Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.10.7 Hotfix] [Innoxia]

[SordidDreams]

Putting everything into Dominion is already a problem, there's too much there already, so that is not an option.

Only from a technical point of view, because the game is poorly coded and can't handle it (which obviously needs to be addressed regardless). From a game design point of view, the map is populated rather sparsely, with the vast majority of tiles completely empty aside from interchangeable randomly generated NPCs.

If you don't like 'tedious travel,' then the open world concept is simply not for you and you might want to find a different game because this game follows the open world concept.

Guess what, nobody likes tedious travel. That's why every single open-world game includes a fast travel mechanic, to allow you to skip it. Which rather defeats the point of having that vast world in the first place, wouldn't you say?

Skyrim, which you mention in your next reply, also follows this concept and there is A LOT of walking in it. There is A LOT more than just one city in Skyrim, it is an entire country sized area.

Yes, that's my point exactly. There's a lot to find in Skyrim. As I said, you can pick a direction and within a few minutes you'll come across something interesting. Given the pace of development so far, how long do you think it's going to take Inno to populate the overworld map to a similar density?

 

[Scapdra1]

And even if you disregard the technical issues with the game, it becoming extremely clear that Inno has little interest (and possibly ability) in continuing the main story. Hell, she doesn't seem to like working on the side content either.

 

[alex2011]

Only from a technical point of view, because the game is poorly coded and can't handle it (which obviously needs to be addressed regardless). From a game design point of view, the map is populated rather sparsely, with the vast majority of tiles completely empty aside from interchangeable randomly generated NPCs.


Guess what, nobody likes tedious travel. That's why every single open-world game includes a fast travel mechanic, to allow you to skip it. Which rather defeats the point of having that vast world in the first place, wouldn't you say?


Yes, that's my point exactly. There's a lot to find in Skyrim. As I said, you can pick a direction and within a few minutes you'll come across something interesting. Given the pace of development so far, how long do you think it's going to take Inno to populate the overworld map to a similar density?

No, it is a problem because the city is already overcrowded. That's not a technical issue, that's a too much to do in one spot out of nine issue.

Nobody likes it, but that's what you get in an open world game like this. I actually don't mind it and love open world games, which is what drew me to this one. You also just solved your own issue in this reply, just use fast travel if you don't want to walk. No, it does not defeat the purpose, in fact, if Inno were ever to implement a quest with a limit on how long you can take to complete it with a failure condition if you take too long, fast travel would be a very important asset even within Dominion.

It won't take as long as you think if Inno spreads some of the overcrowded content in Dominion out into the other areas, but it is going to take a long time. An open world game like this is already inherently a long term project, so length of development, outside the issue of Inno's lack thereof, is not an issue.

And even if you disregard the technical issues with the game, it becoming extremely clear that Inno has little interest (and possibly ability) in continuing the main story. Hell, she doesn't seem to like working on the side content either.

Then why does Inno persist other than money? Or is money their only concern now? If they don't like it, just abandon it and move on.

 

[throbzombie]

In a game with graphics, yes. In a text game, hell no.

Of course, text-based games get a lot more breathing room in this regard, but I still think you need decorative "wasted" space on a map like LT where space and proportion are clearly defined.

You sure seem to draw the line in a weird place, though. Personally, my suspension of disbelief was irrevocably shattered when the game explained to me during the tutorial that clothes magically adjust size to fit the wearer. I'm sure that was done to enhance believability, to account for the gameplay mechanic of looting and wearing clothes from enemies of a different size than the player character, but for me it did the exact opposite. Wherever you draw the line between realism and believability, it seems to me LT is unconcerned with either.

There is an ocean between realism and believeablilty. Realism is faithfulness to rules the real world, whereas believeability is faithfulness to the rules of the setting, which can be anything. Now, the rules of a setting are generally assumed to be close to reality unless otherwise specified, so while you would expect something you drop to fall to the ground in LT, using magic to charge your phone, or refit your clothes, fits within the rules of the setting and so, while it is not realistic, it is believeable. The Arcane, which is a thing that exists in this story and not real life, is said to be able to do that, so it does. Now, if you could enchant clothes to turn you into a demon, something that the Arcane can't do on its own, then that would break immersion. And rules that are assumed, like gravity, or needing to eat food to survive, should be obeyed.

Basically, to be believeable, things should be plausible and consistent, if not realistic.

If you can have a cave network under the city filled with glowing mushrooms and slime people, I see no reason why you couldn't have a similarly secluded area filled with jungle and populated by a primitive tribe or something. Like maybe an abandoned and overgrown botanical garden somewhere on the outskirts of the city or something. I'd certainly find that a lot more believable than having real jungle and a real Mesoamerican city fifty miles from London.

Well, the kinds of people you'd meet in Dominion are probably much different from the kind of people you'd meet in the jungle map. And yeah, similar environments will produce similar kinds people, all other factors being equal, but that only strengthens my point.

As for that last sentence, see above.

 

[H3ntaiMaster69]

And even if you disregard the technical issues with the game, it becoming extremely clear that Inno has little interest (and possibly ability) in continuing the main story. Hell, she doesn't seem to like working on the side content either.

I have a feeling that after the game becomes "fully" moddable, she'll drop it and maybe give the lead to someone else. A lot of games on this site have gone through the same thing and most of the time, the dev either abandons it completely or gives the lead to someone else.

 

[riji]

Feels like this game is a one big fat memory leak.

Also, what are possible outcomes of the Helena dates? Does she always turn into a turboslut, or is it connected to a "break her" option?

 

[Scapdra1]

I have a feeling that after the game becomes "fully" moddable, she'll drop it and maybe give the lead to someone else. A lot of games on this site have gone through the same thing and most of the time, the dev either abandons it completely or gives the lead to someone else.

Honestly at this point in time that would be the best thing to happen. The game would get a revival in terms of content and Inno will be able to go work on project she is actually invested in as opposed to one she feels obligated to work on.

 

[SordidDreams]

the city is already overcrowded

No? Not in any way, shape, or form? Again, look to Skyrim for how things should be in an open-world game. The towns are small, but every house can be entered, and every NPC has unique dialogue (aside from guards, who are deliberately faceless and interchangeable so you can kill them guilt-free). Currently Dominion is more like Daggerfall. Hundreds of buildings, but only like ten can be entered, and only a very limited number of unique NPCs. Point isn't, Skyrim doesn't have more content, it just has less non-content.

You also just solved your own issue in this reply

Fast travel is a band-aid, not a solution.

It won't take as long as you think if Inno spreads some of the overcrowded content in Dominion out into the other areas

I'm still a little hazy on why you think that's a good idea. That's literally adding nothing other than empty space to waste your time traversing.

Of course, text-based games get a lot more breathing room in this regard, but I still think you need decorative "wasted" space on a map like LT where space and proportion are clearly defined.

You need some, yes, but far less than currently exists even within Dominion, where only a handful of its hundreds of tiles have anything interesting in them. If you look at the overworld map and how many tiles there are between Dominion and Elis? The amount of content that would have to be produced to populate that area to any reasonable degree of density would dwarf what currently exists in the game.

The Arcane, which is a thing that exists in this story and not real life, is said to be able to do that, so it does.

The point of my example was that the Arcane can do whatever the dev requires, no matter how silly. If the Arcane can believably account for the gamey ability to equip looted clothes and for the gamey ability to punch people into being uncontrollably attracted to you and the gamey ability to have children without having to raise them, why couldn't it account for the gamey ability to encounter jungle critters in an overgrown section of the city? You accept the existence of an all-powerful magical force that is already being used to blatantly justify the existence of a whole boatload of gamey stuff you like, but you don't seem to realize it can just as easily be used to justify whatever other gamey stuff you dislike. As a result, your believability argument doesn't hold water.

 

[throbzombie]

You need some, yes, but far less than currently exists even within Dominion, where only a handful of its hundreds of tiles have anything interesting in them. If you look at the overworld map and how many tiles there are between Dominion and Elis? The amount of content that would have to be produced to populate that area to any reasonable degree of density would dwarf what currently exists in the game.

Well, let's just agree to disagree on how much free space is too much. It takes one hour to cross one tile in the Fields at walking rate, and average walking speed is roughly 3 mph or 5 km/h. Assuming that there aren't many obstacles in the PC's path, that means that each Fields tile is about 9 square miles, or 23.3 sq km. It's up to you if that's a reasonable amount of empty space.

The point of my example was that the Arcane can do whatever the dev requires, no matter how silly. If the Arcane can believably account for the gamey ability to equip looted clothes and for the gamey ability to punch people into being uncontrollably attracted to you and the gamey ability to have children without having to raise them, why couldn't it account for the gamey ability to encounter jungle critters in an overgrown section of the city? Your believability argument doesn't hold water when you accept the existence of an all-powerful magical force that is already being used to blatantly justify the existence of a whole boatload of gamey stuff, because it can just as easily be used to justify whatever other gamey stuff you don't consider believable.

The Arcane does what the author says it does, and doesn't do what the author says it doesn't. Now, you can say it can be used as a crutch, but that's a separate issue. It doesn't break established rules of the setting. And I didn't mean the character's race. Obviously, you could encounter any species in Dominion, and probably in the jungle, pending a lore expansion, but the kind of person you encounter. You wouldn't expect to come across a silk hate-wearing fop in the jungle, but they'd be perfectly at home within the walls of the political capital of the world. If you did see one, you'd at least want an explanation as to why he was there, because he'd be out of place. You'd also expect to come across a much greater proportion of area-specific races in their home environment than the Dominion pot.

Finally, you consider magic, fucking magic, to be unbelieveble in a fantasy setting? An entirely different reality, with its own laws, is unbelievable because there's this amazing energy source that wouldn't work in the real world. No, I don't believe in magic, because it doesn't exist in the real world. I believe that it does exist in Lilith's Throne, so yeah, it's very believable that the Arcane can resize your clothing for you. It's a perfectly sensible explanation for any weirdness that goes on in the game.

If the Arcane can believably account for the gamey ability to equip looted clothes and for the gamey ability to punch people into being uncontrollably attracted to you and the gamey ability to have children without having to raise them, why couldn't it account for the gamey ability to encounter jungle critters in an overgrown section of the city

I didn't say it couldn't.

 

[Sarkath]

Anyone who has control over the GitHub as far as what pushes to it get accepted, which is Inno and only Inno in this case, can deny anything they wish. It would be a terrible idea, but Inno CAN do it.

Kinda. Inno controls the main LT repo, but GitHub allows you to fork repos. The person who forks the repo (heh) is put in control of the their repo in much the same way as Inno is in control of the main one.

The best way to think about this is to imagine a tree, with the main repo being the trunk and the forked repos (and their children) being branches. The idea of that is two-fold. It allows developers to make changes to their own repo and push said changes (via a pull request) upstream to the main repo, and it also allows third parties to create their own disparate version of the repo. This happens pretty often in the open source community. If someone disagrees with the direction a project is heading they can fork it and continue development on their own terms, or if the project is straight up dead it'll allow them to continue it. Since git allows devs to tie in multiple remote repos into one project, they still maintain the ability to pull in improvements from upstream.

So, basically, the only thing Inno would be able to do to bring down forks would be to DMCA them, and that's a very fast way to become vilified.

 

[anon707]

No? Not in any way, shape, or form? Again, look to Skyrim for how things should be in an open-world game. The towns are small, but every house can be entered, and every NPC has unique dialogue (aside from guards, who are deliberately faceless and interchangeable so you can kill them guilt-free). Currently Dominion is more like Daggerfall. Hundreds of buildings, but only like ten can be entered, and only a very limited number of unique NPCs. Point isn't, Skyrim doesn't have more content, it just has less non-content.

LOL why is SKYRIM of all games your goto example for an open world game??? Skyrim's """"""""cities""""""""" are pathetic. Lore wise the largest cities have like 10-15 people that live in them. Thats not a fucking city, thats barely a hamlet let alone a village. Oh yay, you can enter all the buildings and all the character there have "unique" dialogue... that they repeat every 5 seconds. Not to mention a bundle of the characters are labeled essential so you cant kill half of them anyway.

There's a reason why this game has to be modded hell to back to make it even halfway decent.

 

[Deane9850]

On the

You must be registered to see the links

, there are 2 version on Scarlet, a shemale and a female. How do I get the female version? The current Scarlet I have is a shemale.

 

[tehlemon]

So, basically, the only thing Inno would be able to do to bring down forks would be to DMCA them, and that's a very fast way to become vilified.

You say that, but she could actually cause a lot of trouble by just siccing her fanbase on people.

It's the main thing I'm worried about.

On the

You must be registered to see the links

, there are 2 version on Scarlet, a shemale and a female. How do I get the female version? The current Scarlet I have is a shemale.

Go through Helena's romance quest. As soon as she demands you give Scarlett back to her the game resets Scarlett completely (without acknowledging what happened) and then she basically asks you "chick or dude?"

 

[SordidDreams]

Well, let's just agree to disagree on how much free space is too much. It takes one hour to cross one tile in the Fields at walking rate, and average walking speed is roughly 3 mph or 5 km/h. Assuming that there aren't many obstacles in the PC's path, that means that each Fields tile is about 9 square miles, or 23.3 sq km. It's up to you if that's a reasonable amount of empty space.

It doesn't matter how large the tiles are in terms of land area, what matters is how many there are and how many would therefore need to be populated with content for the area to not feel too sparse. Which is too many.

you can say it can be used as a crutch, but that's a separate issue

No, it's not, it's the core of the argument. If you accept the existence of the Arcane and all the silly stuff it already does, then you have no basis for claiming that this or that would not be believable. All that needs to be done to make literally anything believable according to your existing standards is append "because the Arcane did it" at the end of the description of the offending element.

It's a perfectly sensible explanation for any weirdness that goes on in the game.

My. Point. Precisely.

why is SKYRIM of all games your goto example for an open world game?

Because it's the one everyone is familiar with, and I want to be understood when I try to communicate an idea using an example.

 

[Tempor]

shallow is the best word i can use to describe this game. it has (had?) potential but it lost its focus. at the very first glance the game seems great with alot to do and customize but you quickly see its almost all for nothing. the game doesnt recognize any of your choices and feels like its on rails with different choices presenting a somewhat different text for that specific scene but the overall result is always the same and thats bad for a game that proposes to be an open world rpg-esque one

ive decided to check it again after the recent update and it feels like almost nothing changed in the last year and half, and i dont know how it was from even earlier builds.
sure you got a gorillion more subspecies but are they even really needed? couldnt mod support have been implemented earlier and more thoroughly so people can insert and share their favorite brand of furry by themselves and leave the dev to do actual meaningful development? if the game was more modular people could even create their NPCs and side missions and whatnot and submit it to the dev for review
having tons of children while fun and fetish fulfilling for some doesnt amount to anything other than crash or slow the game down to a crawl. NPCs dont differ at all and are very very limited in their interactions you would think they would interact differently towards you if you are anything other than human for example

The Arcane does what the author says it does, and doesn't do what the author says it doesn't. Now, you can say it can be used as a crutch, but that's a separate issue. It doesn't break established rules of the setting.

you cant be serious. its just bad storytelling having a single magic concept/device explain every single thing that doesnt comform to real life standards and hand wave it as "its magic bro" thats some harry potter level shit. i think what SordidDreams was refering to was that its preferable for the issue of the size clothes not be adressed and having it as an acceptable break from reality for gameplay purposes and not have the player think about it rather than having a bad attempt at an in universe explanation and having the player rolling their eyes and going "yeah right"

 

[PussyPassAnon]

View attachment 1050887
apparently the npc limit isn't an actual issue

All I had to do was search the text and found the person responsible for it. I sincerely believe censoring the identity is pointless, here. But, if that is, somehow, what's driving all this post deletion (imagine being afraid of having your already anonymous identity shown around on a forum, on the internet, where anyone can just screenshot your name at any time), then I'll laugh at the absurdity of it.

 

[alex2011]

I have a feeling that after the game becomes "fully" moddable, she'll drop it and maybe give the lead to someone else. A lot of games on this site have gone through the same thing and most of the time, the dev either abandons it completely or gives the lead to someone else.

As is best for the project, Inno is in way over their head and is not taking the necessary steps even if they could handle this thing.

No? Not in any way, shape, or form? Again, look to Skyrim for how things should be in an open-world game. The towns are small, but every house can be entered, and every NPC has unique dialogue (aside from guards, who are deliberately faceless and interchangeable so you can kill them guilt-free). Currently Dominion is more like Daggerfall. Hundreds of buildings, but only like ten can be entered, and only a very limited number of unique NPCs. Point isn't, Skyrim doesn't have more content, it just has less non-content.


Fast travel is a band-aid, not a solution.


I'm still a little hazy on why you think that's a good idea. That's literally adding nothing other than empty space to waste your time traversing.


You need some, yes, but far less than currently exists even within Dominion, where only a handful of its hundreds of tiles have anything interesting in them. If you look at the overworld map and how many tiles there are between Dominion and Elis? The amount of content that would have to be produced to populate that area to any reasonable degree of density would dwarf what currently exists in the game.


The point of my example was that the Arcane can do whatever the dev requires, no matter how silly. If the Arcane can believably account for the gamey ability to equip looted clothes and for the gamey ability to punch people into being uncontrollably attracted to you and the gamey ability to have children without having to raise them, why couldn't it account for the gamey ability to encounter jungle critters in an overgrown section of the city? You accept the existence of an all-powerful magical force that is already being used to blatantly justify the existence of a whole boatload of gamey stuff you like, but you don't seem to realize it can just as easily be used to justify whatever other gamey stuff you dislike. As a result, your believability argument doesn't hold water.

Again, Skyrim is WAY more than just one area. Lilith's Throne only has one city so far and the planned area of play is more akin to Skyrim, where it is practically an entire country's worth of area to roam and play in. The opposite of content isn't 'non-content,' it's what the fields are now, empty space. The question of having content or not is black and white, you either have it or you don't, and the other planned areas do not while Dominion has it all.

Skyrim doesn't just stuff everything into one single city, I can't play the whole game while never leaving Whiterun, but I CAN play the entirety of Lilith's Throne without ever leaving Dominion. That is a VERY bad thing in an open world game like this or Skyrim because that is the polar opposite of the open world concept.

Fast travel is a band-aid, not a solution.

Wrong, if fast travel is not a solution, then no solution exists and no game should be like Skyrim. Skyrim was open world like this one is and both have a form of fast travel. That's how open world games deal with super long distances.

This makes it sound like you just don't like the open world concept, which is perfectly fine, this game is just not for you, then, but other people do, including the places I currently dislike for game development reasons, like the Discord.

You might want to find another game because this one is planned to go where you don't want it to.

I'm still a little hazy on why you think that's a good idea. That's literally adding nothing other than empty space to waste your time traversing.

Because it would lighten the load Dominion has to bear and at the same time would provide content to the areas you say will be empty. Dominion has WAY too much content in it and that is threatening to leave every other area empty. If Inno spreads the extra Dominion content to the other areas, they will then have content of their own and will no longer be empty.

Kinda. Inno controls the main LT repo, but GitHub allows you to fork repos. The person who forks the repo (heh) is put in control of the their repo in much the same way as Inno is in control of the main one.

The best way to think about this is to imagine a tree, with the main repo being the trunk and the forked repos (and their children) being branches. The idea of that is two-fold. It allows developers to make changes to their own repo and push said changes (via a pull request) upstream to the main repo, and it also allows third parties to create their own disparate version of the repo. This happens pretty often in the open source community. If someone disagrees with the direction a project is heading they can fork it and continue development on their own terms, or if the project is straight up dead it'll allow them to continue it. Since git allows devs to tie in multiple remote repos into one project, they still maintain the ability to pull in improvements from upstream.

So, basically, the only thing Inno would be able to do to bring down forks would be to DMCA them, and that's a very fast way to become vilified.

You know, I didn't even consider forking and Inno can't control forks and I'm pretty sure is unable to control the ability to fork it. I definitely don't see DMCAs happening because, like you said, instant vilification. It would ruin them to even attempt and fail one.

It doesn't matter how large the tiles are in terms of land area, what matters is how many there are and how many would therefore need to be populated with content for the area to not feel too sparse. Which is too many.


No, it's not, it's the core of the argument. If you accept the existence of the Arcane and all the silly stuff it already does, then you have no basis for claiming that this or that would not be believable. All that needs to be done to make literally anything believable according to your existing standards is append "because the Arcane did it" at the end of the description of the offending element.


My. Point. Precisely.


Because it's the one everyone is familiar with, and I want to be understood when I try to communicate an idea using an example.

Not every tile needs to be populated, look at the streets of Dominion now, you literally only have holiday events and that stupid cow morph event, nothing else goes on, so they are, for all intents and purposes, empty.

shallow is the best word i can use to describe this game. it has (had?) potential but it lost its focus. at the very first glance the game seems great with alot to do and customize but you quickly see its almost all for nothing. the game doesnt recognize any of your choices and feels like its on rails with different choices presenting a somewhat different text for that specific scene but the overall result is always the same and thats bad for a game that proposes to be an open world rpg-esque one

ive decided to check it again after the recent update and it feels like almost nothing changed in the last year and half, and i dont know how it was from even earlier builds.
sure you got a gorillion more subspecies but are they even really needed? couldnt mod support have been implemented earlier and more thoroughly so people can insert and share their favorite brand of furry by themselves and leave the dev to do actual meaningful development? if the game was more modular people could even create their NPCs and side missions and whatnot and submit it to the dev for review
having tons of children while fun and fetish fulfilling for some doesnt amount to anything other than crash or slow the game down to a crawl. NPCs dont differ at all and are very very limited in their interactions you would think they would interact differently towards you if you are anything other than human for example



you cant be serious. its just bad storytelling having a single magic concept/device explain every single thing that doesnt comform to real life standards and hand wave it as "its magic bro" thats some harry potter level shit. i think what SordidDreams was refering to was that its preferable for the issue of the size clothes not be adressed and having it as an acceptable break from reality for gameplay purposes and not have the player think about it rather than having a bad attempt at an in universe explanation and having the player rolling their eyes and going "yeah right"

Indeed, focus is the primary issue for all of development in terms of the progress being made or lack thereof.

 

[anon707]

Guess what, nobody likes tedious travel. That's why every single open-world game includes a fast travel mechanic, to allow you to skip it. Which rather defeats the point of having that vast world in the first place, wouldn't you say?

Your personal preference is not universal fact. Plenty of people love getting lost in a world. Your example is a AAA specifically designed to appeal to lowest common denominator (hence the game being the most streamlined and dumbed down out of all of the elder scrolls game). It is not a game you want to use as a perfect example that should be followed.

A lot of what you're worried about in LT can be solved with procedural generation.

 

[PussyPassAnon]

View attachment 1050978
(Aight, last time that i rant about the discord.)
This right there, is a major problem. You can technically criticize the game, but you gotta accept that you're gonna get ganked by multiple people. It's a really, dare i say, toxic environment and either silences anyone that has problems with the game or drives them away.

The kicker is that the "enforcement" is biased against you, so it's not a fair "treat others the way you'd want to be treated" game. Which means that if you snap back at them with the same rudeness, you're the only one getting clapped. "It's only okay when we do it" is how it goes over there and I can visibly see how stressful it's making you, seeing the double standard. I'd stay away, just for your own sake.

 

[anon707]

you cant be serious. its just bad storytelling having a single magic concept/device explain every single thing that doesnt comform to real life standards and hand wave it as "its magic bro" thats some harry potter level shit. i think what SordidDreams was refering to was that its preferable for the issue of the size clothes not be adressed and having it as an acceptable break from reality for gameplay purposes and not have the player think about it rather than having a bad attempt at an in universe explanation and having the player rolling their eyes and going "yeah right"

by that logic, why attempt to explain anything or have any kind of world building whatsoever? if anyone ask anything about the world and its logic, just tell them "shut the FUCK up its a video game bro LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"