Ren'Py Inanna Revenge [Ep.2] [AtemX Games]

[prpa]

By here is the thing. Do you want to take revenge in non-psychotic way? Make her work. Let her help people in Cascus, let her work in palace. Here, took my 5 minutes to figure our on how to start revenge point, without being psycho and out of character. You want conflict - order her to work naked and allow for grooping. Later you can add more to this, including what you and other people suggested. But don't come here and say that rape and torture bad, standing still for a few days good.

Agree, I'm not a fan of sexual punishment, and your examples (one about helping people of Cascus) are a really good way for her to redeem herself, especially in the compassionate MC path.

 

[Xythurr]

End point is the same - torture is torture and rape is rape. It like saying that woman got wet during rape, so it's not bad and rapist shouldn't be punished. It's still rape.
I agree, there is no point in discussing this further as it's clear that our differences come from different understanding of what out of character behaviour would be in this situation.

Suffering is the difference...the injury the punishment causes is the difference. Brutal rape is one of the worst things you can do to a person and that is what is depicted in this game. It is far more cruel than any of the other suggestions you like to pretend are somehow it's moral equivalent.
It's also completely out of place on a compassion playthrough. If it's not? The whole morality system should be scrapped then because fuck it.

 

[Ka1tzer]

Ah, yes, because "dominating someone sexually" without their consent isn't rape. And most definitely doesn't make MC psychotic considering circumstances. This suggestion you or someone else made. I'm sorry, I may be an idiot, but do you really want me to believe that this isn't to some point psychotic behaviour? You are asking if for me "revenge is torture + rape" but you suggest pretty much the same. Fuck yes, let's order her to stand up the whole time under the threath of pain. That is definatelly make sense and is not a turture . Again, at this point, it's kicking the dying dog.

By here is the thing. Do you want to take revenge in non-psychotic way? Make her work. Let her help people in Cascus, let her work in palace. Here, took my 5 minutes to figure our on how to start revenge point, without being psycho and out of character. You want conflict - order her to work naked and allow for grooping. Later you can add more to this, including what you and other people suggested. But don't come here and say that rape and torture bad, standing still for a few days good.

I don't like going into technicals but it's not rape, it's sexual assault - and it's not exactly virtuous. I'm not trying to justify anything btw, since I think that the spirit of what you meant is that "the person suffering the act would feel violated", yes? And hey, that's bad - no question about it. I did say that some of the suggestions would have the MC crossing dubious/villainous lines.

But can we agree that between the two evils, sexual harassment/assault is less bad than sadistic rape? For a poor analogy, would it be less worse to lose a finger or a hand? Both options suck but one is less bad than the other, yes?

It wouldn't be MY personal choice, but it's still A choice that would feel much better than the current one for neutral/good playthroughs (especially if the MC feels conflicted after the deed or midway through).

The other suggestions involving pain I mentioned don't have the sadistic element to them - or at least not in the way the current princess scene does. In the current scene, the MC revels in the pain, terror and suffering he's causing.

Out of the alternatives being suggested, if the MC felt any sort of pleasure from a torment he's causing, a good MC would feel guilty (a neutral might genuinely feel he's justified in his actions, maybe?). From then on he could still continue to do it because it's "justice", even if he feels bad about it.

Your suggestions in the second paragraph are good too, btw. Which adds to my point regarding the "princess situation" - her punishment and the MC's desire to enact it.

 

[burt69]

I really like the game overall but I am finding it disheartening how the dev is going through and upvoting every post that condones or likes how the scene currently plays out whether or not the person he is upvoting even has a logical or coherent argument.
Even if they are parroting the same condescending questions which I believe they are now asking in completely bad faith that many people have already wrote essays answering. They aren't even trying to understand. Still he upvotes them SMH.
Bodes ill for the future IMO and I may decide to save some money depending on the next update or two.

Yeah I am finding that really disappointing. I was recommending this game every chance I got and it was seriously my favorite new AVN but I have almost completely lost interest in it now due to that scene and the dev's upvotes/reactions showing quite clearly that they don't really care about the feedback from people who don't like the scene. (Retracted due to Dev's response. It was an unfair criticism to say they didn't care about the feedback)

That said, if this is the dev's vision for the game and they are happy with it then I will accept that it just isn't for me. I will miss Sylvia and Kayane though

 

[jadepaladin]

I honestly just want to see the dev's justfication for leaving the assault as an option instead of locking it behind a high ruthless playthrough. There are choices that are much less extreme locked behind ruthless points so why not this one?

I don't have a problem with the scene being in the VN, per se. It's not really my thing but I can accept a MC that wants to go scorched earth on anything and everything that's wronged him. It's a lot harder to accept that a MC that's very anti slavery, treats Syl and Kayane with respect, and tries to improve the world, would walk into his dungeon and assault or have Troy assault Regina. Especially since it's after the letter from the King, and anyone can put together that Regina was just trying to appease her father in a rather extreme way.

 

[RadicalGuy]

Suffering is the difference...the injury the punishment causes is the difference. Brutal rape is one of the worst things you can do to a person and that is what is depicted in this game. It is far more cruel than any of the other suggestions you like to pretend are somehow it's moral equivalent.
It's also completely out of place on a compassion playthrough. If it's not? The whole morality system should be scrapped then because fuck it.

Morally all those suggestion are the same - those are still form of torture. In short term, sure that standing suggestion is better. But then what? Let say that Regina stands for 48h. She's exhausted, falls down, don't have enough strenght to stand still, so she lays down and suffers. But I guess we won't see it so that's fine.
This scene may or may not be out of place. Depending on what type of character you are playing. You can play as good character, but easily controlled by emotions. In this case, I wouldn't say this scene is entirerly out of place. On good path, MC can have some regrets later (which he still may have).

It wouldn't be MY personal choice, but it's still A choice that would feel much better than the current one for neutral/good playthroughs (especially if the MC feels conflicted after the deed or midway through).

With that I can agree - if you have high compassion MC he should feel conflicted about the deed later.

 

[Xythurr]

I honestly just want to see the dev's justfication for leaving the assault as an option instead of locking it behind a high ruthless playthrough. There are choices that are much less extreme locked behind ruthless points so why not this one?

I don't have a problem with the scene being in the VN, per se. It's not really my thing but I can accept a MC that wants to go scorched earth on anything and everything that's wronged him. It's a lot harder to accept that a MC that's very anti slavery, treats Syl and Kayane with respect, and tries to improve the world, would walk into his dungeon and assault or have Troy assault Regina. Especially since it's after the letter from the King, and anyone can put together that Regina was just trying to appease her father in a rather extreme way.

Yeah I just wish there was a middle ground. She definitely needs some punishment but not that shit IMO. No catharsis for compassion players I guess.

 

[jadepaladin]

Yeah I just wish there was a middle ground. She definitely needs some punishment but not that shit IMO. No catharsis for compassion players I guess.

I could accept that, there's even ways to justify it mechanically, such not having the middle ground be available on a high compassion playthrough. If you're trying to be all neutral, (which I honestly haven't gotten much out of, just seems to hamper you more than anything else) you want to improve the world but fuck Regina in particular, not to the point of sexual assault. Maybe tie something else to the vengeance flag you can set earlier in the chapter.

 

[Xythurr]

Morally all those suggestion are the same - those are still form of torture. In short term, sure that standing suggestion is better. But then what? Let say that Regina stands for 48h. She's exhausted, falls down, don't have enough strenght to stand still, so she lays down and suffers. But I guess we won't see it so that's fine.
This scene may or may not be out of place. Depending on what type of character you are playing. You can play as good character, but easily controlled by emotions. In this case, I wouldn't say this scene is entirerly out of place. On good path, MC can have some regrets later (which he still may have).



With that I can agree - if you have high compassion MC he should feel conflicted about the deed later.

They are not moral equivalents. Violent sadistic rape cause far more harm than everything else on the list. It's interesting how you go off on a hypothetical about her being made to stand till she collapses but refuse to acknowledge basic accepted reality.
If all crimes were the same morally then the justice system would hand out equal punishments to rapists and jaywalkers.

You've had some good ideas about alternative punishments but your moral argument is retarded and refuted by reality.

 

[prpa]

They are not moral equivalents. Violent sadistic rape cause far more harm than everything else on the list. It's interesting how you go off on a hypothetical about her being made to stand till she collapses but refuse to acknowledge basic accepted reality.
If all crimes were the same morally then the justice system would hand out equal punishments to rapists and jaywalkers.

You've had some good ideas about alternative punishments but your moral argument is retarded and refuted by reality.

They might not be moral equivalents, but torture is still torture. Some of the so-called "better" punishments people suggested for the good MC path are just as messed up, like sleep deprivation for example. That shit was used in Guantanamo Bay.

 

[Xythurr]

They might not be moral equivalents, but torture is still torture. Some of the so-called "better"punishments people suggested for the good MC path are just as messed up, like sleep deprivation. That shit was used in Guantanamo Bay.

Indeed I wouldn't want to do that either. Still better than a brutal assraping.

 

[RadicalGuy]

They are not moral equivalents. Violent sadistic rape cause far more harm than everything else on the list. It's interesting how you go off on a hypothetical about her being made to stand till she collapses but refuse to acknowledge basic accepted reality.
If all crimes were the same morally then the justice system would hand out equal punishments to rapists and jaywalkers.

You've had some good ideas about alternative punishments but your moral argument is retarded and refuted by reality.

I never said that all crimes are on the same level morally - those sugestions are. Rape and jaywalking are two different crimes and are on different level morally. For example: rape affects other person, while jaywalking usually not.
I don't treat rape and sleep deprivation on different level, because at the end of the day, person affected ends up fucked in the head. You can argue that rape is worst because of pain during the act, but if someone ends up metally broken, does it matter for them? They end up with the trauma either way. And while psychologist can argue that it may make a difference, for me, as regular guy on the internet, it doesn't

 

[Raoddik]

I honestly just want to see the dev's justfication for leaving the assault as an option instead of locking it behind a high ruthless playthrough. There are choices that are much less extreme locked behind ruthless points so why not this one?

Probably because all the drive behind MC is to get revenge for all the suffering he went through, you can be nice guy but if someone hurt you a lot...

BTW: some of the punishments idea some people suggested in the topic as "better" alternative are so fu** up...
Also, do you have to get sexual with her or you can stop after torture?

 

[jadepaladin]

Probably because all the drive behind MC is to get revenge for all the suffering he went through, you can be nice guy but if someone hurt you a lot...

BTW: some of the punishments idea some people suggested in the topic as "better" alternative are so fu** up...
Also, do you have to get sexual with her or you can stop after torture?

Considering you touch her pussy and electrocute her from there as part of the torture, I'd argue that you already went sexual.

However, there is a choice between fucking her, having Troy fuck her, or leaving her as she is after the electrocution.

 

[Xythurr]

I never said that all crimes are on the same level morally - those sugestions are. Rape and jaywalking are two different crimes and are on different level morally. For example: rape affects other person, while jaywalking usually not.
I don't treat rape and sleep deprivation on different level, because at the end of the day, person affected ends up fucked in the head. You can argue that rape is worst because of pain during the act, but if someone ends up metally broken, does it matter for them? They end up with the trauma either way. And while psychologist can argue that it may make a difference, for me, as regular guy on the internet, it doesn't

Rape is proven to one of the most harmful things that can be done with it's damage going far past the physical injury. You are either being willfully ignorant or you don't care because you want to "win" some kind of internet debate. Not a good look. This knowledge is widely available and I hope no one you love suffers from it.

 

[Raoddik]

Considering you touch her pussy and electrocute her from there as part of the torture, I'd argue that you already went sexual.

However, there is a choice between fucking her, having Troy fuck her, or leaving her as she is after the electrocution.

I see, so basically he doing to her what she did to him (if your choice was to torture her), and the rest is just optional, good to know.

 

[MagicMan753]

Haven't gotten around to playing yet, will soon after I finish another game, but I think a middle of the road punishment, could be soemthing like spanking, maybe use a paddle too.

Enough to get point across, but not absolutely destroy her. But again haven't played so don't know full context.

Also saw spoiler and I wish older characters or character models from past games didn't return. Would rather just focus on new and leave the old game behind. but that is just my personal view on that.

 

[RadicalGuy]

Rape is proven to one of the most harmful things that can be done with it's damage going far past the physical injury. You are either being willfully ignorant or you don't care because you want to "win" some kind of internet debate. Not a good look. This knowledge is widely available and I hope no one you love suffers from it.

I understand that and agree with that. What i don't agree is replacing rape with sleep deprivation or other form of torture and calling it "ok". As I said, in both cases someone suffers and ends up with the trauma. For me, those are fucked up on the same level.
I don't believe there is a winner in this discussion. We are not fighting over something. You have your opinions, I have mine. Neither are better or worse.

 

[Xill]

I think I already covered this in my previous post, but again, there are situations where it's fine for the game to say "ok you have good karma so x can happen but not y". I would hope these are generally minor things or things outside the MCs control. That doesn't mean you cant leave important decisions like this up to the player. I, and I'm sure many others, definitely don't want the game to dictate significant things like this.
Giving player choice and agency over important moments does not make the karma system inconsistent or redundant. And forcing a good karma player down a path of "well you can do anything too bad karma anymore now" is dull and reduces the game to a more binary good/bad run setup. That has been done to death.

Then the system should be removed. I think everyone here who has said they like that you can choose regardless of your points also said that they'd rather not have any locked choices at all.

I don't have an issue with the fact that I can choose whatever by itself. My issue is that this is possible in a game where morality choices end up locking some choices. It's just weird. Because by introducing a system like that tells me that I get to dictate what this character grows into. The very option of him being able to choose the bad choice regardless of what points I made sure to get before makes that redundant.

If morality points didn't exist, which in turn meant that I wouldn't be locked out of some choices, then that wouldn't be an issue.

I mean, there's some really great games out there like the Witcher and Cyberpunk where you can make a good choice and then a bad choice and it all flows nicely anyway and there's no points to worry about. But if they did have morality points and then you suddenly came across a choice where you'd be able to choose both good and evil, regardless of what you did, then you can bet your ass people would complain about it. The choice being available goes against the personality of the character you've been building up until this time, and the very systems that the game has support that. If those systems didn't exist, that wouldn't be an issue. It's narrative inconsistency.

 

[AtemX]

Since so many people have been asking, I’ll share my reasoning behind that particular scene and why I didn’t lock it behind a specific choice, unlike some others. I hadn’t planned on commenting here again after the game was leaked so early (even though, honestly, waiting just one week after release doesn’t seem excessive in this context), and this will probably be my last message on this forum. If anyone wants to reach out to me (constructively), feel free to join my Discord server — I’d be happy to chat there.


Now, about the scene in question: at first, I did lock it behind a high Ruthlessness level (50, if I remember correctly — just like Manon’s scene). However, I realized that some players might want to play a compassionate MC, while still having the option to take revenge on her for what he went through for nearly a month — partly because of her. That kind of personal vendetta can’t really be justified either way, but let’s be honest: even the "good guy" can snap after going through serious trauma.


I knew there was no “perfect” option here — either some would complain about being forced to hear her out when they didn’t want to, or others (like now) would say that the revenge choice shouldn’t even be available. I chose this solution because I trust players to make logical choices based on their own intentions, especially since the choice was clearly labeled as a torture scene (also, the r*pe scene is optional, even if you choose the torture).


Since AlwaysFan, I’ve always wanted to offer players a wide range of possibilities — a kind of menu where they can pick what they like and skip the rest. The problem is that many players feel “forced” to try every possible path and then complain about clicking something they didn’t enjoy.


Also, I’d appreciate it if people stopped saying I don’t listen to feedback. Yes, I liked comments from people who shared my reasoning — and last time I checked, that’s what the like button is for, isn’t it? I’ll be making a few adjustments to that specific choice in the next episode, but for now, I’d kindly ask that you refrain from clicking on a choice you already know won’t appeal to you.


That’s it from me — take care, everyone, and I hope you’ll continue to enjoy Inanna Revenge.