- Thread starter Alexander Krisnov
- Start date
- Jul 31, 2017
- 131
- 77
Given the time you take to create your game, and having to start a second game on the same theme as the first without having finished it, we may actually think that you need the help of someone one more professional than you, in case your procrastination is not just a desire to earn money easily longer ...
Damn I never saw so many "developer experts" in a thread like here ... Could someone explain me why they have to justify their actions on this side? The only place where they have to is on the patreon page/ discord. 
- Aug 28, 2018
- 2,004
- 4,035
Oh hey it's another gatekeep, I was gonna stay out of this until the November demo came out in 2077 but I hate posts like this.Damn I never saw so many "developer experts" in a thread like here ... Could someone explain me why they have to justify their actions on this side? The only place where they have to is on the patreon page/ discord.
1. The Patreon interface is fugly and hard to look at, people like a dark themed organised forum more. It's incredibly hard on my eye so if I can contact artists and devs I support in other ways I'll try to.
2. Discord's a garbage program that dies every other week for several hours. Forum's better and there's less shitty memes, if the devs frequent here that's good. I support Third Crisis but I mostly talk on this forum or trello because Patreon hurts.
3. If you don't have the mental fortitude to keep radio silence and let your actions tell the story and have to keep coming back to drop excuses in what people consider a "pirate" forum then that's a red flag ain't it? Why do they keep justifying it? Lack of confidence in your work is questionable.
4. The implication that you have to give anyone money to judge their art, or be a AAA developer is asinine. That's not how the world works, stop pushing this narrative.
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content.
Log in or register now.
2. Again your personal opinion (never died for me)
3. Something they do to inform the people here should be a red flag? How about be fucking glad that they tell you on a website which consider "pirate" which is kinda hard to say for a public game
4. Tell me which right you have to know about the development status of the game if you are not paying for it? And you are telling that the world doesn´t work like that? You get art from every owner/artist for free?
- Aug 28, 2018
- 2,004
- 4,035
1. Yeah it is, and it's why I talk elsewhere. I dunno what you're getting at, it's why I don't post on Patreon which you said should be the only place people post... people with free will do what they like. That a problem?
2. This one's a good one "didn't happen to me, never happens" and yet Discord goes down every other week but I guess you're not around to see it. There's a looong history of it going down, in fact it was down last night it seems, here ya go:
You must be registered to see the links
You can even see a little page with dates and stuff that details each time outages were reported. But that's just my opinion I guess.3. They don't have to do it, but they do. Your question was why they have to justify their actions here, why do they? I'm just speculating given their history of excuses and the fact that they keep making them. Lol. Did you just contradict your own initial post? Are you okay?
4. Is everything you say self-defeating? I can watch gameplay of God of War and decide it was too much walk-n'-talk and the combat was clunky and talk about it with people. I can also decide not to buy a game based on articles or reviews, this is second-hand knowledge as well. In other words I can be informed on a topic without being an expert on it or having bought into it. When I buy a commission I expect that to remain private unless I feel like posting it, this is a public game. I don't have the right to know about private development but I am being let know about it, they post about it off their own free will and therefore I am able to speak on it off my own free will. Your statement was against people complaining, but you defeated it with your third point, and went on to contradict yourself again again with your fourth. Good god, man.
Please continue.
Last edited:
- Jan 29, 2019
- 167
- 461
Finally someone said it, thank you!
The idea of "if you don't pay, you have no right in critisizing it" is just so daffy. Especially on the Internet of all places!
And to be honest, after Anthem's piss poor management during its development, some AAA dev-s should as well think about publishing their development progress from time-to-time because Bioware lost all credibility after Anthem and Andromeda laughable launches.
Some companies already do that - look at CD Project Red, releasing their WIPs into the crowd, taking feedback and implementing it. Does it work against them? Hell no! CDPR right now is one of if not the most intrusted gaming companies out there. So why not make the same little "marketing" steps to advertise your project and your team some more? Especially when you crowdfund it all the way.
- Sep 19, 2017
- 222
- 474
Calling "Just do it faster" constructive criticism is a bit of a stretch. I'm all for actual feedback when we develop a product, good, bad, whatever, but this is more or less just bashing my team repeatedly for things the people here know little about.
I only come on here really to give the occasional update to those here that actually care, I don't enjoy seeing people stating the obvious. Yes. Animation takes a while and our animator had some major real life problems to deal with. Animation takes even longer when you have numerous angles/poses to rig and animate for separately.
I apologize for the long development time, I really do, but there's nothing that can really be done about it in this stage. All that is left is animations, and they unfortunately take the longest.
I only come on here really to give the occasional update to those here that actually care, I don't enjoy seeing people stating the obvious. Yes. Animation takes a while and our animator had some major real life problems to deal with. Animation takes even longer when you have numerous angles/poses to rig and animate for separately.
I apologize for the long development time, I really do, but there's nothing that can really be done about it in this stage. All that is left is animations, and they unfortunately take the longest.
- No one.
Well, myself, asking a question as an introduction. I am entering here on "soft behalf" of the LOK team. I am not paid by or otherwise compensated by them as is. But as a fellow NSFW game dev and a friendo to the project, I would like to dip in and help with MightyAltroll. I do have some privileged knowledge from when MightyATroll bounces ideas off of me and chats about writing with me.
A little more about me and why the heck I would have any input or ability here... as some of you might know I work on Price For Freedom, as the lead writer and a game designer on Price for Freedom. I started game development as a 3D Modeller actually and slowly got roped into programming and writing due to sheer incompetence of my first project leads when doing shitty iOS games. I moved on to do ghostwriting on a few projects (AA Kickstarter releases and a AAA game) that I met through industry friends I've had. You may see my writing credit on a few adult games here and there recently! I have seen the lowest of the lows in game development. I've also seen soem incredible adrenaline rushes!
Unfortunately PR in these indie and small projects often gets passed onto us writers, like MightyATroll. Fortunately for myself I enjoy dealing with people and have plenty of experience dealing with people who used to try and kill my while trying to interact with them, so unlike a lot of these writers... I am sort of prepared to deal with push back haha. Lets get into this.
Hahaha. I've seen MightAtroll post lewd furry pictures (To me in my DM's even!) and I scratched my head on this. I asked him and he is one of the guys who "isn't a part of the fanbase." But he likes anthro furry art, smexual and otherwise... basically a closet furry haha. Not to worry, he's a damn furry just doesn't wanna put the label on himself haha. Kind of like my boss Arbuz Budesh over her in Team Dead Deer.
That's a fair decision and I don't think anyone on the LOK disagrees with this notion. Many of us enjoyed the old game in it's classic spunky (hah), bouncey (haaaah!), and plucky (eh?) playshapes way of doing things. I actually preferred the older Krystal head to the new one, and I hecking loved the direction of CG art they were doing. That Cenvir scene where Krystal rode him and it went to the animated CG... mwuah. So much of that concept art was just heckin hot haha.
But if this team was able to do that once before, I think for sure they'll surprise you with what they're working on again. They had the ability in spades to deliver something pretty hecking hot with much weaker technology. Unfortunately, they can't spend more time on remodelling Krystal as they actually listened quite well to fans and changed all sorts of proportions on the model. Heck the body is vastly superior in almost every way. I just preferred the way Krystal's head and face was before personally. I still like the new one though. Personal taste is something you can't argue against, but it was awesome you supported them for so long! They more than definitely value your contribution to this day, and your input is just as invaluable.
I hope you'll love what they're going to reveal soon. I have been pretty pleasantly surprised and I can't wait to see your response to it!
Howdy there! Let me field this for ya.
Snails Pace & Professional Help
So essentially the team at LOK was using a very amature programmer, the code of the old game was getting taxed to its limits and they were making it like a playshapes game. That wasn't going to work well. They came to a point when hiring the new programmer where they decided whether they would redo all the code, try and clean up the code, or start fresh now that they had a competent programmer.
Either way the old way they did the programming as at its absolute limits and you could tell. The game was not running particularly well and as a game there wasn't much they could really do. Maybe set up some "adventure quest" combat and more basic dialogues. So why not start something that is an actual game? That is what they did. They hired professional help and they are moving towards a KrystalOTOR experience. Which is pretty cool!
Actually not very. Despite being incredibly expansive and a great experience, KOTOR is a relatively simple game when it comes to mechanics. One they finish the core architecture modules they need, the only thing to hold them up will honestly be art assets and writing.
Procrastination & Patreon
Oh gosh... I have some personal experience with this for sure. You may know my project, Prife For Freedom: Avarice. We announced a large update for September of last year, and we just managed to push it live on the 1st of this month. Some people in our F95 thread accused us of sitting on our asses and raking in "phat stacks" of cash. While this is true of SOME projects here and there, it's not true of PFF for the same reasons it's not true for LOK.
Using projections back in 2019 for PFF we were supposed to be at about $6000 of funding by now. But that lull, that gap in the updates... that actually held us down to $3300, we lost a lot of money because of that delay. I won't go into why the delay happened (unless you're curious), but delays and sitting on your ass like this actually hurts the vast majority of Patreon projects. Very few can just ride out no updates and such. Procrastination doesn't serve you well when making games on Patreon in general.
I agree actually, it's an odd fallacy. But when you look at it, CDPR is a cool company and all but they get off scot-free for quite a few issues. This is a bit off-topic but, Witcher 3 had a buggier launch than even Andromeda. It was up there with a Bethesda game. CDPR is just generally immune to criticism, and when someone does criticize CDPR they get fucking lead to the wall outback in a blindfold for a 24 hour beat down by 2 foot long dildos. And a huge difference is that CDPR has a massive press marketing team that us little crowdfunding teams just don't have. We don't know what is or isn't proper to a teaser with and a lot of the time if you release the wrong thing it's just wasted effort as you end up doing more harm than good by advertising wrong.
You can miss the "golden hour" or over saturate followers with unnecessary information. The LOK has released a Trello which is about as good as you can do for a crowdfunded game. Personally I don't actually think showing Trello's are good, and I really disagree with road maps in general. So while you're right that definitely some information needs to be delivered to you guys about LOK... it has to be the right information in the correct way and space. Maybe the team will have to sit down after their first demo and consider your words! Thanks for the suggestions though. I'll carry them over to them too.
Now onto why I offered to come here and help out.
Hey there 156_163_146_167,pouet (sorry to tag you twice), I'm here to try and carry a calmer voice into the situation and offer an explanation.
A lot of these indie projects us writers get pulled into the PR situation. That doesn't really prepare a person to deal with criticism or how to deal with hard-hitting questions. MightyATroll definitely didn't carry himself the best in that response and I told him that. But you do have to understand F95 is a really odd place to deal with even if a person has a background in handling community relations or customer service etc. Some people don't realize that even on a forum where the majority of people want to essentially steal your hard work, that you need to still stay professional.
And that can be frustrating to some people. F95 can get really demanding. Heck, over on U18 a guy actually verbally went after me when he demanded me to give him the patreon code and I went "Haha, well you will have to wait for someone else to share it, unfortunately." He went ham and went at me for that.
A lot of people would flip out on the guy for that, but I've had a lot of experience in dealing with hostile people. Kind of put yourself in MightAlTolls name (I really don't like typing that name...) if you'll humour me for a minute. You're in an environment where people who are likely swiping anything you make for free are being a little combative. It's easy to make a mistake and not be professional in that situation.
MightyAlTroll is a pretty good guy, but this isn't his sphere tbh. I hope you can give him a little leeway here and forgive him.
Going Forward
If anyone here has any questions I can help with, I certainly will do my best. Though I have a bunch of privileged knowledge, I honestly can't release anything that hasn't been publicly like I can over in our thread, but I can try and help as much as I can. Just doing my part for a team I really think could go places!
- Jan 29, 2019
- 167
- 461
I agree, "Do it faster" is not a criticism at all - its just frustration said out loud. And I didn't really mean such types of comments.
All I can advice in such a situation is to just ignore such "feedback". People who know a thing or two in development understand 2 things: making game is hard and it takes a lot of time. But there are people who don't know how pipeline looks, nor how its done at all. Since you can't share your actuall developing expirience you should choose to try and explain them how its done, or ignore such outbursts, but I digress.
There are people throughout the entire site (not just this project) who come here and all of a suddenly declare that if you dont support project monetarily, then your thoughts, opinions and overall ability to comment on the state of things is non-existant. Absolutely forgetting that they are on the Internet and people are allowed to say whatever shit they want. By now it's become ridiculous.
First of all, thank you for your time typing all of that.
I can see a lot of thought put into that in a serious manner and I respect that.
About the Witcher3. Maybe it was only my expirience with the game then - I bought and played it right away when it came out and it was smooth as hell, nowhere close to Bethesda. Maybe I was just lucky, who knows.
About the AITroll. We can all understand that we are all human beings and we can act unreasonable, but we can also understand that if we do so, maybe we should restrain ourselves and let someone else do the job. I've already said that before - project as if right now has a lot of collaborators and mods and some of them have a very good way of talking - let them handle the "PR" instead. I'm pretty sure people would be glad to help, since a lot of them sitting in discord have almost to a fanatical love towards the project (which I can undertstand).
But shit like that doesn't help anyone:
But anyway.
Thank you Valaska for your answers one more time.
I really hope to see this level of reaction and formualtion in the future.
I understand that now. It's just that some other community managers (if you can even call it that at this point) in this forum are handling it so much better in comparison. Take a look at the threads for Future Fragments, Kincaid, or Dungeons of Desire for example. One of the devs of those games can frequently be seen in those threads, and they do their job quite well. Especially HentaiWriter of Future Fragments.
And one thing (that you probably already know) is that this forum is filled with potential customers. Sure, a lot of people only download a pirated version of the game and leave it at that, but some people, myself included, will pay for the game if they like it enough. And a community manager that's not acting professionally or outright trolly can be really off-putting.
My complaints about this game isn't so much the slow pace of development. I can understand that as a programmer myself. But what I really dislike is lack of clarity and transparency. Why do people have to wait for anything to play at all for such a long time. In my opinion you can compile what you have already done and release that as a teaser of sorts. This allows the players and maybe even potential paying customers to voice their opinion on what's already done and what can still be changed. It also gives the players a good indication of what's done and not done in a very tangible form.
I think I've said this before, but I think that the LoK team should look into things like time boxing, agile development, and things like that. Right now it seems as if they have a whole lot planned out from the start and are taking whatever time it takes to make that instead of planning smaller things, creating them, and then receiving feedback.
Sheesh. Looks like I won't be joining the Discord any time soon with people like that. Just put everyone on the same pile as mark us all as people that just like to bash things, why don't you. How close minded of them.But shit like that doesn't help anyone:
- Sep 19, 2017
- 222
- 474
Yes, HentaiWriter is an amazing person whom I enjoy talking to, Valaska is also a great person, and both have far more patience and eloquence when dealing with certain people than I, unfortunately. It makes me not want to come here and talk to people who aren't excited about the game, but just want to complain. I'm not even saying their complaints aren't valid, either, but it's excessive and at this point, unhelpful to everyone.
So you choose whether not to support a game based upon the merits and intents of the game itself, but rather the personal attitude of a dev towards you? I don't really agree with this stance, but it's your money.
The very first announcements I made in here came under fire for the most utterly ridiculous of reasons. I stated that I wanted to make a good game, and suddenly everyone went off about how it needs to be a porn game not a game with porn. Sort of bleeds my excitement dry to talk about the game here.
We have a
You must be registered to see the links
. I speak to everyone daily within the Discord and explain our intents. I answer the questions of anyone who asks. We try to post regular updates on the Patreon. I even come on here even though I don't want to and it doesn't particularly benefit me to do so. There is nothing to do in the demo at the moment as the quests are being finalized and the animations aren't done. I have stated this many. Many. Many times in this very thread and extremely recently, at that.We have a small tech demo planned, and set backs occurred with our animator. We are waiting for animations.
This is my experience with this particular forum. There are some very nice people who legitimately wish to support us. Then there are people that complain for the sake of complaining and have no interest in supporting us, but desire some form of instantaneous gratification. I have people who send me suggestions and ideas all the time in the discord, who ask me questions, but here I almost never see such interest or involvement.
I am not an EA representative, I have said this before. I wish I was so that I could lie through a smile and turn all of the complaints into positive notes. I don't typically care to watch my words and I speak in a plain manner to people, as a person. People are free to DM me, @ me, email me, or anything whenever they want, and I'll gladly take the time to read and respond because I like connecting with people who also have an interest in this project, and hearing their concerns. I inherited this project from Abelius, and this is my story that we are producing. My writings, my characters. I have a substantial level of connection to them and I want to see the game made well. So yes, I get a little worked up sometimes.
I shall explain this once more, for those that may have missed it:
Our animator recently suffered a personal tragedy, at the worst possible time, while our other animator was on his way to another country. This, in addition with the fact that the model is extremely complex, and we had to throw our work out the window not once, but **twice** due to community feedback on the model, means that we have been delayed by 3-4 months. While our animator may be working somewhat slowly, the delays were unpredictable. However development has been steady in every other category. The coding has been progressing, plot/lore has been progressing, environment has been progressing, and art has been progressing. It is simply a matter of time until our animator catches up with the backlogged work and we can release a demo, **with** a head start into the main game's development.
I am deeply sorry about the delays. But I ask that everyone have patience. The game will be made.
And as a final note: Stating that you're not going to join the discord, while also talking about the lack of transparency is something I do not quite understand. Forgive me, but is it not odd that you would willingly ignore the largest and easiest source of information about the project, while also making it seem like we're not giving you the option to acquire information? Why not just join the discord, and ask something?
We are making it on Unity.
Last edited:
- Jun 8, 2017
- 26
- 13
For the past 3 months there has been very little if any good criticism for the devs to follow from this thread, its been mostly whining and hate. A lot of us have grown sick of it on here, legitimate questions and concerns from people trying to play the old version are often getting drown out and good criticism is getting swallowed in the flood of circlejeck hate-fest in this thread. So excuse us for being a little "close-minded" when all we find here is nothing but vile drivel and whining.
We see how its affecting the devs and killing their motivation if not hurting their sanity, which will no doubt hurt the game in various ways. So I myself atleast am trying to get them to ignore this thread so they can focus on the game instead of reading and responding to all of the hateful vile misinformation being spread throughout this thread.
- Jan 29, 2019
- 167
- 461
Everything that just being said comes out of 2 facts:
1. There has been nothing for 5 months already. No game, no gameplay, no demo;
2. f95 is not a place that is focused on hyping the game for developer;
What kind of positive criticism do you want to have when you have nothing to critique?
People cant be excited when there is no visual representation about what they have to be excited about.
What do people ussually critique? Story, gameplay loop, dialogue, music, combat and for h-games sex scenes and corruption progress. There is none of that right now, because for 5 months there was nothing.
What do you have? Krystal's 360 turnaround - people here have voiced their thoughts about it - some positive, some negative, some neutral, the entire spectrum.
You've done some mechanics that you showed in the video, but they are bare bones without the meat nor substance, so why would people rate it in any way when its not done yet?
Animations are being made, but currently they are wips and saying anything about them wont make sense as well.
Maybe you want healthy critique in another field? Like plot?
Well, from my personal expirience everything has already been said and discussed in discord in the first few weeks of the project. MightyAITroll also showed no interest in changing his view of the plot nor how it should go or develop - he has a clear vision of his own, so that aspect of critique is out of the window.
New ideas and stuff? You have an entire batallion of people in the discord who already do that for you. I personally don't bother doing that no longer, because you have TONS of additional material like different comics, illustrations and previous LOK games that you can use for inspiration - just that would be enough for a few games already.
Dialogue? We have no idea how your dialogue is going to be like, but from the previous version, that you helped creating, people can say that you know your stuff and others dont really have to worry about it.
Maybe art critiques? Well, as far as Im aware of, Kuja's art is considered to be one of the greatest parts of the project and people are more than fine with it. From my personal expirience as an artist, Kuja can improve in some anatomy from time-to-time and I personally gave him feedback in dms when I saw where he could improve. But after the revamp came, discord server started to have tons more artists there on daily basis and I simply stopped feeling myself even needed or heard by that point, so I quitted that. Kuja's doing fine without me or anyone else from here.
So what do you want people to talk about? About the hype itself? All you want to hear here how they are excited to have in the future a game that is bigger, more complicated, with different designs in mind? Knowing that the last few months of the previous builds were a little bit unsatisfying?
You should make separation of your knowledge of the project and knowledge of random people who haven't seen what kind of future project has in your head. They simply can't know this. They can't share your excitement, because they can't expirience your thoughts. Even with all the info provided they can't make the final picture of the product. Hell, I can't make the final picture, because one time I was told one thing, but later on I'm told another thing that contradicts it. Also the way you designed your new view of the game is as you said "unique, nobody has done it before", so there is nothing to base the expectations off. Which only adds to the "questionable" part of the waiting. With that said I periodically visit discord for the news and I consider myself to be knowledgeable about the project (at least as far as a peasant in your ranks can be knowledgeable) and even with all of my knowledge I am still not sure what to make of it.
I also think that you make wrong assumptions about f95 as it's reason to exist.
F95 is not your place for developer inspirations, nor is it a platform to just praise games or give your ideas to the developers. People discuss projects in all ways here, but they are not inclined to ONLY praise it. But revamp doesn't have any content yet, so people discuss YOU, your management, your team and your project from other sides.
And not so many projects here have actuall developers coming here for feedback or additional ideas to discuss. Yes, some developers do that and I consider such projects to be unique in a way and I praise them for doing this. Managers of the projects like Erolon: Dungeon Bound, Wild Life, Monster Girls Project come to the thread, give updates themselves, answer questions and then take feedback that are given - just absolute legends for me. For them I feel like I can do art-fixes/suggestions, mechanical ideas, plot ideas e.t.c. because they act professional and its a pure joy to communicate with them. I hope that one day I feel the same way with you, but as if right now we are insanely far from it.
With that said I agree that there has been too much negativity in this thread for the last few months, but all this is due to the fact that your project right now is one big enigma. In theory everything sounds good and butterflies, but in reality it's been half a year without anything to play with a few months prior of lackluster updates of a previous version which doesn't help the final picture. Plus people who are lazy to go through 10+ pages of dialogue here appear from time-to-time asking stupid shit that both sides are fed up with, buidling up even more frustration for everyone.
Personally I'm both excited and unexcited at the same time.
I love Kuja's artwork and MightyAITroll's dialogue. I love furry stuff and blue space nymphomaniac Vixen with your kinky dialogue and story. And I can't wait to see what you are going to do with that, knowing that I was in love with the previous iteration of the game.
I am not excited about all the new design choices and complexities you've chosen to stick with. It's now much more complicated project that will require much more time to execute from all points of development and I'm worried whether you will be able to do it. Just saying "We shall manage, don't worry" doesn't inspire me, because as a gamer I've heard the same words from every single developer and only a little bunch of them were able to actually deliver, while others bumped on their asses and failed tremendously. Actions speak louder than words and by now we've been in 5 months wait without anything in the end (and the Feet Wars don't persuade me in your abilities, but rather in the other direction).
Personally, I don't need anything from you as if right now. I'm sure that you work as hard as you can. I know that Archie got hit hard in his New Year and I know that he needed time to come back from that. I dont require any answers nor excuses nor reasons behind what you do. As a game developer myself I understand that you need time to execute your vision and that's pretty much it.
And really I think that you don't need any of this right now - nor f95, nor criticism, nor feedback. You just need to keep on working in peace and that's it, nothing more.
Say what, how about you do what you said? How about you ditch f95 untill the demo is out? Then this entire situation would just not happen. Yes, there will be people coming and asking stupid stuff or claim stupid shit about the team, but its the Internet - it happens all the time with every single project. But at least this way you would save your nerves and health.
There is also a variant, as it was mentioned before, to make someone more stress-resistant to represent you here, if you want keep having your presence here.
I'm more than sure that situation will change once your demo is out.
1. There has been nothing for 5 months already. No game, no gameplay, no demo;
2. f95 is not a place that is focused on hyping the game for developer;
What kind of positive criticism do you want to have when you have nothing to critique?
People cant be excited when there is no visual representation about what they have to be excited about.
What do people ussually critique? Story, gameplay loop, dialogue, music, combat and for h-games sex scenes and corruption progress. There is none of that right now, because for 5 months there was nothing.
What do you have? Krystal's 360 turnaround - people here have voiced their thoughts about it - some positive, some negative, some neutral, the entire spectrum.
You've done some mechanics that you showed in the video, but they are bare bones without the meat nor substance, so why would people rate it in any way when its not done yet?
Animations are being made, but currently they are wips and saying anything about them wont make sense as well.
Maybe you want healthy critique in another field? Like plot?
Well, from my personal expirience everything has already been said and discussed in discord in the first few weeks of the project. MightyAITroll also showed no interest in changing his view of the plot nor how it should go or develop - he has a clear vision of his own, so that aspect of critique is out of the window.
New ideas and stuff? You have an entire batallion of people in the discord who already do that for you. I personally don't bother doing that no longer, because you have TONS of additional material like different comics, illustrations and previous LOK games that you can use for inspiration - just that would be enough for a few games already.
Dialogue? We have no idea how your dialogue is going to be like, but from the previous version, that you helped creating, people can say that you know your stuff and others dont really have to worry about it.
Maybe art critiques? Well, as far as Im aware of, Kuja's art is considered to be one of the greatest parts of the project and people are more than fine with it. From my personal expirience as an artist, Kuja can improve in some anatomy from time-to-time and I personally gave him feedback in dms when I saw where he could improve. But after the revamp came, discord server started to have tons more artists there on daily basis and I simply stopped feeling myself even needed or heard by that point, so I quitted that. Kuja's doing fine without me or anyone else from here.
So what do you want people to talk about? About the hype itself? All you want to hear here how they are excited to have in the future a game that is bigger, more complicated, with different designs in mind? Knowing that the last few months of the previous builds were a little bit unsatisfying?
You should make separation of your knowledge of the project and knowledge of random people who haven't seen what kind of future project has in your head. They simply can't know this. They can't share your excitement, because they can't expirience your thoughts. Even with all the info provided they can't make the final picture of the product. Hell, I can't make the final picture, because one time I was told one thing, but later on I'm told another thing that contradicts it. Also the way you designed your new view of the game is as you said "unique, nobody has done it before", so there is nothing to base the expectations off. Which only adds to the "questionable" part of the waiting. With that said I periodically visit discord for the news and I consider myself to be knowledgeable about the project (at least as far as a peasant in your ranks can be knowledgeable) and even with all of my knowledge I am still not sure what to make of it.
I also think that you make wrong assumptions about f95 as it's reason to exist.
F95 is not your place for developer inspirations, nor is it a platform to just praise games or give your ideas to the developers. People discuss projects in all ways here, but they are not inclined to ONLY praise it. But revamp doesn't have any content yet, so people discuss YOU, your management, your team and your project from other sides.
And not so many projects here have actuall developers coming here for feedback or additional ideas to discuss. Yes, some developers do that and I consider such projects to be unique in a way and I praise them for doing this. Managers of the projects like Erolon: Dungeon Bound, Wild Life, Monster Girls Project come to the thread, give updates themselves, answer questions and then take feedback that are given - just absolute legends for me. For them I feel like I can do art-fixes/suggestions, mechanical ideas, plot ideas e.t.c. because they act professional and its a pure joy to communicate with them. I hope that one day I feel the same way with you, but as if right now we are insanely far from it.
With that said I agree that there has been too much negativity in this thread for the last few months, but all this is due to the fact that your project right now is one big enigma. In theory everything sounds good and butterflies, but in reality it's been half a year without anything to play with a few months prior of lackluster updates of a previous version which doesn't help the final picture. Plus people who are lazy to go through 10+ pages of dialogue here appear from time-to-time asking stupid shit that both sides are fed up with, buidling up even more frustration for everyone.
Personally I'm both excited and unexcited at the same time.
I love Kuja's artwork and MightyAITroll's dialogue. I love furry stuff and blue space nymphomaniac Vixen with your kinky dialogue and story. And I can't wait to see what you are going to do with that, knowing that I was in love with the previous iteration of the game.
I am not excited about all the new design choices and complexities you've chosen to stick with. It's now much more complicated project that will require much more time to execute from all points of development and I'm worried whether you will be able to do it. Just saying "We shall manage, don't worry" doesn't inspire me, because as a gamer I've heard the same words from every single developer and only a little bunch of them were able to actually deliver, while others bumped on their asses and failed tremendously. Actions speak louder than words and by now we've been in 5 months wait without anything in the end (and the Feet Wars don't persuade me in your abilities, but rather in the other direction).
Personally, I don't need anything from you as if right now. I'm sure that you work as hard as you can. I know that Archie got hit hard in his New Year and I know that he needed time to come back from that. I dont require any answers nor excuses nor reasons behind what you do. As a game developer myself I understand that you need time to execute your vision and that's pretty much it.
And really I think that you don't need any of this right now - nor f95, nor criticism, nor feedback. You just need to keep on working in peace and that's it, nothing more.
But the same freaking situation just keeps on repeating itself:
Someone makes a negative comment, whether its bullshit or not. AITroll comes here and answers it, sometimes being frustrated, saying something out of place. Other people then answer the answer with "keks" and "lols" and "how unprofessional". AITRoll then goes to discord and complains about f95 and how everyone sucks here, getting support from others in him complaining. Then one of them comes back here and makes a statement of sorts "You dont pay them anything, thus you are not allowed to say anything either". In the end both sides end up being frustrated and pissed and disappointed in each other.
Someone makes a negative comment, whether its bullshit or not. AITroll comes here and answers it, sometimes being frustrated, saying something out of place. Other people then answer the answer with "keks" and "lols" and "how unprofessional". AITRoll then goes to discord and complains about f95 and how everyone sucks here, getting support from others in him complaining. Then one of them comes back here and makes a statement of sorts "You dont pay them anything, thus you are not allowed to say anything either". In the end both sides end up being frustrated and pissed and disappointed in each other.
Say what, how about you do what you said? How about you ditch f95 untill the demo is out? Then this entire situation would just not happen. Yes, there will be people coming and asking stupid stuff or claim stupid shit about the team, but its the Internet - it happens all the time with every single project. But at least this way you would save your nerves and health.
There is also a variant, as it was mentioned before, to make someone more stress-resistant to represent you here, if you want keep having your presence here.
I'm more than sure that situation will change once your demo is out.
- Dec 9, 2019
- 164
- 269
While I would love to have adult themed(Not just by porn, but themes, topics and problems) RPG game, I doubt there is any chance for that in the near future. Nevertheless if you are developer on something like patreon or other crowd scam... I mean founding platform, then at least by formality you are suppose to listen to the ones who pay for your work.(Though the working of that site are a joke, and in reality people pay for promise of product, not for product itself.) Your personal aspirations and desires can stay in realm of hobby projects. Unless you will find investor/group of investors, who would found the thing you actually want to made or you will be able to found it on your own.
I still wish you luck, I enjoy what you guys made so far, and will follow the project.(Not these strange dramas, you seems to be involved in.)
It seems like something fans of the Witcher saga had to endure with archdick Sapkowski.(Author of the Witcher books)
You may respect someone as an author/dev, while calling him out, out of his work, for how he act as a human.
Insulting your potential clients is never wise business practice.
Really? Mean comments on the web hurt their feeling and sanity? God damn it, you guys probably have easy lives if these are the problems that are driving you insane.
It's not the deciding factor, but at the same time I don't want to reward behaviour that I'm against. And if you did not think your involvement in this thread would have an effect on the game's success, you wouldn't be here to begin with. So showing good behaviour and being professional can only get you your desired result better or more easily, right?
Sure, there is a portion of people that feel that way, but I do not consider myself among them. And if that sort of response is enough to make you want to give up on this forum, then do so
Then why continue to come here? It sounds like it's only taxing you without giving anything in return to you, the team, or the game. What makes you come back here every time?
Right, but there's at least something to show. I trust you haven't been sitting on your asses the entire time.
I consider myself to be part of neither of those groups, so where would you put me? I want the game to succeed. I really do. That's why in the past I've suggested ways to better plan the game and its development. And that's why I'm hammering on the idea of showing something and getting user feedback so much.
Understandably so. What is there to critique? People have voiced their opinion when something here has been shown, like the 360 of Krystal, but apparently that's just hating for the sake of hating, I guess.
Most of those questions and concerned have already been answered elsewhere in this thread since the old version came out, so it makes sense that that gets "drown out". People either get their answer, or are referred to the search bar above to find it themselves. What else do you expect?
So what do you consider good criticism, and what is the flood of circlejerk hate-fest? Where do you draw the line? When does feedback lose its value?
I completely agree that not visiting this thread would do the devs good.
- Apr 4, 2019
- 185
- 302
- Dec 9, 2019
- 164
- 269
Wait a second is this /hgg/ >>>/bunker/ or are you guys from 4reedit?
lol well, he just is a bit stressed out and as he admitted... not great at dealing with people who are challenging their project with no work up yet. He's a really good guy and good at what he does too. As I said earlier, writers get thrust into the PR role for most projects. But that doesn't mean we're prepared for it.
Unity, my good man!
For sure... I'll be trying to step in and I'm talking with MightyAltroll and the team and trying to get him out of a situation that just keeps doing a negativity feedback loop. He feeds the negativity because he's stressed and it will just keep growing. Hopefully, we can get things settled down here and some questions about the project answered, and everything on track to a more habitable situation. I get a lot of people's frustration but yeah the project has evolved and there's no unchambering that round now it's been fired.
I agree, and even if people here won't be customers they have friends and they'll talk with those friends. So you can foster a bad reputation pretty quickly on a large forum like this. Especially with how many people are truly interested in this game here. I hope I can turn this a bit more positive and help out as much as possible. This all reminds me of that lawbreakers guy haha, but in this instance, MightyAlTroll really does mean well, but we all have strong and weak points and dealing with this situation isn't his strongest.
For clarity and transparency, the best they (LOK) can do right now is the Trello, maybe I can talk to them about a sit rep report. But they have addressed why they made the change, I just don't know if it was addressed publicly enough. If people still have questions, then it would appear not. As a programmer, I'm sure you know the stages of game dev, they've stepped well past Design Document and are somewhere between Prototype and Production.
As a small indie team, they're really having to do both. You are seeing production elements while they are still doing prototype. We had the same situation over in TDD where we were still designing the game as we were creating stuff haha. For laymans out there it looks like;
- Ideas & Pipe Dreams
- This is where we ALL were at in high school haha. "Wouldn't it be awesome if there was a game that did X and Y and you could Z, etc. Your high flying ideas and pipe-dream stage.
- Pitch
- Normally to a producer/publisher/investors. But here and now in the new development stage, it often references crowdfunding and to people, like you guys and gals here on F95! We want to sell our dreams and visions to you guys. Things we want to make a reality for you all to experience.
- Concept
- This step can come before or after pitch now with crowdfunding. Back in the past, it meant your pitch was accepted and now you have to decide what the game is. LOK and even our project PFF had to do this before the pitch since we only get one shot typically.
- Game Design Document
- This is an internal document that you will lay out things like game mechanics, gameplay loops, feedback loops, what you want to and can accomplish and how. This is often a stage where reality hits you like a fucking sack of pissed off bricks.
- Prototype
- Creating the core architecture of the game and basic gameplay loops. Demonstrations of things working, functioning, etc. This is what Pre-Alpha actually should be... but companies like CIG have made it sound like it should be a full demo.
- Production
- This is when you start game design, level design, programming your features and content. It's content creation at this stage.
Right now they are doing the best they honestly can by showing the current mechanics and developments as they are laying the core architecture foundation. Things like videos of them;
- using ladders
- moving obstacles
- climbing ledges
- dialogue system
- recruiting companions
- character animations & rigs
- inventory
- trade
The Tech Demo has so little to it that most people got driven off, thinking the project was never going to be more. But to the contrary, it was going to be a huge project with an in-depth storyline etc. It was more ambitious than Price For Freedom was by far! And it's part of why we had to keep out scope so focused and constrained to the rails for PFF. Our demo had to be tight and encompass a ton of our core features.
LOK Team has to be careful about the tech demo, and I hope that helps explain why nothing is up just yet. What they have already though is a framework that's already more expansive than anything they had in LOK Rebirth 1. It's pretty impressive seeing as it's so much more in-depth and an actual game compared to anything we've had on the LOK heritage.
The discord really isn't that bad, to be honest! It has a blend of supportive passionate persons, constructively critical, and then some... not so constructively critical ones. Like one guy who mocked the team when they believed one of their members had succumbed to an attempt of suicide. Mighty is on edge because of this still, so I understand it may be hard but I to appeal some patience and understanding, if possible.
Phantas
Thank you a ton, Phantas! I'm going to field more and more of the conversation here. We need to return this to a more civil state where developers and fans, or even potential customers will be able to communicate in a more direct and positive manner. They'll more than likely have a lot more time to do that once they get through this crunch period they are in.
I totally get where you are personally coming from too. The unknown is a hard thing to put your financial support into. It's a thing of trust, and some people are more willing to trust what the team has shown so far. Others need something more concrete. Neither are wrong, it's all just how we're wired as individuals.
I agree Might should probably take a breather until the demo is out. I am personally just trying to bring things from a hostile tone to a more productive and civil one haha. I thank you and many others in this thread, and I understand some felt attacked by an outburst of emotion. But hey, we're all guilty of those moments in life. Hopefully, we can all forgive and move on here.
I hope we can all move forward towards clarity and understanding between you fans, the developers, and... I don't know where I was going with the third group haha. But yeah. Let's all work together to get what we all want
.More Krystal Porn.