Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.47.0] [Selebus]

[Aegirine]

Ultimately, I think it's pointless to dictate how people should feel about that scene. Some will dislike it because they perceive it as NTR, others for different reasons, and some simply won’t care at all. The only reason it matters is that this is a porn game site, and NTR is a fetish that is disliked by a lot, so devs and players made a point of tagging games that have it.

Personally I don't care even if it is, but if we go strictly by definition, I thinks the Ami-Maya scene does fall into NTR. A lover/love interest is being secretely raped by another character while both know and say she'd rather be with the protagonist, who doesn't know about this happening, never mind consent to it. And she even ends up liking it. It's very blatant if anything. The fact that the other character is also involved with the protagonist doesn't matter. Other lesbians relationships betweens characters do not matter. That stuff is just moving the goal posts. Even if Akira is an aweful self-insert, a lot still consume media with that notion in mind, and thus could perceive it are their lover being stolen.
The reasons why I think this isn't unanimous are :

• Many do not perceive Prime Maya And Nu Maya as the same character, and so are not attached to the latter. I interpret them as the same person, and I'm sure others do.
• The incident was committed by a woman, and no penetration happened. It shouldn't matter, but for some people it does.

Still, I find it very funny how a LiL player, and porn games players in general could potentially be okay with elements in their stories like cheating, self-harm, violence, gore, drug use, mental disabilities, suicide, murder, torture, etc...but NTR is where they draw the line.

 

[barglenarglezous]

It really is crazy how serious the topic of NTR is being treated in this forum.

A first-time dev started a game (Rising Bliss) in which the premise was "in order to combat lowering birth rates, the government puts a chemical in the water that makes people hornier and less concerned about contraception." Everyone was gonna be fucking everyone until prolonged exposure started turning some of them into zombies. It's a silly premise, but I was %100 bought in on it.

The anti-NTR crowd descended upon it, and now the dev isn't making games anymore because of threats he received, and the final product looked NOTHING like what he promised because he bowed to the constant barrage from the anti-NTR crowd.

It's INSANE. I get being upset if it's introduced late in the game without warning, but if a game is set out to include sharing, or in this particular example "No LIs, just fucking", just keep scrolling.

 

[LoveRedHairedGirl]

Once again I will think about what may happen in the future updates.

0.46 is Christmas:

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0.47:

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0.48:

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0.49 is Dorm wars.
Skip thoughts. Accept the cringe (which I like).
But, according to next update, something may happen during Dorm Wars, which make RAS girls gather to the meeting.

0.50 would be very interesting now after what happened in 0.45:

Spoiler

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[barglenarglezous]

Animations? More sex with someone Akira already fucked, I guess. But if those animations would be with someone new... Well, most likely it would be... I don't have any idea.

Animations we are missing that would most definitely happen again if Sensei asked:
Sana oral
Miku oral
Imani oral

Animations we are missing that MIGHT happen again if Sensei asked, provided reset fuckery didn't give us a whole new version of that character (though let's be honest, the new version of that character probably would too)
Maya anything
Nodoka anythinig

Animation we are missing that will make us all uncomfortable if it's added:
Io sex

Animation that has the requisite act unlocked, but probably won't exist for obvious reasons:
Miku sex

No idea where Sel is going to go with this one because of how surreal it was:
Kaori sex

 

[Deleted member 4389531]

The reasons why I think this isn't unanimous are :

• Many do not perceive Prime Maya And Nu Maya as the same character, and so are not attached to the latter. I interpret them as the same person, and I'm sure others do.
• The incident was committed by a woman, and no penetration happened. It shouldn't matter, but for some people it does.

Not quite. We want the terms we use to have meaning and refer to specific, clear ideas so that when communicating we are understood. (this is to say language is a game in which we follow public rules to be mutually understood). English already has a term for what happened here - rape. Your specifications of the lover not knowing about it or not is not particularly relevant to the conversation. There is no ambiguity or lack of clarity here. The problem arises when the term "NTR," which used to refer to something specific, is broadened and used for any violation of purity or loyalty. (In the modern day someone would call rape NTR even if the girl was not in a relationship yet.) This causes problems in that the original term ceases to be useful and becomes kind of a tool for rhetoric - by muddying the waters much like philosophers do, they can better vent hatred while disguising their own insecurities. It is this misuse of language above all else which disturbs me. As the world's foremost leading expert on NTR it is deeply bothersome to see the term itself get fucked up the ass so immensely that it now represents all the evils of the world. And the tag subsequently meaning nothing. It was much more respectable back in 2011 with Elf's seminal release of Gatenkei back before it became a boogeyman in this nature.

(All this said, corruption of language is in fact the natural state of things. As things go I wouldn't be surprised if in 20-30 years "rape" as a term was all but entirely depreciated and everyone just says NTR in all contexts.)

 

[Angiboat]

Ultimately, I think it's pointless to dictate how people should feel about that scene. Some will dislike it because they perceive it as NTR, others for different reasons, and some simply won’t care at all. The only reason it matters is that this is a porn game site, and NTR is a fetish that is disliked by a lot, so devs and players made a point of tagging games that have it.

Personally I just don't like the scene because I'm tired of Selebus putting Ami on a pedestal every single update constantly, like damn other girls exist too.
At least there's finally some pay-off for all these warnings Maya was handing out about Ami supposedly killing people just because, about time that happened.

 

[DeanNoriko]

Still, I find it very funny how a LiL player, and porn games players in general could potentially be okay with elements in their stories like cheating, self-harm, violence, gore, drug use, mental disabilities, suicide, murder, torture, etc...but NTR is where they draw the line.

In my opinion, this just goes to show how the average human being, especially on the male side, often has very prominent ego-centric and narcissistic tendencies.
The suffering and abuse of others is acceptable and sometimes even desirable, however, the moment the MC, and by extension I myself, risk to suffer the slightest bit of inconvenience, humiliation or loss of control, it becomes an issue so extreme that the author must be sick in his mind to ever consider including such a thing in a work of art.

Which might be, if I may be so bold to assume so, one of the reasons many people here in this thread appreciate this particular game.
Sure, it essentially portrays the porn-genre-typical male power fantasy of building a harem of young girls that are all magically enamored with the MC and his horse cock.
However, Akira is not a renamable Marty Stu/Superman who is charming and ultimately bland so that the player can self-insert into him. Akira is a piece of shit, a creep, he has many faults and basically you'd have to be either very weird or extremely confident to openly admit to identify with him. But that's the thing, he is much more identifiable and understandable as a character, because he has character.
You do not see him as an extension of yourself, most of the time, but as a distinct character with his own desires, needs and thoughts that you follow within a story.
Which is also a great argument for many people on here that would wish this game was a kinetic novel, but that is an entirely different discussion.

Now, going back to people who are shocked with seeing NTR-adjacent content showing up in this game:
I would assume those players see the game differently from "us" and do insert themselves into the role of the MC and do feel like they lose control and are attacked personally when a potential LI is being sexed up by somebody else, regardless of the context apparently (I am still baffled how that scene could count as NTR but whatever).

I could be wrong of course so feel free to argue with me on this, we have enough time until the next update anyway

 

[idiotamerican]

a little worried the most recent update cheapened some past maya scenes, e.g. beach. i think that's where the game was at its strongest

hope the trend doesn't continue

 

[Deleted member 4389531]

In my opinion, this just goes to show how the average human being, especially on the male side, has very prominent ego-centric and narcissistic tendencies.
The suffering and abuse of others is acceptable and sometimes even desirable, however, the moment the MC, and by extension I myself, risk to suffer the slightest bit of inconvenience, humiliation or loss of control, it becomes an issue so extreme that the author must be sick in his mind to ever consider including such a thing in a work of art.

Which might be, if I may be so bold to assume so, one of the reasons many people here in this thread appreciate this particular game.
Sure, it essentially portrays the porn-genre-typical male power fantasy of building a harem of young girls that are all magically enamored with the MC and his horse cock.
However, Akira is not a renamable Marty Stu/Superman who is charming and ultimately bland so that the player can self-insert into him. Akira is a piece of shit, a creep, he has many faults and basically you'd have to be either very weird or extremely confident to openly admit to identify with him. But that's the thing, he is much more identifiable and understandable as a character, because he has character.
You do not see him as an extension of yourself, most of the time, but as a distinct character with his own desires, needs and thoughts that you follow within a story.
Which is also a great argument for many people on here that would wish this game was a kinetic novel, but that is an entirely different discussion.

Now, going back to people who are shocked with seeing NTR-adjacent content showing up in this game:
I would assume those players see the game differently from "us" and do insert themselves into the role of the MC and do feel like they lose control and are attacked personally when a potential LI is being sexed up by somebody else, regardless of the context apparently (I am still baffled how that scene could count as NTR but whatever).

I could be wrong of course so feel free to argue with me on this, we have enough time until the next update anyway

Extremely based posted from Dean as expected.

The recent football shenanigans in the update have really called back to mind ancient thoughts of the various Senseis being various players as a kind of multiverse of self-insertion. (In a sense, each of we players self-inserting into our own sensei in each of our own games of LiL which are each its own universe). Although it's not an option for us to act so singularly, we can conceive of a theoretical self-inserter who upon finding themselves in the Spider's Web would be content to just make choices that romance Karin and watch football. This seems like a potential idea/theme that the game is going for. "The world is made for you" - for Sensei, or for fiction-readers?

 

[DeSkel15]

On the topic of 'Right As Rain', something that Ami (Prime) said really got my synapses firing. (Basically everything she said, did, tbh)

Does Maya want to avoid sharing Ami?, especially with who Ami seemed to allude to here:

Spoiler

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Wouldn't be the first sexual abuser of hers that she hates sharing, or the first that she fell for, or in this context, the first to ditch her for a pink haired rival.

If so, then how has this affected Maya Prime's words and actions when it comes to Ami? Any Ami.

 

[TBone9]

It really is crazy how serious the topic of NTR is being treated in this forum.
Like, imagine that someone just registered on here to leave a 1-star review for this game after (as they themselves said) 100 hours of gameplay, simply because a character, who might not even be who we think they are, is getting raped. And calling it classic NTR as well, which is just factually incorrect.

What even a whiff of one NTR-adjacent scene does to these people:

Spoiler: NTR outrage

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[joryuken]

if you want to get really technical here, otoha ntr'd the shit out of akira with rin*mind you I already know that rin is basically a really horny bi sexual person*also fuck otoha and just bury her underground that was the worst character selebus could have ever written

 

[shmurfer]

0.48:

Spoiler

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It could be filling in missing scenes for people who could be invited over but that's boring to speculate about. I mentioned this earlier but if we're assuming these scenes are going to be new content (so first instance of being able to touch / fuck thse characters) then there's fun to be had. Assuming the animations are for characters getting new events in the same update, the only person who we've done any H with here is Maki, so could be a full Maki induction with blowjob and sex and maybe a third thing I can't think of. Or it would probably be one of the characters with 3 events, so Yumi or Uta.

 

[Riolol]

if you want to get really technical here, otoha ntr'd the shit out of akira with rin*mind you I already know that rin is basically a really horny bi sexual person*also fuck otoha and just bury her underground that was the worst character selebus could have ever written

Lesbian "sex" is too hot to count as NTR

 

[Moonflare]

Still, I find it very funny how a LiL player, and porn games players in general could potentially be okay with elements in their stories like cheating, self-harm, violence, gore, drug use, mental disabilities, suicide, murder, torture, etc...but NTR is where they draw the line.

well, because ntr is the only one in that group that causes the corruption of a fantasy fulfillment scenario. I notice that you put ntr and cheating apart from eachother, from which I presume that you're talking ntr as the fetish example of cheating - so that'd make it even more self evident.

Spoiler: further thoughts

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tldr is that ntr is by its very nature different from all of these other tags, from which I draw no surprise at people being able to have problems with it, even if they don't with everything else.

1. The suffering and abuse of others is acceptable and sometimes even desirable, however, the moment the MC, and by extension I myself, risk to suffer the slightest bit of inconvenience, humiliation or loss of control, it becomes an issue so extreme that the author must be sick in his mind to ever consider including such a thing in a work of art.

2. You do not see him as an extension of yourself, most of the time, but as a distinct character with his own desires, needs and thoughts that you follow within a story.

3. I would assume those players see the game differently from "us" and do insert themselves into the role of the MC and do feel like they lose control and are attacked personally when a potential LI is being sexed up by somebody else

1. Exactly, it's about the forced perspective of "the victim".

2. Yes, I also think that Akira being his own character is one of the cornerstones of LiL working.

3. I mean, not necessarily? What you describe might certainly apply to a lot of people, but I think other examples might also be true. I can feel revulsion at Maya being raped because I like Maya as a character, and don't want her to be hurt - regardless of her cheating on Akira or not. Or I can simply abhor cheating as a concept, and would not like to see it (as I'd assume people that don't follow the Haruka storyline do).

Spoiler: on feeling jaded

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Lesbian "sex" is too hot to count as NTR

I have so much to say about this. So I'll say nothing Waiting for Otoha to get doggystyled/slapped the fuck out of her though, her ass is her one redeeming feature.

 

[Moonflare]

Nodoka anythinig

Hear me out: What if the next headpat is with Nodoka? Remember how she hugged Akira and wished she had done that a long time ago? She asked Akira to stop her from researching, what if he does that through the wholesome route?

Edit: And honestly, never saw this coming, and it will be a win for DeSkel for me to say it, but I really hope Nodoka gets some rest. Poor girl deserves it.

 

[joryuken]

well, because ntr is the only one in that group that causes the corruption of a fantasy fulfillment scenario. I notice that you put ntr and cheating apart from eachother, from which I presume that you're talking ntr as the fetish example of cheating - so that'd make it even more self evident.

Spoiler: further thoughts

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tldr is that ntr is by its very nature different from all of these other tags, from which I draw no surprise at people being able to have problems with it, even if they don't with everything else.

1. Exactly, it's about the forced perspective of "the victim".

2. Yes, I also think that Akira being his own character is one of the cornerstones of LiL working.

3. I mean, not necessarily? What you describe might certainly apply to a lot of people, but I think other examples might also be true. I can feel revulsion at Maya being raped because I like Maya as a character, and don't want her to be hurt - regardless of her cheating on Akira or not. Or I can simply abhor cheating as a concept, and would not like to see it (as I'd assume people that don't follow the Haruka storyline do).

Spoiler: on feeling jaded

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I have so much to say about this. So I'll say nothing Waiting for Otoha to get doggystyled/slapped the fuck out of her though, it's her one redeeming feature.

see moonflare gets me xD

 

[Riolol]

I have so much to say about this. So I'll say nothing Waiting for Otoha to get doggystyled/slapped the fuck out of her though, it's her one redeeming feature.

I'll just take that as you agreeing with me.

 

[Moonflare]

I'll just take that as you agreeing with me.

I'm really not

Also, just to address many of the posts I have not been reacting to regarding theories and overall impressions of the last update, I'll be doing that in one go as things calm down. There's a lot to go over.

 

[Apollo259]

There really is no telling since it's one of those things Sel hasn't brought up again. It could be all three, she could be Saki reincarnated or something else. It's probably one of those obscure things wehere if you figure this out you solve the game.

Spoiler: Key?

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