VN Ren'Py Abandoned Lord of Imagination [Ep. 4.5 NTR] [AgentGames]

[ptahn]

You see ptahn, here is where u are wrong.
First of all -no offence- but this is not a place for a general discussion regarding the profit or not of the NTR genre.
You could continue this one with Sihil in private if u like (No offence again, just your comment/reply to ShangTsung seemed very agressive).
Secondly, ShangTsung clearly stated that he's not an NTR-lover. Yet however you pile him up with the NTR-Lovers camp (who attack non NTR in this eternal conflict -in your mind-)
Last but not least, since you asked personally; if I support the game financially, I recently unsubscribed, simply because this is not the game I was paying for. Call it scene removal, or perhaps direction shift, sorry but all these changes (Carl, Sara, Father), have transformed a unique game to yet-another-one-of-those.
But then again, since when must someone pay in order to express his oppinion?

One last question since u stated you love good discussions, could you please provide a valid reason as of why NTR-haters barge into NTR games and "demand" stuff? (removals , terminations etc)
I mean, I stated it into my last post, why not let the developer do his job, the fans enjoy it, and themselves simply move on by not bothering with the specific game/genre/fetish?

Oh, I almost forgot, you humourusly said about "need of a psychiatrist" (your statement, no1 event remotely mentioned something similar); but then again, if you (generally, not you in person of course) mess around with stuff that you don't like, are not illegal, are not immoral, which you can simply ignore, and yet you are demanding actions, simply because(?); then it's not to be laughed, a psychologist could be helpful, such persons seem to have real issues to a neutral observer

Cheers!

Sorry, but I'm going to guess that English is not your first language. I'm not trying to make fun of you, it's just that I am having difficulty following some of what you are trying to say. The phrase "need for a psychiatrist" came from the post to which I was referring. I have not asked for anything in this story to be changed. Sihil said that he would have preferred to write a non-NTR story, but is stuck with the NTR content because he currently has supporters in favor of that content. I simply said that he was right because non-NTR games make more money than NTR games. So if you actually care about what the writer wants then you will join me in telling him that it is okay to lose the NTR content if that is what he wishes to do. As far as being overly aggressive with ST, in his reply to he said:

I'm sorry to say but the only shitstorm i see in this website is from ntr-haters, i'm not an ntr lover, i don't mind both, but it's a fact, the Ntr haters ARE the problem, and unfortunately a lot of websites tolerate their pathetic toxic behavior, some of them even disabled comments on ntr topics which is not a solution, only meant to destroy any game containing ntr popularity.
A lot of these people are really good for looking for a psychiatrist.

As I was the only one at the time discussing NTR and the comment was in a reply to me, how could it taken in any other way other than it was directed at me? Obviously much more aggressive than my reply to him. Yes, you are right he said that he was not an NTR lover, but in this case he was defending the pro-NTR position.

No, you do not have to be a supporter of the game to voice your opinion. The question is relevant here because the discussion was about the financial implications of an NTR game. If someone here is defending the NTR content but not willing to support the game; it bolsters my position that even though this content has supporters in the discussion forum, those supporters do not become patrons. I was a patron as well, but left for different reasons. Who knows, I may return.

Finally, I'm not sure why you think it's up to you to decide what should be discussed in this forum. I'd say it takes a certain amount of arrogance to tell the writer of the story what he should be allowed to talk about in his own story's discussion thread. Since you are all about letting people do their job, why not let the moderator decide what is appropriate?

 

[RandomGuy99]

can we stop with the NTR non NTR discussion already? Every thread is like that. Its getting annoying. Let dev do what they want.

 

[MarcelPappas]

Sorry, but I'm going to guess that English is not your first language

Sorry, but I'm going to guess that you suffer from short memory issues.
The reference about psychiatrist, was made regarding the fetisch prefference not the income, you are -once again- off topic.
Also, you continue to be aggresive and smart-ass in your posts; tip:you are climaxing the conversations.
Last but not least, even tho you made 3 posts, you havent replyed to my question yet.
Any valid reason for NTR-hate?

P.S. Indeed the comment about the psychiatrist was quoted by you, tho my reference was purely made as a closure of my post, so it's kinda irrevelant who made it, I just miss-thought it was and I highlighted the phrase.

Cheers

 

[Raxevf]

is the Diane scene the only NTR scene so far?

 

[MarcelPappas]

is the Diane scene the only NTR scene so far?

In the current version yes, if you read a couple of pages above you will find that the Dev was forced to remove the rest of them due to some.... "unrelated issues"
IIRC, there were 2 more NTR and 1 sharing scene in the previous version.

 

[ptahn]

can we stop with the NTR non NTR discussion already? Every thread is like that. Its getting annoying. Let dev do what they want.

That's part of the point, the new writer wanted to write a non-NTR story, but feels stuck with the content because some of the current patrons want it. It was put into the story by the writer that quit.

 

[ptahn]

Sorry, but I'm going to guess that you suffer from short memory issues.
The reference about psychiatrist, was made regarding the fetisch prefference not the income, you are -once again- off topic.
Also, you continue to be aggresive and smart-ass in your posts; tip:you are climaxing the conversations.
Last but not least, even tho you made 3 posts, you havent replyed to my question yet.
Any valid reason for NTR-hate?

P.S. Indeed the comment about the psychiatrist was quoted by you, tho my reference was purely made as a closure of my post, so it's kinda irrevelant who made it, I just miss-thought it was and I highlighted the phrase.

Cheers

The psychiatrist reference came from ST' s post. He said that some people who argued against NTR needed a psychiatrist. I have know idea where you got the idea that anyone said that it had anything to do with income. There is no valid reason for NTR hate. It's a personal preference. I have not argued that there is something wrong with NTR. That would be like arguing that the color blue is better than the color red. My conversation has been that if more people buy blue cars than red cars, it might make sense to sell blue cars.

 

[RandomGuy99]

That's part of the point, the new writer wanted to write a non-NTR story, but feels stuck with the content because some of the current patrons want it. It was put into the story by the writer that quit.

Stop talking on NTR vs NON NTR. everyday same shit. there are so many thing you can discuss but still going back to the same old shit topic NTR vs NON NTR. how many thread is on that, every game here have the same discussion on this. heck, we should ask moderators ban these post. lets the developer do what ever genre they want. if you like then play it else move on

 

[ptahn]

Stop talking on NTR vs NON NTR. everyday same shit. there are so many thing you can discuss but still going back to the same old shit topic NTR vs NON NTR. how many thread is on that, every game here have the same discussion on this. heck, we should ask moderators ban these post. lets the developer do what ever genre they want. if you like then play it else move on

Easy big fella..... What I am saying is that he should do what he wants. Currently he is doing what he feels what he has to do or what he should do given his current patron base. I'm saying that if he did what he wanted to do he would increase his number of patrons. This is an entirely different situation than the one you describe. In those situations, the developer is creating the content that they want. Not the case with this story.

 

[gekk0z]

This VN started well. too bad it has been derailed. I'll just say that game devs need to grow a backbone. tell your story the way you want. if a platform does not support you, change platforms. if a segment of players don't like your story, ignore them, they are not your audience.

can you imagine Shakespeare re-writing his plays everytime the unwashed masses groan that it is immoral for his characters to do this or do that?

 

[Raxevf]

For what its worth, i'd like to applaud the developers, I think they've done an awesome job. Maybe I miss the scene from the earlier version but it was a fair trade to fix carls character development. Keep doing what you guys are doing.

 

[Endless]

About to start playing this game for the 1st time. I usually always wait for update version 3-4 as most kinks from dev & team have been worked out by then.
I've been reading the past few pages & can't believe the crap the game went through because of rape or rape like scene(s).
I like most people here prefer non-NTR but i still like some NTR as well & find it refreshing if done right.

As for more hardcore stuff like rape, forced, or very hardcore scenes i understand people not liking it but its FICTION!
Don't popular shows & movies have rape & forced sex scenes by the dozens. I don't understand if movies & shows like Game of Thrones can have rape or forced sex which by the way is the most well known series out there than a simple game cannot have it. Again, my argument here is more for the dev & team to have the right to freedom of speech & such in their games.

Well, besides that can someone please add change-log in OP & does this game need a walkthrough?
Lastly, i could not tell due to the conversations of past pages so in a nutshell how is the game going to proceed:~
Will it have only non-NTR now or still continue NTR but be less hardcore?

 

[MarcelPappas]

This VN started well. too bad it has been derailed. I'll just say that game devs need to grow a backbone. tell your story the way you want. if a platform does not support you, change platforms. if a segment of players don't like your story, ignore them, they are not your audience.

can you imagine Shakespeare re-writing his plays everytime the unwashed masses groan that it is immoral for his characters to do this or do that?

This! Exactly this!
In the specific case tho the game changed Dev from AG to Sihil, and hence it's now way off where it started.
I feel your pain, in the time period of two patches, its a whole different game because of this.

You got a valid point there, but it's a bit romantic POV I guess...
Sure we all want to see the story in its original form, the way the Dev conceived it.
Yet however, no Dev does it simply because it's his passion and wants to tell his story; It may starts like this, but when money is involved, everything shifts towards the direction they point

 

[EZ8lt]

This VN started well. too bad it has been derailed. I'll just say that game devs need to grow a backbone. tell your story the way you want. if a platform does not support you, change platforms. if a segment of players don't like your story, ignore them, they are not your audience.

can you imagine Shakespeare re-writing his plays everytime the unwashed masses groan that it is immoral for his characters to do this or do that?

It haven't started well, if anything it started off really bad. The first version of the game was centered around the idea of "CUCK ME", every aspect of it were subsumed to that, even the story, and what we had was nothing but a subpar concept that tried to justify the mind control and rape scenes with magical mumbo jumbo. This type of approach is a very common mistake in the NTR genre, when that is the priority ignoring everything else, they come up with nonsense mind control and blackmail scenarios, making the story almost nonexistent, and in the end as a result we get a very generic NTR work.

After this update, and with Sihil taking over the script, the priorities have switched. Now, it is centered around a story which has a proper world built around it (that's a work in progress though), and the story and environment will justify the NTR scenes if you choose so. I was skeptical of Sihil being capable of salvaging this mess, but it seems that with a careful approach it is manageable, and in the end, the overall quality of the game will be, and it is already, much better than it was in the first two versions.

The idea of "tell the story the way you want" is very novel, but when someone doesn't really have one, or can't express it properly, that idea goes out on the window.

This! Exactly this!
In the specific case tho the game changed Dev from AG to Sihil, and hence it's now way off where it started.
I feel your pain, in the time period of two patches, its a whole different game because of this.

You got a valid point there, but it's a bit romantic POV I guess...
Sure we all want to see the story in its original form, the way the Dev conceived it.
Yet however, no Dev does it simply because it's his passion and wants to tell his story; It may starts like this, but when money is involved, everything shifts towards the direction they point

It didn't changed devs, AG is still in there as the one who came up with the game, the initial concept, and doing the renders, but Sihil joined as a writer (much needed addition), and they also contacted a coder to work with (another much needed addition).

 

[Sihil]

This time I won't obsessively go around answering every criticism of the game because, frankly, I am tired and have other shit to do (writing the script is one of them.) So yeah, I'll address the juiciest one I can find. One thing I will say is that, I don't really see the point of continuing the NTR discussion because unlike the ones we had before where both the sides ended up agreeing with at least some of the each other's points, this is turning out to be more and more aggressive with each comment and will likely be deleted by the mods soon anyway.

Hey Sihil I am a Patron now. If you want this to be a story about mind control and incest, then go for it. As long as the story and game play get cleaned up, I am with you. If you want to make the game NTR, then do it. If you don't, then don't.

Thank you for your support, both here and on Patreon.

This VN started well. too bad it has been derailed. I'll just say that game devs need to grow a backbone. tell your story the way you want. if a platform does not support you, change platforms. if a segment of players don't like your story, ignore them, they are not your audience.

can you imagine Shakespeare re-writing his plays everytime the unwashed masses groan that it is immoral for his characters to do this or do that?

I love this comment because it will help me convey a lot of information and let me wrap it all with a zinger. First of all, the VN started well because? You liked the game before and don't know and that's fine I have nothing against you (though I feel kinda heartbroken.) But what are your criticism for the game, not the developers, the game itself? Is it not catering to your fetishes as much as you'd like? That's a reasonable wish to have but that's not a criticism as much as, well, personal preference but yes, as you pointed out, it's true we can't cater to everyone's personal preferences and that goes much more so to the non-patrons.
As for growing a backbone, well, that's not how creating art (if perverted VNs qualify as art at all) in general works. As a developer, one of your primary goals is to have the game grow in terms of patronage. It's not a goal that's good in itself (although I don't think anyone here dislikes the idea of having more money) but merely because it would help us make crisper animations, faster releases, and all in all, a better game. As for changing the platforms, that would have us our already measly patronage halved and slow down the development as we won't be able to make the investments that we mean to make as planned. And if a segment of players doesn't like your story, you don't ignore them, you listen to them. Are their concerns justified? Are their criticisms well thought-out? If yes, then address them, if not then, well, yes, ignore them, make fun of their silly little brains, whatever. Blindly ignoring every criticism because you're just that awesome doesn't work, you at least gotta think about each good-faith criticism a bit to make your game better.

And your Shakespeare analogy has its problems, the biggest one is that the audience we have is smarter by roughly a standard deviation or so worth of IQ points than Shakespeare's audience (but dumber by a standard deviation or so while discussing NTR *hihi*. I am not attacking anyone personally here.) This results in some of our audience raising genuinely good points. For instance, in the last chapter, I really wanted to have two branches for Carl in the corruption, one where MC and he are allies because they have no choice and other where they generally build a rapport. Some of the guys here, rightly pointed out, how would the MC like the person who raped his mother essentially on a whim? And I ended up defending the decisions in my story that the previous writer made so I decided to redo the scene and have it further down the road in the NTR path where Carl truly detests MC for being a weakling or whatever and enjoys torturing him with such mind games. I am not denying one of the reasons we rewrote that scene was the fear of Patreon yeeting away our content but other reason, the reason that got me to have this decision was this one. Yet another reason was having such a NTR-heavy scene in a beginning implicitly made the promise in the plot that we didn't intend to keep. (If you want to know more about the topic, watch

You must be registered to see the links

by a popular fantasy writer Brandon Sanderson.) It implied that the game's mainly going to be NTR, which as I said earlier, was not true. NTR is going to be one of the three major paths in the game but it wouldn't overshadow the other paths as much as the other two paths will affect each other. So yeah I've explained that in detail in the comments quoted below. Ironically we changed the scene because it interfered with the story we wanted to tell rather than changing it interfering with the story we wanted to tell.

TL DR; What's the point of growing a backbone as a developer if you don't grow a brain to go along with it.

Spoiler: Spoiler

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[ptahn]

This time I won't obsessively go around answering every criticism of the game because, frankly, I am tired and have other shit to do (writing the script is one of them.) So yeah, I'll address the juiciest one I can find. One thing I will say is that, I don't really see the point of continuing the NTR discussion because unlike the ones we had before where both the sides ended up agreeing with at least some of the each other's points, this is turning out to be more and more aggressive with each comment and will likely be deleted by the mods soon anyway.

Thank you for your support, both here and on Patreon.

I love this comment because it will help me convey a lot of information and let me wrap it all with a zinger. First of all, the VN started well because? You liked the game before and don't know and that's fine I have nothing against you (though I feel kinda heartbroken.) But what are your criticism for the game, not the developers, the game itself? Is it not catering to your fetishes as much as you'd like? That's a reasonable wish to have but that's not a criticism as much as, well, personal preference but yes, as you pointed out, it's true we can't cater to everyone's personal preferences and that goes much more so to the non-patrons.
As for growing a backbone, well, that's not how creating art (if perverted VNs qualify as art at all) in general works. As a developer, one of your primary goals is to have the game grow in terms of patronage. It's not a goal that's good in itself (although I don't think anyone here dislikes the idea of having more money) but merely because it would help us make crisper animations, faster releases, and all in all, a better game. As for changing the platforms, that would have us our already measly patronage halved and slow down the development as we won't be able to make the investments that we mean to make as planned. And if a segment of players doesn't like your story, you don't ignore them, you listen to them. Are their concerns justified? Are their criticisms well thought-out? If yes, then address them, if not then, well, yes, ignore them, make fun of their silly little brains, whatever. Blindly ignoring every criticism because you're just that awesome doesn't work, you at least gotta think about each good-faith criticism a bit to make your game better.

And your Shakespeare analogy has its problems, the biggest one is that the audience we have is smarter by roughly a standard deviation or so worth of IQ points than Shakespeare's audience (but dumber by a standard deviation or so while discussing NTR *hihi*. I am not attacking anyone personally here.) This results in some of our audience raising genuinely good points. For instance, in the last chapter, I really wanted to have two branches for Carl in the corruption, one where MC and he are allies because they have no choice and other where they generally build a rapport. Some of the guys here, rightly pointed out, how would the MC like the person who raped his mother essentially on a whim? And I ended up defending the decisions in my story that the previous writer made so I decided to redo the scene and have it further down the road in the NTR path where Carl truly detests MC for being a weakling or whatever and enjoys torturing him with such mind games. I am not denying one of the reasons we rewrote that scene was the fear of Patreon yeeting away our content but other reason, the reason that got me to have this decision was this one. Yet another reason was having such a NTR-heavy scene in a beginning implicitly made the promise in the plot that we didn't intend to keep. (If you want to know more about the topic, watch

You must be registered to see the links

by a popular fantasy writer Brandon Sanderson.) It implied that the game's mainly going to be NTR, which as I said earlier, was not true. NTR is going to be one of the three major paths in the game but it wouldn't overshadow the other paths as much as the other two paths will affect each other. So yeah I've explained that in detail in the comments quoted below. Ironically we changed the scene because it interfered with the story we wanted to tell rather than changing it interfering with the story we wanted to tell.

TL DR; What's the point of growing a backbone as a developer if you don't grow a brain to go along with it.

I agree, I think that people read some of my posts and not all from start to finish and did not realize the progression of our conversation. I guess MP was right, you and I should have had that conversation in private. Anyway, I understand that there are a lot of things to take into consideration with this story. There's what you truly want to do, there's wanting to be loyal to current patrons, and there's wanting to be marketable to future patrons. I hope you find a path that allows you to achieve all your goals.

 

[gekk0z]

Spoiler: reply

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you have many good points.

just tell the story the way you want to, that is all I meant.

no offence meant to you Sihil. best of luck with your project, I hope it will be a success.

There are precious few games out of the hundreds here with a good story, "Lord of Imagination" is one of them. Don't do a "Disney Star Wars" on it.

 

[Sihil]

I agree, I think that people read some of my posts and not all from start to finish and did not realize the progression of our conversation. I guess MP was right, you and I should have had that conversation in private. Anyway, I understand that there are a lot of things to take into consideration with this story. There's what you truly want to do, there's wanting to be loyal to current patrons, and there's wanting to be marketable to future patrons. I hope you find a path that allows you to achieve all your goals.

Welcome back by the way.

you have many good points.

just tell the story the way you want to, that is all I meant.

no offence meant to you Sihil. best of luck with your project, I hope it will be a success.

There are precious few games out of the hundreds here with a good story, "Lord of Imagination" is one of them. Don't do a "Disney Star Wars" on it.

Thank you but god, don't remind me of the sequel or I swear to god I'll whine about them for hours

 

[ptahn]

Welcome back by the way.

I haven't been playing much recently because of CV19. I've been posting more comments when I've been working in my home office. I haven't played your last update and I don't know that I played the previous, but I did want to make at least a token pledge.

 

[ptahn]

Movies and shows get backlash over those scenes all the time too. For Game of Thrones both the incest and rape aspects stirred a lot of controversy among viewers. Porn games are in a position where those types of content are tolerable because of the fetish aspect, but the community is small enough that the complaints are going to be amplified.

While devs might have the freedom to write their stories, it tends to be limited by their need to earn money. It is a fine line they have to walk between their creativity and not pissing off their revenue stream.

I have had many conversations about this very topic. It easy for people to say that developers should put into their stories whatever they want and not worry about what players say. It's easy to say because it's not their income they are talking about. In most of our jobs, we have to listen to the comments of clients and customers. Every business nowadays solicits customer feedback and presumably makes changes to improve the perception of the goods and services being sold. If someone suggests to a pizza restaurant that they should have a taco pizza, the owner might think that's a great idea and add the item to their menu. Someone else could suggest that the pizza restaurant serve tacos which the owner might decline to do because it does not fit the theme of the restaurant. No one would bat an eye at any of that. It seems that a developer is damned if he does or damned if doesn't make any changes. Mostly I have argued the point supporting developers right to make changes to their stories to increase profitability. Many people condemn developers who make changes as a result of the comments they receive. They should remain true to their art. In the past I have commission two paintings where I chose the content. It did not make those artists any less an artist. It was disconcerting to learn what some people will do to try to force a developer to make a change. When I make a comment about the content about a story (both positive and negative), I look at it like I put it in the suggestion box. The developer is free to do with it as he/she will. The ensuing discussion with other posters notwithstanding.