VN Ren'Py Leaving DNA [Ep. 4.3a] [Impious Monk]

[Maviarab]

Yeah, exactly. The chapters aren't one character after another either but switch around and intersect. So I'm constantly scrolling up and down to the respective LI to find out about consequences. But as I said, not a big deal. But if MrBubu would discover this game I wouldn't mind

Wait. You want it simpler but also want a Bubu walkthrough?

 

[ManipuliereGlied]

Wait. You want it simpler but also want a Bubu walkthrough?

Is that really a contradiction? LDNA isn't that complex and multilayered under the hood (I think) but I'd still be interested in a WT that reveals everything, but chronologically.

 

[Hengat]

I forgot about Colleen. She seemed like a nice addition to the story last episode but now I have mixed feelings about Rockford's actions. I may don't know how it is to not have a family or to find out you have a relative after so many years so I can't relate with MC but I really can't understand the reasoning of him holding on to her so much.

I liked the idea of him finding motivation to keep going in his work, friends, Luis etc. but Colleen? I wish there was a choice to find strength in everyone except her. Rockford met her couple of days/weeks ago and read her some book and suddenly loves and adores her and praises her to everyone around him and they all are like "Yeah, that's great. I'd love to meet her, good for you buddy" Is it? Is it good? He knows he's using her. He creates some image in his head like she's a beacon of hope and sunshine for him just because she's innocent so he decides to keep visiting her to read, talk some nice words and take her to park just because they're blood related. She doesn't know that and he's not gonna tell her. Even if he'd tell her it wouldn't matter because she's practically a veggie so him doing all this and backing it up with "That's my sister" doesn't make sense.

I know he later says that he does this to make both himself and her feel better but now that means her being his sister which was the foundation of this relationship, simply doesn't matter. He could have wake up any day in his life and start to volunteer in a nursery home for any other person. Now it turns out they're not even blood related (Which I could almost bet will make Rockford doubt having a relationship with Colleen). So my question is: Why the sob story about a girl on the wheelchair was added to this novel other than to make people sad at the part with book about the rabbit?

 

[jadepaladin]

Yeah, exactly. The chapters aren't one character after another either but switch around and intersect. So I'm constantly scrolling up and down to the respective LI to find out about consequences. But as I said, not a big deal. But if MrBubu would discover this game I wouldn't mind

The only real scenario I could think where that would apply is if you're trying a man whore playthrough.
Otherwise, if I'm interested in Aghavni, almost everything (if not literally everything) found on the other's routes won't matter. I could see the argument being made for trust points but most of those are common sense decisions that come down to "do I tell person about something or not."

Still, I'm interested. Can you show an example of the current walkthrough where it doesn't suit your needs? Every time a conflict comes up it's explained in the WT to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Elduriel]

LDNA isn't that complex and multilayered under the hood (I think)

I think you would be surprised. There are some subtle choices that I'm willing to bet will lead to some dark conclusions down the line. The incest thing for one, how you deal with Jamie's case, the choices involving Colleen, the potential fight with Tanner, some abuse of his DA privileges in private matters, how you deal with your relationships (i.e how open MC allows himself to be) etc . Sure I'm guessing most players go with the safe choices, but there will be a bad ending to all this I'm pretty sure depending what the player decides to do.

 

[John972]

Yeah it wasnt meant as a critic against the dev or anything and i dont even think hes doubting it this much more than before (yet?), imo his conversation/rant with the college girls in the bar (about jurys, was funny as a german btw) was less waving conviction and more a general "philosophical" view on the matter.

He behaved more like a prof who wants incite curiosity and new thoughts than someone who strictly declares everything a fact hes saying.

I liked the "smaller" moral dilemmas so far a lot already, like is it okay to look up the guy who raped emmeline? Its like 100% safe that this guy is guilty and justice failed but i would still argue it would not be okay to do so. It would open doors to a spy state if every lawyer/officer looks private data up whenever he feels its justified.

But what if looking him up could help preventing it happening again?

I really liked these smaller moral dilemmas

Agree with the smaller moral dilemmas. I like AVNs where there is a lot going on under the hood.

The example you give is interesting because it shows the slippery slope Rockford may fall off. What starts small can escalate. Rockford performing an illegal but harmless background check on Koch could lead to a greater good by eventually holding Koch accountable. Yet that behavior could also eventually escalate to something akin to Sen. Carrington seemingly authorizing illegal assassinations because he believes it makes those he loves safe.

I finally managed to finish this episode and the only thing that bothers me is Rockford "standing up" for Solomon while having an argument with Malena. Firstly I don't agree with this decision so it's a small break of immersion. Secondly you can simply choose to not give a damn about Solomon while talking with Sean and Donna Lee but it's only after the talk with Malena. It makes this whole quarrel a weak plot point. I understand they needed to be drift apart for a time so we can unravel whatever Malena is dealing with but I feel like it could have been done better.

Still, great update and good luck with the next one Monk.

Almost forgot, I couldn't care less about Emmeline reveal. Team Malena all the way.

Yeah, I felt the same way when it came to the choice about Hobbs presented when Rockford was with Malena.

Having said that, I think it is symptomatic of the weakness of interactive, choice-driven story-telling in general.

Rockford is a fictional character with his own life experiences, his own set of traumas that affect his world-view and decision-making.

Yet, we, the players, are expected to control the path Rockford takes. That's kinda like creating a composite, schizophrenic character because the life experiences and world-view of most players don't naturally align with Rockford's, unless a player has experienced the specific traumas that Rockford has. Thus, we are able to make choices that align with our own personas but not necessarily Rockford's.

The choice Rockford faces with Malena is a result of his very deep-seated belief that biological family ties are paramount above all other relationships. Biological ties are something Rockford has wanted his entire life, an outlook shaped by loss and abandonment. It's hardly surprising that the choice while with Malena involves an option to pursue a relationship with one of only two blood relations Rockford thinks he has, not matter how irrational we, the players, think it is. We simply aren't Rockford, the character.

The general trend of this AVN seems to allow a player to put Rockford on a path where he finally acknowledges his pursuit of biological ties at the expense of his other relationships is a fallacy, or to keep Rockford with that ingrained belief.

I know that my main playthrough will naturally align with my own experiences, beliefs, and desires, rather than Rockford's. When all is said and done, I will try to replay the AVN to explore other paths from Rockford's perspective rather than my own.

PS - I wonder if we get a situation in the future that reinforces Rockford's belief that only biological ties matter. That situation could involve Sen. Carrington cutting Rockford loose and ostracizing him for some reason to protect Carrington's family - his blood relations. Carrington already told Rockford that everything he does with the Orcs is to protect his biological family - the thing he cares about the most.

 

[Krytax123]

Agree with the smaller moral dilemmas. I like AVNs where there is a lot going on under the hood.

The example you give is interesting because it shows the slippery slope Rockford may fall off. What starts small can escalate. Rockford performing an illegal but harmless background check on Koch could lead to a greater good by eventually holding Koch accountable. Yet that behavior could also eventually escalate to something akin to Sen. Carrington seemingly authorizing illegal assassinations because he believes it makes those he loves safe.

Yeah and furthermore its just ... law enforcement usually think they are right with their suspects, if this alone without any kind of evidence would allow them to scan suspects and whatsoever you could simply make all this stuff public in the first place.

There are valid reasons why some parameters must be met to look stuff like that up. Its the "i know better" mentality which as you said Carrington has, but he doesnt (have to) take responsibility for his actions and can apparently just do what he wants.

Yeah, I felt the same way when it came to the choice about Hobbs presented when Rockford was with Malena.

Having said that, I think it is symptomatic of the weakness of interactive, choice-driven story-telling in general.

Rockford is a fictional character with his own life experiences, his own set of traumas that affect his world-view and decision-making.

Yet, we, the players, are expected to control the path Rockford takes. That's kinda like creating a composite, schizophrenic character because the life experiences and world-view of most players don't naturally align with Rockford's, unless a player has experienced the specific traumas that Rockford has. Thus, we are able to make choices that align with our own personas but not necessarily Rockford's.

The choice Rockford faces with Malena is a result of his very deep-seated belief that biological family ties are paramount above all other relationships. Biological ties are something Rockford has wanted his entire life, an outlook shaped by loss and abandonment. It's hardly surprising that the choice while with Malena involves an option to pursue a relationship with one of only two blood relations Rockford thinks he has, not matter how irrational we, the players, think it is. We simply aren't Rockford, the character.

The general trend of this AVN seems to allow a player to put Rockford on a path where he finally acknowledges his pursuit of biological ties at the expense of his other relationships is a fallacy, or to keep Rockford with that ingrained belief.

I know that my main playthrough will naturally align with my own experiences, beliefs, and desires, rather than Rockford's. When all is said and done, I will try to replay the AVN to explore other paths from Rockford's perspective rather than my own.

PS - I wonder if we get a situation in the future that reinforces Rockford's belief that only biological ties matter. That situation could involve Sen. Carrington cutting Rockford loose and ostracizing him for some reason to protect Carrington's family - his blood relations. Carrington already told Rockford that everything he does with the Orcs is to protect his biological family - the thing he cares about the most.

I think we are supposed to feel "annoyed" by this behavior from Rockford. Its close to a obsession with his biological ties which is rooted in his abandonment issues and so on. It is a character flaw which he has to overcome.

Colleen and thinking shes his sister helped him seemingly to let people closer but the next step is to realize that the blood relation barely matters in his case. He is very much (or will be) able to create a new family with new blood ties.

Its not just with Malena, i mentioned it in the past already, being in Jamie's place i would feel ridiculed by him saying "he likes/loves her as much as colleen" who he knows for like 2 days just because the same motherfucker made two women pregnant.

 

[lpfn102]

This is the first game in a long time that made me zip my pants back up and play just for the story. I think I have a new favourite.

 

[John972]

I forgot about Colleen. She seemed like a nice addition to the story last episode but now I have mixed feelings about Rockford's actions. I may don't know how it is to not have a family or to find out you have a relative after so many years so I can't relate with MC but I really can't understand the reasoning of him holding on to her so much.

I liked the idea of him finding motivation to keep going in his work, friends, Luis etc. but Colleen? I wish there was a choice to find strength in everyone except her. Rockford met her couple of days/weeks ago and read her some book and suddenly loves and adores her and praises her to everyone around him and they all are like "Yeah, that's great. I'd love to meet her, good for you buddy" Is it? Is it good? He knows he's using her. He creates some image in his head like she's a beacon of hope and sunshine for him just because she's innocent so he decides to keep visiting her to read, talk some nice words and take her to park just because they're blood related. She doesn't know that and he's not gonna tell her. Even if he'd tell her it wouldn't matter because she's practically a veggie so him doing all this and backing it up with "That's my sister" doesn't make sense.

I know he later says that he does this to make both himself and her feel better but now that means her being his sister which was the foundation of this relationship, simply doesn't matter. He could have wake up any day in his life and start to volunteer in a nursery home for any other person. Now it turns out they're not even blood related (Which I could almost bet will make Rockford doubt having a relationship with Colleen). So my question is: Why the sob story about a girl on the wheelchair was added to this novel other than to make people sad at the part with book about the rabbit?

That "sob story" cuts right to the heart of who Rockford is and what he desires in life, and it plays into one of the central themes in LeavingDNA - family.

Rockford is someone deeply traumatized by his past and his life experience makes him want to have nothing more than real kin. His actions may not seem rational to you or me, especially if that's an experience we've never lived ourselves.

Episode 4 sees some real change in Rockford's emotional life and that's mostly down to Colleen, or at least Rockford's perception of who Colleen is, i,e, real kin. If Rockford doesn't bond with Colleen, then he has little emotional growth and reverts to his usual closed-off self.

Jamie, who knows Rockford better than anyone, tells her brother, Trevor, that Rockford's recent behavioral changes are because of Colleen. She understands the void Colleen has filled in Rockford's life. An interesting aspect of this is that Jamie knows Rockford always treated her as a surrogate little sister, and now he has a real one. I wonder how much Colleen entering Rockford's life influenced her decision to leave and not pursue a romantic relationship with Rockford, since Colleen fills an emotional need of Rockford's that she knows she never can. It may not matter that Colleen isn't Rockford's real sister because Emmeline is. Anyway, it will be interesting if Epi 5 features a scene where Rockford tells Jamie who Colleen and Emmeline really are. I wonder what her reaction will be?

Why does Rockford want to look after and protect Colleen? Because he believes he has to give her something he never had. Remember, by the end of episode 4, it's only 30 days since Rockford first learnt he had a "sister," and 18 days since he first met his "sister." That's not a lot of time for Rockford to rationally process everything that's happened.

The whole point of Colleen and the DNA reveal is allow Rockford to finally confront the oversized importance he puts on kin above all else. It's the ultimate, dark mind-fuck. His "love" for Colleen has nothing to do with who and what Colleen really is; it's merely a notion inside of his own head. Will Rockford start to realize that he can have deep, emotionally-satisfying relationships outside of kin, and that he has had such relationships all along? Who will Colleen be to Rockford going forward, now he knows the truth?

 

[Deleted member 6503042]

The only real scenario I could think where that would apply is if you're trying a man whore playthrough.
Otherwise, if I'm interested in Aghavni, almost everything (if not literally everything) found on the other's routes won't matter. I could see the argument being made for trust points but most of those are common sense decisions that come down to "do I tell person about something or not."

Still, I'm interested. Can you show an example of the current walkthrough where it doesn't suit your needs? Every time a conflict comes up it's explained in the WT to the best of my knowledge.

That really is not deep if you ask me. I also would like a sequential walkthrough, simply because of the flow of the story. That kinda is common sense, is it not?

 

[jadepaladin]

That really is not deep if you ask me. I also would like a sequential walkthrough, simply because of the flow of the story. That kinda is common sense, is it not?

No, not really. Plus, I asked the other person in the hopes they would provide an answer to my question, and thus give IM a chance to look it over. I'd rather have IM respond and "fix" issues with his own WT than try to bring in a third party (Bubu) to tack yet another WT onto his workload when a WT already exists.

 

[Ottoeight]

That "sob story" cuts right to the heart of who Rockford is and what he desires in life, and it plays into one of the central themes in LeavingDNA - family.

Rockford is someone deeply traumatized by his past and his life experience makes him want to have nothing more than real kin. His actions may not seem rational to you or me, especially if that's an experience we've never lived ourselves.

Episode 4 sees some real change in Rockford's emotional life and that's mostly down to Colleen, or at least Rockford's perception of who Colleen is, i,e, real kin. If Rockford doesn't bond with Colleen, then he has little emotional growth and reverts to his usual closed-off self.

Jamie, who knows Rockford better than anyone, tells her brother, Trevor, that Rockford's recent behavioral changes are because of Colleen. She understands the void Colleen has filled in Rockford's life. An interesting aspect of this is that Jamie knows Rockford always treated her as a surrogate little sister, and now he has a real one. I wonder how much Colleen entering Rockford's life influenced her decision to leave and not pursue a romantic relationship with Rockford, since Colleen fills an emotional need of Rockford's that she knows she never can. It may not matter that Colleen isn't Rockford's real sister because Emmeline is. Anyway, it will be interesting if Epi 5 features a scene where Rockford tells Jamie who Colleen and Emmeline really are. I wonder what her reaction will be?

Why does Rockford want to look after and protect Colleen? Because he believes he has to give her something he never had. Remember, by the end of episode 4, it's only 30 days since Rockford first learnt he had a "sister," and 18 days since he first met his "sister." That's not a lot of time for Rockford to rationally process everything that's happened.

The whole point of Colleen and the DNA reveal is allow Rockford to finally confront the oversized importance he puts on kin above all else. It's the ultimate, dark mind-fuck. His "love" for Colleen has nothing to do with who and what Colleen really is; it's merely a notion inside of his own head. Will Rockford start to realize that he can have deep, emotionally-satisfying relationships outside of kin, and that he has had such relationships all along? Who will Colleen be to Rockford going forward, now he knows the truth?

It is a South American soap opera style plot twist: "Paco, I am not your mother: the truth is that... I'm your father!"

Crap like that.

Period.

Anyway, we saw it coming that Rockford was wrong and white-bearded Dude was NOT his dad: what was unexpected was Emmeline and MC being siblings.

Oh, and there was no need for them to have sex. Aghavni could have come before the act.

Anyway, I chose another path, therefore I couldn't care less about the whole issue. Who in the world would choose Emmeline over Jamie or Aghavni? NOT ME, of course.

 

[Impious Monk]

I don't really want to make a walkthrough that gives suggestions on things like whether or not to run the background check on Tanner. Those types of choices come with their own self-evident ethical questions, and I really don't want a player to know exactly where those choices are leading anyway.

As for combining the LI significant choices into one document, I suppose I could think about doing that for Episode Five if enough people preferred it that way. It seems like it would get messy, though. Having each LI's path separated out is a lot cleaner.

 

[Deleted member 6503042]

I prefer a WT that follows the story itself. It's really not about LIs usually, most of the time when I can't decide which to choose I check what the options meant for the story. So, going up and down whenever I wanted to check something is a chore. It already has colour theme, all that WT needs saying '+trust points for LI x' '-trust points for LI y' etc. Tbh, not a big deal for me because I like to do my runs blind rather than following a WT but WT is helpful if I try to understand game deeper, hesitate to make a choice, what an option that I don't choose would lead etc. So, my vote is on sequential WT rather than LI focused one.

 

[ManipuliereGlied]

The only real scenario I could think where that would apply is if you're trying a man whore playthrough.
Otherwise, if I'm interested in Aghavni, almost everything (if not literally everything) found on the other's routes won't matter. I could see the argument being made for trust points but most of those are common sense decisions that come down to "do I tell person about something or not."

Still, I'm interested. Can you show an example of the current walkthrough where it doesn't suit your needs? Every time a conflict comes up it's explained in the WT to the best of my knowledge.

It really is as simple as I described. I like to check the consequences of each decision so I tab out and search for the choice in the WT. In a standard seq WT I'm already on the correct page and don't need to check on which page the correct character and the correct episode is laid out. And yeah, I like playing the man whore so I need to see where I want to split up.

I think you would be surprised. There are some subtle choices that I'm willing to bet will lead to some dark conclusions down the line. The incest thing for one, how you deal with Jamie's case, the choices involving Colleen, the potential fight with Tanner, some abuse of his DA privileges in private matters, how you deal with your relationships (i.e how open MC allows himself to be) etc . Sure I'm guessing most players go with the safe choices, but there will be a bad ending to all this I'm pretty sure depending what the player decides to do.

You may very well be correct. And I would be interested in seeing a detailed list of choices and consequences. I absolutely see the benefit of having a WT "light" so it's less route optimisation and more natural choices but I also like my WT that completely dissect everything (even if it is just out of curiosity afterwards).

 

[Elduriel]

You may very well be correct. And I would be interested in seeing a detailed list of choices and consequences. I absolutely see the benefit of having a WT "light" so it's less route optimisation and more natural choices but I also like my WT that completely dissect everything (even if it is just out of curiosity afterwards).

well the only one who could make a WT like that is the dev. The rest of us can only work with the variables we're given, and those don't tell a whole lot about the potential importance of them down the line.

 

[jadepaladin]

It really is as simple as I described. I like to check the consequences of each decision so I tab out and search for the choice in the WT. In a standard seq WT I'm already on the correct page and don't need to check on which page the correct character and the correct episode is laid out. And yeah, I like playing the man whore so I need to see where I want to split up.

Alright I understand what you're looking for. Since the game isn't really set up for man whore, the WT wouldn't reflect that. You can always go to Bubu's F95 page or Patreon and request it but given that he's constantly having to update his current ones, I wouldn't expect much.

 

[John972]

Anyway, we saw it coming ...

Wow! What a revelation! "We" knew or should have known in advance of the Epi 5 cliffhanger that Hobbs wasn't Rockford's father? Damn! I missed that...

...probably because you've NEVER once expressed that theory in a post here.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing... except there is nothing I can see in the story script that even hints that Hobbs isn't Rockford's father.

I would love to know how and why you "saw it coming." Please let me know what I missed.

 

[Ottoeight]

Wow! What a revelation! "We" knew or should have known in advance of the Epi 5 cliffhanger that Hobbs wasn't Rockford's father? Damn! I missed that...

...probably because you've NEVER once expressed that theory in a post here.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing... except there is nothing I can see in the story script that even hints that Hobbs isn't Rockford's father.

I would love to know how and why you "saw it coming." Please let me know what I missed.

1) The Orcs themselves first told Rockford: "the hell are you talking about? Hobbs only had a daughter" (or so).

2) You should have payed attention at Emmeline's father thoughts immediately after the first time Rockford visits him in jail.

So, why did you think Rockford was right when he told Aghavni that Hobbs was his father?

 

[John972]

1) The Orcs themselves first told Rockford: "the hell are you talking about? Hobbs only had a daughter" (or so).

2) You should have payed attention at Emmeline's father thoughts immediately after the first time Rockford visits him in jail.

So, why did you think Rockford was right when he told Aghavni that Hobbs was his father?

During the taped interview, Aghavni asks Rockford the names of his parents. He replies, "My mother's name was Magnolia Rockford. My father's name is or was Solomon Hobbs."

Since that's not questioned during the Police interview, it is entirely reasonable to assume Hobbs is officially recorded as Rockford's father, like on a birth certificate recording both parent's names.

Never once is there any indication that Rockford only learnt the name of his father from his mother or grandfather before they died. It's unrealistic to think Rockford wrote "Solomon Hobbs" and Hobbs' DOB down when he was only 12 or younger, i.e. before his grandfather died. Rockford would need more than just a name to establish the identity of Solomon Hobbs and obtain a military service file.

Robert Jamison did tell Rockford that Hobbs only had a daughter. When told the name of Rockford's mother, Jamison said, "That's--you're talking about his--the woman he [Hobbs] was dating when he first joined the service. Well, I did meet her once. With Solomon. But..."

Jamison and the rest of the Orcs not knowing Hobbs also had a son means jack-shit, given that Hobbs cut-and-ran and Rockford's mother obviously didn't socialize with the Orcs.

Rockford was born only a few years after Hobbs joined the army. Colleen Thompson was born two years AFTER the Orcs all retired, and within roughly a year of the births of Robert Jamison's and Andreas Fedor's children.

None of what Jamison said in prison made it self-evident that Hobbs was not Rockford's real father. It only becomes self-evident in HINDSIGHT, i.e. after the Epi 4 cliffhanger.

It's the same with the reveal that Henry Clay is Solomon Hobbs. That wasn't self-evident. Everything only became clear in hindsight - AFTER the reveal.

it's the same with the reveal about the Orc feud leading to an attempted murder and two actual murders. None of it was self-evident before Epi 4.

Saying "we saw it coming..." isn't the same as having things fall into place in hindsight. If you had made a post doubting Rockford's parentage BEFORE the release of Epi 4, it would be different.