That may be right, but not setting any deadlines at all is a great way to not get things done.
- Thread starter Alexander Krisnov
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- Aug 28, 2018
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It's a two step operation my dude, I'm not sure what to tell you.
Than let me ask you. If you would have to dig a 2 cubic meter big hole, can you tell me exactly how long would it take? Nope, because for you to say it, you need a certain amount of experience with digging and you would be in the need of the knowledge about the type of soil you gonna dig. They are in a situation that is something like that, they don't have enough experience in games because it is their first game. And they create some of their own assets and not work with given resources. Furthermore, they are in the production phase, which means they work on certain things and assets beforehand, so later they could work faster on the content of the game. To dig a hole, you don't start it without the needed equipment and resources otherwise later you would have to make many unnecessary rounds to acquire them. And lastly, it is still better for them to not state a certain deadline than to give one and later being unable to keep it. That would only make more trouble for him and for you guys to.
- Aug 28, 2018
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I hate this hole digging analogy because a sensible person would just research and learn about types of soil, tools to use, how to use them, and the most efficient ways to dig holes. There's only 99999999999 tutorials on youtube to make Unity games, and you don't need expensive certifications, work experience or city permits to program games. People have started and finished games from scratch in the time this has been around. One notable mention would be A Robot Named Fight which is a Rogue-like action platformer with randomly generated massive Metroid-level maps and tons of upgrades that change each playthrough. A run can take anywhere from an hour to 3 and there's a progression of unlocks that have to have internal logic to make the game beatable every time while remaining ramdom. Matt built the game from scratch, did the music, art, and coding all on his own and the game's out now for you to play, and has been for a while and still gets updates. Axiom Verge is another notable game made by a single person but I'm not sure how long that one took. Note that I'm mentioning fairly complex platformers with large maps, upgrades, neat plots, and tons of systems, as opposed to a point and click adventure interface (something that could be seen as far back as the 80s), or what they want to do now which is some RPG mess. Stop making this comparison.
I agree with Demon's Crust. There have been plenty of amazing independent games, albums, novels etc. that have been produced by one or two dudes in a basement. Take one of the most beloved indie games of all time, Cave Story. Not only was this game made by one guy with no funding, it was also initially released for free as well. There have been plenty of better games made with less funding in a shorter period of time.
- Aug 28, 2018
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The original and its many patches are actually still free, the console/steam re-releases with new features aren't, which is fine honestly. It's one of the games I replay every now and then, I'm happy that Pixel made it big.
Publishing a deadline is one thing, but I dearly hope they have the planning capabilities to at least be able to handle internal deadlines.
You guys are both right on this one and probably that was exactly the line of thinking that lead this team to originally try to make this game as they were.
But you are all missing one crucial detail: in every example you brought up, the developer had prior experience.
Matt's own profile says that he worked in the industry for 4 years before he started creating A Robot Named Fight, and Pixel already released a game 4 years before Cave Story, so he had experience by that time as well. Similarly, the creator of Axiom Verge (released in 2015) already worked on games back in 2011.
LoK's team had absolutely no experience and if they first set out to get that 4 years of practice we see in these cases, then this project would start in 2021.
Yeah, they made several major mistakes. There is no argument there. But it seems very likely, that the train of thought that led them to this mistake in particular is something you both share with them. So criticize at your own discretion.
- Aug 28, 2018
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Getting started in 2021 is not the same as getting finished in 2021. All the other examples had 4 years of practice before they started, so for the comparison to be fair, we'd have to wait to use it until mid 2021. And since we are talking about games that took at least 2 years to get finished, this specific angle of criticism won't be valid until somewhere around 2023. And i think that we can agree that by that point this project will most likely be either finished or dropped.
- Aug 28, 2018
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That was a joke but okay, either way it doesn't take you 4 years of experience to sit back and before digging a hole figuring out some kind of goal for it. How deep, how complex, etc. Also if we're following this train of thought, the team lead of this project had previous experience too, at EA allegedly. It's safe to say Kuja probably had experience drawing before this began, and literally everyone's had experience writing. So...
Sorry, it's just a bit difficult to notice jokes in plain text.
And again, it seems like you are mostly right, with one exception: They hired two experienced guys when they announced the restart. Gizmo, the programmer, who apparently worked at EA and Archie, a new animator who is quite active with his streams. They are only part of the team since august and not since the start of the project. That was kind of the point in all this restart. Plus they also brought back Vlad to the team if i understood correctly, but you can ask him about that if he shows up again.
It really didn't take them 4 years to figure out that they made a mistake, it took them 2 (still a bit too much, but what can we do now?). Kuja really had experience in drawing, and i think the art was good. They also had experience writing, as you said, and the dialogue also seemed just fine. At least i liked it. So, yeah, in the areas where they had experience, the team did well, you are correct when you point that out.
- Jun 8, 2017
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I just want to say I agree with both sides to a degree on this topic.
Deadlines can be good but let me say its better to have a rough deadline for now and not put pressure on themselves, if they hit the demo out of the park they can start setting up soft deadlines with some milestone goals and hopefully get most of those done in time.
At the moment, making a detailed deadline and then not keeping it would probably mean 50% of the supporters they have left by now would jump ship immediately. On the other hand, with just saying "sometime in December" they can make sure they have room and people wont immediately gtfo if they are 1 week or 2 later than they thought.
So from their POV it makes sense.
On the other hand, yes, considering they have so much expeirence on their team now I expect a clearn release schedule, as well as regular and reliable updates with a decent amount of content after they established their foundation with the demo. Anything else would just prove that not much has changed from before.
Deadlines can be good but let me say its better to have a rough deadline for now and not put pressure on themselves, if they hit the demo out of the park they can start setting up soft deadlines with some milestone goals and hopefully get most of those done in time.
At the moment, making a detailed deadline and then not keeping it would probably mean 50% of the supporters they have left by now would jump ship immediately. On the other hand, with just saying "sometime in December" they can make sure they have room and people wont immediately gtfo if they are 1 week or 2 later than they thought.
So from their POV it makes sense.
On the other hand, yes, considering they have so much expeirence on their team now I expect a clearn release schedule, as well as regular and reliable updates with a decent amount of content after they established their foundation with the demo. Anything else would just prove that not much has changed from before.
- Sep 19, 2017
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Apples to oranges. An indie developer announcing a game halfway through its development and the game being incredibly simply designed does not equate to what we're attempting to do here. It takes a long time, because we're putting FAR MORE DETAIL AND QUALITY into our work than "A Robot Named Fight" which is just a 2D platformer.
Just one of our character models with its 8 directions and amount of bones/rigging is infinitely more complex than most of the artwork in that game. You see, there is a vast difference in effort and technical prowess required. I can't expect you to appreciate the complexity of the game we are creating, but surely you can see the difference in quality.
We work 8-10 hours per day doing nothing but developing this game, the models have hundreds of moving parts per angle, this quality will be staggering when it comes together, but until it comes together you have two options, either wait patiently, or wait patiently and support our development. I recommend the latter because it allows us to develop the game faster with more resources.
I agree with the latter, but without a proof of concept, no shekels for you. I'm looking forward to the tech demo, though!
- Aug 28, 2018
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Im not saying I dont appreciate the work that is put into a game and the technical prowess behind it. Obviously some games are more complex than others, I get that. But there are a couple of points you should also try to see from the perspective of the outside (potential) consumer.
1. I can only appreciate things I actually end up experiencing myself. So yeah, when I see it I can appreciate it
2. Does it actually have to be that complicated? I love going for extra detail in animation and game system, but from a business POV you should always ask yourself "how much is too much?" and "what is the purpose of my game and how can I fulfill it in a satisfying but also cost- and time-efficient way?"
Ultimately, the plans you guys have sound good on paper. And I dont think most people disapprove of that. I think most people are just highly cynical of the surrounding circumstances, especially since game development has always been a thing where you can only see the work that has been done once you are able to play the game. I personally dont have any connection to you guys, I dont know you beyond your public faces. I dont know if you are working 10+ hours a day or 3 hours a day. And you telling me you are working that long cant be taken at face value. Im not saying you're lying, mind you. Im just saying I can only see the hard work put into this project and appreciate the technical aspects behind it when it comes out.
How many systems are there? Do you have the foundation for efficient animation-creation beyond the demo? how long will it take to make an animation scene in future updates? How regular will updates be? How much content will they have?
Do you branch out and try to include every system, 10 mini games, 50 backgrounds and 12 routes,leaving the game with a lack of focus and leaving the game to be a "work in progress" for years to come? Or do you focus on the main paths and have a robust animation system that makes it easier and faster to make animations after you build the initial system or made the base animations?
How much writing goes into the game? Again, a content update with 3 CGs/Animations doesnt have to be bad if you have pages upon pages of story content and interesting dialogue/interactions to tide you over to the next update. Sometimes words are sweeter than visuals.
Its a lot of things. I think people are concerned because some of us (not all) know how MUCH work really goes even into simple games. With the vision you have thats a substantial amount of work, and you are starting from scratch with the content. So obviously some people are impatient, others are worried about the quality and quantity, and about reliable updates.
Thats why many are holding out on (monetary) support for now and see how it goes.
But - as you can see - discussions are still ongoing here. So its not like we are not interested in the game. Just doubtful.
Which I am sorry for, but based on the experiences I made with this project I think I have my right to be careful and skeptical until I see the Demo and a few updates after that.
^^^^^^
Some simple text variations, with some simple shifts in character expressions, can go a LONG way to enticing the player.
- Oct 23, 2017
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But do you really expect more beside "Let me stick my lizard dick in your ass"
I could do that in an afternoon.
- Jun 8, 2017
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Well yes I do. There is nuance to everything.
Go out there and read some good fanfictions. And I mean GOOD ONES, not the bullshit you have to sift through to find them. But there are some really good ones. Well written. Story setup, immersion, suspension of disbelief, dialogue responses, character types. If everything is right a fluff piece can envolve into something really good.
Its not a masterpiece, I get it, but porn can be more than just "let me stick my dick in it", Ive seen it, Ive read it. There is a difference in level of abilitiy when it comes to content. And even non-h-content can be interesting to keep you as a player interested and busy while nothing else is happening.
And they had some decent writing before. Not in all the places, but certainly in some. So I think they can do it if they want to. Its just that if you have updates which are low on h-content the writing should make up for it and vice versa. Cause technically the writer - since he is not working on the animation or programming or art - should have the time to develop these storylines in-between sex scenes. And its not like you need any other pieces for it. As long as you have the characters, base animations and background you can basically put any story and dialogue into text that you want, there are few contraints in that regard. I get you need time to be creative. But for some scenes you need more creativity than for others. And setting up important scenes the right way is already a really good thing. So there is definitely room to keep people busy if cg content is low here and there. Thats all I was saying with that.
Go out there and read some good fanfictions. And I mean GOOD ONES, not the bullshit you have to sift through to find them. But there are some really good ones. Well written. Story setup, immersion, suspension of disbelief, dialogue responses, character types. If everything is right a fluff piece can envolve into something really good.
Its not a masterpiece, I get it, but porn can be more than just "let me stick my dick in it", Ive seen it, Ive read it. There is a difference in level of abilitiy when it comes to content. And even non-h-content can be interesting to keep you as a player interested and busy while nothing else is happening.
And they had some decent writing before. Not in all the places, but certainly in some. So I think they can do it if they want to. Its just that if you have updates which are low on h-content the writing should make up for it and vice versa. Cause technically the writer - since he is not working on the animation or programming or art - should have the time to develop these storylines in-between sex scenes. And its not like you need any other pieces for it. As long as you have the characters, base animations and background you can basically put any story and dialogue into text that you want, there are few contraints in that regard. I get you need time to be creative. But for some scenes you need more creativity than for others. And setting up important scenes the right way is already a really good thing. So there is definitely room to keep people busy if cg content is low here and there. Thats all I was saying with that.