Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.43.0] [Selebus]

[alex2011]

I'm not going to respond point by point, it will waste too much time, lead to an even bigger wall of text, and i feel like you shouldn't have wasted your time doing it either. I understand your view, so I'll just try to tackle what i believe to be your main focus.

Is it the player's choice to miss scenes/grind unevenly? Yes, technically speaking it definitely is, but i thought i had made it clear why i called it a non-choice or a meaningless choice.
Is it a consequence to miss the event(s) if you make that choice? Yes, technically speaking it is, it happened because of a choice you made therefore it is a consequence of your choices.

My point that i feel wasn't properly addressed was in the last paragraph. A choice, and the consequences of making that choice are meaningless, and I would even personally call them non-existent (even if they technically aren't) if the player isn't given enough information to understand that the choice they are making will have negative consequences.
Imagine if the game had at one point a choice, between 3 different car brands to pick your favorite. If picking a specific one led to getting locked out of Haru's events later down the line, was that a choice?
Yes. Did it have consequences?
Yes, but even in this game that as you say has a focus on consequences that is just horrible design. Just because it is a choice given to the player and it has consequences it doesn't mean that the whole choice/consequences combo isn't meaningless. The proper way to do it if you had to would be to add a hint, or worst case scenario just plainly tell the player at some point the correct answer. It would ruin the tone of the game but at least it would be a meaningful choice.

The same way as in the example, if the player chooses to grind a character because they like them most there will perhaps be consequences for it. But did the player know that they were making a choice with "severe" consequences? Did they know that it isn't what the game wants them to choose? Again, I'm not speaking about Rin's, or Haru's, or Karin's choices, I'm speaking of any events that you get locked out of without any hints given that they will be locked.

That's why I spoilered my reply, it's a big help in keeping the thread impact to a minimum. Yes, it is the player's choice to grind unevenly and every choice has consequences, good or bad depends on the choice made. In this case, the consequence is either to get stuck by not having enough on a required girl or being catapulted through potentially several missable events and scenarios like Rin's. They are not meaningless choices because their meaning is held within the correct side of that choice. Their meaning is to give that content you miss by grinding too much when you don't grind too much and to punish the players who do grind too much by taking that content away. There is plenty of information given through what happens depending on the player in Rin's scenario. Once you hit that point, you have been warned indirectly that too much grinding is bad because, in order to get the bad result of Rin's scenario, you have to grind too much to get the good one. There is no other way to get the bad result than to bring the stats up to the point where the trigger event occurs. Giving answers defeats the purpose of the content being in game format, Selebus might as well be writing a kinetic novel in that case. That, once again, eliminates the threat of consequences, which is a theme of the game, which would be a big no no. It isn't horrible design, it would be if it was a game following the usual "fuck anything that moves and don't worry about any drawbacks to your actions" type of games that usually show up here, but it's not, it follows real world cause and effect, every choice has some sort of consequence, again either good or bad depending on the choice made, and that is what we see in the game. If you betray Rin and go after Chika, Rin gets hurt by your actions, which you chose to take. That does not render the choice meaningless, it would if and only if, no matter your choice, Rin got hurt by you. The thing you keep calling bad design actually boils down to three words, choices actually matter, which is something a lot of games here that promise to rarely ever deliver. That doesn't just apply to actual conversation choices, it applies to ALL choices regarding the game, including ones made outside of it by the player with only one exception, the choice of to play or not to play, that is the only choice that does not have an in game impact.

 

[Anonym321]

Can someone give me save of last version without using cheats?

 

[Aconitum]

There is plenty of information given through what happens depending on the player in Rin's scenario. Once you hit that point, you have been warned indirectly that too much grinding is bad because, in order to get the bad result of Rin's scenario, you have to grind too much to get the good one.

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Giving answers defeats the purpose of the content being in game format, Selebus might as well be writing a kinetic novel in that case.

It's not binary. The game literally tells you to write down the IP address. It straight up gives you the rules to the game, you either keep this in memory or there will be consequences. Yes, it's not a kinetic novel, but there's a colossal gap between telling the player what they need to do or not do, and being a kinetic novel.

It isn't horrible design, it would be if it was a game following the usual "fuck anything that moves and don't worry about any drawbacks to your actions" type of games that usually show up here, but it's not, it follows real world cause and effect, every choice has some sort of consequence, again either good or bad depending on the choice made, and that is what we see in the game. If you betray Rin and go after Chika, Rin gets hurt by your actions, which you chose to take. That does not render the choice meaningless, it would if and only if, no matter your choice, Rin got hurt by you.

I've said this numerous times before, precisely so it won't be brought up like it just was. I'm not talking about Rin. Rin's choice isn't meaningless, because the player knows the rules, either keep your promise and forgo Chika's events temporarily, or there will be consequences, that's what the player is told.

Don't grind too much or you'll lose out on scenes isn't something the player is told in any form, therefore it is a meaningless choice because the player is led to believe that no matter what there won't be any consequences, unlike Rin's.

 

[NearBlueX]

Can anyone send me the save file for version 14.0 plss because my save file was deleted and i don't wanna go back again

 

[alex2011]

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It's not binary. The game literally tells you to write down the IP address. It straight up gives you the rules to the game, you either keep this in memory or there will be consequences. Yes, it's not a kinetic novel, but there's a colossal gap between telling the player what they need to do or not do, and being a kinetic novel.



I've said this numerous times before, precisely so it won't be brought up like it just was. I'm not talking about Rin. Rin's choice isn't meaningless, because the player knows the rules, either keep your promise and forgo Chika's events temporarily, or there will be consequences, that's what the player is told.

Don't grind too much or you'll lose out on scenes isn't something the player is told in any form, therefore it is a meaningless choice because the player is led to believe that no matter what there won't be any consequences, unlike Rin's.

It isn't a stretch, it should be obvious not to grind too much after that because it happened before. Breaking the promise is only the in universe explanation, the technical explanation is too much grinding because you can ONLY break your promise to Rin by grinding too far. That is now and always has been the issue, grinding too far causes it, so it should set the player up to learn from their mistake and not do it again, which it does to most people, including myself. That only counts as bad game design to you, it does not generally speaking.

There is a colossal gap between having consequences that can't be triggered and having consequences that can be as well. What you are suggesting would result in the former, not the latter. It would eliminate the threat of consequences because the player would be unable to do anything to trigger said consequences. As it is now, not everything in the game has a set of options tied to a consequence and those consequences would be the only ones that remain if the events were made to be required. Missing an opportunity to do something means it is gone forever unless it repeats some time in the future, that is the consequence emulated by the game in this case. Too much time passed in universe and the opportunity to do whatever the event would have allowed with it.

Rin has only been brought up in this exchange as an example, she is not the subject of the exchange. Rin's scenario sets the rule for general purposes, not just for her. What applies to one applies to all in practice. If you're not supposed to grind too much in her case, you're not supposed to in any case. Keeping the promise specifically means not grinding too much in technical terms. As I said before, the only way to set up the trigger for the bad outcome is to grind Chika too far, so that makes grinding too much the cause of Rin's bad outcome in that scenario. After having encountered that, it should then be obvious that it could come up later because rarely, if ever, do games do things only once and never again.

 

[BlackDays]

[Disclaimer]
Words you think i misspelled are no typos at all. They are word inventions made be me which i claim total copyright for.

OK... as i've threatened before im going to realease most of the stuff i've collected so far in a single post (with flaws ofc).
I wont pretend that it will all make sense, i wont say anything is what really is going on, just my thoughts blablabla...
So i cant say this often enough: This is more for people on the same game version (.25p1), for those who want to compare, for those who want to forcefully ruin it for themselfes, for those who want to buy me a new car... (should i open my own patreon? ). Oh and i wont make predictions (at leat not precise ones) about the end of the game... Be warned...

Spoiler: Warning: This is long

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[buff]

I keep trying to access the discord but i always get a "Messages failed to load", any help?

Edit: Wait, so because i don't have permission to send messages i can´t even SEE what people write? That sucks.

Check out the rules forum. I think you have to react to a thing to get privs.

 

[Musicfruit]

I started a new playtrough, because I don't want to be a bad homie anymore and maybe found a oversight.

Spoiler: Sara

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Also are the girls supposed to wear their winter chloathing before evne the beach event?

 

[Aconitum]

It isn't a stretch, it should be obvious not to grind too much after that because it happened before. Breaking the promise is only the in universe explanation, the technical explanation is too much grinding because you can ONLY break your promise to Rin by grinding too far. That is now and always has been the issue, grinding too far causes it, so it should set the player up to learn from their mistake and not do it again, which it does to most people, including myself. That only counts as bad game design to you, it does not generally speaking.

There is a colossal gap between having consequences that can't be triggered and having consequences that can be as well. What you are suggesting would result in the former, not the latter. It would eliminate the threat of consequences because the player would be unable to do anything to trigger said consequences. As it is now, not everything in the game has a set of options tied to a consequence and those consequences would be the only ones that remain if the events were made to be required. Missing an opportunity to do something means it is gone forever unless it repeats some time in the future, that is the consequence emulated by the game in this case. Too much time passed in universe and the opportunity to do whatever the event would have allowed with it.

Rin has only been brought up in this exchange as an example, she is not the subject of the exchange. Rin's scenario sets the rule for general purposes, not just for her. What applies to one applies to all in practice. If you're not supposed to grind too much in her case, you're not supposed to in any case. Keeping the promise specifically means not grinding too much in technical terms. As I said before, the only way to set up the trigger for the bad outcome is to grind Chika too far, so that makes grinding too much the cause of Rin's bad outcome in that scenario. After having encountered that, it should then be obvious that it could come up later because rarely, if ever, do games do things only once and never again.

I don't remember where, but i read somewhere that the ones who come out on top in internet arguments aren't those that are correct, but those that have the most patience to shout at each other. I would rather make the choice to end this discussion here and not test either of us in matters of patience any more. If you still wish for a reply look at my last couple ones, I'd only be repeating myself anyways since you keep bringing up points i have already answered. Have a nice weekend.

[Disclaimer]
Words you think i misspelled are no typos at all. They are word inventions made be me which i claim total copyright for.

OK... as i've threatened before im going to realease most of the stuff i've collected so far in a single post (with flaws ofc).
I wont pretend that it will all make sense, i wont say anything is what really is going on, just my thoughts blablabla...
So i cant say this often enough: This is more for people on the same game version (.16p1), for those who want to compare, for those who want to forcefully ruin it for themselfes, for those who want to buy me a new car... (should i open my own patreon? ). Oh and i wont make predictions about the end of the game... Be warned...

Spoiler: Warning: This is long

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Spoiler

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[alex2011]

I don't remember where, but i read somewhere that the ones who come out on top in internet arguments aren't those that are correct, but those that have the most patience to shout at each other. I would rather make the choice to end this discussion here and not test either of us in matters of patience any more. If you still wish for a reply look at my last couple ones, I'd only be repeating myself anyways since you keep bringing up points i have already answered. Have a nice weekend.

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That is typically correct, the one with the most patience typically ends up the last one still willing to continue. I actually disagree on not giving credence to attempts to piece together what is happening at this point. Though they may, and likely will, turn out incorrect more often than not, they bear the chance of being correct AND it's fun to do even if we end up wrong. As far as the routes, I'm not sure anyone has taken the others into account, I think we're all just focused on the current one. I know I am focused only on what has evidence behind it, which is something that definitely doesn't apply to the other routes at this time.

I have a theory on USER2 that it is a separate version of Sensei, an entirely different personality, maybe even what Maya is looking for. She's hinted or even outright said that the Sensei we play as is not the one she knows or something to that effect and maybe USER2 is. Sort of like a split personality disorder except caused by damage from the jump and only one personality is showing itself for an extended period.

 

[BlackDays]

Hm yeah the users. I dont know why but im continuously mixing them up.

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[KnowNoHope]

I'm just waiting for Maya have an ugly girl cry while screaming how she hates you(sensei) and then sensei just says

Spoiler: happy scene

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and the world just breaks even more

 

[alex2011]

Hm yeah the users. I dont know why but im continuously mixing them up.

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I don't think Maya is a user, but is instead an outside third party that is aware of them. To me, the users seem like different parts of Sensei that manifest differently. I'm not sure which user player Sensei would be.

 

[Aconitum]

I have a theory on USER2 that it is a separate version of Sensei, an entirely different personality, maybe even what Maya is looking for. She's hinted or even outright said that the Sensei we play as is not the one she knows or something to that effect and maybe USER2 is. Sort of like a split personality disorder except caused by damage from the jump and only one personality is showing itself for an extended period.

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Hm yeah the users. I dont know why but im continuously mixing them up.

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I've attached my "notes" file in case it helps. Reader beware that it is without proper formatting and since the inclusion of "weird" happenings outside of happy events my notes have fallen in a medium level of dissarray. Theoretically they should be absolutely correct, since i kept them as i saw them instead of after the fact from memory. I'd appreciate any mistakes being brought up. Their main use should be a quick translation of any binary/hexadecimal/encrypted language the game uses, although they contain some of the more important clues i chose to keep in, such as the colour of Maya's panties.

 

[alex2011]

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I've attached my "notes" file in case it helps. Reader beware that it is without proper formatting and since the inclusion of "weird" happenings outside of happy events my notes have fallen in a medium level of dissarray. Theoretically they should be absolutely correct, since i kept them as i saw them instead of after the fact from memory. I'd appreciate any mistakes being brought up. Their main use should be a quick translation of any binary/hexadecimal/encrypted language the game uses, although they contain some of the more important clues i chose to keep in, such as the colour of Maya's panties.

These things like certain characters acting differently or saying things like what Makoto said are not happening in the reality of the game, only in his head. It happens quite often in other fiction where the MC imagines an entirely different outcome or spoken line than what is actually said or what actually happens. This is why Makoto's jump in "Bluejay" gets reversed, because it never actually happened, though her disappearance and short lived change in behavior did. As player Sensei slowly starts to break down further, something Noriko is exacerbating and Maya is trying to prevent, he sees more and more terrible things begin to happen, but in reality, everyone is just fine. It is only him that is truly suffering. That said, the conditions each girl suffers from, like Rin's depression, are not part of this breakdown, they are quite real. Back on the USER theory, USER2 seems to be a more gentle and caring personality than the other USER, not sure which USER the other is. When we see him actually try to help, that's USER2, but the one trying to get into the girls' panties is the other USER, a USER willing to do anything short of an actual crime at the moment because he knows anything the girls perceive as bad would actual be a detrimental action. Furthermore, because of the more gentle actions of USER2, that gives me reason to believe USER2 is old Sensei, the one from before the events of the game. That's my current theory on the USER situation and what is happening as far as weird moments in the story, anyway.

 

[BlackDays]

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I've attached my "notes" file in case it helps. Reader beware that it is without proper formatting and since the inclusion of "weird" happenings outside of happy events my notes have fallen in a medium level of dissarray. Theoretically they should be absolutely correct, since i kept them as i saw them instead of after the fact from memory. I'd appreciate any mistakes being brought up. Their main use should be a quick translation of any binary/hexadecimal/encrypted language the game uses, although they contain some of the more important clues i chose to keep in, such as the colour of Maya's panties.

First: Thank you for your doc. I'll go through it when im not Hasslehoffed and it isnt 20 past 3 am in the morning in my timezone
But i'll leave you one thing. That is 23. Unless this is some "yeah it means something/i want you to think it means something/ i want you to think that i think it means something and so on (whats the name of that concept?) than 23 means absolutly nothing. Thats where i went with the 23 in my long spoiler. 23 seems to be a magical number (google that). A number that could really get people with arithmomania go off rails. This just might be Selebus going "face your fears" and stuff.

 

[c4145317]

I'll also be posting previews for a side-project I'm developing on

You must be registered to see the links

for anyone who is interested! I'll post one of the characters below to give you a glimpse of the aesthetic. Four more are available in the link.

All donations on both Patreon and SubscribeStar will go toward funding all projects I work on, not just LiL. (Don't worry, LiL will always take priority and I'm only doing this other thing in my spare time)

View attachment 733369

Did this ever go anywhere? While LiL is my crack I am still intrigued.

 

[zekemckillip]

These things like certain characters acting differently or saying things like what Makoto said are not happening in the reality of the game, only in his head. It happens quite often in other fiction where the MC imagines an entirely different outcome or spoken line than what is actually said or what actually happens. This is why Makoto's jump in "Bluejay" gets reversed, because it never actually happened, though her disappearance and short lived change in behavior did. As player Sensei slowly starts to break down further, something Noriko is exacerbating and Maya is trying to prevent, he sees more and more terrible things begin to happen, but in reality, everyone is just fine. It is only him that is truly suffering. That said, the conditions each girl suffers from, like Rin's depression, are not part of this breakdown, they are quite real. Back on the USER theory, USER2 seems to be a more gentle and caring personality than the other USER, not sure which USER the other is. When we see him actually try to help, that's USER2, but the one trying to get into the girls' panties is the other USER, a USER willing to do anything short of an actual crime at the moment because he knows anything the girls perceive as bad would actual be a detrimental action. Furthermore, because of the more gentle actions of USER2, that gives me reason to believe USER2 is old Sensei, the one from before the events of the game. That's my current theory on the USER situation and what is happening as far as weird moments in the story, anyway.

Spoiler: My theories/thoughts

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Edit: added additional explanation to IP bit for clarification incase anyone isn't familiar with IPv6

 

[alex2011]

Spoiler: My theories/thoughts

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Edit: added additional explanation to IP bit for clarification incase anyone isn't familiar with IPv6

I've now amended my theory on the USERS thanks to your own. USER1 is old Sensei, the one that jumped before the events of the game, and is offline becaause of that jump causing too much damage to maintain. USER2 and USER3 got taken out by USER4, and USER4 is player Sensei, the one we play as and the one willing to do whatever gets him into the girls' panties, which is why it is reserved. As far as the ego, superego, and ID, this is why I believe them to be separate personalities entirely caused by some sort of damage induced split personality disorder ccomplete with their own separate sets of ego, superego, and ID.

 

[barglenarglezous]

I've now amended my theory on the USERS thanks to your own. USER1 is old Sensei, the one that jumped before the events of the game, and is offline becaause of that jump causing too much damage to maintain. USER2 and USER3 got taken out by USER4, and USER4 is player Sensei, the one we play as and the one willing to do whatever gets him into the girls' panties, which is why it is reserved. As far as the ego, superego, and ID, this is why I believe them to be separate personalities entirely caused by some sort of damage induced split personality disorder ccomplete with their own separate sets of ego, superego, and ID.

I don't think the ID, Ego, and Superego are individual users. They are not just the components of persona, but also stages of development -- we're born as simply ID, the Ego forms when we need to start learning to satisfy our urges in ways that do not get us in trouble, and finally the Superego forms as society's moral norms begin to influence our thoughts, rather than just our actions.

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