Ok, let's go through my points and what I meant, because I can see that you overstepped my meanings a little bit.
"ME3 ending war ruined in 15 minutes and Extended End is still the 3 colour choice, Dragon Age 2 setting was the baddest (i still liked the story but it was boring)"
Why do you take ME3 and DA2 as examples? I never said ANYTHING about those specific games. I gave as examples specifically ME2 and DA:Origins, not 3, not 2, not Andromeda, not Inquisition. I gave specifically ME2 and Origins because these EXACT specific games have the best content in terms of their execution. Don't strangle away from my examples, otherwise my entire post doesn't work. No post works. If you have something to say about those specific games that I mentioned - go ahead, but keep in mind that I never mentioned ME3 and DA2 because unlike their previous parts these ones were made with a corporate influence in mind, which b.t.w. are somewhat equal to the polls, due to taking developer's vision away for the sake of someone else's side opinion.
These 2 specific games are my golden standart and no other game. I didn't mention other games.
Same concerns about the Hobbit. I never talked about it. Why do you think I said specifically "Lord of the rings
Original Trilogy"? To enlarge the sentence? No, I specify that I meant ONLY original trilogy, not Hobbits.
Don't do that.
When giving examples I'm being specific for a reason. For a reason that their continuations have corporate influence and much, MUCH less clear vision and a lot of contradictive things. Stay on the track with me next time please.
Now, did they have some things that had minuses? Of course they had. Some parts of their mechanics weren't finished or weren't detailed enough to make much of a sense (for example mining in ME2 was just horrible and no fun; not sure about DA:O though, can't remember any mechanic that would be insignifficant). But those are little details and they dont ruin the overall result which was the game.
MGS Phantom Pain still hurts at the end and the answer for everything was NANOMACHINES in the fourth installment Guns of the Patriots
Can't say much about it, because I never gave MGS or any part of MG series as an example.
I gave
Kojima's name as an example, to give you an example of a
game designer's role and an importance of his unique and uninterferred vision forthe entire franchise. I never said anything about the games themselves because personally I see MG series a little bit flawed and I dont have them as golden standarts for myself neither. But the man himself do I recognize as an invaluable part of the team.
And my point was that just one man with clear vision can create an entire franchise that is taken by the majority as something holy and instantly recognizable, just because one man can do so much for the project. I also ask you to see beyond "
I like or dislike" and look into modern culture to see other people as well, and not only you or me as a 1 uint.
But still i think that your examples arent that good of a choice, because everything had a major company behind or building them: DA:O and ME2 from BioWare, Kojimas MG Series are insane.
nd heres the thing why i still dont understand your argument, even if it has a valid point from one side. When you compare the budgets of these companies with the LoK Team, the way of distribution and marketing possibilyties, then you get the first part of my argument. They can do whatever they want and live with the aftermath, good or bad, while a little team that works on patreon has to earn trust, find the best common ground within a community, has fine art or the specific kinks - i honestly dont know it, because everyone has their own critique points to give away their money.
This is where you are only partially correct. Bioware Montreal because of ME:Andromeda is not agreed to your comment (closed), Visceral games and Dead Space franchise are not agreed (closed), Star Wars and Han Solo are not agreed (continueations no longer in production due to low profits). Studios are being taken down, people loosing their work even in the big companies, not only because game was "bad", but because its corporate decided "it wasn't good enough" because it didnt make as much money as they hoped, or because it doesnt have a field to insert enough dual practices in it. AAA field can be much more harsher than indie and much more unforgiving. And even though such cases as SW Battlefront2 and its backlash, Bioware and Anthem's total failure, Battlefield V and its marketing failure, Bethesda and Fallout 76 failure didn't close down the entire studios, but its because they have much more bigger financial support from the start. If those games didnt have it, they would go fucking bankrupt. Yes, they do still exist, but their reputation is in total shithole as if right now. Its the already established brand, popularity and strong neck of a corporates that hold them swimming. Non the less their stupid choices braught some of those games to their financial underwhelming state. Their situation is far from good. Trust me, some people
were fired, some people
lost their jobs.
Hell, some people loose jobs just "because", without any reason at all. Like Blizzard laid off
!800! employees without a good reason. Just because they freaking felt so.
Sure, its hard to be your own studio without a constant income coming from a certain financial supporter, but that is also their plus. Their desicion is what decides their fate, not some unknown guy in the director financial committee to which noone has access. They are their own bosses and they can decide what to do to make those money. But making polls is not what brings them popularity or money or a good will of the people. A good, well-thought out and executed game will.
Sure marketing is also a very strong tool to gain finance, but polls once again is not a big nor a substancial part of the marketing strategies. And its not worth to dump your own game just to make some fans go "
UWU", by sacrificing your own vision.
tl;dr: there are minuses ofcourse, but there are also pluses in being self-employed.
The other thing i want to point out is, well, hipocrisy. In here, we discuss everything about the game, from models to whatever, and want to have our opinions somewhat heard. Then you get the answer that a poll has been held and the majority wanted that, and it is not ok that way because of whatever reason? Thats... odd for me.
Such polls shouldn't have happened in the first place.
Remember "Feet Wars"? Remember how fucking absurd and insane that crap was? Yeah, that shit shouldn't have happened in the first place. If developers had a clear and strong stance on that question, no poll would've been needed, no opinions would've been required and no additional development time would've been neccesary.
I'm not talking about "Make a poll and then say to the voters "
We wont be doing this because we decided so, because my left ankle doesn't want that". No, what I mean is that such polls shouldn't even start.
Making a poll is a big thing, you dont just start it and then suddenly go away - you stick with it. Yet, even with that said I bleive that IF developer suddenly realized what is better for the project in any possible way, he should stick with it no matter what, because his vision works only when all parts of his vision work together.
If you didnt participate in a vote, you shouldnt cry about the outcome.
And if you do, yet still the wrong choice is being made, what do you do then? Do you celebrate?
Imo some wrong choices have been made even though I participate them to not take a place, yet they are done. At the very least as a person who is interested in the product one should have a possibility to voice one's opinion and reasons why he thinks some things work better or worse.
Also, finally, a
discussion.
People dont allways argue, they might just discuss why 1 thing works well, and why 2 doesn't. OF course in such a conversation there are going to be 2 opposite sides, but just because people are not agreed on something doesn't automatically mean they are project's mortal enemies and they should be instantly shushed/ignored/exiled by the community. Instead community could listen to the critics and think about them, what if a person suggsting it ight be right? But in our world people instantly think that such a man is a hater and his thoughts bring only negative reputation and tarnish good names of developers, so he should be dealt with asap until he hurts someone.
Stop it. Discuss things. People who spend their time on forums are not your enemies. At least they dont want to be. They are simply engaging in a conversation. Sometimes their phrasing might be too agressive, but we should remember that its Internet - a collaboration of different cultures and ages all over the world, and in other culture such a behaviour might be normal. Just take it easy and remember that one shouldn't answer with insults on insults. You, as a person, can be better than this.
B.t.w. shout out to
Valaska for his community approach. Once he joined the conversation this thread became extremely civil. Thank you, man.
Also, if felt like a lacking appreciation that even Kuja took the time to help us inform here, and the overall improvement in communication from everyone from their side.
I dont mean to be rude nor anything, but its entirely on them. Its their job to make their project profitable, yet nobody really requested Kuja himself to come and inform us. Props to Kuja and team for doing that of course, but I dont feel like communty of the site should be ecstatic as much, after all the negatives that came from the developers in the first place. Before Valaska, Vlad came here to argue, to throw some accusations and to say if people wanted info - go to discord and only to discord, only then to go back to that discord and throw tantrums at F95 to his own crowd that also keept on throwing tantrums (even up to this date).
I love Kuja and I allways appreciate him and the work that he does, but saying critics to improve his work has nothing to do with unpreciating additional work that he chose to do himself, from hiw own good will.
Because of the unprofessional behaviour LOK team has somewhat tarnished its reputation here and they would need some time and some actually finalized product to restore/improve it.
To that I agree, only #demo will show what that whole ordeal is about.
So yeah.
#demo
chopolander
"Phantas has made it clear that a designer should not be influenced by the results of a survey, but should stop and look at the comments on his design and assess the reasons to see if what is being said is a good reason to improve his work."
Hey man, I'm glad to see that we think alike, but just take a note that everything that I say is just my opinion and in no way is that a strict rule to be followed without a step to the left/right.
It may be a strict rule for me, because I have a game development expirience and I know how it works behind the stages, also because I'm passionate about games and this is the way I would choose to run things if I were to develop my own game, but still... Its only me. This is only
my take on things, so please don't take it as a rule that shouldn't be contradicted.
I may as well be wrong, because I'm only human afterall.
That would be an intersting point for discussion from my view... so just wait #demo
