- Mar 17, 2021
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We have to kill some time... with bears, trebuchets, advanced aerodynamics... or any kind of cold or lukewarm weapons. Up to update, at least...
- Thread starter naughtyroad
- Start date
- Oct 1, 2017
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Fantasy is easier. As crime novels are way more complex.
Crime novels are a small percentage of the publishers portfolio so the few writers who can actually make a living from that and get big bucks is shockingly small. However those few writers are masters of their craft.
George R.R Martin for example managed to convince half the world that a crime novel called "A Song of Ice and Fire" is a "Fantasy Novel" Yes there are dragons and magic and all that stuff but in essence it's about families trying to kill each other without getting caught in the process of plotting the murder of all their enemies. A crime novel disguised as fantasy.
Crime Novels are insanely complex as you either need the entire thing saved inside your head 24/7 or you write the ending first and the beginning last as you try to fix all the plot holes in the middle while also trying to not end up with lose ends or contradictions. Who did what when? Who knew? Who has motives? etc. The more characters you make the more complex the thing gets.
This not only limits your option to your skill level but also your creativity as you can't make stuff up as you go and always have to rethink an entire plot line or character to not fuck the entire thing up.
Thats entirely different on fantasy. The portfolio for publishers is gigantic. Some publishers even only publish fantasy novels and nothing else.
Something is unbelievable? It's magic, a curse, dragon blood, pact with the devil etc. Your way on how the story goes is only limited by what you can imagine. Way less stressfull and way better to achieve stuff.
Same goes for VN's on this board. If you write tons of characters and multiple plot lines your entire work on writing alone just multiplied into insanity. This is why you got tons of games with one generic bimbo girl after another who have character depth as deep as a thimble and you forget about 5 minutes later.
If you keep it compact however you can focus on the characters more in detail and fledge out their personality. Character depth becomes as deep and wide as the ocean and the characters you created fit better into the plot or main story in a more comfortable and natural way.
At least thats my experience.
High literature? Reminds me of rereading Faust.
- Dec 19, 2019
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In this case I would have to use the old proverb: ...... like the devil reads the bible!
He clearly stated that the crimes he could put out were meer misdemeanors in comparison while fantasy was his true calling.
Am I on the right path, Miðgarðsormr?
- Jan 21, 2021
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It's a sad truth that there are relatively few actual writers among the game developers here, but naughtyroad is among those few. I read all of his posts as much for how he says things as for what he says!
- Feb 19, 2019
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Maybe this thread could serve as a book-of-the-month-club in between updates
- Oct 1, 2017
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Sums it up nicely
Nice i start.Maybe this thread could serve as a book-of-the-month-club in between updates
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- Jun 18, 2019
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I'll be damned...Nice i start.
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Miðgarðsormr Cool. I used to try and write fantasy novels but then I gave up so never thought that much about crime novels. Read a few when I was in high school but that's about it. Game of Thrones being described as a crime novel is actually pretty interesting. Never thought about it like that so thanks for that bit of insight.
- Oct 18, 2021
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- Feb 3, 2021
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Lunatics !!!! i will have you know my tinfoil hat is on straight good sir.What's the point in whining about update releases. Either go do something else or join in on the trebuchet and bear poetry like the rest of the lunatics.
Anyway long time no see everyone. Looking forward to be playing 3 updates at once the next one releases. It's going to be great!
- Feb 19, 2019
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Indeed. A tinfoil hat is part of the basic equipment of any safety-conscious trebuchet operator.Lunatics !!!! i will have you know my tinfoil hat is on straight good sir.
THIS! What's so hard to understand about this? People rage here for devs that are "milking" the supporters like they have no choice but to send their hard earned money to the devs, what the actual fuck?!It is however possible to just join for a couple of months or however long you think the Story is worth and then unsubscribe.
Would be good if people could go on with their life and do literally anything else than checking sites every 5 minutes for a new update then getting mad because some shit takes time(or they got fucked over, happens) and people do other stuff than making a porn game for others.
What about the gacha games, lootboxes and all the predatory mobile games with 2000% value 100$ bundles? Nah, that's fine, you're not forced to pay for it...oh wait, this sounds familiar.
- May 6, 2017
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Bro, I certainly understand your love for the developer and the game, but to earn 3500 hours in 17 months, you have to work 7 hours a day, without weekends, vacations and holidays. And given the technical concept of any RenPy VN, with such a workflow, he would have finished it long ago.
Actually, 12 hours each on the weekend days, 3 hours on four weekdays, and another 12 on the 5th. Seems like a lot, but really, when I was still gaming instead of dev'ing I'd put in those hours too, and I'm having just as much fun as I was before (well, apart from the parts where I have to wade through the never-ending stream of drivel from certain vacuous twerps). Vacations, those sound great. I get vacation days on the second job, you know? They go into LomL too.
The remark about ren'py shows an embarrassing amount of ignorance wrt the process of creation VN, really. Like there's no visuals to create and render out in Daz, postwork and tranform scripting to perform, actual writing of dialog to do. You know, the actual bits that make up the VN? The bits of ren'py programming hardly make up 5% of all the work, if that.
My god, these whinging boys that think that, just because they got a degree in engineering, they are able to deduce how the entire world should work from first principles from behind their keyboards, and don't hesitate to jump up on their high horses of entitlement at the first notion actual reality dares refuse their flawless reasoning, they'll be the death of me. Just walk an actual mile in my shoes before you open your mouth, will you?
- Oct 1, 2017
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You only count 3500 hours of work at RenPy. Not including writing, setting up scenes, models, creating background or buying it if avaliable etc.
Thats like saying you only need 5 weeks to write a book. Yes sherlock only the typing part can be done in that short time. But you have to "LITERALLY MAKE EVERYTHING UP IN YOUR HEAD"
Sometimes i wonder if ppl even know how creative work is done....
Heehee, beat you too it. But yeah, this constant insistence to reduce everything down to a technical problem.
I wonder how long it takes before the first techbro comes along that suggests just using chatGPT to do the writing is a way to churn out updates faster because, you know, it's a tedious bit of manual work no one really wants, with no actual value beyond getting to publish a wordcount with your update.
- Jan 9, 2020
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Hmmmmm....I'd look at a ChatGPT created VN just for the absolute craziness!Heehee, beat you too it. But yeah, this constant insistence to reduce everything down to a technical problem.
I wonder how long it takes before the first techbro comes along that suggests just using chatGPT to do the writing is a way to churn out updates faster because, you know, it's a tedious bit of manual work no one really wants, with no actual value beyond getting to publish a wordcount with your update.
In the meantime, you do you NR, the majority of us are behind you.
- Feb 14, 2018
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Picking up on Miðgarðsormr's very apt analogy,
It's been 100% certain since day zero that NR is an individual who wants to build his VN the way he's chosen to do it and he's well aware of the options and has chosen what's best for him. If he was misleading anyone or making false promises to supporters, criticism is warranted, obviously. But that's never ever been the case here.
I think a lot of posts starting with "I've got so much more experience and I know everything the Dev is doing wrong and blah blah blah" is near enough 100% disingenuous. I've had to work with very well educated graduate interns and new recruits at several points during my various careers and, while they can have great ideas they think that's all there is to it - "Just Do It!" No one who has actually had to get stuff built, deployed, and maintained - you know, actually had to spearhead a project from start to finish - would be critical of NR given the circumstances he's set himself up in and the way he's chosen to work. They'd actually applaud him for having a sustainable project design that ensures it doesn't fall short of standards.
What we should consider valid criticism varies from Dev to Dev, game to game, here on F95. It depends on the developer's ambition and motiviation, the commitments they've made to paying (and non-paying) supporters, the community they want to build around their project, and the product they want to deliver.
It's been 100% certain since day zero that NR is an individual who wants to build his VN the way he's chosen to do it and he's well aware of the options and has chosen what's best for him. If he was misleading anyone or making false promises to supporters, criticism is warranted, obviously. But that's never ever been the case here.
I think a lot of posts starting with "I've got so much more experience and I know everything the Dev is doing wrong and blah blah blah" is near enough 100% disingenuous. I've had to work with very well educated graduate interns and new recruits at several points during my various careers and, while they can have great ideas they think that's all there is to it - "Just Do It!" No one who has actually had to get stuff built, deployed, and maintained - you know, actually had to spearhead a project from start to finish - would be critical of NR given the circumstances he's set himself up in and the way he's chosen to work. They'd actually applaud him for having a sustainable project design that ensures it doesn't fall short of standards.
- Jul 4, 2017
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Greatly depends who does the work.
You have programmers and you have master programmers.
You have artists, and you have amazing artists.
.....
Job vocation does NOT dictate the speed of work.
Ones knowledge, resolve and discipline does.
Tbh, I think that's an oversimplification. A highly skilled programmer can do a junior programmer's job in a fraction of the time. A highly skilled artist is able to produce something on par with the best a beginning artist has to offer with a few expertly placed strokes of a pencil. But to see both of them performing at the top of their skill, given free rein to create the absolute best they can? That takes them time as well. Perhaps more than a beginner in some cases, as their repertoire is so much wider than that of beginners and there's so much more they can do to refine their work.
And tell me honestly, have you ever worked in a company where the most skilled software developer is the one with the lightest workload? That sounds like none of the companies I ever worked for.