VN Ren'Py Harem Hotel [v0.17.2] [Runey]

[Runey]

I dont get why we are getting physological and historical talks about slavery and stuff..
Its a fictional world
If Runey says slavery is profitable in his world... then it is.

Fiction!

Saying this devalues the world, though. Anytime someone diverges the conversation with "It's not real life, so why should we care?" completely devalues a story. Sure it's fictional, and anyone can just say "X = Y" but it's not valuable unless it's believable and enjoyable.

Slavery is just profitable. The less people pay workers, the more those people get. It's all about the money, and people will do whatever gets them the most.
In the US, the minimum wage is about $7.50 something. Most companies can afford more but don't pay more because it's less profitable. If they could get away with paying you nothing, and it was legal, they would. And did in the past. Now it's widely accepted to be wrong though.

 

[TheDevian]

Yes that is part of why I am a patron for this game, but there is porn with plot, and then over thinking plot lines.

Maybe, but some of us enjoy that stuff.

 

[Deleted member 929426]

Maybe, but some of us enjoy that stuff.

I'm just in it for the headpats.

Personally, I'm hoping we're coming to an end to this debate before this thread is derailed too much.

 

[ankhtar]

If all else fails to bring the debate to an end, we can all come together (giggity) in an unprecedented discussion of epic proportions about what the PC's face actually looks like.

 

[somebodynobody]

If all else fails to bring the debate to an end, we can all come together (giggity) in an unprecedented discussion of epic proportions about what the PC's face actually looks like.

That isn't really a debate, it is Honey Select, male characters look terrible in Honey Select. So the answer is "not good".

 

[SpikyHair]

Syl'anar is twice the size of North America and its biodiversity should allow it to be fairly resource independent, but I haven't really thought that much about this specifically haha

Really appreciate all the exposition provided here, and effort you put into the world building <3

Spoiler: Sociopolitical arguments on a pirate porn game site ftw!

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[Deleted member 2107272]

Egh... I'm not really sure what you're doing, it's like... slave apologia in disguise?

The opposite. I'm taking away the last refuge of the slaver, the idea that slavery at least works for the slaver. Which it doesn't. It makes the slaver poorer than they would be if they just did business with others without resorting to forcing them to do things through force of violence. As I said, I view it as bloodletting - it's horrible, and it doesn't even do what it's supposed to. It might have been a debate if slavery did help those who are enslaving others, but it doesn't. Free, educated workers willing to perform for their employer, are better at their jobs than slaves financially.

Also, slavery did exist in Europe, probably Switzerland too... In the ancient times, under Rome. Well, sorry, over the course of 12000 years, pretty much everything happened everywhere, including slavery. Within a reasonable timeframe of the past 500 years, it didn't happen there. And while you can make all sorts of claims like "some Swiss companies profited from the slave trade, therefore they're just as bad", I'm just looking at the direct impacts of slavery on the slavers. It doesn't work for them.

 

[Runey]

The opposite. I'm taking away the last refuge of the slaver, the idea that slavery at least works for the slaver. Which it doesn't. It makes the slaver poorer than they would be if they just did business with others without resorting to forcing them to do things through force of violence. As I said, I view it as bloodletting - it's horrible, and it doesn't even do what it's supposed to. It might have been a debate if slavery did help those who are enslaving others, but it doesn't. Free, educated workers willing to perform for their employer, are better at their jobs than slaves financially.

I totally agree, but there are two separate conversations here and a lot of other things to take into account.

If we're talking about building a nation up to modern standards as fast and profitable as possible 300+ years ago, slavery was a great way to do that.

In modern times, it's a horrible way of doing things. In modern times, it is absolutely best for our economy if we are all free and educated workers. But even in our real world, we still outsource slave labor to build our products. We just don't do it here anymore.

There is an equivalent to this in HH, the world uses Syl'anar's slaves to produce all their goods.

Also, slavery did exist in Europe, probably Switzerland too... In the ancient times, under Rome. Well, sorry, over the course of 12000 years, pretty much everything happened everywhere, including slavery. Within a reasonable timeframe of the past 500 years, it didn't happen there. And while you can make all sorts of claims like "some Swiss companies profited from the slave trade, therefore they're just as bad", I'm just looking at the direct impacts of slavery on the slavers. It doesn't work for them.

Right, in the past 500 years Europe wasn't a developing nation, it was one of the best technologically. America was a developing nation. My point in this is that slavery was a great way to jump start a developing nation, none of which Europe was during these times. And when they were developing more, slavery seems to have been higher. (I still disagree with the usage of slavery, but it's hard to deny slaves built America)

 

[Parcel]

Arguing that Europe didn't practice slavery and was successful ignores that much of Europe's power during that period was built on other horrible practices. Europe profited heavily from the slave trade, and profited even more from colonialism, which at times was as horrible as any form of slavery. Just look at the awful things that happened in

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.

Moreover, insisting that slavery wasn't profitable is baffling. How were the slave owners of the Southern US able to maintain their vast wealth through generations of slavery if it wasn't profitable? Why weren't the non-slave owning farmers in the Southern US outperforming the slave owners?

But economics of slavery is one thing I just can't allow to slide. It is important to me that people understand that slavery just doesn't work, that people view slavery in the same way as they view bloodletting - a horrifying practice that doesn't even work. That they not only oppose it on the basis that it's horrible (since some sociopaths might not care about that), but that it's also stupid and just doesn't work.

Slavery is unacceptable. But it's unacceptable for moral reasons. Focusing on the economics of slavery serves to muddle the strongest, most compelling argument against slavery.

 

[SpikyHair]

The opposite. I'm taking away the last refuge of the slaver, the idea that slavery at least works for the slaver. Which it doesn't.

This is blatantly and provably false.

You're using an article that discussed a macroeconomic impact of slavery to justify a baseless claim on individual scale.

Also, slavery did exist in Europe, probably Switzerland too... In the ancient times, under Rome.

You don't need to go that far, it was only mass Christianization of Europe that removed the legitimacy of direct slavery on religious grounds. The serfdom system in Eastern Europe can be argued to be an extension of it into later times.

Within a reasonable timeframe of the past 500 years, it didn't happen there.

In Europe? Um... Kinda did:

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And while you can make all sorts of claims like "some Swiss companies profited from the slave trade, therefore they're just as bad", I'm just looking at the direct impacts of slavery on the slavers. It doesn't work for them.

Not sure why you decided to obsess about Switzerland, with its unique economic position.

And yes, slavery did work for the slavers. Kinda why it's been a long-standing pretty much worldwide practice until societal norms prohibited its implementation... at least in explicit terms of it.

Edited for better links.

 

[Runey]

This is blatantly and provably false.

You're using an article that discussed a macroeconomic impact of slavery to justify a baseless claim on individual scale.
You don't need to go that far, it was only mass Christianization of Europe that removed the legitimacy of direct slavery on religious grounds. The serfdom system in Eastern Europe can be argued to be an extension of it into later times.
In Europe? Um... Kinda did:

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Not sure why you decided to obsess about Switzerland, with its unique economic position.

And yes, slavery did work for the slavers. Kinda why it's been a long-standing pretty much worldwide practice until societal norms prohibited its implementation... at least in explicit terms of it.

Fun fact, the word Slave comes from "Slav", Slavs were those enslaved by... you guessed it... europeans.

The term slave has its origins in the word slav. The slavs, who inhabited a large part of Eastern Europe, were taken as slaves by the Muslims of Spain during the ninth century AD.

 

[Parcel]

Having now looked at your source, it seems very focused on the Industrial Revolution, discounting the more than 100 years of American slavery before that point.

If a strategy is profitable for over 100 years, but then changing circumstances render it unprofitable, I don't think it's accurate to say that it "didn't make America rich", as the title of the article claims. Perhaps it didn't keep America rich, and I don't feel that literal slavery would be profitable in America today, but it certainly made America rich for a significant period of its history.

If you want to argue that the long-term consequences of slavery weren't worth that wealth, that's a valid argument, and one I'd agree with. But ignoring the decades of profitable slavery before the Industrial Revolution in an attempt to strengthen the argument against slavery is misguided, in my opinion.

EDIT: You also said that we need to demonstrate that slavery is unprofitable so that sociopaths don't engage in it. I don't think sociopaths would be bothered about the economic impact of their exploitation if that impact only occurs decades or a century after they've gotten rich and possibly already died. That's not going to be a compelling argument to stop exploitation.

 

[Deleted member 929426]

That isn't really a debate, it is Honey Select, male characters look terrible in Honey Select. So the answer is "not good".

Considering Runey's at least implied that the MC is basically us, the player, that answer probably still works (Honey Select or not).

 

[SpikyHair]

Fun fact, the word Slave comes from "Slav", Slavs were those enslaved by... you guessed it... europeans.

I'm keenly aware of it. Made it all the more entertaining on the occasions when I got confronted about how I should support "more-than-equal-rights" because of what my ancestors supposedly did (long story short, was in student council of our higher-education-place and there were demands to "adjust" grading and admittance test results based on racial profiling because, apparently, "equal rights").

Bitch, please, I'm Slavic. A first-gen immigrant, to boot. Now show me where I can get some "minority" special treatment in this culturally "Germanic" country, heh. /s

Apparently the concept of actual egalitarianism is frowned upon in modern America.

 

[Runey]

I'm keenly aware of it. Made it all the more entertaining on the occasions when I got confronted about how I should support "more-than-equal-rights" because of what my ancestors supposedly did (long story short, was in student council of our higher-education-place and there were demands to "adjust" grading and admittance test results based on racial profiling because, apparently, "equal rights").

Bitch, please, I'm Slavic. A first-gen immigrant, to boot. Now show me where I can get some "minority" special treatment in this culturally "Germanic" country, heh. /s

Apparently the concept of actual egalitarianism is frowned upon in modern America.

Hah, it has certainly seems that way. I know I could have been taught a lot better in school here in America.

 

[Deleted member 2107272]

Spoiler: boring politics and economics please ignore

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[SpikyHair]

Hah, it has certainly seems that way. I know I could have been taught a lot better in school here in America.

I still acutely remember the sheer ignorance of my American peers when the discussion veered into treatment of "Eastern Europe" by the WW1 and WW2 Allies.

Though I probably should stop with these kind of posts before the thread gets mod-nuked.

So, how about them new side-scenes, Runey?

 

[Runey]

I still acutely remember the sheer ignorance of my American peers when the discussion veered into treatment of "Eastern Europe" by the WW1 and WW2 Allies.

Though I probably should stop with these kind of posts before the thread gets mod-nuked.

So, how about them new side-scenes, Runey?

We barely learn of our own full history, how do you expect us to know others?
Oddly enough, I know european countries better than US states

The base of this conversation revolves around how slavery is handled in harem hotel, so I think it's fine.
In Syl'anar's current era, they use slaves for labor. In the case of Lin, MC barely pays her and she does a ton of work. He's a great master relatively though. But Lin is definitely profitable!

 

[c3p0]

"X = Y"

Mathematical I don't see a problem here. And neither from a programming point of view.

I'll just debunk your first thing, slavery did exist in europe way before the industrial revolution. A simple google search about slavery in switzerland debunks it. I should also mention the US was a developing nation that used slave labor to jump start it, as I said in my first response. Europe was already developed at this time, slave labor made America catch up faster than equality would.

So, as I'm Swiss, let me add a few things here form my perspective.

Spoiler: Some Swiss jabbering

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[Deleted member 2107272]

Spoiler: boring politics and economics please ignore

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