Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.9.9] [Innoxia]

[Tattletale21]

So, the servitute enchantment prevents the person from breaking the seal of sealed equipment (which most characters do not even have the ability to do) and also from self transforming.
Do slaves actually remove their own slave collar and escape if you fail to include that enchantment?

i think it was something Inno was going to add but, much like the rest of this game's interesting features, it got ignored for more sex positions.

story of this game's life, tbh.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

The Servitute enchantment prevents the person from breaking the seal of sealed equipment (which most characters do not even have the ability to do) and also from self transforming. It is implied it should be paired up with enslaving and sealing enchantment.

But do slaves with a sealing enslaving collar actually remove their own slave collar and escape if you fail to include servitude enchantment?

'Servitude' mostly exists so Amber's and Natalya's collars aren't completely trivial to break if you engage with that content. Slaves can technically be completely naked with no risk of escape.

 

[mrttao]

'Servitude' mostly exists so Amber's and Natalya's collars aren't completely trivial to break if you engage with that content. Slaves can technically be completely naked with no risk of escape.

thank you. this certainly simplifies the process of me making custom slave collars

 

[randomname2243]

so i just scrolled through every single 'patch update' Inno's released since the game started being developed, tallied it up with the current state of the game and...wow. just wow. like holy fucking shit wow. i genuinely can't tell if she's shit at time management and is trying to do too many things at once, or just doesn't care and throws shit at the wall hoping it sticks. in four years this game has gone from 'wow this looks neat' to 'wow this looks neat with an extra hour of content'.

i doubt this will get read but here we go; Inno: either focus exclusively on story to push the game forward, or focus exclusively on the world itself with new content. even before i moved into the - very small - questline for Elis i realised Dominion and Submission were oddly empty after about two hours banging out quest after quest. there's very little to do in the starting city that also becomes the centerpoint for the entirety of this 'world' you've built, and people we talk to and establish basic rapports with are shunted to the side almost immediately after their quests are done. there's no reason for me to give a fuck for these people. slow the heck down and focus on one thing and one thing only, and in my opinion that one thing should be one of these two options:
- flesh out Dominion and Submission more. add more characters and quests, more items that can only be found in either D or S, maybe make characters we thought we were done with return with more quests or in a more permanent capacity. make whatever race the character decides to shift into actually matter with new dialogue choices or reactions form characters. maybe go back to the very beginning with character creation and make those silly little personality choices actually mean something. you picked a cynical character? make that character look at everything with an apathetic light. you picked a kind character? make that character have lines that reflect that. right now these 'personalities' don't mean anything beyond unique characters that are practically defined by them. for the main character to have a personality trait of one of these is completely inconsequential.
- flesh out the world itself. make access to the other cities out there possible and the ability to turn into the races we currently cannot viable. once this is done you could stabilise the game before continuing, the few cities' worth of content would be enough to keep people content with the current game while you hammer out the finer points at a pace you feel is necessary. once the world has been fleshed out more you can hammer out finer story details, more main and side quests to keep people amused while you plough through the story. give people a reason to explore Elis beyond it being a place to have high-level random encounters and an 'A to B' to the cities. make people want to roam around, discover things on their own. maybe focus exclusively on the Youko content, adding them in and the ability to transform into one.

literally just pick one thing and see it through, instead of adding this strange mish-mash of things and spreading yourself thin. work on one thing that finished conclusively, then allow that thing to take you to the next thing, and so on and so forth.

but then again this has been happening for four years, so doubt anything's going to change if this is ever actually read.

In other words; what this game lacks is player agency and an alive(or real)world that recognizes, comments and interacts with the player depending on their choices and appearance. Without player agency, you're just an individual, the hero to save the world, the hero without personality, without faults or real character development. Like the whole world is centred around the protagonist and not the protagonist being inside a (believable) world.
Just an observation; most games here lack player agency or it is me? Maybe l set the bar too high but l feel that player agency in games where you (allowed to)make choices should be always present and not surface-level.
And that's only the story department, the gameplay 'player agency' department is a different topic but closely related.

 

[tehlemon]

In other words; what this game lacks is player agency and an alive(or real)world that recognizes, comments and interacts with the player depending on their choices and appearance. Without player agency, you're just an individual, the hero to save the world, the hero without personality, without faults or real character development. Like the whole world is centred around the protagonist and not the protagonist being inside a (believable) world.
Just an observation; most games here lack player agency or it is me? Maybe l set the bar too high but l feel that player agency in games where you (allowed to)make choices should be always present and not surface-level.
And that's only the story department, the gameplay 'player agency' department is a different topic but closely related.

I definitely agree with you. Meaningful player agency has been a huge problem with this game forever. But everything else has also been a huge problem, so I doubt it'll change anytime soon.

 

[Tattletale21]

I definitely agree with you. Meaningful player agency has been a huge problem with this game forever. But everything else has also been a huge problem, so I doubt it'll change anytime soon.

yeah, that's just an unfortunate truth at this point. player agency was a thing i expected to eventually have in this game, but all i got was the emotional equivalent of Mass Effect 3's 'pick your favourite colour' ending.

 

[Carl0sDanger]

A couple things that I think would vastly improve the feeling of player agency would be NPCs recognising changes the MC has gone through and options to meaningfully shape the story going forward.

Currently, most NPCs don't react at all to even very radical changes in the MC's appearance, which undercuts the impact of a primary game mechanic. I mean, if the first time you met me I was a human male, the next time you met me I was a Wolfgirl, then a Harpy, then a Foxgirl, then finally a fucking Succubus ... you'd probably mention it.

And as (if) the story progresses, there needs to be opportunities for the MC to choose the "conquer" or "liberate" paths set up when the MC meets Lyssieth. There can't just be one way to approach confronting Lilith's daughters. This is actually supposed to be the main course of the game. Something that's frequently obscured by Inno's fascination with - to stretch a metaphor - fiddling with the place settings.

Of course those things are dependent upon Inno still wanting to make the game she claims to want to make and the ability of the engine to support continued progress. Neither of which are givens.

 

[kenny]

Currently, most NPCs don't react at all to even very radical changes in the MC's appearance, which undercuts the impact of a primary game mechanic. I mean, if the first time you met me I was a human male, the next time you met me I was a Wolfgirl, then a Harpy, then a Foxgirl, then finally a fucking Succubus ... you'd probably mention it.

You can literally buy transformation potions in a shop and the world is populated by amalgamation monstrosities of various animal parts, that's the least logical thing to mention.

 

[noname009]

I'd like to know where mods are published.
Mainly on the discord and several in this forum?

 

[IvoryOwl]

You can literally buy transformation potions in a shop and the world is populated by amalgamation monstrosities of various animal parts, that's the least logical thing to mention.

That's not the point he was trying to make. Yes, there are furries and mixed breeds in the game, but unless your character has morphing abilities (like demons and slimes to a degree) constantly changing your appearance IS an oddity in of itself and it's a complete buzzkill that no NPCs mentions or even acts surprised by it.

Lore-wise, transformation potions are supposed to be somewhat rare and expensive because they require essences to make and the only ones capable of accumulating, extracting and using essences are demons and witches, both of which are rare in this world. Also, the economy in LT is in complete shambles meaning most people aren't exactly swimming in money to be able to afford TFs left and right. Then there are the implications of it; if someone is constantly changing their appearance they are either 1) rich or 2) demons in disguise. Demons are considered the ruling elite in this world, even law enforcers bend themselves backwards to get in their good graces.

Aside from minute, isolated cases, most NPCs don't give a damn when you reveal yourself to be a demon... This means TFs are mostly just flavor for the player and little else. Another prime of example of a feature added to the game with no depth to it.

 

[mrttao]

In other words; what this game lacks is player agency and an alive(or real)world that recognizes, comments and interacts with the player depending on their choices and appearance. Without player agency, you're just an individual, the hero to save the world, the hero without personality, without faults or real character development. Like the whole world is centred around the protagonist and not the protagonist being inside a (believable) world.
Just an observation; most games here lack player agency or it is me? Maybe l set the bar too high but l feel that player agency in games where you (allowed to)make choices should be always present and not surface-level.
And that's only the story department, the gameplay 'player agency' department is a different topic but closely related.

I think you are mixing up terms. Player agency is the ability of the player to make decisions and for them to change things.

A hero without faults that saves the world is perfectly viable route to have. so long as you are allowed to choose between that route and other routes then you have agency.

Also there is only so much agency that can be coded in. As each split point in a major plot is effectively a new and different game.
It is sometimes good for player agency to be localized. For example being able to take different routes for your relationship with waifu number 7, which will have drastic effects on her personality and a few NPCs related to her plotline. But will not have any effect on the major overarching plot.

Actually this game seems to suffer from giving the player too much agency. So much so that the author can not get any appreciable progress as she is too busy adding more and more customization options.

That's not the point he was trying to make. Yes, there are furries and mixed breeds in the game, but unless your character has morphing abilities (like demons and slimes to a degree) constantly changing your appearance IS an oddity in of itself and it's a complete buzzkill that no NPCs mentions or even acts surprised by it.

You ignored the part where stores sell transformation potions.
You can just walk into the mall and it is full of transformation potions.
The local guard captain bought a custom transformation potion that turns the drinker into a wolf bitch. (changing gender and apparent race).
The local tattoo parlor can give you or your slaves magical tattoos that cause transformations
Multiple shop sell clothes enchanted to transform the wearer...

It might be killing your buzz, but your demands are not reasonable. You want NPCs to be surprised and shocked at your transformation but this is totally unrealistic for a world where transformation are so utterly casual and trivial.
It is easier to transform yourself in the world of this game than it is to get a hair dye in the real world.

When was the last time everyone acted shocked at you for dying your hair a different color? Hair dyejob takes several hours to do, while a potion that turns you into a female wolf furry takes seconds to drink and can be bought in the mall

 

[SheepPun]

You ignored the part where stores sell transformation potions.

You ignored the part where the game struggles to keep its lore consistent with the gameplay provided and that, shockingly, other people have other opinions which in turn effect how they feel about things.

Whether the former is a good or bad or eh thing in the case of Lilith's Throne is up to the beholder, because like this is an issue that shows up in other games for varying reasons.

 

[mrttao]

You ignored the part where the game struggles to keep its lore consistent with the gameplay provided and that, shockingly, other people have other opinions which in turn effect how they feel about things.

1. Where in the lore does it say that stores do not sell transformative items casually to anyone with money? All I have seen is that most people are unable to directly harvest essence and instead must buy it in bottles. Which you yourself can fill up and sell for some pitifully small amount of cash (30 flames per bottle)

2. I am not ignoring their different opinion, I am explicitly addressing their different opinion. Specifically by proving it to be an objectively wrong opinion.

Whether that's a good or bad or eh thing in the case of Lilith's Throne is up to the beholder, because like this is an issue that shows up in other games for varying reasons.

Whether it is good or bad is irrelevant to the argument. The argument being on whether NPCs should make a big deal out of you walking to any of a half dozen different stores in town and buying a transformative. Whether it is a transformation cake at the cafe, or a transformation potion at the shop, or a transformation tattoo from the tattoo parlor, or a transformation piercing from the sex shop, or a transformation bondage from the slavers

 

[tehlemon]

A couple things that I think would vastly improve the feeling of player agency would be NPCs recognising changes the MC has gone through and options to meaningfully shape the story going forward.

Currently, most NPCs don't react at all to even very radical changes in the MC's appearance, which undercuts the impact of a primary game mechanic. I mean, if the first time you met me I was a human male, the next time you met me I was a Wolfgirl, then a Harpy, then a Foxgirl, then finally a fucking Succubus ... you'd probably mention it.

And as (if) the story progresses, there needs to be opportunities for the MC to choose the "conquer" or "liberate" paths set up when the MC meets Lyssieth. There can't just be one way to approach confronting Lilith's daughters. This is actually supposed to be the main course of the game. Something that's frequently obscured by Inno's fascination with - to stretch a metaphor - fiddling with the place settings.

Of course those things are dependent upon Inno still wanting to make the game she claims to want to make and the ability of the engine to support continued progress. Neither of which are givens.

If only there were moments in the game that would be absolutely, completely perfect for giving the illusion of player agency by addressing the players accomplishments in the game through NPCs who should already know the player's accomplishments and literally have a scene where you're trying to impressive them with those accomplishments even though they should already know them...

Wait... I think I wrote like a five page wall of text back in... holy fuck Nyan's quest was a year ago? How the fuck was that a year ago? Good god nothing has gotten done in a year. Again.

...uh...

BACK TO THE JOKE!

If only there were really simple ways to make the NPC's react to changes in player appearance. If only the game kept track of basic information like whether the player's sex were known to the NPC which could be reset the moment the player changes their sex so that the NPC would react to changes. It'd be crazy if the game kept track of information like that and could react accordingly. Just absolutely crazy...

Honestly, this is why I decided to start working on my own game instead of trying to mod/fix this one (or, you know, continue contributing to other games). There's so much potential to play with the sim side of LT. You could easily give NPCs preferences about what species they like, and have them react if the player changes into or out of that species (totally didn't just make a note about that right now). Like, easily a third of the character variables are completely stupid and could be dropped completely to make room for more interesting stuff. LT is a good example of how little writing a lot of this takes, you can easily reuse content if you just had a handful of variations on the same thing.

But of course, there's no reason to work on the sim side of the game while the game's performance is still absolute dog shit.

And it's still absolute dog shit. Despite a couple people imagining that there were major changes in the performance that were left of the that patch notes, for some god damn reason, the game still lags like a motherfucker with as little as 15 slaves if they're assigned the wrong jobs or in the wrong locations.

And well, it's been a year since Nyan's rework released. And this is where we are. So none of this will ever happen.

 

[mrttao]

If only there were moments in the game that would be absolutely, completely perfect for giving the illusion of player agency by addressing the players accomplishments in the game through NPCs who should already know the player's accomplishments and literally have a scene where you're trying to impressive them with those accomplishments even though they should already know them...

Wait... I think I wrote like a five page wall of text back in... holy fuck Nyan's quest was a year ago? How the fuck was that a year ago? Good god nothing has gotten done in a year. Again.

...uh...

BACK TO THE JOKE!

If only there were really simple ways to make the NPC's react to changes in player appearance. If only the game kept track of basic information like whether the player's sex were known to the NPC which could be reset the moment the player changes their sex so that the NPC would react to changes. It'd be crazy if the game kept track of information like that and could react accordingly. Just absolutely crazy...

Honestly, this is why I decided to start working on my own game instead of trying to mod/fix this one (or, you know, continue contributing to other games). There's so much potential to play with the sim side of LT. You could easily give NPCs preferences about what species they like, and have them react if the player changes into or out of that species (totally didn't just make a note about that right now). Like, easily a third of the character variables are completely stupid and could be dropped completely to make room for more interesting stuff. LT is a good example of how little writing a lot of this takes, you can easily reuse content if you just had a handful of variations on the same thing.

But of course, there's no reason to work on the sim side of the game while the game's performance is still absolute dog shit.

And it's still absolute dog shit. Despite a couple people imagining that there were major changes in the performance that were left of the that patch notes, for some god damn reason, the game still lags like a motherfucker with as little as 15 slaves if they're assigned the wrong jobs or in the wrong locations.

And well, it's been a year since Nyan's rework released. And this is where we are. So none of this will ever happen.

1. randos overreacting to you changing your haircut (or other equally trivial alterations) is not what player agency means.

2. the fact that the coding infrastructure exists to facilitate this highly specific feature request of yours does not mean it is an effortless change to make. Nor the fact that this change the fact that is a highly specific request for new features. You are falsely making it out to be a failing of the game, that the game is wrong in not catering to this extreme niche fetish of yours. That this is not just your fetish addition request but a very serious defect in the game.

This is not a game defect, this is not a lack of agency. This is you having a very specific niche fetish and pretending that the game has no player agency because this very specific fetish is not catered to.

And before you say "but some of those changes are pretty extreme! far more so than change of haircut". It takes way more effort to change your haircut IRL (like, an hour!) than it does to become a winged furry futa with 3 foot long penis and 2 foot long tongue (~5 minutes. most of which is walking to the store).

3. The game is literally open source

You must be registered to see the links

go download the source code. write up some NPC reactions. and submit a PR / release it as a mod. Show us how it is done. after all you keep on going on about how trivially easy it would be to code this feature request of yours. I want to see how many lines of code it takes you to do it.

 

[tehlemon]

1. randos overreacting to you changing your haircut (or other equally trivial alterations) is not what player agency means.

I'm sorry, did you even read my post? Like, you must have skipped half of it if that's all the take away you got from this.

2. the fact that the coding infrastructure exists to facilitate this highly specific feature request of yours does not mean it is an effortless change to make. Nor the fact that this change the fact that is a highly specific request for new features. You are falsely making it out to be a failing of the game, that the game is wrong in not catering to this extreme niche fetish of yours. That this is not just your fetish addition request but a very serious defect in the game.

Seriously, did you even read my post?

The "programming is actually hard!11" argument always seems to come from people who don't understand what they're talking about. And you apparently missed me saying I'm literally making my own game right now. *Obviously* it's not an effortless change. No where did I say it would be. In fact, I literally said its not worth the time investment in the last section of my post.

Seriously, did you even read my post?

This is not a game defect, this is not a lack of agency. This is you having a very specific niche fetish and pretending that the game has no player agency because this very specific fetish is not catered to.

Hey look, it's that falacy where you assume because one thing isn't true, another thing must also not be true.

But seriously, did you read my post? Because you're really cherry picking your arguments here.

And what fetishes are you even talking about? I literally didn't mention a single fetish. Like, not one. WTF are you even on about?

And before you say "but some of those changes are pretty extreme! far more so than change of haircut". It takes way more effort to change your haircut IRL (like, an hour!) than it does to become a winged furry futa with 3 foot long penis and 2 foot long tongue (~5 minutes. most of which is walking to the store).

So? What's your point?

3. The game is literally open source

You must be registered to see the links

go download the source code. write up some NPC reactions. and submit a PR / release it as a mod. Show us how it is done. after all you keep on going on about how trivially easy it would be to code this feature request of yours. I want to see how many lines of code it takes you to do it.

No it's not. And I can also link to github.

You must be registered to see the links

Although this Project is publicly available, it is not open source software. All Content is under sole ownership and Copyright 2016 Innoxia (innoxia7@gmail.com) all rights reserved.

And again, did you even read my post? Like, seriously, how shit is your reading comprehension where this is what you came away with. I literally addressed this exact demand of yours in the post you're replying to. You just ignore it.

Also...

I want to see how many lines of code it takes you to do it.

Only a really terrible programmer judges difficulty by number of lines. Or someone who doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about.

Oh wait...

 

[Tattletale21]

I'm sorry, did you even read my post? Like, you must have skipped half of it if that's all the take away you got from this.



Seriously, did you even read my post?

The "programming is actually hard!11" argument always seems to come from people who don't understand what they're talking about. And you apparently missed me saying I'm literally making my own game right now. *Obviously* it's not an effortless change. No where did I say it would be. In fact, I literally said its not worth the time investment in the last section of my post.

Seriously, did you even read my post?



Hey look, it's that falacy where you assume because one thing isn't true, another thing must also not be true.

But seriously, did you read my post? Because you're really cherry picking your arguments here.

And what fetishes are you even talking about? I literally didn't mention a single fetish. Like, not one. WTF are you even on about?



So? What's your point?



No it's not. And I can also link to github.

You must be registered to see the links

And again, did you even read my post? Like, seriously, how shit is your reading comprehension where this is what you came away with. I literally addressed this exact demand of yours in the post you're replying to. You just ignore it.

Also...



Only a really terrible programmer judges difficulty by number of lines. Or someone who doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about.

Oh wait...

holy shit dude you didn't need to fucking murder him.

no

wait

you did.

 

[Tairnel]

He asked for it LOL

 

[Carl0sDanger]

It was a mercy killing.

 

[mrttao]

I'm sorry, did you even read my post? Like, you must have skipped half of it if that's all the take away you got from this.

Seriously, did you even read my post?

Did you read your own post? you are repeatedly going on about this

If only there were really simple ways to make the NPC's react to changes in player appearance. If only the game kept track of basic information like whether the player's sex were known to the NPC which could be reset the moment the player changes their sex so that the NPC would react to changes. It'd be crazy if the game kept track of information like that and could react accordingly. Just absolutely crazy...

Oh look. a thing you definitely NEVER SAID. nope, never said that.

The "programming is actually hard!11" argument always seems to come from people who don't understand what they're talking about. And you apparently missed me saying I'm literally making my own game right now. *Obviously* it's not an effortless change. No where did I say it would be. In fact, I literally said its not worth the time investment in the last section of my post.

You are not the only programmer in the world you. I know exactly what I am talking about.
I also did not say programming is hard, I said it would take a fuckton of lines to add what you requested. Not because it is hard, but because it is TEDIOUS. vast majority of the lines are not gonna even be programming infrastructure and instead be lines of dialog to output for the player to read so they can react to every possible permutation.

I will grant you that you suggested author drop a third of the variables. And I agree with you there. Most of them are both useless, overly specific, and not actually used anywhere

No it's not. And I can also link to github.

You must be registered to see the links

Did you not read the License? it explicitly allows you to submit code and also to release your own fork so long as you adhere to certain reasonable requests.

And again, did you even read my post? Like, seriously, how shit is your reading comprehension where this is what you came away with. I literally addressed this exact demand of yours in the post you're replying to. You just ignore it.

This is innoxia being wholly ignorant of what the term open source means. She seems to think open source means public domain. It does not.

open source = any program whose source is publicly available for viewing. Even if it is not a free software and you are not allowed to reproduce the source code nor use it without purchasing a license.
FOSS = free and open source software = software whose source is open to the public and also the software is free. People often use FOSS as a synonym for open source but they are not.
public domain = anyone can take the program, fork it into a closed source project, and sell it for money

Innexia is saying "this is not open source software" due to her ignorance. Her source is being given so this is open source. And it is in fact FOSS because her license explicitly states:

Redistribution, use, and modification of the Project and its Content, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:

1. The Project must retain the above copyright notice and this license as is.
2. The Binaries must reproduce the above copyright notice (i.e. leave Innoxia's name in the credits page).
3. The Project, its Content, and Binaries:
   3a. must carry prominent notices stating it is modified, and not endorsed by Innoxia, if applicable.
   3b. must be available free of charge, if distributed.
   3c. may not be used for commercial purposes.

Points 3b and 3c are to protect the player base from having to pay for modded copies of the game. I don't want modders to try and take advantage of players (by adding a paywall to their mods).

You are explicitly allowed to publish mods for this game so long as you adhere to those simple requirements.
In fact this is a near classic BY-NC-SA FOSS license.

You must be registered to see the links

• You must be registered to see the links
  : This license allows reusers to distribute, remix, adapt, and build upon the material in any medium or format for noncommercial purposes only, and only so long as attribution is given to the creator. If you remix, adapt, or build upon the material, you must license the modified material under identical terms.

CC BY-NC-SA includes the following elements:
BY

– Credit must be given to the creator
NC

– Only noncommercial uses of the work are permitted
SA

– Adaptations must be shared under the same terms

The author is simply ignorant and thinks open source == public domain
She wrote up a custom BY-NC-SA for herself instead of using the creative commons one. But the essence of it is practically the same.