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Dessolos

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She falls several times for Brent's bullshit. Then, after Guy saved her sorry ass, she ran away to fall into some rich guy heavy body modification kink. She isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.
It gets even worse after the remake, because now she doesn't even try to ask her best friend, Guy, for help. Before the remake at least she tried somehow on behalf of Brent's crypto story.
I don't remember her ever asking Guy for help before the remake tho. She was doing everything she can to not ask him for help to not take advantage of him again. It was guy that gave her help without asking. ( the job and place to stay) Unless you are talking about Ch 1 of the old version tho I wouldn't even call that asking Guy for help since it was Brent's idea and he is the once that kind of forced her too.

The remake destroyed her character. I had a LI pt with her and its a mess now
I haven't played past the remade intro yet as I want to wait for Ch 11. So unless something else drastically changed I thought her introduction made her a much better character overall. For me she only went up more.
 
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TD1900

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The remake destroyed her character. I had a LI pt with her and its a mess now
Why do you say that? I think her reaching out for friendly, familiar comfort after Brent tries to pimp her out supports her romance path better than her begrudgingly hitting up Guy for money. It does round off some dimension to their post time skip relationship, but what gets shaved off is just an example of her spinelessness - which there is plenty of to go around. Now, I would agree all the extra nuance in their relationship makes jumping on Nicki's darker path from the word go less credible, but in return pivoting to Guy being a piece of shit after she disappears has a certain narrative heft that feels just right with how worried he was about money changing things.

Plus, her turning up cause Guy had been ghosting her for two weeks bookends nicely with her doing the same to him tenfold after Brent wastes the 10k.

I'll admit though, it's been a long time since I played the original opening while the new one is fresh in my mind.
 

Ragnar

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what gets shaved off is just an example of her spinelessness - which there is plenty of to go around.
I don't remember her ever asking Guy for help before the remake tho. She was doing everything she can to not ask him for help to not take advantage of him again. It was guy that gave her help without asking. ( the job and place to stay) Unless you are talking about Ch 1 of the old version tho I wouldn't even call that asking Guy for help since it was Brent's idea and he is the once that kind of forced her too.


I haven't played past the remade intro yet as I want to wait for Ch 11. So unless something else drastically changed I thought her introduction made her a much better character overall. For me she only went up more.
Before the remake she asks Guy for money bc Brent sends her, with the excuse that it was Brent who warned Guy bout cobalt coins skyrocketing.
Now, a smart person in a dire situation would ask for help. Not asking for it due to some distorted sense of pride or whatever is dumb.
 

Joshy92

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People confuse stupidity with personality. None of the LIs are stupid. They're all, in one form or another, vulnerable, that's what makes the corruption/dark routes work so well. If they were all founts of independence and self-confidence and knew what they wanted and what was good for them, we wouldn't really have a game here.

Characters like Nicki, Mason, Risa, and Brit were all abused or neglected in their youth. Abuse and neglect at a young age develops personality issues. People with personality issues don't assert themselves in healthy ways. That's why a lot of them hover around people that abuse or devalue them. It's a coping mechanism that was ingrained in them in their formative years. When someone treats them like shit, their instinct is to blame themselves instead of the abuser, because that's what they did as children; that's what children do, they internalize their environment.

Even a character like Ashe, though, who seems to have grown up in a healthy family, had an early tramautic event in her life that affected her self-perception; the car accident with Wren. So, aside from the typical things that would control her reaction to findom/dark Guy, I think there could also be some guilt and self-blame there.

At least, that's how I interpret all of it. Neon can have a different idea of why his characters behave the way they do, and there's probably more complexity involved, I'm simplifying it a little.

I think you can also view some of the men in the game through that lens, too. Men tend to react with more anti-social behavior and violence when they're subjected to early neglect/abuse. Plus, the LIs have to be written to be likable or the game doesn't work as well, whereas the guys have more room to be assholes. Characters like Isabella and Tessa are the hateful bitches of the game, maybe representing the much more toxic personality that can develop from neglect/abuse/trauma, but that's also why they're not main LIs.
Hateful bitch? You are insulting my precious flower Isabella man.

She's just a bit spicy is all certainly not hateful.
 
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Have you tried reading even one post on the thread? Or maybe a page? Or maybe go check Neon's Subscribestar or Patreon pages?
I don't understand why so many people responded as if I insulted their mothers, there are 1072 pages of threats and most people talk about theories or their favorite character, maybe because of my bad english I asked in an agresive way or something like that
 
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Joshy92

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I don't understand why so many people responded as if I insulted their mothers, there are 1072 pages of threats and most people talk about theories or their favorite character, maybe because of my bad english I asked in an agresive way or something like that
I wouldn't worry about it, It's just that that question gets asked in threads so much that it can sometimes get on peoples nerves. Someone usually posts any major info that NeonGhosts puts up about the game.

But to answer the question, yeah the game is still being made, the developer is working really hard to finish the next update right now.
 
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Laigron

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How it is with Taboo patch? The files to download have 0b size which impy its empty. So does it work on premise that if there is file named that then it shows ful ocntent or did o miss something?
 

Jplays512

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Jul 27, 2024
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I don't understand why so many people responded as if I insulted their mothers, there are 1072 pages of threats and most people talk about theories or their favorite character, maybe because of my bad english I asked in an agresive way or something like that
I mean you asked if a game that was updated 2 months ago if it was abandoned... A game that even the last "new update" was less than a year ago and the remakes have been coming pretty quick in remake terms with a dev who regularly comments on this thread and has free dev updates (weekly I believe) on his patreon that regularly get posted here as well. It was wild to ask if the game was abandoned when the Dev is really active. People like to yell at devs for "milking" when it comes to remake but Neon has blasted through the remake and adding a bunch of stuff to it to flesh out the early story and some characters better while also updating his code to make it easier for his future progress.
 

Jplays512

Newbie
Jul 27, 2024
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How it is with Taboo patch? The files to download have 0b size which impy its empty. So does it work on premise that if there is file named that then it shows ful ocntent or did o miss something?
Pretty much it just adds a variable that the game looks for. If the variable is there it shows the taboo parts of the game. It isn't really adding any coding, renders, stories, etc. because it is already in the game.
 

ename144

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Why do you say that? I think her reaching out for friendly, familiar comfort after Brent tries to pimp her out supports her romance path better than her begrudgingly hitting up Guy for money. It does round off some dimension to their post time skip relationship, but what gets shaved off is just an example of her spinelessness - which there is plenty of to go around. Now, I would agree all the extra nuance in their relationship makes jumping on Nicki's darker path from the word go less credible, but in return pivoting to Guy being a piece of shit after she disappears has a certain narrative heft that feels just right with how worried he was about money changing things.

Plus, her turning up cause Guy had been ghosting her for two weeks bookends nicely with her doing the same to him tenfold after Brent wastes the 10k.

I'll admit though, it's been a long time since I played the original opening while the new one is fresh in my mind.
The remake is a mixed bag, but IMHO it winds up a net negative for Nicki (though I wouldn't go so far as to say it ruined her character). On the plus side, the friendship path flows much more smoothly. Not only do we avoid the MC putting the moves on a desperate and distraught woman, we also get a much better sense of the baseline relationship between the two characters that will grow into the friendship and/or romance of the later chapters.

On the down side, however, we lose any ambiguity about Nicki's motives and more importantly we also strain her relationship with BrettBrent well past the breaking point. The former is a debatable problem, but IMHO it made Nicki more flawed and interesting when we couldn't be sure exactly how much of her initial behavior was solely due to circumstance. It also gave roleplayers more to work with if they decided to take the MC's relationship with her in a very dark direction (assuming they could stomach the darker paths in this game, of course). The new version of Nicki has sanded off the roughest edges, which is a shame for a game that spends most of it's time exploring grey areas.

The latter issue of undermining her relationship with Brent, however, I see as the bigger stumbling block. In the original version it was clear Nicki and Brent's relationship was toxic, but it was a very believable one (at least to me). Nicki clearly liked the guy enough to excuse his many lesser failings, and that meant she was too slow to cut ties as his major failings started to pile up. It made sense that she would swallow her pride and approach the MC for money in their hour of need, then fail to realize that her needs and Brent's had to be separated afterwards until it was far too late.

In the new version, though, none of that works. It's not clear what - if anything - Nicki sees in Brent; he's practically a rebound fling after the MC fails to take his shot. That makes it a lot less believable that she'd be willing to tolerate his minor fuck ups for so long, and utterly implausible that she would so much as talk to him again once the MC saves her from Brent's major fuckups. I don't think Nicki would see Brent and herself as a unit in this version of events when she clearly sees the MC as her primary partner (even if he's a platonic one). This in turn makes it all but impossible to see how Brent managed to get his hands on the money the MC gave her when a) he didn't know it was coming and b) seemed to have much less direct access to her finances. Yet that's still the inciting incident for the main plot of the game. :(

In addition to all those problems, I have to say I disagree about the bookends of Nicki and the MC ghosting each other; it makes for pretty symmetry, sure, but neither incident makes any sense to me. As mentioned above, it's hard to see how the new Nicki would trust Brent enough to 'let' him steal the money, which means she really should have gone to the MC and the cops straight away rather than running off to solve the problem on her own. This wasn't a problem in the original version where she flat out asked the MC for money on Brent's behalf; ghosting the MC after that made perfect sense. But it's a big problem for the new version where Nicki didn't really do anything wrong.

Meanwhile the MC ghosting Nicki runs into the problem that I simply don't believe Nicki would ever accept being ghosted. Not only is she far too close a friend to go that long without visiting the MC in person, but the game specifically has her call the MC out on his quasi-suicidal mindset after the robbery. The idea that she would be content with sending unread text messages after that scare is absurd; she'd have kicked in the MC's door with her own two feet if that's what it took to make sure her message got through. Instead, it's only when Brent tries to pimp her out that Nicki finally confronts the MC, which IMHO is a complete misread of her new characterization (though it would have been inline with her original characterization, oddly enough).

That's how I see it, anyway. Other certainly disagreed when we debated it after the remake first came out, so perhaps you see it differently.
 
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ffive

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What you say is all right and can explain many situations in the game. On the other hand, Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. Nicki and Brent relationship shows Nicki being naive to the point of acting like an idiot. It happens in real life all the time, the usual conclusion is that you were a fool.
I mean, the same applies to rl too, when often people get called fools because they, as you quote, don't learn from one mistake, when in reality they're repeating the patterns they're conditioned to do, and which take much more mental and conscious effort to break from --or even fully realize-- than simple "fool me once". Ironically, it's often these who simplify matters like that who in the end come across as rather dense, or at the very least lacking empathy to understand the true nature of the situation they comment on.

(i mean this as general observation, not aiming it at you specifically. It can probably come across more biting than i intend it to)
 

TD1900

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In addition to all those problems, I have to say I disagree about the bookends of Nicki and the MC ghosting each other; it makes for pretty symmetry, sure, but neither incident makes any sense to me. As mentioned above, it's hard to see how the new Nicki would trust Brett enough to 'let' him steal the money, which means she really should have gone to the MC and the cops straight away rather than running off to solve the problem on her own. This wasn't a problem in the original version where she flat out asked the MC for money on Brett's behalf; ghosting the MC after that made perfect sense. But it's a big problem for the new version where Nicki didn't really do anything wrong.

Meanwhile the MC ghosting Nicki runs into the problem that I simply don't believe Nicki would ever accept being ghosted. Not only is she far too close a friend to go that long without visiting the MC in person, but the game specifically has her call the MC out on his quasi-suicidal mindset after the robbery. The idea that she would be content with sending unread text messages after that scare is absurd; she'd have kicked in the MC's door with her own two feet if that's what it took to make sure her message got through. Instead, it's only when Brett tries to pimp her out that Nicki finally confronts the MC, which IMHO is a complete misread of her new characterization (though it would have been inline with her original characterization, oddly enough).

That's how I see it, anyway. Other certainly disagreed when we debated it after the remake first came out, so perhaps you see it differently.

I do partly agree with you that it simplifies things in a more storybook direction. It's kinda what I was hand waving with "rounding off some dimension post time-skip." Personally, I see that as an acceptable trade for the quality of rapport we get between the pair and the melodrama that unambiguiety supports, but you're right about Brent; it does lessen the credibility there. I don't think it's too far fetched though, you can assume without it being explicitly shown on screen that Nicki is caught between seeing something in the dude and the foibles that basically has her letting men (Guy, Brent, Vaughn) serially walk all over her -- and I don't think that is necessarily at odds with her having feelings for Guy either. Neither in the short term where you could argue her feelings were amplified from the shock that propelled her to Guy's door or even if it's just the long unrequited variety finally being said.

Speaking of ambiguity, there's some to be had there. Sure she's not there for money, but she's still after something: creature comforts, a shoulder to cry on, emotional support. People have the tendency to fill in the gaps and romanticize when they're lonely or it's convenient. And when she comes back? No one else to turn to. It is perhaps cynical to paint emotions as a currency, but it is a need people seek to fill.

I do agree about her not knocking down Guy's door, that does seem odd. Maybe you could contend she has her own problems to deal with, not sure about the time frame with the Brent thing, but that would just be more looking for an excuse. Although, doesn't she say she tried coming to his house? I might be mistaken there.

I will however argue that her ghosting him does make sense, even with the contrivance of Brent immediately yoinking it out of her account before she can do anything about it. Her best friend just gave her a lot of money and it's gone in a puff of smoke. It's entirely reasonable to think she feels a culpability there. Sure she didn't ask for it, but she accepted it and it got squandered thanks to her bad taste in men and willingness to cover his ass. I can see that making a girl like Nicki want to bury her head in the sand.

Like you said, it's a mixed bag. The added complication of her asking for the money probably supports the game's overall themes best, but I don't know. There's a thread of sentimentality running through the game where I think taking that off the table is also right at home. It fills a certain need in an avn where most other relationships have an exploitative edge no matter how nice Guy plays it.
 
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ffive

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Like you said, it's a mixed bag. The added complication of her asking for the money probably supports the game's overall themes best, but I don't know. There's a thread of sentimentality running through the game where I think taking that off the table is also right at home. It fills a certain need in an avn where most other relationships have an exploitative edge no matter how nice Guy plays it.
I think the slightly problematic part of that is, by taking this aspect from what's the very first relationship/situation player encounters as Guy the game effectively stacks the deck against all the others which follow -- if the other relationships have exploitative edge but this one doesn't, it risks placing it on a pedestal that no alternatives can really measure up to.

There's also the matter that if this is largely a theme throughout the game, then having it open with such dilemma was highly effective way to telegraph said theme. Even if apparently quite unintentional. It's a very distilled "show, don't tell" instead of just the lukewarm "tell" we get from a "cynical lawyer" character pulled out of a hat in a passive part of a flashback.
 

Maviarab

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It is perhaps cynical to paint emotions as a currency, but it is a need people seek to fill.
Not at all. All relationships are transactional...every single one, whether people realise it or not. Each person wants something and they are both offering something....what those actually are, are mostly irelevant. Love, intimicy, kids, stability, social status, money (in Nik's case lol), someone to listen to them...

All amounts to the same thing ultimately.
 
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TD1900

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I think the slightly problematic part of that is, by taking this aspect from what's the very first relationship/situation player encounters as Guy stacks the deck against all the others which follow -- if the other relationships have exploitative edge but this one doesn't, it risks placing it on a pedestal that no alternatives can really measure up to.
That is a good point, but I think it only matters so far as you get to her return after disappearing. Because after that, she's homeless. She shows up at your door a friend in need and the choice to accept her back unconditionally or take advantage of her is realigned with the rest of the cast. And sure, the reader starts from the position that she loves you, but her selfishly ditching him after they (potentially) had a real moment of connection confounds that. And it's further muddied since it comes after you potentially set up relationships with Jun, Ashe, and Gabi.

Honestly, though. You're right about the pedestal thing. Sometimes it feels like the choice is "Nicki" or "be a nice/mean sex pest" (I'd exclude Ashe from this dichotomy, she's enough steps removed from Guy's philanthropy IMO), although I do think you can blend the two. That's one thing I love about this game, the granularity. My main PT has Guy and Nicki connecting in his old apartment, turning into an asshole post time skip, and fucking Nicki in the bathroom out of frustration when she comes back. From there, the game gives you enough room to slide into a weird romantic relationship with her with the middle ground "bluntly ask for sex" in the hot tub and fucking her sweetly. It's a small variation, but it gives you enough leeway to connect some dots in your head while still being plausibly entangled with other heroines. CYOA.

Neon juggles a lot variability, and some of it is roughly mismatched at times, but it's astounding things mesh as well as they do. I think this game is a stellar of example of letting a player carve out their own player character while also not having him be a blank slate.
 
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Ragnar

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I mean, the same applies to rl too, when often people get called fools because they, as you quote, don't learn from one mistake, when in reality they're repeating the patterns they're conditioned to do, and which take much more mental and conscious effort to break from --or even fully realize-- than simple "fool me once". Ironically, it's often these who simplify matters like that who in the end come across as rather dense, or at the very least lacking empathy to understand the true nature of the situation they comment on.

(i mean this as general observation, not aiming it at you specifically. It can probably come across more biting than i intend it to)
There are limits and always depends on the context at hand. Your girfriend asks you for money, later you discover that she has a gambling problem, you would be a fool if you lend her more money.
A saying can be dumb because it simplify complex situations, but at the same time we use it because it hit the nail on the head faster than a thousand words.
 
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Joshy92

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I don't know about all that Nicki stuff, I just know she's awesome. But anyway if you guys will indulge me I wanted to say one of the few taboo things that would absolutely get my penis hard.

It's Isabella eating our Brittani. Now I know it's taboo and all but Guy can do some pretty heavy stuff in this game, so maybe he can convince Isa who then convinces Britt? Talk about the hottest threesome ever.
 

MightbeSomeone

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I hated the re write of Nicki. It destroyed all the good things about her, it made her at all like someone guy would choose as a GF. And destroyed that PT for me. And in my other PTs when the MC is not a DICK the messing with the two young girls is CRINGE for me ...
 
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PHIL101-YYouPPHard

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Ashe also had her problem with Lucien. She posed once as a model for him when she was in college (he was using the alias Byron at the time), something which left her with self-esteem issues and did her damnedest to remove those photos from the internet. She's no idea that many years later the protagonist bought a set of them and is the sole owner. Makes me wonder how she'll react to this revelation.

As for Lucien, even when he changed after the accident as Risa mentioned, his actions are completely criminal since he's engaged in sex trafficking, blackmailing and drug dealing (and it was enough for Risa to become mentally desperate to commit suicide after she was forced to hear that girl being gangraped, not being taken serious by the cops and finding out that Lucien learned of her visit to the police station, only to fail and be saved by the quick intervention of Owen, the family's head of security). Some of the characters really are in a desperate situation, and if the player desires he can get them out of their troubles. Neon is really giving to his project much to explore.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. I think a number of things influence Ashe and how she reacts to harmful men. For one, her father is an actual positive male role model. Secondly, she's lived a sheltered life. And thirdly, she might have some self-doubt and guilt issues from that crash that she was responsible for (if I remember right). So, I think all of that gets projected onto the men she comes across; she assumes the best, and when she's given all the red flags that seem obvious to the rest of us, her instinct is to doubt it. Maybe on some level, she also feels like she deserves it even. I mean, maybe I'm over-complicating it? You don't have to be a victim of trauma or a coddled princess to get pushed or lured into a bad situation. But, it's too fun to armchair psychoanalyze. :LOL:

And just to clarify, I wasn't encouraging sympathy for a character like Lucien. But, sometimes even the worst kinds of people have very sympathetic pasts that almost assuredly played a large part into developing the damaged abusers they are. It's sad and morbidly interesting, but obviously I want to see Lucien get his shit kicked in. Brent and even Jamie are much more sympathetic, and I think it'd be interesting to see them arc. Maybe the way your MC chooses to treat them will influence their change? I think that'd be very narratively satisfying.

What you say is all right and can explain many situations in the game. On the other hand, Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. Nicki and Brent relationship shows Nicki being naive to the point of acting like an idiot. It happens in real life all the time, the usual conclusion is that you were a fool.
I mean, you can be dismissive and unsympathetic. But, there's a reason nobody, including you and me, really change the personality we've developed from childhood, even the worst parts that might sabotage ourselves or irritate others. And it's not because we're stupid. It's because it's incredibly, unimaginably hard and requires a lot of help and a lot of time, neither of which our LIs have had.

That is a good point, but I think it only matters so far as you get to her return after disappearing. Because after that, she's homeless. She shows up at your door a friend in need and the choice to accept her back unconditionally or take advantage of her is realigned with the rest of the cast. And sure, the reader starts from the position that she loves you, but her selfishly ditching him after they (potentially) had a real moment of connection confounds that. And it's further muddied since it comes after you potentially set up relationships with Jun, Ashe, and Gabi.

Honestly, though. You're right about the pedestal thing. Sometimes it feels like the choice is "Nicki" or "be a nice/mean sex pest" (I'd exclude Ashe from this dichotomy, she's enough steps removed from Guy's philanthropy IMO), although I do think you can blend the two. That's one thing I love about this game, the granularity. My main PT has Guy and Nicki connecting in his old apartment, turning into an asshole post time skip, and fucking Nicki in the bathroom out of frustration when she comes back. From there, the game gives you enough room to slide into a weird romantic relationship with her with the middle ground "bluntly ask for sex" in the hot tub and fucking her sweetly. It's a small variation, but it gives you enough leeway to connect some dots in your head while still being plausibly entangled with other heroines. CYOA.

Neon juggles a lot variability, and some of it is roughly mismatched at times, but it's astounding things mesh as well as they do. I think this game is a stellar of example of letting a player carve out their own player character while also not having him be a blank slate.
Maybe Nicki just has a strong aversion to feeling guilt or shame? She might fear being confronted with blowing the 10k that Guy already kindly gave her and is afraid of his reaction? And maybe her running away can be seen as not fully trusting Guy's feelings towards her, if she's used to a toxic kind of 'love', or maybe feeling like she doesn't deserve it.

But, regarding the 'nice sex pest' thing... I don't know, I think people have over-complicated the whole power dynamic stuff. First off, in a porn game, you know the LI is into your character because that's the point. The only real question is how your MC treats your LI. Even in the real world, though, there's an uncountable number of relationships out there that have power dynamics. If you were to point that out to the women, that their husband or boyfriend was 'technically being problematic' when they made their move, or that their relationship isn't equal (if the guy makes more money, for example), they'd probably roll their eyes tbh. The power dynamics point is for vulnerable women up against toxic men, or unfortunately men who just don't know how to read cues. I think those are the groups that women are understandably sick of.

In this VN, if Guy is nice and you play him as someone with genuine intentions, having a way to majorly help the LIs only proves to them he's valuable, not that he's dangling something over them; that latter perspective is there for the corruption/dark routes, not the romance route.
 
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Ragnar

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I mean, you can be dismissive and unsympathetic. But, there's a reason nobody, including you and me, really change the personality we've developed from childhood, even the worst parts that might sabotage ourselves or irritate others. And it's not because we're stupid. It's because it's incredibly, unimaginably hard and requires a lot of help and a lot of time, neither of which our LIs have had.
Idk man, you're painting Nicki as a underage kid now. Like it would be a very bad idea to make a person like that Guy's second in command. Because anyone can asks her for money and she will fall for it due to her upbringing shortcomings. While the basics of human personality is formed from 0 to 4 years old, you still grow and learn as a person after that.
 
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