Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.9.9] [Innoxia]

[vogelad94]

While it would be possible to quickly add a vague, throwaway "nice new form" line (that can be ambiguously used for whatever change you've undergone) for certain NPCs that gets triggered to appear whenever the MC drastically changes parts of, or all of their body, and then have them go back to normal NPC behavior...

… Anything more detailed than that would just exponentially increase the amount of work done for each NPC and each transformation variable, since you'd have to program and write new lines for every single dang transformation type, for every current and future NPC, and that could multiply the workload by a lot (and potentially discourage the addition of future transformations and NPCs ), so unless you wrote a script to change the line on the fly (which would probably add a ton of new bugs and problems), I'd say the first option here is more viable.

I think it's important to think about why transformation mechanics were added in the first place, and why people are interested in using them. I kind of see it mainly fulfilling a few purposes:

First, people can be interested in the transformation system just for player customization, changing their appearance for their own personal aesthetic tastes. That sort of thing can be really really popular with furries and the like, who like to roleplay as their fursonas, or for people who want to recreate their OCs or whatever.

Meanwhile, the customizable transformation potions, the detailed transformation descriptions and the forced transformation content can also let the transformation system cater to people who have transformation kinks, and like to imagine themselves or others being transformed.
I don't share this kink, so I can't say what is people like about it, but the fact that there's text actively describing detailed transformations probably helps those folks get their jollies, giving the transformation system another hook to interest some people.

Also, some of the transformations, like the taur stuff, can maybe let people build their perfect partner for whatever they want to do with them, or to fulfill whatever kink or fetish they want to indulge in. I mean, there's also a whole buncha different clothing items, which pretty much are almost all purely cosmetic in difference. If someone wants to fuck their ideal dragon-leopard-taur waifu with 3 pairs of huge tits, 2 cocks, 5 vaginas, and dressed in a half schoolgirl outfit, half latex BDSM outfit, then they'll probably look to the transformation system to change one of their ally NPCs into that, since the game is unlikely to spawn anything like that randomly.

Finally, certain transformations do confer actual gameplay-related bonuses or changes, like wings or tails or taur legs letting you do different things in combat and changing up what equipment you use and whatnot. That lets the transformation system give players the opportunity to change their character build to suit their gameplay style and gives them interesting options in that regard, if that's what they're interested in.

If you look at it this way, then the fact that some of the game's NPCs don't react to your transformations isn't all that important, since that's not what the transformation system is really included in the game for, and that's not really what most people who are interested in the transformation system in the first place would consider important. Would you spend time and resources on something with a fairly low priority that most people don't care about, just for a one-off line that gives a minor feeling of immersion that many people won't even notice?

Though I can certainly agree with you that some important story choices, like being changed into a demon, would be improved a fair bit by giving certain NPCs a quick line of dialog... even without it, it doesn't matter too much, especially since a lot of them are just like, store vendors and the like.
I believe Lilaya and maybe some other NPCs already react if you get changed into a demon? I mean, it wouldn't take too long if simple events were added to some other important NPCs, but as I said earlier, it's probably not a very high priority at the moment.

Anyways, thank you for listening to my ted talk about story immersion and transformation fetishes in a porn game about horny magic demons.

 

[Dr.Feelgood]

Is there a way to make girl willingly become my slave? Without forcing collar upon her.

It feels like the bondage fetish 'perks' were meant to do this but, like most nice things in Lilith's Throne, were never implemented this way and abandoned for something completely different.

 

[mrttao]

While it would be possible to quickly add a vague, throwaway "nice new form" line (that can be ambiguously used for whatever change you've undergone) for certain NPCs that gets triggered to appear whenever the MC drastically changes parts of, or all of their body, and then have them go back to normal NPC behavior...

… Anything more detailed than that would just exponentially increase the amount of work done for each NPC and each transformation variable, since you'd have to program and write new lines for every single dang transformation type, for every current and future NPC, and that could multiply the workload by a lot (and potentially discourage the addition of future transformations and NPCs ), so unless you wrote a script to change the line on the fly (which would probably add a ton of new bugs and problems), I'd say the first option here is more viable.

Huh. I did not even consider a generic "nice new form", that one could work.
I figured any response has to be of the 2nd method where each specific change has specific dialog. Which as you mentioned would require exponential amount of dialog

 

[Reguna]

Is there a list of NPCs that can be enslaved?
I have Bree/Brax only

 

[Reguna]

Dark Siren's Scythe seems very strong. Is it the best weapon in this game version?

 

[CaptainBipto]

Is there a list of NPCs that can be enslaved?
I have Bree/Brax only

You can have Scarlet as a slave.
She is the Harpy you talk to, in Slavers Alley, after your encounter with Brax. You pay 10,000 flames to Helena, to talk to her and you have an option to keep her or release her.
Just a note, if you romance Helena and kept Scarlet, you will have to give Scarlet back, so it is a choice of keeping Scarlet or romancing Helena.

Other than Scarlet and Brax, I don't think there are any other NPCs you can enslave, other than the generic alley attackers and the ones you can buy in Slavers Alley.

 

[Where banana?]

just as an idea in case the dev is reading this. whenever you get around to finishing up combat and combat stats, I feel like given the situation (stuck in a demonified future) there should be monsters... regular Killable monsters aside from just the usual fuckable npc. I like fucking and getting fucked by my defeated opponents but sometimes i just wanna end some sorry monster (or asshole) that crosses me. just a thought

 

[IvoryOwl]

just as an idea in case the dev is reading this. whenever you get around to finishing up combat and combat stats, I feel like given the situation (stuck in a demonified future) there should be monsters... regular Killable monsters aside from just the usual fuckable npc. I like fucking and getting fucked by my defeated opponents but sometimes i just wanna end some sorry monster (or asshole) that crosses me. just a thought

Innoxia is vehemently against adding death to the game. The only way it will ever happen is if someone mods it themselves.

 

[PussyPassAnon]

I mean, if the first time you met me I was a human male, the next time you met me I was a Wolfgirl, then a Harpy, then a Foxgirl, then finally a fucking Succubus ... you'd probably mention it.

I agree with the general sentiment in this thread about "player agency."

But, to be fair to the game concept itself: In a world where anyone can become anything at any time for any reason at any level of extremity, is there any defining, unchangeable factor -- aside from aura/arcane -- that would justify an NPC knowing who you or anyone else would be?

Do you remember the argument I made a long time ago about how basically every character in the game may as well just be a formless amoeba?

So, here's a baseline question: Can you explain why it would make sense for any non-arcane NPC you romance one particular day to somehow be able to recognize you the next day and maintain the cordiality after you've morphed from [Race A with Breast size A, Name A, Skin tone A, Hair length A, Height A, and Cock Size A] to [Race B with Cock Size C, Skin tone D, Name F, Pronoun Z, Body Size R, and no breasts]?

(I say non-arcane, because arcane/aura can be used as an explanation as to why people can identify you and it is mostly used or known by demons and mystical creatures)

Now, that would be an extreme case, for sure, since all aspects have been changed. Minor changes like adding breasts or removing penis probably could be recognized and even pointed out by an NPC you recently met -- assuming their personality even cares. So, then the next question is: How do you establish what changes are worth a reaction?

 

[Dr.Feelgood]

So, then the next question is: How do you establish what changes are worth a reaction?

By presumably using the same metrics used to determine the PC's race. Considering that there is already a means of detecting what type of morph a character is at any moment, if that were to change I would imagine retooling a throwaway line of dialogue for roommates would be possible. Then again, this is Lilith's Throne we're talking about. Probably near impossible to code given the way race detection and NPCs are currently implemented.

 

[noname009]

Is there a list of NPCs that can be enslaved?
I have Bree/Brax only

You can enslave all NPCs by using mods.
It might have glitches. There is no special dialog with unique NPCs using the mod.
Well, There's not much special dialogs in the original game to begin with.

 

[tehlemon]

But, to be fair to the game concept itself: In a world where anyone can become anything at any time for any reason at any level of extremity, is there any defining, unchangeable factor -- aside from aura/arcane -- that would justify an NPC knowing who you or anyone else would be?

Do you remember the argument I made a long time ago about how basically every character in the game may as well just be a formless amoeba?

What a weird question lol

Yes. There's a very simple and very obvious reason that would justify an NPC knowing who you are or what you would be.

NPCs should know if they've met you (and they technically already do)

Like, it's really that simple. If an NPC knows you, and you were a human, then they know that you're a human. If you show up and you're no longer a human, its natural that they'd comment on it. Even in your whole "the PC is a formless amoeba" example, that doesn't mean that people won't comment on you changing. Because they knew you were one thing, and now you're another thing. People in real life comment on superficial stuff like appearance all the time.

Both things can be true at the same time.

So, here's a baseline question: Can you explain why it would make sense for any non-arcane NPC you romance one particular day to somehow be able to recognize you the next day and maintain the cordiality after you've morphed from [Race A with Breast size A, Name A, Skin tone A, Hair length A, Height A, and Cock Size A] to [Race B with Cock Size C, Skin tone D, Name F, Pronoun Z, Body Size R, and no breasts]?

(I say non-arcane, because arcane/aura can be used as an explanation as to why people can identify you and it is mostly used or known by demons and mystical creatures)

I mean, yes? I can explain it in two very specific questions...

1) Are you completely incapable of recognizing someone you've only met a couple of times in real life? Like, enough to remember that you've seen them before?

2) If you meet someone who you should know, but don't recognize, do they not introduce themselves? And if they look wildly different, say, if they lost a lot of weight, would you not comment on it?

Again, unless you change your appearance and don't make your identity known, people will be able to remember who you are. But I do agree, if you wildly change your appearance, randos on the street shouldn't remember who you are. That'd be a good bit of immersion, wouldn't it? Like, it'd be pretty dope if you could trick people in that way. I'm totally not writing this down for later while working on my own project, because that could make for an awesome quest idea lol

But again, both of these things can be true. You can change your appearance and still have people know who you are. Or maybe they won't. It's really up to the player. And to make that immersive, the options and reactions you provide to the player matter. More options and more reactions is better for immersion.

Now, that would be an extreme case, for sure, since all aspects have been changed. Minor changes like adding breasts or removing penis probably could be recognized and even pointed out by an NPC you recently met -- assuming their personality even cares. So, then the next question is: How do you establish what changes are worth a reaction?

To start with, you work from the most meaningful reaction first and then go backwards as time permits. Assuming you have a content framework that isn't shit, which is obviously a problem for LT, you should be able to add this stuff in a modular way. So start with species changes. Then look at named NPCs who'd have an obvious preference, Scarlett is someone who has a thing for harpies so if the player turns into a harpy (or away form a harpy) let her comment on it. A really good one would be an NPC commenting if they thought you were female, and now you're male. Because that has obvious times when it comes up and is easy to add in. They already comment on your appearance as soon as they can see you.

Then, personally, I'd play of the existing NPC preferences. NPC's already have preferences, that's why they're consistent when transforming the player. I'd look at those NPCs and give them dialog if you transform away from whatever they transformed you to. Or dialog if you transform into what they prefer. This could just be a passing line about how much they love how you look in the greeting dialog/event or at the start of a sex encounter.

But it's mostly down to time VS impact.

And you can really take it as far as you want. If my coworker showed up at work tomorrow missing a finger, people would comment.

I showed up after getting a haircut, and people commented.

People comment on this shit all the time in real life, it doesn't make any sense why the NPCs ignore it.

 

[anubis1970]

My two cents; I'd much rather see Inno focus on completing the main story than get bogged down with minor QoL improvements like this.

 

[PussyPassAnon]

I showed up after getting a haircut, and people commented.

1) Depends on the amount of passed time and if they stuck out to me in any significant way.

2) They'd have to prove they're the person I should remember. Documentation, history, and specific information -- ID cards, for example. Like, celebrities are constantly meeting people who claim to be people they should know. "Hi, I'm your cousin from [x] family. You don't remember me? Well, let me show you things about me that only you could know, that differentiate me from other people who also claim to be your cousin from [x] family!"

-------------------------------------

So, when you got your haircut, did you also change your name, your skin tone, your (presumed) masculinity, and your height?

When you establish a relationship with someone, you notice and register unique and unchangeable things about them, correct? These are things that differentiate them from other people, so that minor things like a haircut don't completely alienate them from your mental registry of who they are, right?

-Sandy, the Asian female coworker with blonde hair and likes to drink milkshakes.
-Nathan, the homeless Indian guy with the club foot that wanders into the coffee shop from time to time, talking nonsense about aliens.

If Sandy showed up one day as a Caucasian male named "Tyler" with brown hair, different eye color, half-harpy limbs and a height similar to a dwarf's, would you even know that was Sandy until she told you she used to be Sandy? Even if she told you she were Sandy, how could you verify on the spot? Anyone else at any time can also rename themselves as "Sandy" to maliciously impersonate your coworker, right?

What if Sandy and Nathan swapped identities for the giggles of it and transformed into each other (there's even a mod designed specifically for this), adopting name, appearance, and even personality ticks? If everything can become anything at any time, what defines a character or person from everything else that can become the exact same thing at any point in time on a whim?

(This concept is actually consistently used in entertainment series/films, like in Squid Games where a detective adopted the suit of one of the Staff members to help him infiltrate the organization. Nobody knew he wasn't the impersonated Staff member, until some definable characteristics began to reveal themselves and only then did people get suspicious.)

Where I'm going with this is that the game does wrestle with some obviously illogical concepts, but if we're going to go with recognition of changes to characters, we need to first set a ground rule as to how people even recognize each other in the first place in a world where nothing is immutable. The levels of changes scale from minor to drastic and there needs to be a system that measures the change and concludes whether or not an NPC can still recognize a character. The game lore itself even utilizes aura/arcane to help you recognize your own children, otherwise how the heck else would you even know it's your child when anything else can look exactly like them -- or you -- at any time?

I'd suggest implementing something like an aura scanner, that would work like our real life ID system, because we apparently can't change the inherent characteristics of aura. That'd be a good place to start with this whole idea.

 

[tehlemon]

1) Depends on the amount of passed time and if they stuck out to me in any significant way.

2) They'd have to prove they're the person I should remember. Documentation, history, and specific information -- ID cards, for example. Like, celebrities are constantly meeting people who claim to be people they should know. "Hi, I'm your cousin from [x] family. You don't remember me? Well, let me show you things about me that only you could know, that differentiate me from other people who also claim to be your cousin from [x] family!"

-------------------------------------

So, when you got your haircut, did you also change your name, your skin tone, your (presumed) masculinity, and your height?

When you establish a relationship with someone, you notice and register unique and unchangeable things about them, correct? These are things that differentiate them from other people, so that minor things like a haircut don't completely alienate them from your mental registry of who they are, right?

-Sandy, the Asian female coworker with blonde hair and likes to drink milkshakes.
-Nathan, the homeless Indian guy with the club foot that wanders into the coffee shop from time to time, talking nonsense about aliens.

If Sandy showed up one day as a Caucasian male named "Tyler" with brown hair, different eye color, half-harpy limbs and a height similar to a dwarf's, would you even know that was Sandy until she told you she used to be Sandy? Even if she told you she were Sandy, how could you verify on the spot? Anyone else at any time can also rename themselves as "Sandy" to maliciously impersonate your coworker, right?

What if Sandy and Nathan swapped identities for the giggles of it and transformed into each other (there's even a mod designed specifically for this), adopting name, appearance, and even personality ticks? If everything can become anything at any time, what defines a character or person from everything else that can become the exact same thing at any point in time on a whim?

(This concept is actually consistently used in entertainment series/films, like in Squid Games where a detective adopted the suit of one of the Staff members to help him infiltrate the organization. Nobody knew he wasn't the impersonated Staff member, until some definable characteristics began to reveal themselves and only then did people get suspicious.)

Where I'm going with this is that the game does wrestle with some obviously illogical concepts, but if we're going to go with recognition of changes to characters, we need to first set a ground rule as to how people even recognize each other in the first place in a world where nothing is immutable. The levels of changes scale from minor to drastic and there needs to be a system that measures the change and concludes whether or not an NPC can still recognize a character. The game lore itself even utilizes aura/arcane to help you recognize your own children, otherwise how the heck else would you even know it's your child when anything else can look exactly like them -- or you -- at any time?

I'd suggest implementing something like an aura scanner, that would work like our real life ID system, because we apparently can't change the inherent characteristics of aura. That'd be a good place to start with this whole idea.

I do agree that it would take work to make sense. Unless you're explicitly planning on playing into this as a plot point, you'd need a way for people to trust/recognize each other. But honestly, everything in LT is so contrived anyways that we could just make some shit up. We have magic maps that somehow are able to track our children for us, fuck it, magical IDs.

But yeah, like the other's have said, it's not worth the dev time. Inno is so god damn slow when it comes to writing that this would take a few years to get even the basics working.

 

[Tattletale21]

My two cents; I'd much rather see Inno focus on completing the main story than get bogged down with minor QoL improvements like this.

yeah i gotta agree with you here. even though this game is definitely lacking in the quality of anything department, it could be something equal to - or even greater than - CoC someday...all Inno needs to do is focus on the main storyline and stop giving us fucking sex positions.

 

[BlidBear]

I honestly think it would be an amazing engine for making games if it was optimized. It's sad to see that much messy code and the lack of development through the last 3 years. Someone should make a similar and better engine, make a game with it and ask for support - Like Innoxia but actually working and knowing what they are doing.

 

[playerme]

When trying to play the game in Linux under Wine, I get the following: -- See Screen Shot --

When I try to run the Jar file, I get the following:
Error: Could not find or load main class com.lilithsthrone.main.Main
Anyone have any ideas?

 

[Tungarth]

Gotta agree with you guys there.

While I really do like stuff like skyrim npcs commenting on your skills, adding reactions to LT really won't work out well.
I'm pretty sure that with all the body parts and sizes and variations, there's a lot that can go wrong.
And I can already see the players complain that their modded up Lynx-Dragon-Klingon-Pokemon was wrongly adressed.

So lots of work for a chance to make the players invested in the topic more unhappy.

On a side note, the #mods channel got a lot cleaner as soon as I blocked all the posts that added tons of species and/or weapons.

 

[kallabunga]

My next post will likely be the release (or delay...) post of v0.4.2.5, so I'll see you again then.

Inno isn't even pretending to care about meeting deadlines anymore.