VN Ren'Py Friends in Need [Mini-Sode: Blue Valentine] [NeonGhosts]

[Dogorti]

This thread looks like Twitter rn....

 

[yossa999]

Maybe all you moralistic advocates should all write to your local politicians then and petition to raise the legal adult age to 21 then. Or maybe 25, because you most likely believe in that bullshit theory too.

Hell, while you're infantilising legal adults (especially women), why not make everything 25 eh? Voting, drinking, credit, marriage, having kids, joining armed forces, driving....college...after all, they just aren't devloped enough and have the experience to be making serious decisions for themselves....

Are they?

I partially agree with both PHIL101-YYouPPHard and Skep-tiker.

I think it's not about the legal adult age, but about the age difference between the partners, and the difference in life experiences, power imbalance and a dozen other imbalances that this relationship will reveal. You can ignore it and say it doesn't affect the relationship, but it does. And an 18-year-old girl will most likely not be experienced and mature enough for a relationship with a man who is several decades older than her. There are always exceptions, but I think in general this is true.

Should I condemn such relationships or consider them doomed to failure? Of course not, if they are both consenting adults.
Would I want such a relationship for my kin - no, I wouldn’t.
Do I wish I had fucked my hot 35 y/o college female professor when I was 18? Is this even a question?

 

[Maviarab]

and the difference in life experiences, power imbalance and a dozen other imbalances that this relationship will reveal

All of which can and do apply to relatiosnhips with people the same age. Who is anyone to moralistically tell another legal adult what they can and should (or not) be doing? Who are they to say what is healthy or not yossa?

And an 18-year-old girl will most likely not be experienced and mature enough for a relationship with a man who is several decades older than her.

Then again, she sure as shit isn't mature enough to be making financial decisions about college, driving, voting or any number of other things that can and do have far more wide reaching consequences than who she decides to fuck. Agree?

All this started by a comment by Neon that I called out, because every...single...relationship in this VN is unhealthy by the very fact of what the MC is and has (and thre people he is interacting with). No one (especially not Neon) called any of those out as being 'unhealthy', just Gabby...purely because she is 18. That to me is wrong and is infantilising a legal, adult woman who can do wtf she wants and sure has hell needs no ones permission, and sorry, but that behaviour needs to stop because again, if these young mindlessly dumb children are not mature enough to decide who they want to screw...tell me yossa (and everyone else)...at what age will they be hmmm? Serious question...I'd love to know your answer.

Viola's relationship (as just one example) is FAR more unhealthy than Gabby's ever will be...as is Nickis for that matter....and Mason's....but oh no, poor 18 year old girl is unhealthy....

 

[PHIL101-YYouPPHard]

Maybe all you moralistic advocates should all write to your local politicians then and petition to raise the legal adult age to 21 then. Or maybe 25, because you most likely believe in that bullshit theory too (as awell as the ridiculous made up half your age plus seven rule...).

Hell, while you're infantilising legal adults (especially women), why not make everything 25 eh? Voting, drinking, credit, marriage, having kids, joining armed forces, driving....college...after all, they just aren't devloped enough and have the experience to be making serious decisions for themselves....

Are they?

Think you're still fighting past battles friend, I didn't say any of that. I think all I can add for you to consider is that lying is also legal, and most rational people agree it's an integral part of free speech. It's also sometimes perfectly normal & healthy and can even arguably be the right thing to do in some situations. But I still make moral & ethical judgments against it in general, because many times it just isn't a net good for at least one party involved. The law is simply not the right way nor the smart way to tackle stuff like this, and I haven't said otherwise.

I guess deep down I knew I was poking a hornet's nest, though. I thought I'd air drop my opinion and maintain chill discussion. My bad. I will just stop here before I make it worse

 

[MrD812]

All of which can and do apply to relatiosnhips with people the same age. Who is anyone to moralistically tell another legal adult what they can and should (or not) be doing? Who are they to say what is healthy or not yossa?


Then again, she sure as shit isn't mature enough to be making financial decisions about college, driving, voting or any number of other things that can and do have far more wide reaching consequences than who she decides to fuck. Agree?

All this started by a comment by Neon that I called out, because every...single...relationship in this VN is unhealthy by the very fact of what the MC is and has (and thre people he is interacting with). No one (especially not Neon) called any of those out as being 'unhealthy', just Gabby...purely because she is 18. That to me is wrong and is infantilising a legal, adult woman who can do wtf she wants and sure has hell needs no ones permission, and sorry, but that behaviour needs to stop because again, if these young mindlessly dumb children are not mature enough to decide who they want to screw...tell me yossa (and everyone else)...at what age will they be hmmm? Serious question...I'd love to know your answer.

Viola's relationship (as just one example) is FAR more unhealthy than Gabby's ever will be...as is Nickis for that matter....and Mason's....but oh no, poor 18 year old girl is unhealthy....

ALL Of You have valid points addressing this title's relations-flaws, moral and individual standpoints personally and legally.
To me, the Dev's succeeded on several levels creating characters making poor choices (not sticking up for them, the title or anyone).
As far as age and experience goes per individuals, to many are unique and some to great degree's drastically.

Have known Young people wise and intelligent WAAAY beyond their years and fully grown adults, we can not trust with a hammer.
Countless recorded documentation out there for those unfamiliar or anyone curious to these facts.
Regardless of traditions/laws/cultures/locations, like to think we all want every one to fare well in any relationship choices.

None of us fully know how things will workout with every situation.
Myself, can just do what i can to respect, appreciate and look beyond appearances.
Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

 

[Skep-tiker]

Not an expert in this matter, but older men being drawn to younger women and vice versa seems to be even advantageous from evolutionary biology, because for the men, younger women are appearing more fertile, while older men can presumably more security (mostly financial nowadays) then boys of their age.

And again, as long as the government assumes 18 years olds to be either mature enough to be sent to War or to be sentenced up to prison for life (or worse), any argument regarding not to be capable to choose sexual partners own their own is futile.

I want my childten to do what they think is right and makes THEM happy, nor what makes me happy....

 

[Maviarab]

ALL Of You have valid points addressing this title's relations-flaws, moral and individual standpoints personally and legally.
To me, the Dev's succeeded on several levels creating characters making poor choices (not sticking up for them, the title or anyone).
As far as age and experience goes per individuals, to many are unique and some to great degree's drastically.

Have known Young people wise and intelligent WAAAY beyond their years and fully grown adults, we can not trust with hammer.
Countless recorded documentation out there for those unfamiliar or anyone curious to these facts.
Regardless of traditions/laws/cultures/locations, like to think we all want every one to fare well in any relationship choices.

None of us fully know how things will workout with every situation.
Myself, can just do what i can to respect, appreciate and look beyond appearances.
Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

Not an expert in this matter, but older men being drawn to younger women and vice versa seems to be even advantageous from evolutionary biology, because for the men, younger women are appearing more fertile, while older men can presumably more security (mostly financial nowadays) then boys of their age.

And again, as long as the government assumes 18 years olds to be either mature enough to be sent to War or to be sentenced up to prison for life (or worse), any argument regarding not to be capable to choose sexual partners own their own is futile.

I want my childten to do what they think is right and makes THEM happy, nor what makes me happy....

Excellent points, especially your last sentence Skep.






___________
Ultimately, back to my original post, there are far too many people (usually men) who like to infantilise and treat legal adult women as children. They don't do it to 18 year old men....

They wouldn't have a problem if their 18 year old son wanted to fuck a 30 year old women...but their 18 year old daughter,...ohh no..she reated like a child, too immature and it's unhealthy. That's what I was calling out, because its hypocritical shit, arcaic and needs to stopped. Funny, I bet half of the moralistic brigade would tell you to your face they respect women, women's rights and their independance blah blah blah.....

So much for that equality we keep hearing about eh?

 

[yossa999]

All of which can and do apply to relatiosnhips with people the same age. Who is anyone to moralistically tell another legal adult what they can and should (or not) be doing? Who are they to say what is healthy or not yossa?

I can't convince my little brother that quitting college and becoming a clerk in a store is a bad idea. Moreover, who am I to decide for him how he should live his life. It’s just that I, having more experience, see the consequences that he will have to face in a few years after this decision, but not only does he not see them, but he doesn’t even want to think about them. But he will still have to think, only in a situation when it will be very difficult to change or rollback the stupid decisions.

I agree with you that I can't tell other adults what they should do, but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion about their decision and speak it out loud. Everyone is entitled to say what is healthy or not, but not me? And no, I'm not going to endorse or support the decisions of people I care about if I think they're wrong. The last word is of course theirs, it’s their life. But responsibility for the consequences of their decisions also lies with them.

Then again, she sure as shit isn't mature enough to be making financial decisions about college, driving, voting or any number of other things that can and do have far more wide reaching consequences than who she decides to fuck. Agree?

The problem is that she's mature enough to spend money and get laid, but not mature enough to handle her loan payments and deal with the consequences of being taken advantage of by an old pervert.

All your theoretical discussions about morality, free will and adult choice will end the moment your daughter appears on the doorstep and says: "Dad, this is my boyfriend, his name is Jesse Pinkman, we are going to live together."
Or will you say "It's not my problem?"

All this started by a comment by Neon that I called out, because every...single...relationship in this VN is unhealthy by the very fact of what the MC is and has (and thre people he is interacting with). No one (especially not Neon) called any of those out as being 'unhealthy', just Gabby...purely because she is 18. That to me is wrong and is infantilising a legal, adult woman who can do wtf she wants and sure has hell needs no ones permission, and sorry, but that behaviour needs to stop because again, if these young mindlessly dumb children are not mature enough to decide who they want to screw...tell me yossa (and everyone else)...what ahe will they be hmmm? Serious question...I'd love to know your answer.

Well, maybe I'm wrong, but isn't that the point of the game: how the MC deals with "unhealthy" situations, whether he'll fix them or use them to his advantage.
If Nicki had thought with her head, she would have ditched the little rat, married Guy and they would have lived happily ever after. But I think then the game would have ended in the first chapter.

If you're asking my opinion, well, they all are mature enough to decide who they want to screw, but not all of them are mature enough to handle the consequences on their own. So it's on them if they become Bad Guy's fucktoys or Lucien's "starlets."
Mommies always tell their Little Red Riding Hoods about the wolf, but who listens.

Anyway, I don't see what any of this has to do with the take that a relationship between a younger woman and a much older man tends to create an imbalance of power and a more vulnerable position for the woman.

Viola's relationship (as just one example) is FAR more unhealthy than Gabby's ever will be...

Just don't rape her and you'll be surprised what a sweet little thing she is

 

[ename144]

I diagree, ......

Of course you do.

Well, you do tend to spout a lot of nonsense. Case in point...

All of which can and do apply to relatiosnhips with people the same age. Who is anyone to moralistically tell another legal adult what they can and should (or not) be doing? Who are they to say what is healthy or not yossa?


Then again, she sure as shit isn't mature enough to be making financial decisions about college, driving, voting or any number of other things that can and do have far more wide reaching consequences than who she decides to fuck. Agree?

All this started by a comment by Neon that I called out, because every...single...relationship in this VN is unhealthy by the very fact of what the MC is and has (and thre people he is interacting with). No one (especially not Neon) called any of those out as being 'unhealthy', just Gabby...purely because she is 18. That to me is wrong and is infantilising a legal, adult woman who can do wtf she wants and sure has hell needs no ones permission, and sorry, but that behaviour needs to stop because again, if these young mindlessly dumb children are not mature enough to decide who they want to screw...tell me yossa (and everyone else)...at what age will they be hmmm? Serious question...I'd love to know your answer.

Viola's relationship (as just one example) is FAR more unhealthy than Gabby's ever will be...as is Nickis for that matter....and Mason's....but oh no, poor 18 year old girl is unhealthy....

Your argument seems to be that just because the platonic ideal of a balanced relationship is impossible in the real world it is therefore impossible to judge some relationships as being further from that ideal than others. Unsurprisingly, you're getting a lot of pushback against this because it's just wrong.

The problem with Gabby isn't her age in a vacuum, it's the complete package: she's much younger than the MC, she's immature even for her age, and she's emotionally vulnerable at the moment. Oh, and the MC has to press a little harder than usual to start anything with her. That's quite a list of potential issues that have nothing to do with your spurious arguments about raising the age of consent.

Now if you want to enjoy Gabby's content without worrying about any of the red flags, go for it: this is a game and it's supposed to be fun. But that doesn't give you any justification to get condescending to people who DO find those issues off-putting.

 

[Ragnar]

Haha, true! Can't tell if you're disagreeing with us, but your example is a dynamic born of circumstance. Anyone can be vulnerable from circumstance. But, I think the point we're trying to make in general is that an 18 year-old (or younger..) specifically is just undeveloped in multiple dimensions; brain, life experience, independence, etc. I mean, I won't judge people for their attractions or their thoughts, it's really only natural, but.. there's definitely a creep factor when someone much older pursues them. Even if every situation is unique and I can entertain that some age-gap relationships might be healthy, too many of them just aren't straight out of the gate. I definitely wouldn't want my 18 year-old daughter dating someone much older. Or son for that matter. My bad if you already agree with this.

Yeah, but at the same time there are 18 yo smarter than 30 yo. Age is a big factor on how we perceive others but experience doesn't always go hand in hand with age.
That being said Gabby is not one of those, she's a naive girl and that's part of her appeal for some players. I prefer Viola or Brittany because while they're 18 too both of them have more life experience than Gabby. Pepper isn't the 18 yo dumb girl either but she's too aggro for me

 

[Maviarab]

All your theoretical discussions about morality, free will and adult choice will end the moment your daughter appears on the doorstep and says: "Dad, this is my boyfriend, his name is Jesse Pinkman, we are going to live together."
Or will you say "It's not my problem?"

The onky two things you should care about as a parent are: Are they safe, are they happy? Everything else is flavour. and sorry, what you want should be very secondary to what they want and they should be supported 100% in what they want to do. How do you know they might make a mistake by not doing something particular (say going to college as an example. I never went, sure as hell wasn't a mistake for me).

Just don't rape her and you'll be surprised what a sweet little thing she is

Still doesn't change the fact it's a more unhealthy relationship than Gabby's is. What has being sweet got to do with anything?

Well, you do tend to spout a lot of nonsense.

You'd know en...case in point:

Now if you want to enjoy Gabby's content without worrying about any of the red flags, go for it: this is a game and it's supposed to be fun. But that doesn't give you any justification to get condescending to people who DO find those issues off-putting.

No one here actually finds it off-putting, or if they do, they have not said so. Tell me you didn't actually read my post without telling me you didn't actually read my post...or even understand the damn conversation for that matter. I don't even really care about her as a character in this VN for the record.

 

[PHIL101-YYouPPHard]

Yeah, but at the same time there are 18 yo smarter than 30 yo. Age is a big factor on how we perceive others but experience doesn't always go hand in hand with age.
That being said Gabby is not one of those, she's a naive girl and that's part of her appeal for some players. I prefer Viola or Brittany because while they're 18 too both of them have more life experience than Gabby. Pepper isn't the 18 yo dumb girl either but she's too aggro for me

I thought she'd be really aggro too, but honestly she's been really sweet so far. Her tough exterior is her survival mechanism more than her base-line personality is how I'd personally evaluate her. If that makes her more appealing to try again.

And hey, who am I really? Gabby is one of my top favorite LIs. Some out there go a step further and argue I'm a disgusting pos for even having the fantasy. So, when I make my own counter-arguments, I'm fully aware of some of my own conspicuous stances. Like, I couldn't just willy-nilly share this kind of thing with just anyone because it's a bad look. I'm not really a hyper-moralist like some assume (not you, but others), I'm just concerned about the worst-case or even the far-too-average situations that can arise. But I've still made the opposite argument, because I'm sure there are certainly some healthy, sweet relationships out there with age-gaps. And good for them, it'll at worst be a useful experience if it doesn't work out. I think it's important to strive for a thoughtful balance.

 

[BlenderGuy]

There's a million Nikkis in the World, making shit choices in life.
I don't see why the m.c should feel responsible.
Especially after she chose a shitty boyfriend, stuck with him as he went down hill.

I hate having to be nice to her as the latina on the desk is a million times better as a human being.

Decided to play the game without going full Ted Bundy this time.
Which was damn hard, I must admit.
It's still fun but I don't want to be some White Knight asshole, showing people money makes you happy.

I need more rimming options for Gabby, that's for sure.

 

[Dessolos]

There's a million Nikkis in the World, making shit choices in life.
I don't see why the m.c should feel responsible.
Especially after she chose a shitty boyfriend, stuck with him as he went down hill.

I hate having to be nice to her as the latina on the desk is a million times better as a human being.

Decided to play the game without going full Ted Bundy this time.
Which was damn hard, I must admit.
It's still fun but I don't want to be some White Knight asshole, showing people money makes you happy.

I need more rimming options for Gabby, that's for sure.

This is why Nicki is such a great character she has a split fan base because everyone differs so much on their own values or personal experiences. To you she is not that good of a person cause of her mistakes. To me I see them as her past mistakes from being in a toxic relationship. Since it feels like im more understanding where she is coming from and why she did what she did. Especially since the way she acted when she came back painted a clear picture of someone that is full of regret and doesn't think they deserve anything. I see her being just as good of a person as the latina lady you are talking about ( tho the latina probably still nicer)

Tho yeah I do get where you are coming from the MC kind of does feel bad for her right away and solves everything without a choice. Cause lets be real most people unless they are super understanding and trusting like me wouldn't help beyond letting her stay for a few nights until she proves herself no matter how much they feel bad for her. Unless she was a really really good friend in the past and they could get over her mistake but right now it doesn't really show how good of friends they really were.

 

[Dogorti]

This is why Nicki is such a great character she has a split fan base because everyone differs so much on their own values or personal experiences. To you she is not that good of a person cause of her mistakes. To me I see them as her past mistakes from being in a toxic relationship. Since it feels like im more understanding where she is coming from and why she did what she did. Especially since the way she acted when she came back painted a clear picture of someone that is full of regret and doesn't think they deserve anything. I see her being just as good of a person as the latina lady you are talking about ( tho the latina probably still nicer)

I really agree with you, for me she is not a bad person, just a person who made bad decisions, as someone who has made bad decisions I can relate. and I really find her adorable especially when she takes care of Carolina's daughter.

 

[NeonGhosts]

This conversation sure did take a turn!

Full disclosure: A lot of Gabby and Guy's relationship is based on my own experience dating a 20 year-old college girl, when I was 32. She needed a mature guy to take care of her a bit, and I needed the confidence boost of dating a younger woman, after a bad break-up. But, the relationship had a lot of problems, and 90% of them were just down to the reality that we were both in different places in our lives. That's not a bad thing, but it is a thing, and it cut both ways.

I brought her to a wedding reception for a good friend of mine, and she left near-tears because she felt so out of place around a bunch of adult professionals. She just felt like she didn't have anything to talk about. On the flip-side of that, she avoided so much as bringing me around her college friends, because she worried about being judged for dating an 'old guy.'

Then there's just the reality of dating someone who doesn't have your financial means. Want to go on a trip, or even just out to dinner/a show? Well, if you're in the older/more established position, you're paying. Or you can do something that your younger partner can afford to split with you -- which usually means something in the range of $50. Maybe sometimes they'll even treat you to a pizza.

Oh, but forget taking your younger partner to anywhere alcohol is being served. There's a comedian in town, or a cool band doing a house show? Well, your partner's not 21, so they can't go. Are you going to be a jerk and go by yourself? That'll go over well.

These are just surface-level problems, mind you. There's always more, if you dig a bit. But all this stuff, in my experience, creates an imbalance in the relationship. You're simply not on the same playing field of life. That doesn't mean someone's being abused, or taken advantage of. It just means that you have more problems to tackle, than someone in a more conventional relationship. If you don't deal with those problems, then over time they'll lead to resentment, and little problems become big problems, which lead to the end of the relationship.

My relationship ended when she went to a college party (which I couldn't attend because -- old), got drunk, and made out with a guy. That then lead to the discussion about how, "I didn't think we were exclusive, just seeing each other, and.." so on and so forth. And here's the thing -- I wasn't really mad about it. Because I'd been 20, and drunk, and horny before. But, I realized that she needed to go out and being young and crazy for a while, and I needed to find a healthier coping mechanism for my depression, than fucking girls that were still in college.

I'm writing Gabby and Guy's relationship to have a possible happy ending. So, obviously I believe that an age gap relationship can work. But, it comes with its own problems that are entirely divorced from the problems that many of the other love interests have.

Pepper works, and supports herself. Viola works, and supports herself and her mother. Mason's had a lot of experience with the harsh realities of life. All of them have had to grow up fast, and Gabby really hasn't. She still lives at home. Her only job is in the place that her family owns. She has problems, but in a lot of ways she hasn't really had to take care of herself, and figure out who she is. That's part of her journey, and part of what I think makes her character, and her romance with the player, interesting.

 

[Joshy92]

I'm not a big Gabby fan tbh. I mean she probably wouldn't even slap me around and make me do things for her.

 

[MiltonPowers]

I'm not a big Gabby fan tbh. I mean she probably wouldn't even slap me around and make me do things for her.

It's always good to have standards and a line that you just won't cross.

 

[Dessolos]

haha my line would be a weird one to most people I think. I just don't have it in me to be dominant / Alpha , so outside of a video game setting I couldn't do it no matter how hot the girl is. id be second guessing my self to much if x is okay or to far to the point it would be very awkward.

 

[Joshy92]

All that stuff like alcohol or going to a show wouldn't bother me because I hate beer and don't really like going out in public so Mason won't need to worry about all that.