VN Ren'Py Love & Jealousy [Act 3] [Professor Amethyst Games]

[Lady Lydia]

Does he seriously think readers want the MC to fuck every female character in this NV?
All this harem pornography...
And all this despite the fact that it's a fckin drama with a potentially horrific ending, despite the fact that the MC has absolutely no interest in such bullshit.
Not to mention that such relationships are extremely unrealistic.

Look its been clear since Act 1 the Dev has an optimal outcome to this game, and its the 'Big Family' aka Harem, you'll get a monogamous ending for your liking too, but if you failed to notice their are going to be 7 endings, they don't need to all been exclusive relationships between the MC & Lacey.

Next you say the MC has absolutely no interests... well two things, first, that was from the Dev of the game , so who knows the MC better than the Dev? No one. Maybe the MC has argued against it, but that is character development, he will end the game not being the same as he started it, their are 3 Acts left for the MC to change that perspective.

Finally, 'such a relationships are extremely unrealistic' well again two things, first have you played this game? Did you find anything resembling realism in this game narrative and characterization? We have been overwhelmed with a degree of drama and non-sense that couldn't exist in real life and a 'harem' is the deal breaker? Second, Mormons would like to have a word with you, same with many civilizations in history, sure the common folks might not have been able to afford an harem, but it has existed in real life for thousands of years thru various civilizations. Also in this day and age polyamory relationships are becoming more common, and polyamory can be considered in some cases to be equivalent to a modern day harem.

Anyhow the MC might be against that sort of relationship right now, but his wife want him to have such relationships, and if you paid attention the MC isn't exactly good at telling her no even when it hurt him, so when its actually beneficial? He would be far less likely to resist that which make him feel good. How him proclaiming how much he doesn't want it is really how he feel and how much is fear that it could lead him to lose Lacey? Again you assume based on your perspective, but the Dev is going to be ultimately the judge of that, and like I said its obvious the way the Dev want to see personally their narrative head toward.

 

[KseiPo]

In the last chapter MC himself started to fantasize about having a large mansion with all "his girls" living together. So I totally see harem ending as the one of the possible good endings here.

 

[SayoraSaint]

I see where the author is leading the reader, and yes, I know about Mormons, and I also know that MC isn't Mormon. It's more likely just indignation when a trending shit shoved everywhere.
Harem, NTR, incest. Etc.
And it works when the target audience is horny teenagers.
However, this only confirms my theory about the primitiveness of this VN.

 

[Lady Lydia]

I see where the author is leading the reader, and yes, I know about Mormons, and I also know that MC isn't Mormon. It's more likely just indignation when a trending shit shoved everywhere.
Harem, NTR, incest. Etc.
And it works when the target audience is horny teenagers.
However, this only confirms my theory about the primitiveness of this VN.

You do know that everyone got their kinks, I am in my 40s, not a teen, if anything teens don't know about kinks and ironically are more likely to stick to vanilla monogamy, College is the age when people start moving away from vanilla monogamy and discover their sexuality, but its typically when people hit their late 30s to early 40s that people are more likely to start actively getting into their kinks since after over 2 decades of vanilla sex they are getting bored from it and want to 'spice up' their sex life, so contrary to what you say all those kinks are a subject for people of a mature age not the young, and those that are sticking hard to vanilla monogamy in those age are those have have drunk that religious koolaid too deep and are stuck being prudes. You are going to have a rough time with 99% of the games here if you can't handle any kinks.

 

[SayoraSaint]

You do know that everyone got their kinks, I am in my 40s, not a teen, if anything teens don't know about kinks and ironically are more likely to stick to vanilla monogamy, College is the age when people start moving away from vanilla monogamy and discover their sexuality, but its typically when people hit their late 30s to early 40s that people are more likely to start actively getting into their kinks since after over 2 decades of vanilla sex they are getting bored from it and want to 'spice up' their sex life, so contrary to what you say all those kinks are a subject for people of a mature age not the young, and those that are sticking hard to vanilla monogamy in those age are those have have drunk that religious koolaid too deep and are stuck being prudes. You are going to have a rough time with 99% of the games here if you can't handle any kinks.

And surprisingly, I agree with your point of view, but with one serious caveat.
All these kinks are good, and I have absolutely nothing against them.
But only when they fit organically into the plot, and aren't added for the sake of hype. Like in L&J.

 

[funnythings3785]

And surprisingly, I agree with your point of view, but with one serious caveat.
All these kinks are good, and I have absolutely nothing against them.
But only when they fit organically into the plot, and aren't added for the sake of hype. Like in L&J.

Yep, when the entire story revolves around the negative results of such kinks and then shoe horns them in, it creates a conflict in the believability of the story "within" its own world construct. The MC has serious issues with a lot of the "kinks", Lacey is driven by them due to the stories negative perspective of those kinks (and has her own negative view of them). Many of the girls have struggled with it and have various negative views of it as well through comments here and there and yet the story pushes to the kinks as if they are viable solutions.

The danger is with the kinks driving a story, not the basic premise of the story. It is a problem I have seen in many NTR games where the MC's base character state which is adamantly opposed to something all of a sudden magically develops a fetish for the very thing they were directly opposed to. The initial character state is then merely a means to insert drama and then the later character state is used to force a resolution.

Besides, didn't the professor in the beginning clearly state there would be no "harem" in this story? I remember this being discussed early on in the forum. Maybe I am missing something.

What I think is important here is for people to try and avoid "inserting" their personal preferences and positions in place of the story dialogue. The issue is the story conflicting with itself and that is where the some of us take issue. While some may not "like" a particular focus, I don't think anyone would reasonably have objection if the story had established itself as such and/or properly developed to that.

The issue is with drastic changes and directions that conflict with the character and stories own established principals. From a readers perspective it becomes frustrating to watch such changes because it creates a dissonance within the readers ability to absorb the story.

 

[funnythings3785]

You do know that everyone got their kinks, I am in my 40s, not a teen, if anything teens don't know about kinks and ironically are more likely to stick to vanilla monogamy, College is the age when people start moving away from vanilla monogamy and discover their sexuality, but its typically when people hit their late 30s to early 40s that people are more likely to start actively getting into their kinks since after over 2 decades of vanilla sex they are getting bored from it and want to 'spice up' their sex life, so contrary to what you say all those kinks are a subject for people of a mature age not the young, and those that are sticking hard to vanilla monogamy in those age are those have have drunk that religious koolaid too deep and are stuck being prudes. You are going to have a rough time with 99% of the games here if you can't handle any kinks.

A lot of the "kinks" discussed in this story are put in a negative light, viewed by the characters negatively and continue to create strife in the story by most of the characters involved.

The MC is the easy one, he would be the "prude" in basic expectation, simple relationship dynamics contained to him and Lacey. Lacey while partaking in such in the past and continuing to hunger for such (as an element of unhealthy conflict in the relationship) does not view her past (or recent actions with the MC) with positive light and explains so many times. Sharing is not something viewed positively by the key characters (ie MC and Lacey) and the ones who benefit from it also have issues due to the problems associated with the situation.

As for the basic issue of looking at these things from a position of health in relationships (ie most of the kinks involving outside inclusions into the relationship), a great deal of them create strife and misery for the parties involved and I think this story is specifically dealing with that as its base concept, so I think it is a bit biased to proclaim such and as it concerns the story all things considered.

Now you could argue the point as you have mentioned before, that we should not take what the story says as evidence, rather we should "read between the lines", but the problem with this is that all this does is allow "individual" bias to direct the story at will and result in numerous claims as to the characters positions that do not exist anywhere in the story, but to be honest, that is rather absurd, especially with a writer who has a habit of completely changing the story and characters at what often appears a whim.

At the end of the day, a story that has no structure, no direction and simply moves from state to state without logic is random thoughts without purpose, a series of cheap thrills of emotions. It would be unfortunate for this story to end up as such, especially with the seriousness of the topics it discusses and that is why some take issue with the haphazard inserting of such things.

 

[Lady Lydia]

Yep, when the entire story revolves around the negative results of such kinks and then shoe horns them in, it creates a conflict in the believability of the story "within" its own world construct. The MC has serious issues with a lot of the "kinks", Lacey is driven by them due to the stories negative perspective of those kinks (and has her own negative view of them). Many of the girls have struggled with it and have various negative views of it as well through comments here and there and yet the story pushes to the kinks as if they are viable solutions.

The danger is with the kinks driving a story, not the basic premise of the story. It is a problem I have seen in many NTR games where the MC's base character state which is adamantly opposed to something all of a sudden magically develops a fetish for the very thing they were directly opposed to. The initial character state is then merely a means to insert drama and then the later character state is used to force a resolution.

Besides, didn't the professor in the beginning clearly state there would be no "harem" in this story? I remember this being discussed early on in the forum. Maybe I am missing something.

What I think is important here is for people to try and avoid "inserting" their personal preferences and positions in place of the story dialogue. The issue is the story conflicting with itself and that is where the some of us take issue. While some may not "like" a particular focus, I don't think anyone would reasonably have objection if the story had established itself as such and/or properly developed to that.

The issue is with drastic changes and directions that conflict with the character and stories own established principals. From a readers perspective it becomes frustrating to watch such changes because it creates a dissonance within the readers ability to absorb the story.

The whole 'Harem' thing is that the Prof might have said their wouldn't be a Harem, but just like when the Prof said they didn't like NTR, its more of a problem with a specific aspect rather than a complete conceptual absence, the difference is how the Prof see things, is their going to be a Middle Easterner Royal or Asian Imperial style Harem? No, is their going to be an ending with a 'Big Family' where you have the MC in a relationship with multiple girls that live the MC & Lacey? Yes. Its clearly one of the two good endings intended for the game by the Prof and you can see the beginning of the set up for that in Act 1.

A lot of the "kinks" discussed in this story are put in a negative light, viewed by the characters negatively and continue to create strife in the story by most of the characters involved.

The MC is the easy one, he would be the "prude" in basic expectation, simple relationship dynamics contained to him and Lacey. Lacey while partaking in such in the past and continuing to hunger for such (as an element of unhealthy conflict in the relationship) does not view her past (or recent actions with the MC) with positive light and explains so many times. Sharing is not something viewed positively by the key characters (ie MC and Lacey) and the ones who benefit from it also have issues due to the problems associated with the situation.

As for the basic issue of looking at these things from a position of health in relationships (ie most of the kinks involving outside inclusions into the relationship), a great deal of them create strife and misery for the parties involved and I think this story is specifically dealing with that as its base concept, so I think it is a bit biased to proclaim such and as it concerns the story all things considered.

Now you could argue the point as you have mentioned before, that we should not take what the story says as evidence, rather we should "read between the lines", but the problem with this is that all this does is allow "individual" bias to direct the story at will and result in numerous claims as to the characters positions that do not exist anywhere in the story, but to be honest, that is rather absurd, especially with a writer who has a habit of completely changing the story and characters at what often appears a whim.

At the end of the day, a story that has no structure, no direction and simply moves from state to state without logic is random thoughts without purpose, a series of cheap thrills of emotions. It would be unfortunate for this story to end up as such, especially with the seriousness of the topics it discusses and that is why some take issue with the haphazard inserting of such things.

I wouldn't say I was telling people between the lines, per say, but no one here is a reliable narrator, so we can't trust everything to be facts, how much did Lacey tell the MC is merely her telling him what he want to hear? Its clear she lied, to what length? Also their is the issue that people can be pulled in opposite directions, what you consider from an intellectual point of view can diverge heavily from what you consider from an emotional point of view. If the MC has a secret kink would we really know? Repression is a thing, as I said before, how many gay people pretended to be hetero? Some we can't be sure their isn't some unknown depth to the MC & Lacey that the story hasn't revealed yet.

Next their is the fact that we are 3 Acts in the story, their are 3 Acts left and its entirely possible for characters to develop in a different way they were portrayed over that course of time. People keep saying how the characters were thinking in Act 1 & 2 to justify how they see the ending, denying them any potential character development because they obviously personally favor the personality of said characters in Act 1 & 2 and refuse to see it change. We have seen the MC being forced to adapt to circumstances since Act 1, by Act 6 he'll likely have changed even more, as for as is typical the more someone change the easier it become to keep changing, so he won't be the same man at the end of Act 6 than he was at the beginning of this game, like more protagonists ever in stories. Whenever we see some shy or cowardly individual turn brave over the course of a story I don't see most of you throwing a bitch fit because he is so different at the end compared to what he was at the start.

 

[funnythings3785]

The whole 'Harem' thing is that the Prof might have said their wouldn't be a Harem, but just like when the Prof said they didn't like NTR, its more of a problem with a specific aspect rather than a complete conceptual absence, the difference is how the Prof see things, is their going to be a Middle Easterner Royal or Asian Imperial style Harem? No, is their going to be an ending with a 'Big Family' where you have the MC in a relationship with multiple girls that live the MC & Lacey? Yes. Its clearly one of the two good endings intended for the game by the Prof and you can see the beginning of the set up for that in Act 1.

You are making assumptions. The dialogue suggests this direction at times, but it does not clearly establish this as an outcome. There could be a start to this, but have serious fall out in the forming of this plan. I am not saying it isn't possible, but I think people need to go back to the discussion of Act 2... then consider where we are Act 3. There were a lot of assumptions that were completely thrown on their head. I would be careful trying to read too much into the professors intent.

Certain people may be involved to the end, but maybe not as how you think. Also consider the MC is already talking about "finding someone" for those LIs as well, so he isn't viewing this entirely in the perspective you seem to be framing it.

I wouldn't say I was telling people between the lines, per say, but no one here is a reliable narrator, so we can't trust everything to be facts, how much did Lacey tell the MC is merely her telling him what he want to hear? Its clear she lied, to what length? Also their is the issue that people can be pulled in opposite directions, what you consider from an intellectual point of view can diverge heavily from what you consider from an emotional point of view. If the MC has a secret kink would we really know? Repression is a thing, as I said before, how many gay people pretended to be hetero? Some we can't be sure their isn't some unknown depth to the MC & Lacey that the story hasn't revealed yet.

All we have is what the story tells us. You keep drumming the "unreliable narrator" aspect for the sake of inserting assumptions that have zero support. Maybe the MC is an axe murderer secretly? Maybe he is planning to kill all the girls and this is his method? Maybe he is in on it with Barty and setting up his porn empire? Neverminded the dialogue, we don't know everything, so we know nothing... it could be right?

All you are doing is taking some random facts or claims and then inserting conclusions as you see fit. I understand the concept of theorizing various possibilities, but you are ignoring story when it benefits you and then using it in disconnected pieces to form a conclusion that it does not support.

Next their is the fact that we are 3 Acts in the story, their are 3 Acts left and its entirely possible for characters to develop in a different way they were portrayed over that course of time. People keep saying how the characters were thinking in Act 1 & 2 to justify how they see the ending, denying them any potential character development because they obviously personally favor the personality of said characters in Act 1 & 2 and refuse to see it change. We have seen the MC being forced to adapt to circumstances since Act 1, by Act 6 he'll likely have changed even more, as for as is typical the more someone change the easier it become to keep changing, so he won't be the same man at the end of Act 6 than he was at the beginning of this game, like more protagonists ever in stories. Whenever we see some shy or cowardly individual turn brave over the course of a story I don't see most of you throwing a bitch fit because he is so different at the end compared to what he was at the start.

Yes... it can go in any direction "because" the professor is inconsistent in things and tends to write in the moment. That however is not a valid argument to establish the conclusions you are making. You are dismissing what is known in order to advocate for what is not and then proclaiming legitimacy solely on the fact that the professor is inconsistent. That isn't evidence to your conclusions, it simply means that what we know so far may not turn out as the story has established it.

At best you can say... the story can change, but you can't disregard the story as it is and then insert theories based on nothing more than loose unsupported facts to claim a conclusion. Spit ball all you like, but you have no real argument until the professor actually establishes support for your position in the story.

 

[AL.d]

Besides, didn't the professor in the beginning clearly state there would be no "harem" in this story? I remember this being discussed early on in the forum. Maybe I am missing something.

In the same dev notes that said there would be no forced ntr after act 1. We saw how that rule worked out didn't we?

I've said that before, you can't get the harem out of the harem dev (his first completed game was that) and it shows in this game too. It's funny how he says we shouldn't expect every female to jump on MC's cock, because so far, almost every female in the game drools at the thought of it for no discernible reason. After exchanging at most two lines of dialogue with him. That was my first and strongest clue he would be shitting on those dev notes. Because it's how women in harem games are written.

Ironically enough, the only one escaping the harem mold in this, is the MC's....wife. Making him a harem cuck. A true unicorn amongst cucks.

 

[Bruno66]

Just a friendly question: is this game also available in German?

 

[slackster]

Yes... it can go in any direction "because" the professor is inconsistent in things and tends to write in the moment.

Has the Dev given any indication he has written the framework of the story before he started developing the game- If not, this whole discussion is pointless if he is making it up as he goes.

 

[funnythings3785]

Has the Dev given any indication he has written the framework of the story before he started developing the game- If not, this whole discussion is pointless if he is making it up as he goes.

I have no idea. He talks about specific types of endings in more detail than someone who simply writes as he goes, so I would imagine he has a basic plan of what he wants to do. His inconsistencies may simply be the fact that he flows in the moment when he is writing the scenes and so this creates conflicts in past work. He has gone back in the past and done a little bit of retconning though.

I would wager he does have a basic outline though.

 

[slackster]

He has gone back in the past and done a little bit of retconning though.

Its a positive sign at least that the characters write themselves. Probably needs to do a few re-writes before releasing to tighten things up, but , hey whatever works for him.

 

[CrysusPariah2]

You must be registered to see the links

Okay, sorry for being a bit late responding. My job had me traveling for a couple days.

So, it's time to get back to work. The poll was overwhelmingly in favor of moving on to Act 4. I always feel bad after doing a poll, because I know some of you feel like your preferences aren't being respected. It's definitely a tyranny of the majority scenario. I wish there was a way I could work harder/faster and was the kind of creator who could work two projects simultaneously. I'm not that gifted unfortunately.

I am putting out an Act 3a release here fairly soon. Don't bother with downloading it unless you're replaying Act 3 for some reason. It is just spelling errors and minor script fixes. Nothing that has an effect on the game play.

This actually works pretty well for me as I have the Act 4 story running through my head and all of the L&J characters on the brain. So, it will be easy to push that story along. With the understanding that after Act 4, I'll be immediately picking up on AHFWG Part 2. I'll do my best not to make you wait too long.

I'll start work on L&J tonight and will keep you updated as that comes together. I'll give you some hints on what's to come. One, of course the MC has a story arc of being separated from all the people he loves and cares for, while struggling with a mental breakdown. It's... going to be rough for him. And of course the wolves are at the door. It's time to learn what's going on with the external threat that's about to hit Lacey and the crew. It might already be obvious, but Barty and company are only a symptom of a much larger problem. Also, a quick mention for folks who might be confused about Abby. She is not a love interest in this story. There's a reason I didn't bother making her sweet and easy to get along with. Let's be honest. The MC needs some abrasive people in his life that aren't trying to jump in bed with him. I wanted her to be an interesting character, but she was never meant to be seen as a 'lovable' person. There will be more characters like that coming out of the woodwork. Don't assume every hot girl that I throw in, is going to be a lover. I just like having non LIs inside the story and it's just more fun to look at pretty girls, than... not pretty girls.

Also, some info on the Good_Guy stat, since some of you have asked. You won't be able to get your score down to zero by just fooling around. There will be some very obvious choices in future acts that will dramatically lower that stat. So, if you do mess around every chance you get AND you make the big asshole choices, then you can and will lock yourself out of the two good endings. If that's your goal, then by all means, shoot for the neutral or bad endings. I will not pull punches with the non-good endings. All of them have some downsides. The bad endings are rough, but are the only way to have a non Lacey ending. The horrific ending? Is exactly how it's described.

Expect replies on DMs tonight and tomorrow. Once I start getting serious with Act 4, my attention to interaction will drop off. It's very distracting to try to overcome my social anxiety while working every spare hour I have on game creation. Please don't take that personally. I will be joining the discord channel setup by Crysus over the holiday break and give folks a chance to ask some questions if you're interested. More info on that to follow.

Be safe and make sure you're taking care of your mental health.

Woohoo! I got a shout out

 

[CrysusPariah2]

Just a friendly question: is this game also available in German?

“Not yet”
We have a few german speaking fans, that probably could be prompted into translating, if the Prof might be interested in such a thing

 

[CrysusPariah2]

He hasn’t actually gone back and retconned anything
What he has done is change facts in newer acts that either conflict with the existing story or at the very least thrown into doubt who was telling the truth, focussing on the aspect that memories can be very subjective

 

[funnythings3785]

He hasn’t actually gone back and retconned anything
What he has done is change facts in newer acts that either conflict with the existing story or at the very least thrown into doubt who was telling the truth, focussing on the aspect that memories can be very subjective

Ah, ok... I was under the impression he did that. I haven't replayed it heavily to know.

 

[Yabba]

Just for some context as to why this is a "miracle" game for me -

I have been on this F95 thing since 2018 -

I have DL 1000;s of games over the years and yes there are some great stories great animators brilliant people creating brilliant art.
But 99.9% of the time you read it,
Have some thoughts
Think that was ok cant wait for the next installment
Move on to the sexy looking thing .

Never has a game done this to me -
Its stayed with me for over the last weeks since i first read it.
It has ripped my heart out so many times
Im fucking seeing it in my dreams !
It has made me look into my past and dragged out trauma i thought was burried.
Its got me posting like a freak -I dont post on here -maybe one post if i liked a certain aspect of a game
Im coming back to get other peoples thoughts and theories to try to help me make sense of what this game is.
Im making my own stupid theories !!


Why is it doing this ?
can someone please explain it .

Ive read all of the Profs games and yes theres a mental health issue generally thrown in there or its very cool in looking at certain things and it has some emotional impact. Nothing comes close to the impact of Love and Jealousy.

How the hell did he create this monster .

 

[NewGuy2022]

Has the Dev given any indication he has written the framework of the story before he started developing the game- If not, this whole discussion is pointless if he is making it up as he goes.

I've been thinking that way for some time, too. It's as if he started a trip knowing where he wants to end up but not planning the route, rest stops along the way, etc. Just, "use the force."

I honestly wonder if the reader wouldn't be better off skipping the first 3 Acts and just starting with Act 4. After all the changes and reversals, I don't know what to believe here any longer.