Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.42.0] [Selebus]

[Nadekai]

just noticed Otoha's also looking at the upside down house on her tv.

Spoiler: Highly Pornographic

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I'd wonder if it had anything to do with Nodoka, since it's her dorm - but Noriko says it plays all the time on the old district so probably not.

5 girls, boarded up house, they eat something, and Noriko says that watching it here instead of food they had grey stuff. Also each time she watched things played out differently, and some girl died a horrible death. She never finished it.

What does the Upside-down house even mean?

 

[DeSkel15]

I understand the "making competitors look bad part" and "the need to be recognized as a helpful friend", and I agree to all of them. What got my head stuck still is that this is so incompatible to the assumption where Pareidolia being the possible culprit behind Molly's incident; this is the only part I was rejecting hard. Essentially what I want to prove is that this possibility isn't just "low but exists", it's "zero". (A note here is that the culprit here has to be either USER2 or Pareidolia because it was confirmed by Sekai that the sacrifice in Chapter 2 was for a different god that isn't HOPE)

Normally I'd think anyone that plays their cards like this (gaining trust then betraying later) would be someone that wasn't in an advantageous position in the competition or was in need of accessing something very specific and wasn't currently in possession. Thus this someone did some strategic moves on the key factor of the competition to get the upper hand against its opponents. This contradicts with the assumption where Pareidolia being capable of many things Pre Chapter 4 very hard. If Pareidolia was capable of doing good cop (pretend to be a friend)/bad cop (pretend to be USER2) all by itself already, it would already have the upper hand being this capable. What not just keep doing the bad cop part already since it got what it wanted, no? What other things it may want that cannot be done by forcing Sensei but can only be done by lulling Sensei into choosing it?

I'd also agree that Pareidolia isn't something you should trust and I suppose perhaps this is the main reason that prompts you. But that isn't necessarily the same as regarding "absolute everything" it says as lies if one can't find a reason behind a lie. Aka, "Pareidolia once hid its nature from you" is a good reason to distrust it, but it will not be enough to interpret its statement on Molly incident otherwise, and jump to "maybe it was actually Pareidolia who did it". It had a reason to hide its nature, and it should have another now if it keeps lying. Especially now that Pareidolia finally assumed a great idea of control and revealed its true nature to Sensei already, why does it need to keep lying? You've outwitted your opponents, and more importantly your cover is already compromised. Why still falsely pin blame on other USERS about some horrible deeds in the past if that was from you? If there was an elusive reason or goal for it to keep lying, it'd have to be something that cannot be achieved by continuing toying Sensei, and can only be achieved by Sensei actively choosing it; this reason or goal was never articulated anywhere, and I am not about putting my faith in future evidence when there isn't one. Getting its own season doesn't quite count because that's a mean to an end and not an end (getting its own season so that it can do things vs just getting its own season).

And the reason I brought up Sensei's exchange with Pareidolia again is because, Sensei is proven to be an absolute dunce when trying to figure out who did what. I admit I don't know how much Sensei can see what we see and it's hard to prove anything, but that's not my point. The point is we saw an USER2 on the screen during Molly incident, but when Sensei tried to wrap his head around about it, he first thought it was Pareidolia because this is a nostalgic trick he experienced, and then he thought it was HOPE because I assume Sensei was associating this trick with the one that said "take something that doesn't belong to you", and Pareidolia had to "correct" him that it was USER2 that did it. I almost don't need to care whether Sensei could see what we see or not because he just got it all wrong; Pareidolia's supposed plan to pin blame on USER2 never worked as intended because Sensei was too dumb to point at the right scapegoat anyway. This is another reason why I would have to regard Pareidolia's statement on Molly incident as true because, Sensei was too much of a dunce to get properly deceived on the matter. Still lying at this point would be just for deceiving players instead of Sensei. And this isn't an in-universe reason I can accept.

So same thing as my last post (or an extension of it): The wish to have Sensei trust it, choose it, and vilify others highly contradicts with the assumption of Pareidolia being powerful enough and being responsible for Molly incident. Since I believe "Pareidolia trying to gain trust" is true, then "Pareidolia being powerful enough and being responsible for Molly incident" would have to be false.

I'll try to streamline my thought process to compare with yours (apologies in advance if I get any part of it wrong because it'd look up I was putting words in your mouth)

Yours:
Pareidolia claimed Molly incident was caused by USER2 but the entire exchange was very back-and-forth → Pareidolia cannot be trusted due to preconceived solid reasons → This means that statement he gave has a good chance to be false → Molly incident might not be caused by USER2 → Bear in mind that Pareidolia communicated in USER2 fashion twice → This might imply the possibility of Pareidolia impersonating USER2 at some other occasions before Chapter 4 → USER2 never outright admitted that was his doing → Pareidolia could actually be the culprit behind Molly incident and was trying to pin blame on USER2 (or the possibility was there I should say) → All the more reasons to believe as such because Pareidolia was such a lying fuck since the beginning (it is)

Mine:
Pareidolia claimed Molly incident was caused by USER2 but the entire exchange was very back-and-forth → Pareidolia cannot be trusted due to preconceived solid reasons → Its days of gaining Sensei's trust are over, however → I don't find a reason for Pareidolia to still lie to Sensei about it at this point → Molly incident might just be caused by USER2 → USER2 never said it was him but this topic never came up between Sensei and USER2 so at best it's unconfirmed → Pareidolia's statement at least aligns with what we saw on screen during Molly incident → Are there direct evidences that can prove Molly incident was done by someone other than USER2? → Currently no → USER2 was for now the one responsible for Molly incident, and Pareidolia was trying to replicate a "successful" case by pulling the same trick on Karin

My weakness here is that I don't find an in-game reason for Pareidolia to keep lying about something Sensei could never figure out on his own, and I don't find other direct evidence which can prove that USER2 didn't do it. So feel free to give me pointers. And definitely correct me if I got your part wrong.

Firstly:

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Secondly:

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Thirdly:

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Fourthly:

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Overall:

• Molly being raped at all is questionable in retrospect
• It being USER2 behind the rape instead of Pareidolia who's shown the same capabilities, the ability to copy others, and the actual desire to have girls raped seems unlikely
• Pareidolia has always been more capable than it's let on (apparently bested the others in their seasons at least once, albeit the circumstances may have played a part, but the overall power levels and how they actually work, aren't exactly clear in the first place)
• Pareidolia still has reason to keep Sensei on it's side even in it's season (He might rely on a different USER or god if given the chance otherwise, and there's no way that Pareidolia wants that)
• USER2 is probably coming for Pareidolia's ass. Lmao.

Nevertheless, it's impossible to say for sure. We can just agree to agree it's not clear for now, as it's probably meant to be. There's no way you could convince me there's a 0% chance, tbh. At least for now. If USER2 starts having Sensei rape individuals then It'd be different, and as Maya has said:

Spoiler

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[DeSkel15]

Have we determined whose hands are on Akira's shoulders (when he has them)? Or does that change too?

View attachment 3641790

Recently, it's been implied that it's Sekai's hands:

Spoiler

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Same with who is following him. Of course, there may be multiple things like it...like that damned Maya face.

 

[TheSeedy1]

Still think this is one of the most powerful images in the game for me - cementing Niki supremacy plus highlighting the horror that is Sekai.

Spoiler: Niki Spoiler

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[fdsasdf_p]

Overall:

• Molly being raped at all is questionable in retrospect
• It being USER2 behind the rape instead of Pareidolia who's shown the same capabilities, the ability to copy others, and the actual desire to have girls raped seems unlikely
• Pareidolia has always been more capable than it's let on (apparently bested the others in their seasons at least once, albeit the circumstances may have played a part, but the overall power levels and how they actually work, aren't exactly clear in the first place)
• Pareidolia still has reason to keep Sensei on it's side even in it's season (He might rely on a different USER or god if given the chance otherwise, and there's no way that Pareidolia wants that)
• USER2 is probably coming for Pareidolia's ass. Lmao.

Nevertheless, it's impossible to say for sure. We can just agree to agree it's not clear for now, as it's probably meant to be. There's no way you could convince me there's a 0% chance, tbh. At least for now. If USER2 starts having Sensei rape individuals then It'd be different, and as Maya has said:

Spoiler

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A few things I'd point out are:

• I know this is your segue to question Sekai's credibility, but arguing what exactly happened to Molly isn't the point. There was divine intervention there regardless of how far gone Molly may or may not be; I merely want to think about whether it was USER2 that was behind it or not. I used her words to rule out HOPE, but whether Sekai was lying or not does not increase the odds of true culprit being Pareidolia (in fact it decreases because math)
• I didn't assume Pareidolia has no further reason to manipulate Sensei. In fact it does; it still relies on Sensei to "learn how to feel" at the end of the day, and Sensei relies on its one-sided promise about bringing Maya back. What I actually assumed is Pareidolia has no further reason to lie about what happened to Molly if it was the one behind the scene since Pareidolia has no trouble admitting this time it's its own doing with Karin.
• Following up the previous bullet point: Pareidolia continuing keeping Sensei on its side sounds reasonable, but doing this by lying about what happened to Molly does not. Shifting blame no longer works as soon as the same trick is pulled on Karin. If Pareidolia doesn't deny its doing with Karin then "lying about Molly so Sensei remains on its side" makes little sense.
• Your claim "Pareidolia isn't all powerful even in his Season. It's capable and likely has been far more so than it's let on, which may have been hinted......" sounds self-contradicting. Regardless, I know and agree that Pareidolia can interfere to a certain extent even in the old chapters (whether I agree with your interpretation on Pluto Was Never Really A Planet is a different story), but the key piece that connects this shown fact to Pareidolia being the possible culprit of the Molly incident remains missing. Revealing how much it can do in other scenarios doesn't immediately equate increasing its chance of being the mastermind of a particular scenario if Pareidolia cannot be proven to be the only capable gods at the time. If today Lavender's Green didn't have USER2's name on it I'd consider the possibility of Pareidolia to a great extent with its shown tendency and whatnot, but choosing to disregard the displayed USER2 because we now assume Pareidolia was likely always pretending to be weaker than it actually was is far-fetched.

(I have to cherry pick only a few points to respond because some looks very apples to oranges with low relevancy to my question, or not really proving anything. Let me know if I misunderstood or took things out of context because of it)

But I finally can see where our divergence kicks in; you will automatically assign a certain level of possibility to every statement entities like Pareidolia and Sekai made being lies. And I tend to believe what they say until it is proven otherwise by finding out their hidden motives in the future events, or unless they are just sounding overtly non-serious or full of red flags since the beginning. You mentioned that taking their words for granted without a reason to do so brings up complications, but to me refuting their every point brings up even more complications (not from Sensei's perspective but from reader's perspective, or my own since I don't want to one-sided generalize about it).

Because what that means is that you are required to assign currently unverifiable motives along with plenty more assumptions for the hypothesized lies. Things like "Sekai/Pareidolia just wanted Sensei and us to think he did, so he'd be more willing to rape others and collect others, later", "Pareidolia is probably regretting not gaining more control over Sensei", or "Pareidolia was likely always pretending to be weaker than it actually was" are all something that is related to motives and cannot be verified. These are the good amount of assumptions you have to make in order to accommodate the off chance of them lying; meanwhile, believing what they said only needs one assumption that is "they're telling the truth regarding a particular subject". We can agree to disagree here as long as Occam's razor still sits in my head, but to be fair I realize this isn't a digenetic reason on my end so I won't press it further.

 

[Moonflare]

Firstly:

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Secondly:

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Thirdly:

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Fourthly:

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Overall:

• Molly being raped at all is questionable in retrospect
• It being USER2 behind the rape instead of Pareidolia who's shown the same capabilities, the ability to copy others, and the actual desire to have girls raped seems unlikely
• Pareidolia has always been more capable than it's let on (apparently bested the others in their seasons at least once, albeit the circumstances may have played a part, but the overall power levels and how they actually work, aren't exactly clear in the first place)
• Pareidolia still has reason to keep Sensei on it's side even in it's season (He might rely on a different USER or god if given the chance otherwise, and there's no way that Pareidolia wants that)
• USER2 is probably coming for Pareidolia's ass. Lmao.

Nevertheless, it's impossible to say for sure. We can just agree to agree it's not clear for now, as it's probably meant to be. There's no way you could convince me there's a 0% chance, tbh. At least for now. If USER2 starts having Sensei rape individuals then It'd be different, and as Maya has said:

Spoiler

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A mostly and probably wrong speculation about crossed lines crossed lines, but also a few questions about USER2 and Pareidolia.

Spoiler

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EDIT:

Spoiler: Molly and Lavender Green

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[hcguy]

I also do not believe Molly was raped (in the penis-in-vagina sense) because she would absolutely have been feeling it when she woke up if it had happened.

 

[Moonflare]

I also do not believe Molly was raped (in the penis-in-vagina sense) because she would absolutely have been feeling it when she woke up if it had happened.

I'd imagine people that believe she was raped would also believe that her virginity was restored along with her clothes. Kinda of like Makoto in Bluejay.

Now why would a god that wants a sacrifice bother restoring someone's virginity, I have no idea. And there's another thing, if she was raped that happened while Akira was disconnected from Terminal23, which I'm not even sure would count. Cause it's not like he was blacking out while doing stuff, he'd be completely out of it - which never happened before or after this.

Spoiler: Terminal Message

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Also, Wires would never send a message such as the one above.

 

[Nadekai]

Do we have any information on Io's past? Aside from that she was sexually abused?
Why did people go along with Nodoka's competition?

 

[Moonflare]

Why did people go along with Nodoka's competition?

Because Selebus messed up. He's a great writer, but it happens. Either that, which is the most commonly accepted opinion here, or they all just don't care about Io. Which is plausible, but it's still weird - because if that was the case, they could have addressed that in some of the conversations.

Let me put it this way, let's say you are called to this secret sexual meeting once in a lifetime but hours before it happens the girl that's throwing it says some random ass bizarre shit to someone that doesn't care about anyone else in class. Would you not still go? I don't think anyone there really cares for either Nodoka or Io. They're more interested in the event itself.

Again, I'm in the team that thinks it was bad writing. But there it is.

 

[Nadekai]

Because Selebus messed up. He's a great writer, but it happens. Either that, which is the most commonly accepted opinion here, or they all just don't care about Io. Which is plausible, but it's still weird - because if that was the case, they could have addressed that in some of the conversations.

I honestly find it hard to believe that anyone would just... ignore Nodoka revealing someone's biggest secret... I don't think even Yumi or Futaba would just go along with it...

 

[Moonflare]

I honestly find it hard to believe that anyone would just... ignore Nodoka revealing someone's biggest secret... I don't think even Yumi or Futaba would just go along with it...

You're looking at it from the player's perspective. Nodoka didn't reveal anything - because none of them (apart from Uta) knows anything. Io doesn't talk to anyone. From their perspective, Nodoka said some random perverted crap as she always does. And in this case was slapped for it. Case closed.

I would remind you that Tsuneyo did something kind of similar during her comedy presentation as well, and in that case everyone was much more affected because she was implying that she knew. Nodoka made it very clear that she was guessing, so nothing was revealed, at most everyone considered the possibility given Io and Uta's reaction.

 

[thebladeofwar]

Im playing catch up and just got to: Our Time Atop This Mattress. Even Sensei is calling this out as a trap. What are the ramifications of picking one girl over another? Rin seems like a bad homie idea, Yumi also sounds like a bad idea as she too is sort of a hommie. Ayane seems like a no lose choice. Tsubasa seems like the choice the game wants me to make... and Chinami, well I am pretty sure the game is going to turn off if I click that button like it has done many times before when I experiment with choices.

 

[Moonflare]

I had forgotten the fact that Noriko literally drugged Akira, what the actual fuck.

Spoiler: Imouto mode

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I try my best to be on your team, Noriko. But what the actual fuck. I'm livid. If I was Akira, I'd never talk to this girl again. Then again I'd never be Akira for a multitude of reasons, praise be.

 

[Moonflare]

Im playing catch up and just got to: Our Time Atop This Mattress. Even Sensei is calling this out as a trap. What are the ramifications of picking one girl over another? Rin seems like a bad homie idea, Yumi also sounds like a bad idea as she too is sort of a hommie. Ayane seems like a no lose choice. Tsubasa seems like the choice the game wants me to make... and Chinami, well I am pretty sure the game is going to turn off if I click that button like it has done many times before when I experiment with choices.

The game won't turn off. But there is currently only one choice that leads to an event, which is Ayane's. And that's likely the only one that will turn to an event (there are future conversations regarding Yumi or Rin though).

 

[thebladeofwar]

The game won't turn off. But there is currently only one choice that leads to an event, which is Ayane's. And that's likely the only one that will turn to an event (there are future conversations regarding Yumi or Rin though).

Awesome. Exactly what I needed. My fear was a need for backtracking if I missed an event. Thanks man.

 

[Nadekai]

I had forgotten the fact that Noriko literally drugged Akira, what the actual fuck.

Spoiler: Imouto mode

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I try my best to be on your team, Noriko. But what the actual fuck. I'm livid. If I was Akira, I'd never talk to this girl again. Then again I'd never be Akira for a multitude of reasons, praise be.

It was hot af tho.
You don't want to be drugged out of love by your "little sister"?

Spoiler

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[Moonflare]

It was hot af tho.
You don't want to be drugged out of love by your "little sister"?

I don't find hot to be drugged without consent no. I went into this convinced to give her the win, all she had to do was literally show up. Yet somehow she managed to ruin everything. As much as it pains me, Ami is completely right. Noriko's idea of love (in this particular case) is just distorted beyond belief - she had no way to know if this would harm him and did it anyway for such a stupid reason.

Like, you searched for this person your entire life, you want to dedicate your entire life for him, and your brilliant plan AFTER HE SAID FOR YOU TO STOP ACTING INSANE is to drug him to win a random competition? my god. Someone give Noriko an award for being the most stupid person alive.

 

[Axismundi]

I don't find hot to be drugged without consent no. I went into this convinced to give her the win, all she had to do was literally show up. Yet somehow she managed to ruin everything. As much as it pains me, Ami is completely right. Noriko's idea of love (in this particular case) is just distorted beyond belief - she had no way to know if this would harm him and did it anyway for such a stupid reason.

Like, you searched for this person your entire life, you want to dedicate your entire life for him, and your brilliant plan AFTER HE SAID FOR YOU TO STOP ACTING INSANE is to drug him to win a random competition? my god. Someone give Noriko an award for being the most stupid person alive.

Complete opposite for me. It showed me that she's COMMITTED to the bit. She took Ami's victory in one fell swoop.

 

[Moonflare]

Can I have seconds, please?

Spoiler: homies

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