suppose he did decide to ghost Nicki, so that does break up the streak a bit).

Given the way the game had gone to that point I'd find either of those outcomes unexpected on their own, but both together just seems out of character for the MC as he was (re)established. Remember, we didn't see a montage of the MC making some sound decisions prior to his drunken YOLO investment. We opened with him making one of the stupidest decisions possible, then watched him refuse to learn any useful lessons from as he writhed around for a decade.

The only thing this MC is demonstrably good at is fucking up. If he struck it rich, I'd expect him to either stuff the money under his mattress and be paralyzed by indecision, or decide he's bulletproof after all and go right back to making poorly thought out spending decisions. We know he didn't hoard the money, so that means he's back to being a high roller... and thus an industrial-strength scam magnet.

I know that's not what happens because I played the original version, but that MC had a lot more leeway to exercise good judgement either before or after the fateful incident. The remake spends more time fleshing out his actions but they're all terrible. Hence my assertion that if he came into money, I'd expect him to lose it rapidly.

 

[Pixillin']

Perhaps I'm not being clear. The new version of the MC blew his money on a crypto scam, and was so traumatized that he spent the next ten years taking absolutely no chances whatsoever. This means that in the intervening time he has had exactly zero opportunities to improve his basic judgement or his tolerance for risk. Yet the instant he makes a fortune selling his old KobaltKoins, he's not only willing to make rapid fire risky decisions (hiring a financial advisor, investing in real estate, hiring a lawyer), but based on the way the original game played out he's done a pretty shrewd job on all of them (though I suppose he did decide to ghost Nicki, so that does break up the streak a bit).

Given the way the game had gone to that point I'd find either of those outcomes unexpected on their own, but both together just seems out of character for the MC as he was (re)established. Remember, we didn't see a montage of the MC making some sound decisions prior to his drunken YOLO investment. We opened with him making one of the stupidest decisions possible, then watched him refuse to learn any useful lessons from as he writhed around for a decade.

The only thing this MC is demonstrably good at is fucking up. If he struck it rich, I'd expect him to either stuff the money under his mattress and be paralyzed by indecision, or decide he's bulletproof after all and go right back to making poorly thought out spending decisions. We know he didn't hoard the money, so that means he's back to being a high roller... and thus an industrial-strength scam magnet.

I know that's not what happens because I played the original version, but that MC had a lot more leeway to exercise good judgement either before or after the fateful incident. The remake spends more time fleshing out his actions but they're all terrible. Hence my assertion that if he came into money, I'd expect him to lose it rapidly.

There is a middle ground though between stuffing the money under his mattress and buying lottery tickets with it - it's what most people with money do - hire a money guy and a lawyer and make some safeish diversified investments. At any rate, I don't think we are going to have any influence on whether Guy finishes rich or poor (unless one or the other is a consequence of the moral path you take).

 

[Birdnman993]

Mason loves to be affectionately spit in his mouth..

One of the reasons I love him so much, you see that Gabby and Pepper, learn.

 

[Boopadooparoop]

Indeed. That's the problem with the new Nicki. She's a stereotypical character, a flawless Mary Sue. She's one-dimensional and without edges. She presents no conflicts. And she's not interesting as a character. She's downright boring. Will her conflicts and edges be presented later? Maybe. But right now she's a very weak character.

Something, by the way, that already happened with Ashe in Chapter 2, and which was also criticized at the time.

Manic Pixie Dream Girl is probably the term you're looking for. Nicki isn't flawless or a Mary Sue really. She categorically is stated to push other people's buttons. Even after this remake she makes loads of mistakes which remain in the story. The most Mary Sue behaviours are that she's important to the story, and that she ends up being good at the job position Guy hires her to fill. One-dimensional maybe, more so as a manic pixie dream girl, though there are scenes and interactions which suggest otherwise. There's more of a case to be made for Ashe being one-dimensional since she's usually portrayed as a ditz. The lawyer off the top of my head is probably the closest example of a Mary Sue in the story, though she'd probably need to start kickboxing people and crash her car into center stage of the story first.

Thats a bit of a contraditon right there.

I am willing to concede the MC could in theory fritter it away frivolous toys... but come on New Scams?.
To fall for any scam requires a willingness by the MC to take risk's.
And in you own words the MC is now risk averse.
You can't have it both ways either he's risk averse or he's not.
Just Sayin.

You didn't actually quote the contradictory statements, but they're definitely contradictory. He is risk averse and appears to invest the bulk of his money into a risk averse strategy. Since the story isn't him day trading, its probably just all tossed into the S&P or something, definitely not surprising for the established character. I agree his charity could be him frittering away his wealth. I'd add even toys seems unlikely since he comes off like he'd just move back into his old apartment lol.

The attempt was pretty unsuccessful in my eyes. I mean, I get why the MC was too scared to ask her out himself, that part makes sense. But why on earth would he ever encourage her to date Brent? The new Brent is a pretty insufferable asshat from the instant you meet him, so the MC's assertion that he "seems.. fun" seems extremely dubious.

There should be plenty of room for the MC to self-sabotage his chances with Nicki without inflicting that lunkhead on her, but the plot needs her to date Brent so the MC encourages it just because. Blech.

Turning Brent into Mason is the true dark path. I agree there are points you aren't given an option for the most reasonable course of action (especially in chapter one), but if everything worked out before the story even began there'd be no story.

 

[Pixillin']

Manic Pixie Dream Girl is probably the term you're looking for. Nicki isn't flawless or a Mary Sue really. She categorically is stated to push other people's buttons. Even after this remake she makes loads of mistakes which remain in the story. The most Mary Sue behaviours are that she's important to the story, and that she ends up being good at the job position Guy hires her to fill. One-dimensional maybe, more so as a manic pixie dream girl, though there are scenes and interactions which suggest otherwise. There's more of a case to be made for Ashe being one-dimensional since she's usually portrayed as a ditz. The lawyer off the top of my head is probably the closest example of a Mary Sue in the story, though she'd probably need to start kickboxing people and crash her car into center stage of the story first.

I don't think anyone qualifies as a manic pixie dream girl, or a Mary Sue at this point. I think Nicky might be perfect for MC, but definitely not flawless and she's certainly not the light hearted pixie, pushing guy toward new adventures - if anything she's a bit overprotective and jealous. There is still a lot of character development that needs to happen for all of them, but I don't see anyone filling those roles really. None of them really ooze confidence and ambition, nor do any of them seem like they want to take guy by the hand and lead him into a life of adventures and new experiences. At this point most of them are cautious about guy, absorbed in their own problems, and looking for safety and stability more than anything.

 

[Boopadooparoop]

I don't think anyone qualifies as a manic pixie dream girl, or a Mary Sue at this point. I think Nicky might be perfect for MC, but definitely not flawless and she's certainly not the light hearted pixie, pushing guy toward new adventures - if anything she's a bit overprotective and jealous. There is still a lot of character development that needs to happen for all of them, but I don't see anyone filling those roles really. None of them really ooze confidence and ambition, nor do any of them seem like they want to take guy by the hand and lead him into a life of adventures and new experiences. At this point most of them are cautious about guy, absorbed in their own problems, and looking for safety and stability more than anything.

She definitely has character qualities which meet the typical criteria, which is why I suggested it for his criticism. Mary Sue was inaccurate, she isn't beloved by everyone who meets her, seen as beautiful or flawless by other characters and she isn't instantly skilled at everything she does. I don't actually think anyone truly meets the Mary Sue criteria, but the lawyer probably really is the closest. The sister instantly falls in love with her and she gives Guy story relevant advice in the remake of chapter one. There could be a better example, but I don't believe any character is one so they'd need to suddenly develop uncharacteristic skills and then probably die heroically in the final act. Nicki is, at least in the remake, the catalyst which spurs Guy on to new adventures though, she's the inciting incident for his charity. I'm not meaning the term negatively, but it's definitely a tick in the manic pixie dream girl direction. I think there's depth as we've seen Nicki act differently with different people and different situations in a believable manner.

 

[Pixillin']

She definitely has character qualities which meet the typical criteria, which is why I suggested it for his criticism. Mary Sue was inaccurate, she isn't beloved by everyone who meets her, seen as beautiful or flawless by other characters and she isn't instantly skilled at everything she does. I don't actually think anyone truly meets the Mary Sue criteria, but the lawyer probably really is the closest. The sister instantly falls in love with her and she gives Guy story relevant advice in the remake of chapter one. There could be a better example, but I don't believe any character is one so they'd need to suddenly develop uncharacteristic skills and then probably die heroically in the final act. Nicki is, at least in the remake, the catalyst which spurs Guy on to new adventures though, she's the inciting incident for his charity. I'm not meaning the term negatively, but it's definitely a tick in the manic pixie dream girl direction. I think there's depth as we've seen Nicki act differently with different people and different situations in a believable manner.

But usually with the manic pixie dream girl it's not an accident. Usually she finds a guy who is underconfident, kind of a shy, loner and literally drags him into things - believing in him when no one else does - Guy breaks out of his shell after what happens with Nicky but she doesn't drag him into it, and while she does boost his confidence it's more like she notices the changes in him, rather than pushing him into the changes. I guess she might qualify in kind of an abstract way but she doesn't really fit the mold - and for her to even sort of qualify, you have to treat her really well.