- Sep 19, 2017
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Tell you what. You learn how to use Spine, you rig the models, and you animate them. We'll be glad to accept your professional assistance.
- Thread starter Alexander Krisnov
- Start date
- Jun 21, 2018
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Beauty is subjective though. I for one find Krystal's face in rebirth incredibly charming, and the new one is alright. But maybe it would've been the other way around between the two, had the devs made her with the current new face in rebirth.
At the end of the day MightyAltroll , ya gotta take what you believe in and stick with it. Feedback is good but you can't please everyone, so as much as I'd like everything about Krystal to stay as in rebirth, even the plot and her backstory, I hope there won't be anymore persuasions on changes, otherwise the game will definitely never come out haha. Remember, whatever you had already released, it brought the attention and patreons (I assume?) Best of luck and success to the project!
Real mature response there. Very professionally handled as a community manager of the game.
- Sep 19, 2017
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- Jun 8, 2017
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Dude just wait for the release.
Its not like you are paying them any money right now.
If they release the demo and then the first update, and things looks like they are making barely any progress, then you can bash them and move on with you life, cause thats basically what most people here are waiting for. The question on our minds right now is, is it worth supporting again at some point. And the next releases - no matter when they come out - will show us what to expect.
Comparing what the rest of the devs seemed to have done on Trello it seems like animations are very far back. Now animator had some troubles, thats unlucky, esp. considering the guy was one of the new people who was supposed to make stuff go faster and better. Lets hope one interruption doesn't lead into the next, thats the main thing. I can understand people having trouble delivering for personal or family reasons. Happened to me before. But when I gotta deliver my exam paper a second chance is all I get, and that's when Im super lucky. Normally its just "deliver or fail". And Id like to think at the very least the patrons - maybe we over here have no right to criticize - but at least the patrons deserve not being put back more than one time. So lets hope it stays at that and the rest of the team can help them catch up with the animations.
I don't see what that has to do with my opinion about their community manager, but okay.
- Jul 31, 2017
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Given the time you take to create your game, and having to start a second game on the same theme as the first without having finished it, we may actually think that you need the help of someone one more professional than you, in case your procrastination is not just a desire to earn money easily longer ...
Damn I never saw so many "developer experts" in a thread like here ... Could someone explain me why they have to justify their actions on this side? The only place where they have to is on the patreon page/ discord. 
- Aug 28, 2018
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Oh hey it's another gatekeep, I was gonna stay out of this until the November demo came out in 2077 but I hate posts like this.Damn I never saw so many "developer experts" in a thread like here ... Could someone explain me why they have to justify their actions on this side? The only place where they have to is on the patreon page/ discord.
1. The Patreon interface is fugly and hard to look at, people like a dark themed organised forum more. It's incredibly hard on my eye so if I can contact artists and devs I support in other ways I'll try to.
2. Discord's a garbage program that dies every other week for several hours. Forum's better and there's less shitty memes, if the devs frequent here that's good. I support Third Crisis but I mostly talk on this forum or trello because Patreon hurts.
3. If you don't have the mental fortitude to keep radio silence and let your actions tell the story and have to keep coming back to drop excuses in what people consider a "pirate" forum then that's a red flag ain't it? Why do they keep justifying it? Lack of confidence in your work is questionable.
4. The implication that you have to give anyone money to judge their art, or be a AAA developer is asinine. That's not how the world works, stop pushing this narrative.
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2. Again your personal opinion (never died for me)
3. Something they do to inform the people here should be a red flag? How about be fucking glad that they tell you on a website which consider "pirate" which is kinda hard to say for a public game
4. Tell me which right you have to know about the development status of the game if you are not paying for it? And you are telling that the world doesn´t work like that? You get art from every owner/artist for free?
- Aug 28, 2018
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1. Yeah it is, and it's why I talk elsewhere. I dunno what you're getting at, it's why I don't post on Patreon which you said should be the only place people post... people with free will do what they like. That a problem?
2. This one's a good one "didn't happen to me, never happens" and yet Discord goes down every other week but I guess you're not around to see it. There's a looong history of it going down, in fact it was down last night it seems, here ya go:
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You can even see a little page with dates and stuff that details each time outages were reported. But that's just my opinion I guess.3. They don't have to do it, but they do. Your question was why they have to justify their actions here, why do they? I'm just speculating given their history of excuses and the fact that they keep making them. Lol. Did you just contradict your own initial post? Are you okay?
4. Is everything you say self-defeating? I can watch gameplay of God of War and decide it was too much walk-n'-talk and the combat was clunky and talk about it with people. I can also decide not to buy a game based on articles or reviews, this is second-hand knowledge as well. In other words I can be informed on a topic without being an expert on it or having bought into it. When I buy a commission I expect that to remain private unless I feel like posting it, this is a public game. I don't have the right to know about private development but I am being let know about it, they post about it off their own free will and therefore I am able to speak on it off my own free will. Your statement was against people complaining, but you defeated it with your third point, and went on to contradict yourself again again with your fourth. Good god, man.
Please continue.
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- Jan 29, 2019
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Finally someone said it, thank you!
The idea of "if you don't pay, you have no right in critisizing it" is just so daffy. Especially on the Internet of all places!
And to be honest, after Anthem's piss poor management during its development, some AAA dev-s should as well think about publishing their development progress from time-to-time because Bioware lost all credibility after Anthem and Andromeda laughable launches.
Some companies already do that - look at CD Project Red, releasing their WIPs into the crowd, taking feedback and implementing it. Does it work against them? Hell no! CDPR right now is one of if not the most intrusted gaming companies out there. So why not make the same little "marketing" steps to advertise your project and your team some more? Especially when you crowdfund it all the way.
- Sep 19, 2017
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Calling "Just do it faster" constructive criticism is a bit of a stretch. I'm all for actual feedback when we develop a product, good, bad, whatever, but this is more or less just bashing my team repeatedly for things the people here know little about.
I only come on here really to give the occasional update to those here that actually care, I don't enjoy seeing people stating the obvious. Yes. Animation takes a while and our animator had some major real life problems to deal with. Animation takes even longer when you have numerous angles/poses to rig and animate for separately.
I apologize for the long development time, I really do, but there's nothing that can really be done about it in this stage. All that is left is animations, and they unfortunately take the longest.
I only come on here really to give the occasional update to those here that actually care, I don't enjoy seeing people stating the obvious. Yes. Animation takes a while and our animator had some major real life problems to deal with. Animation takes even longer when you have numerous angles/poses to rig and animate for separately.
I apologize for the long development time, I really do, but there's nothing that can really be done about it in this stage. All that is left is animations, and they unfortunately take the longest.
- No one.
Well, myself, asking a question as an introduction. I am entering here on "soft behalf" of the LOK team. I am not paid by or otherwise compensated by them as is. But as a fellow NSFW game dev and a friendo to the project, I would like to dip in and help with MightyAltroll. I do have some privileged knowledge from when MightyATroll bounces ideas off of me and chats about writing with me.
A little more about me and why the heck I would have any input or ability here... as some of you might know I work on Price For Freedom, as the lead writer and a game designer on Price for Freedom. I started game development as a 3D Modeller actually and slowly got roped into programming and writing due to sheer incompetence of my first project leads when doing shitty iOS games. I moved on to do ghostwriting on a few projects (AA Kickstarter releases and a AAA game) that I met through industry friends I've had. You may see my writing credit on a few adult games here and there recently! I have seen the lowest of the lows in game development. I've also seen soem incredible adrenaline rushes!
Unfortunately PR in these indie and small projects often gets passed onto us writers, like MightyATroll. Fortunately for myself I enjoy dealing with people and have plenty of experience dealing with people who used to try and kill my while trying to interact with them, so unlike a lot of these writers... I am sort of prepared to deal with push back haha. Lets get into this.
Hahaha. I've seen MightAtroll post lewd furry pictures (To me in my DM's even!) and I scratched my head on this. I asked him and he is one of the guys who "isn't a part of the fanbase." But he likes anthro furry art, smexual and otherwise... basically a closet furry haha. Not to worry, he's a damn furry just doesn't wanna put the label on himself haha. Kind of like my boss Arbuz Budesh over her in Team Dead Deer.
That's a fair decision and I don't think anyone on the LOK disagrees with this notion. Many of us enjoyed the old game in it's classic spunky (hah), bouncey (haaaah!), and plucky (eh?) playshapes way of doing things. I actually preferred the older Krystal head to the new one, and I hecking loved the direction of CG art they were doing. That Cenvir scene where Krystal rode him and it went to the animated CG... mwuah. So much of that concept art was just heckin hot haha.
But if this team was able to do that once before, I think for sure they'll surprise you with what they're working on again. They had the ability in spades to deliver something pretty hecking hot with much weaker technology. Unfortunately, they can't spend more time on remodelling Krystal as they actually listened quite well to fans and changed all sorts of proportions on the model. Heck the body is vastly superior in almost every way. I just preferred the way Krystal's head and face was before personally. I still like the new one though. Personal taste is something you can't argue against, but it was awesome you supported them for so long! They more than definitely value your contribution to this day, and your input is just as invaluable.
I hope you'll love what they're going to reveal soon. I have been pretty pleasantly surprised and I can't wait to see your response to it!
Howdy there! Let me field this for ya.
Snails Pace & Professional Help
So essentially the team at LOK was using a very amature programmer, the code of the old game was getting taxed to its limits and they were making it like a playshapes game. That wasn't going to work well. They came to a point when hiring the new programmer where they decided whether they would redo all the code, try and clean up the code, or start fresh now that they had a competent programmer.
Either way the old way they did the programming as at its absolute limits and you could tell. The game was not running particularly well and as a game there wasn't much they could really do. Maybe set up some "adventure quest" combat and more basic dialogues. So why not start something that is an actual game? That is what they did. They hired professional help and they are moving towards a KrystalOTOR experience. Which is pretty cool!
Actually not very. Despite being incredibly expansive and a great experience, KOTOR is a relatively simple game when it comes to mechanics. One they finish the core architecture modules they need, the only thing to hold them up will honestly be art assets and writing.
Procrastination & Patreon
Oh gosh... I have some personal experience with this for sure. You may know my project, Prife For Freedom: Avarice. We announced a large update for September of last year, and we just managed to push it live on the 1st of this month. Some people in our F95 thread accused us of sitting on our asses and raking in "phat stacks" of cash. While this is true of SOME projects here and there, it's not true of PFF for the same reasons it's not true for LOK.
Using projections back in 2019 for PFF we were supposed to be at about $6000 of funding by now. But that lull, that gap in the updates... that actually held us down to $3300, we lost a lot of money because of that delay. I won't go into why the delay happened (unless you're curious), but delays and sitting on your ass like this actually hurts the vast majority of Patreon projects. Very few can just ride out no updates and such. Procrastination doesn't serve you well when making games on Patreon in general.
I agree actually, it's an odd fallacy. But when you look at it, CDPR is a cool company and all but they get off scot-free for quite a few issues. This is a bit off-topic but, Witcher 3 had a buggier launch than even Andromeda. It was up there with a Bethesda game. CDPR is just generally immune to criticism, and when someone does criticize CDPR they get fucking lead to the wall outback in a blindfold for a 24 hour beat down by 2 foot long dildos. And a huge difference is that CDPR has a massive press marketing team that us little crowdfunding teams just don't have. We don't know what is or isn't proper to a teaser with and a lot of the time if you release the wrong thing it's just wasted effort as you end up doing more harm than good by advertising wrong.
You can miss the "golden hour" or over saturate followers with unnecessary information. The LOK has released a Trello which is about as good as you can do for a crowdfunded game. Personally I don't actually think showing Trello's are good, and I really disagree with road maps in general. So while you're right that definitely some information needs to be delivered to you guys about LOK... it has to be the right information in the correct way and space. Maybe the team will have to sit down after their first demo and consider your words! Thanks for the suggestions though. I'll carry them over to them too.
Now onto why I offered to come here and help out.
Hey there 156_163_146_167,pouet (sorry to tag you twice), I'm here to try and carry a calmer voice into the situation and offer an explanation.
A lot of these indie projects us writers get pulled into the PR situation. That doesn't really prepare a person to deal with criticism or how to deal with hard-hitting questions. MightyATroll definitely didn't carry himself the best in that response and I told him that. But you do have to understand F95 is a really odd place to deal with even if a person has a background in handling community relations or customer service etc. Some people don't realize that even on a forum where the majority of people want to essentially steal your hard work, that you need to still stay professional.
And that can be frustrating to some people. F95 can get really demanding. Heck, over on U18 a guy actually verbally went after me when he demanded me to give him the patreon code and I went "Haha, well you will have to wait for someone else to share it, unfortunately." He went ham and went at me for that.
A lot of people would flip out on the guy for that, but I've had a lot of experience in dealing with hostile people. Kind of put yourself in MightAlTolls name (I really don't like typing that name...) if you'll humour me for a minute. You're in an environment where people who are likely swiping anything you make for free are being a little combative. It's easy to make a mistake and not be professional in that situation.
MightyAlTroll is a pretty good guy, but this isn't his sphere tbh. I hope you can give him a little leeway here and forgive him.
Going Forward
If anyone here has any questions I can help with, I certainly will do my best. Though I have a bunch of privileged knowledge, I honestly can't release anything that hasn't been publicly like I can over in our thread, but I can try and help as much as I can. Just doing my part for a team I really think could go places!
- Jan 29, 2019
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I agree, "Do it faster" is not a criticism at all - its just frustration said out loud. And I didn't really mean such types of comments.
All I can advice in such a situation is to just ignore such "feedback". People who know a thing or two in development understand 2 things: making game is hard and it takes a lot of time. But there are people who don't know how pipeline looks, nor how its done at all. Since you can't share your actuall developing expirience you should choose to try and explain them how its done, or ignore such outbursts, but I digress.
There are people throughout the entire site (not just this project) who come here and all of a suddenly declare that if you dont support project monetarily, then your thoughts, opinions and overall ability to comment on the state of things is non-existant. Absolutely forgetting that they are on the Internet and people are allowed to say whatever shit they want. By now it's become ridiculous.
First of all, thank you for your time typing all of that.
I can see a lot of thought put into that in a serious manner and I respect that.
About the Witcher3. Maybe it was only my expirience with the game then - I bought and played it right away when it came out and it was smooth as hell, nowhere close to Bethesda. Maybe I was just lucky, who knows.
About the AITroll. We can all understand that we are all human beings and we can act unreasonable, but we can also understand that if we do so, maybe we should restrain ourselves and let someone else do the job. I've already said that before - project as if right now has a lot of collaborators and mods and some of them have a very good way of talking - let them handle the "PR" instead. I'm pretty sure people would be glad to help, since a lot of them sitting in discord have almost to a fanatical love towards the project (which I can undertstand).
But shit like that doesn't help anyone:
But anyway.
Thank you Valaska for your answers one more time.
I really hope to see this level of reaction and formualtion in the future.
I understand that now. It's just that some other community managers (if you can even call it that at this point) in this forum are handling it so much better in comparison. Take a look at the threads for Future Fragments, Kincaid, or Dungeons of Desire for example. One of the devs of those games can frequently be seen in those threads, and they do their job quite well. Especially HentaiWriter of Future Fragments.
And one thing (that you probably already know) is that this forum is filled with potential customers. Sure, a lot of people only download a pirated version of the game and leave it at that, but some people, myself included, will pay for the game if they like it enough. And a community manager that's not acting professionally or outright trolly can be really off-putting.
My complaints about this game isn't so much the slow pace of development. I can understand that as a programmer myself. But what I really dislike is lack of clarity and transparency. Why do people have to wait for anything to play at all for such a long time. In my opinion you can compile what you have already done and release that as a teaser of sorts. This allows the players and maybe even potential paying customers to voice their opinion on what's already done and what can still be changed. It also gives the players a good indication of what's done and not done in a very tangible form.
I think I've said this before, but I think that the LoK team should look into things like time boxing, agile development, and things like that. Right now it seems as if they have a whole lot planned out from the start and are taking whatever time it takes to make that instead of planning smaller things, creating them, and then receiving feedback.
Sheesh. Looks like I won't be joining the Discord any time soon with people like that. Just put everyone on the same pile as mark us all as people that just like to bash things, why don't you. How close minded of them.But shit like that doesn't help anyone:
- Sep 19, 2017
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Yes, HentaiWriter is an amazing person whom I enjoy talking to, Valaska is also a great person, and both have far more patience and eloquence when dealing with certain people than I, unfortunately. It makes me not want to come here and talk to people who aren't excited about the game, but just want to complain. I'm not even saying their complaints aren't valid, either, but it's excessive and at this point, unhelpful to everyone.
So you choose whether not to support a game based upon the merits and intents of the game itself, but rather the personal attitude of a dev towards you? I don't really agree with this stance, but it's your money.
The very first announcements I made in here came under fire for the most utterly ridiculous of reasons. I stated that I wanted to make a good game, and suddenly everyone went off about how it needs to be a porn game not a game with porn. Sort of bleeds my excitement dry to talk about the game here.
We have a
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. I speak to everyone daily within the Discord and explain our intents. I answer the questions of anyone who asks. We try to post regular updates on the Patreon. I even come on here even though I don't want to and it doesn't particularly benefit me to do so. There is nothing to do in the demo at the moment as the quests are being finalized and the animations aren't done. I have stated this many. Many. Many times in this very thread and extremely recently, at that.We have a small tech demo planned, and set backs occurred with our animator. We are waiting for animations.
This is my experience with this particular forum. There are some very nice people who legitimately wish to support us. Then there are people that complain for the sake of complaining and have no interest in supporting us, but desire some form of instantaneous gratification. I have people who send me suggestions and ideas all the time in the discord, who ask me questions, but here I almost never see such interest or involvement.
I am not an EA representative, I have said this before. I wish I was so that I could lie through a smile and turn all of the complaints into positive notes. I don't typically care to watch my words and I speak in a plain manner to people, as a person. People are free to DM me, @ me, email me, or anything whenever they want, and I'll gladly take the time to read and respond because I like connecting with people who also have an interest in this project, and hearing their concerns. I inherited this project from Abelius, and this is my story that we are producing. My writings, my characters. I have a substantial level of connection to them and I want to see the game made well. So yes, I get a little worked up sometimes.
I shall explain this once more, for those that may have missed it:
Our animator recently suffered a personal tragedy, at the worst possible time, while our other animator was on his way to another country. This, in addition with the fact that the model is extremely complex, and we had to throw our work out the window not once, but **twice** due to community feedback on the model, means that we have been delayed by 3-4 months. While our animator may be working somewhat slowly, the delays were unpredictable. However development has been steady in every other category. The coding has been progressing, plot/lore has been progressing, environment has been progressing, and art has been progressing. It is simply a matter of time until our animator catches up with the backlogged work and we can release a demo, **with** a head start into the main game's development.
I am deeply sorry about the delays. But I ask that everyone have patience. The game will be made.
And as a final note: Stating that you're not going to join the discord, while also talking about the lack of transparency is something I do not quite understand. Forgive me, but is it not odd that you would willingly ignore the largest and easiest source of information about the project, while also making it seem like we're not giving you the option to acquire information? Why not just join the discord, and ask something?
We are making it on Unity.
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- Jun 8, 2017
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For the past 3 months there has been very little if any good criticism for the devs to follow from this thread, its been mostly whining and hate. A lot of us have grown sick of it on here, legitimate questions and concerns from people trying to play the old version are often getting drown out and good criticism is getting swallowed in the flood of circlejeck hate-fest in this thread. So excuse us for being a little "close-minded" when all we find here is nothing but vile drivel and whining.
We see how its affecting the devs and killing their motivation if not hurting their sanity, which will no doubt hurt the game in various ways. So I myself atleast am trying to get them to ignore this thread so they can focus on the game instead of reading and responding to all of the hateful vile misinformation being spread throughout this thread.