I am tired of seeing unfinished games

[sliveart777]

A lot of generalization for someone who fails to understand what goes behind the scenes. You're right though, most developers don't know their limits. What you don't understand though, is that limit? It's 1. Out of a thousand.

Let's look at f95zone for example. If we go off of engine tags (not genre tags. Amount of engine tags in the game section is how you determine how many games are in.), there is 12,779 games on f95zone. Of those 12,779 games; 6011 is completed, 202 is onhold, and 3206 is abandoned. That's 47% games on here are completed, 1% is onhold, and 25% is abandoned. That leaves 27% games are still being worked on. Of those completed games, odds are well over half (I want to put at about 26%ish possible) are games from studios/circles with financial backing. Going off that estimation, 15% remainder are games that are less then an hour long and were just marked as complete because "technically," they have a beginning, middle, and end. Whether those three are satisfactory is subjective. That leaves 12% as actual passion project games from independent developers. And how much of that percentage do you think got a living wage from this? I'll give you a hint, it's not double digit.

Game development is a brutal and penniless line of work. Especially as independent developers where your financial stability is not guaranteed like someone working at a major studio. They both have the same axe over their head except while the studio heads are the ones putting the axe over their employees, reality is what looms over the indie devs. It's also scary because when your game is done? It's done done. There's no $20 dlc, no $5 cosmetic; the moment your game's initial rush of sales stop, you're at the whim of the random joe is horny enough that his wallet is willing to appear near his hand or until you can release another title that is just barely going to eke out next month's rent because the money in eroge is dogshit for indie.

"Developers are surely not eager to complete any project?" Bullshit. Developers can't finish the project. Not when you have mouths to feed and bills to pay all while making less then a mcdonalds worker's salary; and frankly I doubt they appreciate every condescending dickhead who pops up to tell them that they just don't want to finish it.

But why should a new developer expect ANY compensation to begin with? They have zero experience or qualifications. All they have is temporary motivation, why in the world should anyone give money before they prove themselves capable of producing a worthwhile product?

It's not condescending to point out that this should be a HOBBY for the vast majority of dev's. Why are they in a position to have to feed their family or pay rent off of what their game earns? Nobody normally expects to get paid from a hobby.

 

[Winterfire]

sliveart777 is my spirit animal

 

[sliveart777]

Many do, actually . Not saying it's right, but many do. You're right though, many of these people treat it as a hobby rather than a job. They don't generally take it seriously and one could also argue that this is why they aren't really as successful as they want to be.

From the other side of the spectrum - why take it "seriously" when there's a guy making 7,000$ a month doing 1/100th of the work youput in?
I think this is the perspective that many of the developers stumble upon in their experiences.

Edit:
Personally though, I agree with you. The thing is, most other players don't. A good game with some substance ,realistically, does less well than a casual game made to appeal to the masses. The bane of casual development is sucking the soul out of your work and dumbing it down. Which is really correct? If you go by numbers, then casual gaming wins.

If you go by any other metric, people just label you crazy or claim you don't understand.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

New dev's should absolutely treat it as a hobby. It's unrealistic and naive to think that they can just jump in and treat it as their full time job and expect to get paid comparable to a fulltime job. Then blame the players when they don't support their mediocre product.

They can still take it seriously even as a hobby. Learn to make something good, deliver that product first. Once you can show that you're capable of competently developing something, then the people will come.

 

[Winterfire]

You sure do spend a lot of time taking jabs for someone who "loves me". Anything you want to talk about? I'm more of the direct type.

For a point of reference, my work flow is probably more productive than most.
Maybe you all should worry less about what I'm doing and focus on being more productive yourselves?

wow you dont understand sarcasm nor sliveart777's point, I get it now, you are a bot claiming to be human. Your secret is out for everyone to see now.
No wonder you are more productive, you do not eat or sleep, AI is stealing our jobs, someone stop him

 

[sliveart777]

I see what you mean, but this is where you misunderstand.

That's just not true. If the world was as just as making something competent and then being rewarded for it, more people would do it.

More often than not, the people who get rewarded the most put in the bare minimum of work that anyone with 1 month of experience making games can do.

The bar is incredibly low, but then again - that's what the average player seems keen to invest in.

You're absolutely and hopelessly wrong. Low effort work is rarely rewarded outside of mainstream media and the only reason low effort can be successful in the mainstream is because it's always carried by a well known name or brand. But not everyone who works hard is necessarily competent enough to succeed either. Highly motivated new dev's tend to overestimate their competence.

The most successful dev's have put in the hours of learning their craft. I can't think of a single low effort game that is massively successful. You just think it looks low effort because perhaps the game is simple? I don't know. Give me an example of a successful game that is, to your mind, low effort.

I'll try and give some examples of my own.

Icstor, creator of Milfy City was a 3d artist for YEARS before making his first game. Then he made, I think, 4 smaller games before making Milfy City.

NLT was a professional 3d artist before he started making 3d porn comics and years later made Lust Epidemic.

The guy who made Summer Time Saga was also a professional artist before making his game.

There are tons more, but I hope you see the pattern. These people had been honing their craft long before they blew up as huge successes. Whether it's through art or writing or design, they didn't just one day decide to become a successful adult game developer with zero associated skills, they had years of prior experience that made them more competent than most others.

 

[Winterfire]

You're absolutely and hopelessly wrong. Low effort work is rarely rewarded outside of mainstream media and the only reason low effort can be successful in the mainstream is because it's always carried by a well known name or brand. But not everyone who works hard is necessarily competent enough to succeed either. Highly motivated new dev's tend to overestimate their competence.

The most successful dev's have put in the hours of learning their craft. I can't think of a single low effort game that is massively successful. You just think it looks low effort because perhaps the game is simple? I don't know. Give me an example of a successful game that is, to your mind, low effort.

I'll try and give some examples of my own.

Icstor, creator of Milfy City was a 3d artist for YEARS before making his first game. Then he made, I think, 4 smaller games before making Milfy City.

NLT was a professional 3d artist before he started making 3d porn comics and years later made Lust Epidemic.

The guy who made Summer Time Saga was also a professional artist before making his game.

There are tons more, but I hope you see the pattern. These people had been honing their craft long before they blew up as huge successes. Whether it's through art or writing or design, they didn't just one day decide to become a successful adult game developer with zero associated skills, they had years of prior experience that made them more competent than most others.

He means you are more likely to have success in the NSFW scene as opposed to the SFW which has more competition I think

 

[Pornfather 3000]

I encourage anyone tired of abandoned games to make their own.

 

[Winterfire]

I encourage anyone tired of abandoned games to make their own.

done what now

 

[Pornfather 3000]

done what now

Complete it. Make more.

 

[Luderos]

Question is why do new devs expect to be able to pay for their rent from their game? I'd say like 95% of the games on here are garbage and not worth anyone's time let alone their money. Just because something takes a lot of time and effort to make does not mean it deserves financial support.

It's not condescending to point out that this should be a HOBBY for the vast majority of dev's.

They shouldn't expect to, but they should hope to. And IMO, you should want them to hope to. Being an aspiring professional is not the same as having a hobby. Learning to make games is more like an apprenticeship than a hobby (a very competitive, self-guided apprenticeship), and far fewer people would make the sacrifices needed to develop their skill if there wasn't some hope of getting paid. Fewer bad devs making bad games means fewer will eventually be good devs that make good games, right?

And people do want to be able to play those games that are "good enough" right? If people want to consume the product of someone's skill and effort, that's not really a hobby is it? Even the 95% of games that you call garbage get a ton of downloads.

The other part is that Patreon isn't a store. It's a way to support people who make things that you would like to exist but don't. If you want a game like Skyrim, the AAA industry has you covered. Studios can spend $100M making Skyrim because 30M people will give them $60. If you want a NSFW Skyrim filled with anthropomorphic characters you can breed (or any other non-mainstream niche), then you either get to make it yourself or hope that some "hobbyist" eventually invests enough time and energy to make the thing you'd like to play. Supporting people that are headed in that direction is no guarantee, but it makes it more likely to happen.

Also note that this support is more important the more niche the thing you want is. With a smaller potential audience, there are fewer potential supporters, so the end product ends up either being more expensive or lower quality (or mostly likely, both). Skyrim has a audience in the tens of millions (hundreds potentially). Furry-breeding-skyrim? Maybe tens of thousands. Quadriplegic-fainting-goat-breeding-skyrim? Maybe hundreds? The point being, if you want to consume something that isn't mass-market, you need to be willing to pay and to accept compromises. Maybe not you specifically, but someone always pays or the thing never gets made. Maybe the dev is the one paying initially, but that's not sustainable. If no one had bought the original Elder Scrolls, we wouldn't have gotten Skyrim.

 

[sliveart777]

They shouldn't expect to, but they should hope to. And IMO, you should want them to hope to. Being an aspiring professional is not the same as having a hobby. Learning to make games is more like an apprenticeship than a hobby (a very competitive, self-guided apprenticeship), and far fewer people would make the sacrifices needed to develop their skill if there wasn't some hope of getting paid. Fewer bad devs making bad games means fewer will eventually be good devs that make good games, right?

And people do want to be able to play those games that are "good enough" right? If people want to consume the product of someone's skill and effort, that's not really a hobby is it? Even the 95% of games that you call garbage get a ton of downloads.

The other part is that Patreon isn't a store. It's a way to support people who make things that you would like to exist but don't. If you want a game like Skyrim, the AAA industry has you covered. Studios can spend $100M making Skyrim because 30M people will give them $60. If you want a NSFW Skyrim filled with anthropomorphic characters you can breed (or any other non-mainstream niche), then you either get to make it yourself or hope that some "hobbyist" eventually invests enough time and energy to make the thing you'd like to play. Supporting people that are headed in that direction is no guarantee, but it makes it more likely to happen.

Also note that this support is more important the more niche the thing you want is. With a smaller potential audience, there are fewer potential supporters, so the end product ends up either being more expensive or lower quality (or mostly likely, both). Skyrim has a audience in the tens of millions (hundreds potentially). Furry-breeding-skyrim? Maybe tens of thousands. Quadriplegic-fainting-goat-breeding-skyrim? Maybe hundreds? The point being, if you want to consume something that isn't mass-market, you need to be willing to pay and to accept compromises. Maybe not you specifically, but someone always pays or the thing never gets made. Maybe the dev is the one paying initially, but that's not sustainable. If no one had bought the original Elder Scrolls, we wouldn't have gotten Skyrim.

Why are we comparing AAA Skyrim to single amateur developer games as if they were the same thing?

If someone made a game as good as Skyrim AND added adult content built in, it would be massively successful. Sex sells. Porn and games are both massive industries, marrying the two concepts is an untapped goldmine. The reason it's relatively untouched is because investors and publishers don't want to be associated with adult products.

I don't care what a dev's hopes are either. Everyone hopes for the unlikely event that would make them happy. The problem is unreasonable expectations and then blaming players that your mediocre game isn't being given money. If you want to make a niche game, more power to you, but don't expect much support if you make something not enough people want.

 

[Luderos]

Why are we comparing AAA Skyrim to single amateur developer games as if they were the same thing?

If someone made a game as good as Skyrim AND added adult content built in, it would be massively successful. Sex sells. Porn and games are both massive industries, marrying the two concepts is an untapped goldmine. The reason it's relatively untouched is because investors and publishers don't want to be associated with adult products.

The point was that the size of the market dictates the size/quality of the game. Would Porn Skyrim sell a lot of copies? Certainly. Would it sell enough copies to justify a $100M budget? Very unlikely. Current game publishers don't want to make porn of course, but don't you think if MindGeek thought they could spend a Skyrim-sized-budget and get Skyrim-sized-profit, they'd be all over that? Of course they would, but they aren't. It the same reason we don't get AAA porn movies. The market just doesn't justify it.

I don't care what a dev's hopes are either. Everyone hopes for the unlikely event that would make them happy. The problem is unreasonable expectations and then blaming players that your mediocre game isn't being given money. If you want to make a niche game, more power to you, but don't expect much support if you make something not enough people want.

I mostly agree, except that ALL porn games are niche. I assume that you actually want some porn games to play, and that doesn't happen in a vacuum. Unreasonable expectations are a huge problem for devs, but some players have them too.

 

[Greiya Archives]

Um, it seems a lot of people took one part of what i said out of context.

I didn't say anything about new developers - or even longtime developers - expecting this to be their main source of income.
Yes, i did mention that it can end up being infeasible to continue with little to no financial support. And I did mention that they have other priorities like real world expenses and responsibilities that prevent them from continuing without financial support.
What i meant is, such responsibilities, whether it's bills to pay or social responsibilities, can end up taking priority over game production, when it takes so much time and gives little in return.
If a dev has been producing for months or years and sees little to no financial support, their irl responsibilities will likely end up taking priority eventually, even if they want to continue game development, they won't be able to make it a priority, considering the amount of time it takes.
Whereas if after a while a dev sees what to them is a decent amount of financial support, it becomes incentive to continue development.


I have no idea where people got the impression i was saying new devs (which i didn't even mention. in fact my whole long comment didn't have the word "new" in it) should be able to cover their bills with their games (again, i mentioned irl responsibilities, including bills, but didn't say anything about devs - whether new or not - expecting to cover those said bills from game dev income).


I really wanna respond to parts of other comments, but I honestly feel like it'd be completely pointless.

 

[Greiya Archives]

op:

I am tired of seeing unfinished games

also op:

I only support finished games

...
...
...
Okay.

I'd say like 95% of the games on here are garbage and not worth anyone's time let alone their money

I don't think a single game on here is garbage.
Yes, some have higher quality art / renders than others, some are text only, some having better writing than others, some have better mechanisms than others.
But every game on here has the efforts of its dev(s) put into it. Not a single one of them is garbage.

There is only one small developer I'm supporting with money as of right now, but I have the means to support many more

This is mathematically equivalent to saying you have at least $20 of disposable income. Good for you (???). But doesn't make your opinions any more valid or valuable.

Also, if you'd like, see my comment above for my reply regarding the part of my previous comment you took completely out of context, made assumptions on, then replied to a point i didn't make

 

[sliveart777]

op:

also op:


...
...
...
Okay.


I don't think a single game on here is garbage.
Yes, some have higher quality art / renders than others, some are text only, some having better writing than others, some have better mechanisms than others.
But every game on here has the efforts of its dev(s) put into it. Not a single one of them is garbage.


This is mathematically equivalent to saying you have at least $20 of disposable income. Good for you (???). But doesn't make your opinions any more valid or valuable.

Also, if you'd like, see my comment above for my reply regarding the part of my previous comment you took completely out of context, made assumptions on, then replied to a point i didn't make

You literally said that some dev's have to stop making their game because they have to pay for rent and food. This implies that said dev is somewhat dependent on their games supporters to pay for these expenses. This is what I'm critical of.

When I addressed new devs, I meant those are inexperienced enough to have those naive expectations of financial return.

And yes, there are absolutely garbage games. The devs in here crying about not enough supporters are some of the contributors to said garbage. I don't care if you think it's mean. As soon as you ask for money for something you make, you make yourself open to any and all criticism. This is the real world, welcome.

 

[Greiya Archives]

You literally said that some dev's have to stop making their game because they have to pay for rent and food. This implies that said dev is somewhat dependent on their games supporters to pay for these expenses. This is what I'm critical of.

Literally mentioned social responsibilities in the exact same line.
I already clarified in my previous comment that I didn't say - or even imply actually - what you're saying.


I'm not replying further, you're entitled to your opinions, but I can't see either of us convincing the other of anything by arguing further.

 

[Ser Lordypants]

I could make a game like Milfy City in under 2 weeks

I can't even laugh. This is actual psychosis.

You're just taking this opportunity to blame everybody else for your lack of success. Consumers, other developers, luck. Maybe it's just that the market is absolutely flooded with mediocre koikatsu games, and developing one doesn't exactly make you Hideo Kojima.

Milfy City and Summertime Saga were great in their prime, before the milking. Effort went in, content came out. The art was good, especially for nearly 5 years ago. Certainly better than...

This.

You don't understand their value, but all these other tiny games deserve heaps of money thrown at them? So heavily biased.

 

[Nagozo]

Woah, some people really enjoy talking about themselves, huh? Good on you dude, can't wait to see your next borderline AAA release

 

[Ser Lordypants]

Also, I like my art.

Riiight. Shitty koikatsu screenshots are the pinnacle of artwork!

You did already claim that objective quality doesn't exist. How convenient for you.

But does any of this really matter to someone who's determined to think ill of you from the beginning?

Determined to think ill... Kind of like how you're determined to think ill of everybody but yourself? Consumers are horrible cheapskates because they don't give you money? Larger developers aren't putting in effort and you're so much better than them?

Looks like you've spent many hours carefully crafting these viewpoints with the sole purpose of coping to make yourself feel better. To exaggerate your worth, skill, and experience. If only some of that time was spent making better games... Oh well. Best of luck to you.

 

[Deleted member 4716251]

I never said I had a lack of success, that's just something other people say to make themselves feel better. And normally I ignore it because, I don't really like envy or jealousy directed my way. But -- I think I'm doing quite fine at the moment.

Also, I like my art. As a matter of fact - have more:
View attachment 2166666

The fact that people actually say things like this confirms (for me) that you have very little practical experience making video games. If you did, you'd understand more. Since you don't, I'll summarize (also keep in mind this is an oversimplification).

Most devs have to do this :

• Write dialog. [Takes most time for developers.]
• Make Renders. [Takes most time for developers.]
• Dress up the user interface. [Set your game apart, nice. Only needs to be done once.]
• Miscellaneous. [Sounds, mood, etc. Only needs to be done once.]
• Release the game. [Most devs would never release their project until they were sure it's perfect.]

Whereas this is what the workflow for a "normal" video game (one that would get listed on steam, for example) looks like:

• Write code. [Doesn't take long if you know what you're doing.]
• Test code / debug. [Generally takes up the most time. On feature can take anywhere from 10-20 hours to sort out properly, depending on complexity.]
• Write dialog.
• Make Renders.
• Optimize the interface. [Ignored until everything else was stable aka the end of the development period.]
• Miscellaneous. [Ignored until everything else was stable, aka the end of the development period.]
• Release the game. [It took months of development to get here. The only difference is I released WIP versions of my game along the way, as pretty much all Patreon developers do.]

In other words, my work load is closer to what studios / teams do. For better or worse , I generally do 3-4x more than the average developer. The only difference is studios don't do it publicly, and you are an example of why. They have to deal with people using pictures from month two of the development process as some desperate reasoning of why they are incompetent. It's like looking at the foundation of a structure during the building process and going - "that architect is shit". It logically makes no sense.

I could see if I released these projects on steam, but... I didn't. This is a pirate forum.

My estimate wasn't because I'm full of it, it's because I know what I'm capable of. What am I basing this on? My own experience. I made one game with 12-15 hours of game play within a year's time - solo. And within the next day or so, my second will feature 10-12 hours of play as well.

Milfy City has been around for some time, does it have that much content? Even with a team? My estimate seems reasonable to me, based on my own experience but, I can understand why you think it's bullshit. It does, however, support my words that performing minimal work often gets you much further. However you seem to be focused on finances as a measure of "success". So let's look there instead:


Full stop, I currently generate 800-1,000$ a month, per monetized game that I work on. I currently have 2 and I'm pretty close to my third. I have receipts to confirm this.

Clearly I must be lying - my subscriber pages don't reflect that at all!

I didn't grow them intentionally. Up until now I've been in one huge development process to build my game. The idea that this isn't normal is, frankly , silly. It's so silly that it seems like a desperate reach. I could understand if I released my earlier work to steam but....

If only there was a platform where developers could build their projects on the go with the help of loyal fans! That would be amazing! /s

I didn't grow my patreon page because I wanted something solid first. Now that I have something solid, I do and will continue to do so.
So far, every time I do any sort of serious growth efforts, I do get patrons / sales in response. I only mention this because this seems to matter to you as some metric of why you should accept what I'm saying.

Finally, my experience / insight:
I have data & analytics. I have been building game engines from scratch since I was in my teens as a hobby, and then under contract for indie devs. I have real world experience doing the things. I also have years (about 4) of experience working as a consultant w/ other game devs. These weren't just indie devs either. Some were from triple A studios or at the least studios good enough to get their works placed on Steam in a major capacity. None of this is said to hype up myself, it simply is what I have done. Once again, I don't understand why people are hell bent on denying anything but the possibility that I might have an inkling on what I say.

I don't do those things anymore, (because I quit to work for myself) but when I did, I generated over 20,000$+ in my highest grossing year. (Once again, not bragging, I'm just mentioning it because it's relevant to the conversation).

But does any of this really matter to someone who's determined to think ill of you from the beginning? At the end of the day, I can only explain my experiences and insight. I'm not forcing anything down anyone's throat.

Edit:

In summary, what I'm saying is that casual games are extremely easy to make and monetize. It doesn't take much time or energy at all. If I need to create one just to prove my point, then I'll be more than happy to.

"I generally do 3-4x more than the average developer."

You are so funny. You are just using another game for creating your art for game and you can even say this.

And, it's not your art (I don't care, btw).