Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.9.9] [Innoxia]

[Tattletale21]

1. randos overreacting to you changing your haircut (or other equally trivial alterations) is not what player agency means.

2. the fact that the coding infrastructure exists to facilitate this highly specific feature request of yours does not mean it is an effortless change to make. Nor the fact that this change the fact that is a highly specific request for new features. You are falsely making it out to be a failing of the game, that the game is wrong in not catering to this extreme niche fetish of yours. That this is not just your fetish addition request but a very serious defect in the game.

This is not a game defect, this is not a lack of agency. This is you having a very specific niche fetish and pretending that the game has no player agency because this very specific fetish is not catered to.

And before you say "but some of those changes are pretty extreme! far more so than change of haircut". It takes way more effort to change your haircut IRL (like, an hour!) than it does to become a winged furry futa with 3 foot long penis and 2 foot long tongue (~5 minutes. most of which is walking to the store).

3. The game is literally open source

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go download the source code. write up some NPC reactions. and submit a PR / release it as a mod. Show us how it is done. after all you keep on going on about how trivially easy it would be to code this feature request of yours. I want to see how many lines of code it takes you to do it.

just to twist the dagger a bit, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what agency actually means, and what kind of agency we're after in this game - a game of which already has one type of agency, and we're asking for it to evolve into another.

"Agency is the degree to which a player is able to cause significant change in a game world. Low agency games involve either no interactivity, nudging or busywork. High agency games allow the player to significantly change the world or the state of objects within the world with every action."

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hot damn would you look at that! it's almost like i did the smart thing and used the internet to back up an argument! bro, that's insane!

just because i can, let's refute your other points of 'contention' while you simp for Inno's lack of progress in a game that, from the start, all-but promised high agency for the players. let's do that!

Point Uno:

1. Where in the lore does it say that stores do not sell transformative items casually to anyone with money? All I have seen is that most people are unable to directly harvest essence and instead must buy it in bottles. Which you yourself can fill up and sell for some pitifully small amount of cash (30 flames per bottle)

in the beginning, actually. if you paid a damn iota of attention to literally anything Lilaya says about extracting essences and transforming yourself you would know that essences themselves are pretty useless to the wider population because so few can actually use them. so even if they're rare, they're useless, get it? transformative items, the things like cakes and drinks and such, are a - here comes the big shocker - gameplay decision by the creator! gosh, it's almost as if the game does not specifically need to adhere to the lore verbatim! wow!

uh, also? the foods themselves don't transform you. you need to enchant them first and them drink the potion variant you create - you know, enchanting? that thing only witches and demons can do? that thing? the thing Lilaya mentions to us? yeah, that thing. and if you paid any attention to the prologue of the game, you'd find out that - as the big, scawy pwotagonist - you're special! you can extract essences from other people and use them for - you guessed it - enchanting! sure, some foods can transform you, but they're quite expensive and can only be bought at either a specific shop, or found in a highly specif area with a highly specific enemy to beat before getting the chance to get it. get it?

the shops might be able to sell those things, true, but did you ignore the - very good, actually - argument about how fucked this game's economy lore-wise is? here you are, quoting lore, and ignoring that specific part of it to fuel your baseless argument! you silly goose, you! the reason shops sell transformative potions is never actually explained, sure, but it is well explained that flames roughly equate to the british pound sterling - considering this game is, or was, based in the british isles that makes sense, no? - and that most transformative potions are...you guessed it...expensive! also, in case you missed that little dig at your investigative skills, allow me to point it out for you - flames are a rough equivalent of the pound sterling, and i dunno about you, but 375 flames for a t-shirt? highway robbery...or a sign of a collapsed economy! wow! look at all the brian cells i had to expend figuring that out!

Point Two:

Whether it is good or bad is irrelevant to the argument. The argument being on whether NPCs should make a big deal out of you walking to any of a half dozen different stores in town and buying a transformative. Whether it is a transformation cake at the cafe, or a transformation potion at the shop, or a transformation tattoo from the tattoo parlor, or a transformation piercing from the sex shop, or a transformation bondage from the slavers

lessee here...i've pretty much addressed all of this except for...wait! here it is! some more stupidity!

"...or a transformation tattoo from the tattoo parlor, or a transformation piercing from the sex shop, or a transformation bondage from the slavers."

there are transformative tattoos in this game? transformative piercings that the player doesn't make themselves? fucking where! boy, how can i have played this game for a solid three years and never noticed this? sweet golly jesus i must be blind!

...or to have actually played the game.

because you clearly haven't. you've probably gotten past the tutorial, glanced over some of the available locations and items on offer, and then suddenly think you understand everything this game has to offer.

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wow! it's almost like i destroyed your petty argument with some well thought-out reasoning! gee golly, it's almost like i have actually played the game! it's almost like i know what i'm talking about! wowee!

pick your fights my dude, because i can guarantee you acting all high and mighty pretending to know what you're on about is winning you no favours. quit while you're ahead.

EDIT: I take back my argument that tattoos can't be transformative, because they can...but they're far more expensive than a regular transformative potion ever could be. 1000 flames minimum just to get the damn thing in the first place, and depending on the transformation that you want that price could climb past 5000 flames. so, while i take back my argument on the tattoos, you're still silly for thinking that such a thing could ever be used in this argument of yours in the first place, considering that the price itself is even more indicative of a fucked economy and, therefore, invalidating your argument.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

it is well explained that flames roughly equate to the british pound sterling - considering this game is, or was, based in the british isles that makes sense, no? - and that most transformative potions are...you guessed it...expensive! also, in case you missed that little dig at your investigative skills, allow me to point it out for you - flames are a rough equivalent of the pound sterling, and i dunno about you, but 375 flames for a t-shirt? highway robbery...or a sign of a collapsed economy! wow! look at all the brian cells i had to expend figuring that out!

A minor point of order, the Flame is said to be about 10 pence mostly for the sake of pricing real world inspired items. The numbers are big because it kind of behaves like the Yen in its lack of an actively used further subdivision.
So that shirt would cost about 37.5 GBP - probably some kind of brand but not outrageous in itself.

 

[mrttao]

lessee here...i've pretty much addressed all of this except for...wait! here it is! some more stupidity!

"...or a transformation tattoo from the tattoo parlor, or a transformation piercing from the sex shop, or a transformation bondage from the slavers."

there are transformative tattoos in this game? transformative piercings that the player doesn't make themselves? fucking where! boy, how can i have played this game for a solid three years and never noticed this? sweet golly jesus i must be blind!

...or to have actually played the game.

because you clearly haven't. you've probably gotten past the tutorial, glanced over some of the available locations and items on offer, and then suddenly think you understand everything this game has to offer.

You don't
wow! it's almost like i destroyed your petty argument with some well thought-out reasoning! gee golly, it's almost like i have actually played the game! it's almost like i know what i'm talking about! wowee!

pick your fights my dude, because i can guarantee you acting all high and mighty pretending to know what you're on about is winning you no favours. quit while you're ahead.

This honestly made me laugh at how over the top you go with how you are "destroying" me. How I didn't play the game. How my arguments are petty. How I should pick my fights. etc... you are going quite in depth to disparage me personally about my sheer and utterly gall to speak before a mighty expert such as yourself with my utter ignorance of how the game works... How I am utterly wrong about transformation tattoos you can buy at the store being a thing that exists...

Here is how you hire someone to tattoo your slave with a transformation tattoo at no essence cost to yourself:
Step 1: get a slave
Step 2: walk to the slave's bedroom and click on them.
step 3: click on manage
step 4: click send to kate
step 5: click on tattoos
step 6: add a tattoo. pay money for it.
step 7: click enchant. kate will enchant the tattoo for you with anything you want, including transformations. The cost of the enchantment will be paid in flames and requires no essence

Here is how to get it for yourself:
step 1: walk to mall
step 2: walk to succubi's secrets
step 3: get a tattoo. pay money for it.
step 4: click enchant on the tattoo. kate will enchant the tattoo for you with transformations of your choice. it requires 0 essence from you and is all done by kate using her bottled essence. She charges you money for the service.

edit: I forgot about the piercings. same store with the tats also sells a "caution when wet" piercing that transforms vagina and anus wetness level to max.

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[Tattletale21]

Wow, I am so utterly destroyed. Clearly I am an idiot who never played the game and you are a grand expert with 3 years experience and thus I am completely wrong about transformation tattoos being a thing that exists...

Here is how you hire someone to tattoo your slave with a transformation tattoo at no essence cost to yourself:
Step 1: get a slave
Step 2: walk to the slave's bedroom and click on them.
step 3: click on manage
step 4: click send to kate
step 5: click on tattoos
step 6: add a tattoo. pay money for it.
step 7: click enchant. kate will enchant the tattoo for you with anything you want, including transformations. The cost of the enchantment will be paid in flames and requires no essence

Here is how to get it for yourself:
step 1: walk to mall
step 2: walk to succubi's secrets
step 3: get a tattoo. pay money for it.
step 4: click enchant on the tattoo. kate will enchant the tattoo for you with transformations of your choice. it requires 0 essence from you and is all done by kate using her bottled essence. She charges you money for the service.

You literally proved yourself wrong! Your citations literally exactly agree with me on what agency means
Changing your avatar's appearance is not "cause significant change in the game world". Getting randos to comment about your looks is not agency.

You are making a lot of assumptions there. Nowhere have I simped for inno's lack of progress. Please provide a citation where I do.
I disagreed with claims about how you must have NPCs comment on your looks for the game to have agency. Getting NPCs to comment on your avatar's looks is not agency, it is just narcissism.

This is so wrong on so many levels:
1. People can use a product they do not know how to make. Do you know how to make hair dye at home? can you buy hair dye at the store and use it? Do you know how to make an aspirin at home? can you buy one at the store and use it?
Essence is not used for transformation, it is used for CRAFTING transformatives. You do not need to know how to craft something in order to buy it in a store and use it.
Brax explicitly hired a guy to craft a custom transformation potion for him because he does not have the ability to craft his own potions. Because Brax can not use essence... but using essence is not needed to DRINK a potion or wear a piece of magical equipment.

2. Liliya actually says that most people are unable to collect essence. That she and most common demons have to buy it in a bottle instead of getting it through sex the way the MC can. She does not say that nobody can use essence. In fact literally every enchanter uses essence... from bottles.

true, true, but counterpoint!

only witches and demons can enchant in the first place, or those of demonic origin considering the arcane is needed to even enchant anything in the first place. of which so few in this world can actually use. so there.

also can i just point out how funny it is that you're constantly using the hair dye metaphor for something like changing your very body through a potion? you seem to take things quite literal as well, when in fact we're talking about a game! it's almost as if the game is fictitious from the start!

and yes, you're simping. you dont need to say you're a simp to be a simp, you simp. because, truthfully? only a simp - or a fourteen year old child that's just gotten a hold of the internet and thinks it's the key to immortality or some nonsense - would start an argument about a sex game to prove a point - when said game is four years behind on its own development and stretched thin lore-wise anyway, so using lore to back arguments up when lore could change any second now is...well, pointless, i guess. the height of folly, one could say.

so, pretentious simp man, you can stop and save yourself an internet battle that would have the mods descend to drag us all to blocked valhalla, or you could just...give up? this argument means nothing to anyone - anyone with half a brain can see that people are just humouring you - so uh...stop? now?

damn i'm good at arguing with people. i should be a politician or something.

 

[Tattletale21]

A minor point of order, the Flame is said to be about 10 pence mostly for the sake of pricing real world inspired items. The numbers are big because it kind of behaves like the Yen in its lack of an actively used further subdivision.
So that shirt would cost about 37.5 GBP - probably some kind of brand but not outrageous in itself.

yeah that's a good point. but i think if the GBP is being treated like the yen the economy's pretty fucked either way. that was the main point of my argument, but thanks for pointing that out to me!

...i'm being wholly truthful, no sarcasm at all. thanks for pointing it out to me. give me more ammo in the future i guess? somehow? who knows?

 

[mrttao]

and yes, you're simping. you dont need to say you're a simp to be a simp, you simp. because, truthfully? only a simp - or a fourteen year old child that's just gotten a hold of the internet and thinks it's the key to immortality or some nonsense - would start an argument about a sex game to prove a point - when said game is four years behind on its own development and stretched thin lore-wise anyway, so using lore to back arguments up when lore could change any second now is...well, pointless, i guess. the height of folly, one could say.

1. you do realize you are arguing on the internet right now

2. you are making assumptions on my goals here.

3. seriously. saying I simp for the author is ridiculous... its like... imagine this:
doug: The nazies used time machines to kill people
jack: The nazies did not have time machines
doug: Did you just defend nazies? This makes you a nazi! everyone jack is a nazi!

I said a person is wrong on a specific thing. This does not mean I disagree with him on everything ever and are a member of the" opposition party". It just means I disagree with him on that thing. nothing more, nothing less.

I actually agree with him on other things. For example, I agree with him that inno needs to cut out a bunch of useless variables, that her code is a disaster, and that she barely made any substantive progress in years because she is spreading herself too thing.

 

[Tattletale21]

1. you do realize you are arguing on the internet right now

2. you are making assumptions on my goals here.

3. seriously. saying I simp for the author is ridiculous... its like... imagine this:
doug: The nazies used time machines to kill people
jack: The nazies did not have time machines
doug: Did you just defend nazies? This makes you a nazi! everyone jack is a nazi!

I said a person is wrong on a specific thing. This does not mean I disagree with him on everything ever and are a member of the" opposition party". It just means I disagree with him on that thing. nothing more, nothing less.

I actually agree with him on other things. For example, I agree with him that inno needs to cut out a bunch of useless variables, that her code is a disaster, and that she barely made any substantive progress in years because she is spreading herself too thing.

perhaps you should have started with 'i agree with you on x, y, and z, but...' because that would have made you seem less of a pretentious not-simp. and, uh, this entire thing would have not happened were that the case? yaknow, just thinking ahead.

i'd also like to say i just hopped into this argument for the lol factor, so...take form that what you will.

 

[SheepPun]

ah well, the thread has gotten like this again

 

[Tattletale21]

View attachment 1509720
ah well, the thread has gotten like this again

the only way to go from here is up, friend

 

[aspar4gus]

ah well, the thread has gotten like this again

Well.. Imagine an ideal update where there's adequate stuffs being added to an update and everyone become too busy playing that they have no time to argue with strangers on the internet

Now imagine the exact opposite of that, everyone here is having pre-nut clarity

 

[Enfrize]

Is there a way to make girl willingly become my slave? Without forcing collar upon her.

 

[randomname2243]

Τhing is, regardless of your choice, when it comes to customization of your own character, nothing really changes. Actually, most things you choose doesn't affect anything, they are just there for flavour, inconsequential flavour.
They maybe are some really specific checks based on your gender rating but overall, the game lacks that immersion and player agency factor.
That is just my opinion on it. l have fond memories of Vampire the masquerade bloodlines,Alpha Protocol for player agency and immersion. Even Artificial Academy 2 hits me with that immersion a bit(even though l know it has its flaws) and l adore that game.

Though, even if it is my opinion on all of this, l set the bar too high so l should silence my mouth, hands and mind about this subject and be done with it. Actually, l will do just that.

Peace be with you all.

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[aspar4gus]

Is there a way to make girl willingly become my slave? Without forcing collar upon her.

Willingly no.

But if you're against collars in general, the enslavement is actually a type of enchantment, so u can just enchant a golden ring with enslavement seal and.. uhh... propose someone to be ur slave

 

[IvoryOwl]

You ignored the part where stores sell transformation potions.
You can just walk into the mall and it is full of transformation potions.
The local guard captain bought a custom transformation potion that turns the drinker into a wolf bitch. (changing gender and apparent race).
The local tattoo parlor can give you or your slaves magical tattoos that cause transformations
Multiple shop sell clothes enchanted to transform the wearer...

1) There's only one store in the mall sells actual TF potions and it's called Arcane Secrets, owned by Vicky. Said potions are weak, limited in scope and the results are too random to be worth the price. They are somewhat expensive too, especially for a new player.

2) No, the mall is not "full of transformation potions". Just because an item provides a (temporary) buff doesn't mean it's enchanted. Ralph (general store) sells racial food that when enchanted becomes transformative but are otherwise completely ordinary food-snacks that only give you temporary bonuses.

3) Brax is a corrupt high-ranking officer so chances are he has the money to splurge on TF potions. Random NPCs carry TF potions because otherwise it would invalidate the fetish that revolves around forced transformations. The lore was made slightly inconsistence here to facilitate things for the player who wants said content.

4) The beauty/tattoo salon in the mall is owned and operated by a demon. Demons have the power to enchant items and use magic to do stuff.

5) Nyan only sells enchanted clothes after doing her quest, where it explains why she could not sell them before (her suppliers were driven out by force and the remaining two weren't sharing their goods...)

It looks to me you do not understand the difference between a common item from an enchanted one, least of all how they are made. Enchanted items and potions are somewhat rare and expensive because the only ones capable of making them (demons and witches) are rare in this world (even though it doesn't feel like it given how often demons spawn in darker alley, which is another slight inconsistence...). The limited supply pushes the price up and because of the economical crisis going on, not every Jane and Joe can afford them. I never said those items were "impossible" to find. Demons and witches sell them because it's a good source of money for them, hence why you can find them in certain shops.

Also, don't you find it strange that Arcane Secrets (shop that sells books, scrolls, weapons and potions) happens to be the most expensive one in the entire mall? Most weapons are enchanted, book and scrolls are about magic (rare ability) and essences are used for magical stuff. You can enchant items and make custom TF potions yourself ("Yer a wizard Harry!") but in order to do so you need essences, which are gathered from sex (more specifically, orgasms). The more complex the potion the more essences it requires. Unless you're willing to grind up those numbers, chances are you're going to buy those in bottles instead. Per bottle, they are not that expensive, but a single TF potion can easily require 50-80 essences if you're going for a more complex look. You buy bottled essences by the dozens and suddendly it becomes an expensive endeavor. (Which, admittedly, can be mitigated by cheesing or abusing the game's broken economy due to lack of balance patches... but that's a topic for another time.)

It might be killing your buzz, but your demands are not reasonable. You want NPCs to be surprised and shocked at your transformation but this is totally unrealistic for a world where transformation are so utterly casual and trivial.
It is easier to transform yourself in the world of this game than it is to get a hair dye in the real world.

When was the last time everyone acted shocked at you for dying your hair a different color? Hair dyejob takes several hours to do, while a potion that turns you into a female wolf furry takes seconds to drink and can be bought in the mall

(Actually, people can indeed be surprised by it if it's uncharacteristic for you. Yes, dying your hair in real time takes a while. Meanwhile, in this game, you can shoot fireballs from your hands, unicorns are a thing and time halts unless the main character moves or does something. Tell me, was that comparison really wise? Typically, games don't use real-time progression anyway... everything is sped up for the purpose of engaging gameplay. Tell me, would you play a game where your character is made inert for the duration of their transformation, all while they are in excruciating pain as bones pop out of their sockets and re-shape themselves, teeth fall and regrow, sharper and deadlier than before, and new hair sprouts all over their bodies, and they scream bloody murder for 3 real days until the transformation is done? /rhetorical)

Transformations are far from casual and trivial in this world. First off, you're looking at this from the perspective of a character who has the (rare) ability to create enchanted items/potions almost from the get go, which trivializes them a bit for -us- but not for most citizens in this world. Just because a shop sells a magical potion or piece of enchanted clothing doesn't mean it's super common or even affordable for most people. Also, I'm not talking about trivial things like changing your hair or dying it a different color, I'm talking about altering your body and race often enough for it to be noted. THAT is not ordinary, unless you're a race with morphing abilities (which there are only two at the moment; demons and slimes) or rich enough to afford a lot of potions.

At the very least, the game should recognize when you become a demon because they are considered a powerful elite in this world and not everyone can become one, least of all over night. This is neither niche nor a fetish, it's common sense and matches the lore of the world for what they are supposed to be. It's also called adding depth to one of the primary mechanics of this game, which LT is in dire need of. Besides, I don't think Innoxia cares about how "niche" something is given she just added arm-pit sex a few updates back... so you're going to need a better argument than "it's too niche to do".

To further give you a little context but without going too deep into spoiler territory - LT is situated in London (modern times) and it is somewhat based in our real world. Something happened that made all these furries and mythological creatures spring into existence (they weren't there before so it's not a natural occurrence, except for demons). The rest of the world has no idea what is happening because the forces that be are trying to hide and contain it. Everywhere else, demons, magic and furries are just fantasy and myths. So just because something appears ordinary and trivial, doesn't mean it is...

My point is, we know what we're talking about and backed it up with lore reasons. You'd know these things too, had you paid attention to the game's story. Instead, you come in here and instantly start dismissing everything we say with "AcTuAllY, ME knOw BEtteR, MY opInIon MorE ImPORtant", which is just absolutely stupid and doesn't contribute to any healthy discussion whatsoever. More over, you're glazing over or outright ignoring what we're trying to tell you, twisting our words, reading things out of context or just plain out cherry-picking at our arguments.

Please, just stop. Play the game and pay attention or at least make an effort to actually read what we're trying to say... otherwise this is just a waste of everyone's time. Yours included.

 

[tehlemon]

holy shit dude you didn't need to fucking murder him.

no

wait

you did.

I really dislike aggressive stupidity, specially when it's entirely based on cherry picking what I wrote. I'm more than happy to take the same tone other people want to use.

And that user is the prime example of aggressive stupidity. 99% of what they've written over the last few days has been wrong, or just misunderstanding basic concepts like "player agency" or "open source". Likely because they're not looking at these things from a programming or game development standpoint and what that actually means.

Even since my post, most of what they're writing is just aggressively wrong.

Is there a way to make girl willingly become my slave? Without forcing collar upon her.

Nope.

That would be nice, wouldn't it. You have homeless people who are in love with you and think you love them, and you can't even offer that as a way out. It's such an easy option to add, both programmatically and story-wise that it's surprising that it hasn't already.

But then you'd lead into all sorts of other fun stuff. What if you could employee people? Or a dozen other options.

 

[randomname2243]

I really dislike aggressive stupidity, specially when it's entirely based on cherry picking what I wrote. I'm more than happy to take the same tone other people want to use.

And that user is the prime example of aggressive stupidity. 99% of what they've written over the last few days has been wrong, or just misunderstanding basic concepts like "player agency" or "open source". Likely because they're not looking at these things from a programming or game development standpoint and what that actually means.

Even since my post, most of what they're writing is just aggressively wrong.



Nope.

That would be nice, wouldn't it. You have homeless people who are in love with you and think you love them, and you can't even offer that as a way out. It's such an easy option to add, both programmatically and story-wise that it's surprising that it hasn't already.

But then you'd lead into all sorts of other fun stuff. What if you could employee people? Or a dozen other options.

Please explain to me what player agency means. It is not to prove you're wrong. l agree with your statements. Just being curious and wanting to learn more about game development, l see that you have experience.

 

[Bocoboco]

I vaguely remember Inno promising to make willing slaves a thing. I don't remember if that was supposed to be a part of the eventual apology slave expansion for dropping companion support, or if it was from something before, though.

 

[EmDotRand]

View attachment 1509720
ah well, the thread has gotten like this again

These shits shows are part of the reason I stick around.

 

[tehlemon]

Please explain to me what player agency means. It is not to prove you're wrong. l agree with your statements. Just being curious and wanting to learn more about game development, l see that you have experience.

From the designer prospective, or the player perspective? Because they're very different.

Player agency is all about making the player FEEL like they have control over their own characters actions and choices, while also making them FEEL like those actions and choices matter within the world.

From the design perspective, this mostly involves cleverly lying to players lol

Player agency is NOT simply having options for the player to choose between. Just look at the terrible Mass Effect ending for a good example. To really sell player agency, you need to overtly react to the player's choices or actions in a noticable, but not obviously railroaded way.



Once again, I'll point back to Nyan's quest, specifically the early interactions with her mom. Because it really was the best example of player agency done *all wrong*. It was the perfect opportunity for the game to acknowledge your actions and achievements while having literally no consequences within the actual story/writing. And it's also the perfect example of why giving a player a choice doesn't actually increase player agency.

When you meet her, instead of having her demand that you tell her why you're worthy to date her daughter by allowing you to pick from a series of choices that are only unlocked by doing specific things, skip the fucking choice and have her mom react to what you've already achieved. She's a major business player in the city. She should at least already know about the NPC if they managed to make 100m+ dollars in a week. It would be so incredibly easy to simply have her be like "I've heard of you. You're that nobody who showed up out of no where and is living with Lilaya now, aren't you? You've been making some real waves recently. Is it true you've kept 20 slaves in that manor? That's impressive, but I'm still not convinced that you're good enough for my daughter..." or "I've heard you're well connect; that you've even done some favors for Lyssieth. Well I'm not impressed yet."

There. You've kept her as a condescending asshole who looks down on you while also having your actions, which in-universe are supposed to be impressive, matter. And with the business related options, it doesn't make her character look like a fucking moron. And hell, if you've not accomplished anything, maybe she can just straight up reject you and not allow you to continue until you've gotten further in the story.

"But then you've taken away the players ability to make choices!" I hear that one aggressively dumb person shouting at me...

Nope. That's where the quiz comes in.

First, don't railroad the player into going through all of the quiz answers with Nyan before you're even allowed to reach this point. Because that's not agency. Make it so the player has to choose to learn those things.

Second, allow the player to fail. Don't force them to succeed in the exact way you want them to. Because that's also not player agency. That entire sequence reads like a D&D DM who's pissy that the party isn't following their script correctly.

Instead of forcing the player to succeed on the second try, it would have been so much more satisfying if she booted you out saying you'd never date her daughter. Take away the opportunity, at least immediately, to date both of them. Maybe disable the date option for a little while forcing you to maintain your relationship in secret. All it would take is a couple extra lines added to the walk event to really sell it. Maybe have Nyan be worried about going for walks with you because her mom might catch you. And then have her catch you. Add a scene where her mom accepts that she can't stop you and then have her fuck off. Then move to the part of the dating sequence where she's gone and you're dating only Nyan. This would be a good option if you haven't achieved anything that would impress her mom as well.

Would it take more work to do that? Yes. Yes it would.

But not by much. I've already written more words in this post than you'd need to sell those additions. So a competent writer could pull it off reasonably easily.

These shits shows are part of the reason I stick around.

Yup, me too. Like, there's only been two meaningful content additions in a year. If it wasn't for this thread being entertaining this game wouldn't provide any entertainment lol

 

[Carl0sDanger]

I think you are mixing up terms. Player agency is the ability of the player to make decisions and for them to change things.

We're on the same page here. Player makes decisions, those decisions have consequences neccesitating more decisions. A unique story emerges out of this process.

It might be killing your buzz, but your demands are not reasonable. You want NPCs to be surprised and shocked at your transformation but this is totally unrealistic for a world where transformation are so utterly casual and trivial.
It is easier to transform yourself in the world of this game than it is to get a hair dye in the real world.

When was the last time everyone acted shocked at you for dying your hair a different color? Hair dyejob takes several hours to do, while a potion that turns you into a female wolf furry takes seconds to drink and can be bought in the mall

I don't want NPCs to be "surprised and shocked", I just want them to acknowledge the decision I've made.

Despite transformation potions being a thing, people in this world seem to pick an identity and stick with it. It's not like Ralph is a Horse-boy one day and something else the next. He stays a Horse-boy.

You use the analogy of dying your hair. Only done that once in my life, but I seem to remember people noticing and commenting on the change. So ... pretty much exactly what I want. People in this world know that transformation is possible. They're not shocked by it, but it's still not something that everyone does every day.

Some of the transformations should make it unlikely for NPCs to even recognise the MC. If the first time you meet Finch you're a Human male and the next time you meet him you're a full Wolf-morph female, why would he just greet you with the same old, "If it isn't my favourite customer."? Why can't there be a moment where he doesn't recognise you, then compliments your new form?

And then when we consider the MC becoming a Demon, that's explicitly and clearly stated as being a really unusual thing to happen. The MC going from the lowest rung of the racial hierarchy to the highest in the space of a fortnight or so. This is definitely something that NPCs should notice and comment on.

The reason why this is a player agency issue is that without things like this, the player's decisions regarding transformation have no consequences apart from mechanical bonuses. As a result, the decisions don't affect the story: they aren't meaningful.