Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.41.0] [Selebus]

[aramaug]

That part about the kick to the shin finally made sense to me, thank you. Sometimes I can really picture Himawari being the first "normal" person in their family, born at a time after all the fucked-up shit.

Can you imagine the little trickster being like "yeah dad, you have two daughters and they both have the same name, real kick to the shin that one, hilarious! You're not at all a goober for that, no sir!" then she also maybe had a knack for imitating all their friends, and would like to dress up... Akira and her would have no sexual vibe at all, and she'd know how to deal with his blackouts.

Man, I really want that day to come - and if it came to pass, it would perfectly sum up the "I'm all you never wanted, and everything you'll ever need" - with her being a normal daughter in a healthy relationship.

Assuming that she's the narrator who calls herself "your kick to the shin" in Chapter 4, it does seem like she has good memories of a wholesome relationship with her father. So I'm hopeful that we'll get to see that, maybe in Ayane's purity route.

Spoiler: Irregular Heartbeat

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[Comiies]

Edit: I see Moonflare posted before me, but I think this still might help clarify things.

Yes, the consensus is that she is Akira and Ayane's child. I haven't seen anyone seriously argue otherwise. What isn't certain is her real name. What Moonflare is arguing for (and I also support this position) is that her given name is Ami, i.e. she has the same name as her cousin/half-sister.

As a preliminary, if you're not already aware, the community refers to her as "Himawari" (Japanese for sunflower) because she tells Akira to name her after his favorite flower, which is later established to be sunflowers. There are also a few references to Himawari in the game, such as HimawariCo.

To be really brief, this is what I think is the strongest evidence for her actual name being Ami:

• Ayane talks about the possibility of giving the name Ami to a future child on three separate occasions.
• During the Untitled Children's Show, Himawari as Ayane says that she picked a name for her baby that she knows Akira would like. As far as we know, Ayane doesn't know about Akira's love of sunflowers.
• At some point (I think in Maya's festival), Himawari tells Akira that her name is "hilarious, a real kick to the shin". "Himawari" isn't a funny name, but being the second person named "Ami Arakawa" would be.

I would say that the last one also makes it definitive that Himawari has a particular name, it's not just up to the player.

Also dont forget the fact that during one of those happy event sequences where it was revealed that Himawari has a contract with these disgusting gods it was confirmed that Ayane was pregnant but didnt tell Sensei!

 

[Comiies]

That part about the kick to the shin finally made sense to me, thank you. Sometimes I can really picture Himawari being the first "normal" person in their family, born at a time after all the fucked-up shit.

Can you imagine the little trickster being like "yeah dad, you have two daughters and they both have the same name, real kick to the shin that one, hilarious! You're not at all a goober for that, no sir!" then she also maybe had a knack for imitating all their friends, and would like to dress up... Akira and her would have no sexual vibe at all, and she'd know how to deal with his blackouts.

Man, I really want that day to come - and if it came to pass, it would perfectly sum up the "I'm all you never wanted, and everything you'll ever need" - with her being a normal daughter in a healthy relationship.

Nah but if himawari being Akiras and Ayanes child from a previous cycle happens to be true,that means that Ami allowed that to happen.Crazy stuff.

 

[PhiloPhilo]

About a subject someone mentioned earlier. Sure we don't need everything answered but if by the end we still are mostly unsure about the major points then that will suck.

I agree with you generally, but also see where he's coming from. There has to be a purpose as to why something is or isn't explained in a story, and getting it wrong ruins it. We leave things ambiguous or unknown to heighten intrigue, prolong reveals, encourage speculation, and to keep consequences unknown (e.g., if we're just told who is the mastermind of an event and that they just did it because they're a dick, then this thread goes from 2000 pages to 100 and the game becomes half the length, and boring.) The problems come when things aren't unexplained, but an (appropriate) explanation is needed or earned. Then we're left with contrivances, shattering of immersion, a purposely vague story that's unrewarding, and the feeling that we got cheated out of part of the story and its justification. We're left feeling like the writer just wanted something cool to happen no matter how stupid it is, or how little reason for it exists. Oh hey, Palpatine's back!
On the flip side, stories are information. Not giving it can be powerful, but without it there's no story. I'd say it comes down to this; Is it more rewarding, engaging, sensical to reveal something or keep it unknown by the end? What information is needed to tie everything together and make the conclusion satisfying, and after that, what can we afford to leave teased?
I'm fine with a lot being left up for debate (not hand-waved or forgotten about,) but if we get a cop-out, cliff hanger ending I'll be pretty peeved.

 

[daagagsdgd]

The discussion on Himawari (The girl with blue eyes whom Nodoka saw in her dreams right?) reminds me of something. In Ad Infinitum narrator (which suggests to be Pareidolia) said that "If anything, you should impregnate that Ayane girl immediately.", which makes me wonder Himawari's association with Pareidolia since he wanted baby of Ayane to be born. Though I'd rather to believe Himawari was the unnamed baby of Ayane obliterated in reset.

And in Untitled Children's Show 79 took Himawari in hostage and forced her to watch Akira struggle. But to whom did 79 and Moyo serve to? Pareidolia or Nozomu? I think I haven't seen many successive theories built on 79 and 61.

 

[crustlord12]

I don't make pony porn. I just make cute ponies and centaur/horse girl porn.

Spoiler: Io+Uta

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I can't believe I saw what you wrote, and still just instinctively opened the spoiler. Monkey brain needs to slow down

 

[JelF547]

I can't believe I saw what you wrote, and still just instinctively opened the spoiler. Monkey brain needs to slow down

Or you should just trust your intuition and enjoy it

 

[fdsasdf_p]

Why stop at Kaori?

Yumi walks in on Akira and her dad.

 

[PhiloPhilo]

 

[throwawaysponge]

Crime/9

 

[Lux Perpetua]

But to whom did 79 and Moyo serve to? Pareidolia or Nozomu?

How is Akira's deceased older brother and pareidolia even related? I've completely lost track of what's going on with the theories in this thread lately

 

[Moonflare]

How is Akira's deceased older brother and pareidolia even related? I've completely lost track of what's going on with the theories in this thread lately

79 and Moyo are "freelancers" aka supernatural entities that call themselves "children of the clockwork", and seem to change allegiances between gods throughout the game. They are seen (presumably) serving HOPE multiple times (like collecting Akira's sperm inside his church).

The concept of "freelancers" partly comes from the bunny observer that tries to change camps from HOPE to Wires during the plant council in the Sekai Restoration event.

That Nozomu is related to Pareidolia in being a god they can pledge allegiance to is a jump in the fact that the previous "USER1" (or maybe not a user at all, but HOPE's predecessor at least) was also called Nozomu aka "the horny ball of light". Thus the jump is that HOPE which is the current USER1 is also Nozomu, instead of his son or someone that simply inherited his legacy.

The event "tick tock tick tock", which has AmIOKay and a reflection of Akira having sex in front of him, is theorized to actually be Nozomu and Sekai having sex in front of him. If that's the case, what Sekai says would point to HOPE being their son instead: "we can get pregnant with a new HOPE, teach it to reset the world and touch it sexually if it can't".

There isn't enough evidence as to the relation between Nozomu and HOPE yet. All we know is that Nozomu (god and brother) both died. If HOPE is an entire new thing or one of his aspects reborn we don't know.

Edit: for those interested in this part of the lore, I recommend rewatching "first contact" which seems to recount the car accident, and how, from it, all of the gods seemed to spawn (or become relevant). It's an interesting read, even though it's too confusing to serve as evidence of anything by itself.

 

[Fire Lord Zuko]

And in Untitled Children's Show 79 took Himawari in hostage and forced her to watch Akira struggle. But to whom did 79 and Moyo serve to? Pareidolia or Nozomu? I think I haven't seen many successive theories built on 79 and 61.

I think 79 and Moyo work for HOPE, for now at least:

Spoiler

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I don't think it's Himawari, simply due to her role as a hostage and how she's treated in "Untitled" by Long Maya:

Spoiler

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[gazgiz]

I don't think it's Himawari, simply due to her role as a hostage and how she's treated in "Untitled" by Long Maya:

Where in the game is stated that she's a hostage? Not snarking just miss that, if true.

I always took that scene to be an argument between two "coworkers," but then again, my hermeneutical reading of the game is deeply agnostic to the GODS gods Gods being "evil" or that they aren't different aspects of the same unified entity. A lot of post-nicaean theology in this here "porn" game.

 

[Fire Lord Zuko]

Where in the game is stated that she's a hostage? Not snarking just miss that, if true.

I always took that scene to be an argument between two "coworkers," but then again, my hermeneutical reading of the game is deeply agnostic to the GODS gods Gods being "evil" or that they aren't different aspects of the same unified entity. A lot of post-nicaean theology in this here "porn" game.

Himawari is a hostage both in the sense that Akira (her father) is being threatened and also her very own existence with Long Maya's threat to 'remove' her from the show if she doesn't comply. We learn exactly what this entails in a previous event:

Spoiler

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[gazgiz]

Himawari is a hostage both in the sense that Akira (her father) is being threatened and also her very own existence with Long Maya's threat to 'remove' her from the show if she doesn't comply. We learn exactly what this entails in a previous event:

Spoiler

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Ah. Like I said, my reading of the story is slightly different then most others on the sub. As various narrators and...uh..."entities" are aware they are in a game, I take these to also be references to that conceit.

"The Show" and "The Game we are all playing" are the same thing. Akira can't be "removed" without the game stopping, and if the game stops, nobody "exists" anymore.

They also tell Himawari that "some would say the worst is yet to come" which is absolutely going to be the dark path, but again, in order for any of us to experience the "good paths" outside of cheating, we must.

But I also get that this game is a hermeneutic minefield, and considering that almost everybody is an unreliable narrator I don't really trust any firm reading yet.

 

[PhiloPhilo]

Where in the game is stated that she's a hostage? Not snarking just miss that, if true.

I always took that scene to be an argument between two "coworkers," but then again, my hermeneutical reading of the game is deeply agnostic to the GODS gods Gods being "evil" or that they aren't different aspects of the same unified entity. A lot of post-nicaean theology in this here "porn" game.

Zuko answered this better, but just to add, Himawari is another 'freelancer' type of character, at least to some degree. She's not on the level of the users or others, and isn't in a position to 'fight back' so to speak. Her disgust in this scene despite ultimately (and begrudglingly) going along with it when threatened shows that she doesn't really have much choice. Not necessarily a hostage, but being forced to comply in this instance. We know she has her own endgoals or motivations, but she works with others when it makes sense to or she has to.

I wouldn't be quick to view the story or characters through one lens, either. There's a lot we don't know for sure, and the symbolism and themes also seem to work against a single direct inspiration or message. Abrahamic religion and mythology plays a large part, but in somewhat dubious ways and with too much else going on to match perfectly. The users all seem to embody certain traits or concepts to some degree, but this is also not clear-cut.

 

[DeSkel15]

Something interesting that I don't think has been brought up yet, is that Moyo is apparently very fond of The Shapeshifter/Himawari:

Spoiler

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I'm also still curious about Moyo's "growth":

Spoiler

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Can't help but wonder if that's where Nao-chan came from, but if not...just what exactly was going on?

Perhaps she was modified by Pareidolia or Sekai, hence the change in her "constitution" and recent appearance with Sekai?

Edit: Also considering The Shapeshifter's appearance on the Untitled show which is usually hosted by Moyo (or at least this segment was), on top of Moyo's fondness for her and being upset that she wouldn't return, one could assume that The Shapeshifter/Himawari was a guest on the show prior to this.

 

[Moonflare]

I always took that scene to be an argument between two "coworkers," but then again, my hermeneutical reading of the game is deeply agnostic to the GODS gods Gods being "evil" or that they aren't different aspects of the same unified entity. A lot of post-nicaean theology in this here "porn" game.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that. It's pretty clear they're the same thing. If all the evidence wasn't enough, Pareidolia has said so himself when he explains why his writing pattern changed so many times.

I agree with PhiloPhilo however that it seems a bit eager to dismiss part of the lore under the umbrella of "well, it's just supernatural mumble jumble since they're all in a game and it's all the same thing anyway, and Akira is the one thing that matters because he's the player". I'm not saying that's wrong, but it's also very limited in the scope of what has been presented.

Without moving it too far, if Akira is removed, it could be that this Akira is removed. Therefore it wouldn't be an empty threat, but what has been done a thousand times already - and yet Moyo and Long Maya have remained. Furthermore, NAO says Akira is of no importance - and if she wasn't lying it could simply be that Akira as a player is important to you, the player, as he serves as a window into that world. It could be that if he's gone, what's gone is your window, not that world, or the entities that were supposed to be just "a part of a game". Hence, what is in danger is you, the player, because if you bought into the "stop playing the game", what could happen is that Akira loses the tiny spark of freewill he has in this (special) cycle, and goes back to being a mindless puppet (exactly what most of the entities want).

There are many things I'd add, but I've limited myself to what relates directly to my understanding of what you said. As always, I think it's too early to define things in LiL, at least to this extent.

 

[gazgiz]

Zuko answered this better, but just to add, Himawari is another 'freelancer' type of character, at least to some degree. She's not on the level of the users or others, and isn't in a position to 'fight back' so to speak. Her disgust in this scene despite ultimately (and begrudglingly) going along with it when threatened shows that she doesn't really have much choice. Not necessarily a hostage, but being forced to comply in this instance. We know she has her own endgoals or motivations, but she works with others when it makes sense to or she has to.

I just don't get where the text even hints that she wants to "fight back." I think we can all agree that Himawari has a much better understanding of what's going on here than Akira or us, the players. Her line "...this isn't...how it's..." implies that she was told something about what's going on, and at least my reading is that she's been told that this is all to legitimately help Akira. While I don't work in the medical field, I have friends that do, and sometimes before you can fix somebodies body, you have to legitimately break their body. While it may not look like it to us because Akira is our POV character, this very well could be a situation of "If you don't have the stomach to do what we need to do here, then you're going to have to get out of the way."

As for choice... I would bet money Sel's read Camus. You always have a choice: you can always kill yourself. Just like both Akira and Himawari are offered non-existence but don't take it, we the players are told may times that we can....just stop playing.

I wouldn't be quick to view the story or characters through one lens, either. There's a lot we don't know for sure, and the symbolism and themes also seem to work against a single direct inspiration or message. Abrahamic religion and mythology plays a large part, but in somewhat dubious ways and with too much else going on to match perfectly. The users all seem to embody certain traits or concepts to some degree, but this is also not clear-cut.

Yeah, I'm open to pretty much every possibility at this point. I'm more inclined to make a list of things I'm almost positive Sel has read and/or studied. For example, I would bet that he was raised either Catholic or Orthodox, and if not, has fallen down the theological rabbit hole as it's fucking fascinating.