Comics Collection Melissa N. Collection [2024-06-13] [Melissa N.]

Thalantyr

Member
Dec 1, 2023
269
921
The conversation just felt like Andrew giving up, practically telling Marina to be with James.
I didn't get that impression at all. He wants to use James as part of their disguise, but at this point in the flashback he still wants to go back to being a man and be with Marina once they get out of this mess. Granted, that's almost certainly not how things are going to turn out, but still, I don't think he's given up yet.

The final nail in the coffin will be how he reacts once he wakes up and remembers all of this information (if he remembers it). Will he still want to marry Nikos then? I've been working under the assumption that the Elena personality has taken over his mind every time he's bumped into Joanna, which happened just before his romantic evening with Nikos. I'm not sure "Andrew" was actually conscious that night.
 
Last edited:
Feb 8, 2022
38
33
I didn't get that impression at all. He wants to use James as part of their disguise, but as of right now he still wants to go back to being a man and be with Marina once they get out of this mess. Granted, that's almost certainly not how things are going to turn out, but still, I don't think he's given up yet.

The final nail in the coffin will be how he reacts once he wakes up and remembers all of this information. Will he still want to marry Nikos then?
If it's part of the "disguise" then that's a really forced response in the writing, which is part of why this story is falling apart for me. The instant answer to anything is, "just dig the hole deeper!" The people are after Niko, Marina's suggestion to just drop everything and leave, is the play. Andrew's surgeries are obviously not reversable at this point, so Marina's idea doesn't fit the narrative.
Andrew is fine at this point being a granny, if not, then the whole supernatural element inconsequential.
 

Thalantyr

Member
Dec 1, 2023
269
921
If it's part of the "disguise" then that's a really forced response in the writing, which is part of why this story is falling apart for me. The instant answer to anything is, "just dig the hole deeper!" The people are after Niko, Marina's suggestion to just drop everything and leave, is the play. Andrew's surgeries are obviously not reversable at this point, so Marina's idea doesn't fit the narrative.
Andrew is fine at this point being a granny, if not, then the whole supernatural element inconsequential.
Well, there are a few things:
  1. Very few forced feminization stories, other than those where the MC is physically restrained or brainwashed to the point that they can't think for themselves, provide a reasonable explanation for why the MC doesn't just run away, go to the police, etc. But if they did that there would be no story, so you have to suspend your disbelief.
  2. If Toska is really as powerful as they've been told, there's no way to be sure they'd be safe even if they ran.
  3. I assume that Marina loves her uncle and cousins and doesn't want to see them get hurt. Based on what Seferi told Andrew, those three would suffer some pretty severe consequences if Andrew and Marina suddenly fled.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: antiumbra
Feb 8, 2022
38
33
Well, there are a few things:
  1. Very few forced feminization stories, other than those where the MC is physically restrained or brainwashed to the point that they can't think for themselves, provide a reasonable explanation for why the MC doesn't just run away, go to the police, etc. But if they did that there would be no story, so you have to suspend your disbelief.
  2. If Toska is really as powerful as they've been told, there's no way to be sure they'd be safe even if they ran.
  3. I assume that Marina loves her uncle and cousins and doesn't want to see them get hurt. Based on what Seferi told Andrew, those three would suffer some pretty severe consequences if Andrew and Marina suddenly fled.
You just really can't stomach anyone having any other reaction to this story, other than its great.
 

Thalantyr

Member
Dec 1, 2023
269
921
You just really can't stomach anyone having any other reaction to this story, other than its great.
No. I'm just having a discussion here. If you don't want to have a discussion, I'm not sure why you're posting in a discussion forum. :p

You're welcome to have any opinion you want. I was just responding to something I'm fairly certain you've interpreted incorrectly.
 
Feb 8, 2022
38
33
No. I'm just having a discussion here. If you don't want to have a discussion, I'm not sure why you're posting in a discussion forum. :p

You're welcome to have any opinion you want. I was just responding to something I'm fairly certain you've interpreted incorrectly.
You are getting discussion and debate confused. Also, love the, don't like it leave, argument christ. Again, with your "bullying" tactics. Every time someone post something outside of your opinion you just start invalidating their interpretations and feelings on the story. There is no "correct" way to interpret anything. I read it, I posted my thoughts.
You always come out ready to shut anything down like we are in a competition or something, is comical.
 

Stevedore100

Member
Dec 4, 2023
107
332
No. I'm just having a discussion here. If you don't want to have a discussion, I'm not sure why you're posting in a discussion forum. :p

You're welcome to have any opinion you want. I was just responding to something I'm fairly certain you've interpreted incorrectly, and giving reasoning for why I think you've interpreted it incorrectly.
Yeah, them not taking off WAY before this is pretty standard idiot plot convention, but that's how many stories. Across genres, books, movies, etc, go. You can either roll with it, or not. This story is far from unique in that respect.
Andrew is legitimately scared and has been put in a corner ( a unique corner) where he doesn't see many options. And Marina seems very convincing that she has no romantic interest in James. Maybe that's not true, but she really gives that impression.
 

Thalantyr

Member
Dec 1, 2023
269
921
There is no "correct" way to interpret anything.
If that were true then the word "misinterpret" would not exist. And you've certainly misinterpreted my last few replies to you. I wasn't trying to bully you, or shut you down, or even necessarily change your opinion. I was honestly expecting your next reply to either be "oh, I see" or "no, I don't agree because xyz".

And no, my comment of "I'm not sure why you're posting in a discussion forum" did not mean "like it or leave it". It meant that I have no idea how you expected me (or anyone else) to respond to what you posted, because it now seems like you don't actually want to discuss it. I feel like my responses were perfectly civil, and I don't know why you're angry about it. I think you may be assuming a level of malice from my words that isn't there because of our initial interaction from a few weeks ago. I'm over it.

Edit: And if anyone else thinks I've done wrong, please chime in because I'll need it explained to me.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: antiumbra

Stevedore100

Member
Dec 4, 2023
107
332
My feeling is, if you put up a fairly harsh criticism of a story in a discussion thread about that story, you should expect a response that disagrees with you. As far as I can see, the responses have been fair and merely an argument, prefaced with "I didn't get that impression at all" which indicates it is just one person's opinion. Thalantyr has definite opinions - that's good, and it is always interesting to hear his takes, I have learned much from them (even his horrible horrible horrible ones!) and he expresses them forcefully, but politely.

This particular story has an incredible amount of squiggly plot points that makes its interpretation wildly open to speculation. I don't think anyone has that much faith in even their own idea of what is going on, and it's fair criticism to hold that against it at this point, given how long it already is and the amount of reader investment needed to stay with it. Or one might really like that opaqueness.
 

Thalantyr

Member
Dec 1, 2023
269
921
My feeling is, if you put up a fairly harsh criticism of a story in a discussion thread about that story, you should expect a response that disagrees with you. As far as I can see, the responses have been fair and merely an argument, prefaced with "I didn't get that impression at all" which indicates it is just one person's opinion. Thalantyr has definite opinions - that's good, and it is always interesting to hear his takes, I have learned much from them (even his horrible horrible horrible ones!) and he expresses them forcefully, but politely.

This particular story has an incredible amount of squiggly plot points that makes its interpretation wildly open to speculation. I don't think anyone has that much faith in even their own idea of what is going on, and it's fair criticism to hold that against it at this point, given how long it already is and the amount of reader investment needed to stay with it. Or one might really like that opaqueness.
Just so I'm clear- what exactly do you mean by "forcefully"? Is that something I should be wary of in the future?
 

LadyBoyJay

Member
Jun 12, 2017
236
714
ILikePleatedSkirts

Currently, there are logic errors and plots holes in this story. You are not alone in your criticisms so don't feel like you are. I think most people are just waiting to see how the story plays out and are reserving their judgement until seeing the ending. This type of story feels like it is going to end with a mixed "love it or hate it" reaction. Too many different story ideas have been teased and everyone kind of has their own headcanon now. I'm hopeful that the story plays out in a way that solves most of the issues that I personally have with it. I'm very aware that I might end up totally heartbroken by the end but I'm willing to take that chance.

;)
AphroditeGIF3.gif
 

Thalantyr

Member
Dec 1, 2023
269
921
ILikePleatedSkirts

Currently, there are logic errors and plots holes in this story. You are not alone in your criticisms so don't feel like you are. I think most people are just waiting to see how the story plays out and are reserving their judgement until seeing the ending. This type of story feels like it is going to end with a mixed "love it or hate it" reaction. Too many different story ideas have been teased and everyone kind of has their own headcanon now. I'm hopeful that the story plays out in a way that solves most of the issues that I personally have with it. I'm very aware that I might end up totally heartbroken by the end but I'm willing to take that chance.

;)
View attachment 3307134
Yeah. My argument against premature judgement based on perceived plot holes is that you can't know if there really are plot holes until the work is finished and it didn't resolve the plot holes.

Unrelated, but now that I think of it your theory about James and Joanna reminds me of...
1706556009466.png

All part of God(dess)'s plan. ;)
 

LadyBoyJay

Member
Jun 12, 2017
236
714
Yeah. My argument against premature judgement based on perceived plot holes is that you can't know if there really are plot holes until the work is finished and it didn't resolve the plot holes.

Unrelated, but now that I think of it your theory about James and Joanna reminds me of...
View attachment 3307198

All part of God(dess)'s plan. ;)
It is no coincidence that I'm one of the Battlestar Galatica fans that absolutely loved how it ended. Some people hated it, so it was a very divisive ending.

Also, if anyone would like to check out a new story (not comic) similar to Aphrodite's Mirror, check out Turning into my Girlfriend's Mom!
 

Thalantyr

Member
Dec 1, 2023
269
921
It is no coincidence that I'm one of the Battlestar Galatica fans that absolutely loved how it ended. Some people hated it, so it was a very divisive ending.
I liked where it ended up (I still tear up every time I rewatch the last episode and the Roslin & Adama theme starts playing), but I feel like the way they got there was pretty messy. Most of the last season made it clear that neither the cylons nor the writers actually had a plan, despite the opposite being stated in the opening of every episode. :ROFLMAO:
Still one of my favorite shows of all time.
 
Last edited:

LadyBoyJay

Member
Jun 12, 2017
236
714
I liked where it ended up, but I feel like the way they got there was pretty messy. Most of the last season made it clear that neither the cylons nor the writers actually had a plan, despite the opposite being stated in the opening of every episode. :ROFLMAO:
Still one of my favorite shows of all time.
For me, the final season was perfect. However, I do understand the valid complaints that some fans had. Similar to the final season of Angel, which I also felt was perfect, both shows kind of rushed into things and changed directions without doing the expected amount of buildup. Both shows went from a slow and steady pace from the previous seasons to a much more rapid pace with what felt like multiple seasons of stories being condensed down to just one. Which is what actually happened behind the scenes for both shows. Good examples of how things can end great for some fans yet terrible for others.
 

rebirth095

Member
Jul 25, 2021
180
518
Yeah. My argument against premature judgement based on perceived plot holes is that you can't know if there really are plot holes until the work is finished and it didn't resolve the plot holes.
You're absolutely right, but (and I'll think you'll agree with this based on our past discussions) there have been plot points and dialogue that are very hard to reconcile. An explanation is certainly possible, especially if supernatural aspects do get introduced, but it's just as easily possible to be mistakes in writing due to how long this has gone on. After all, it's not like Melissa's other works haven't ever suffered light/poor characterization/character motivations, etc.

I liked where it ended up (I still tear up every time I rewatch the last episode and the Roslin & Adama theme starts playing), but I feel like the way they got there was pretty messy. Most of the last season made it clear that neither the cylons nor the writers actually had a plan, despite the opposite being stated in the opening of every episode. :ROFLMAO:
Still one of my favorite shows of all time.
Yup, I think in hindsight it was clear that many plot points were being made up as it went along (I mean, if a cast member is able to become one of the Final 5 by just complaining about their lack of importance, I think that says something, lol), or kept purposefully ambiguous so that basically anything could fit. BSG had some great characters, awesome space ship battles, and some decent story arcs but was also clearly not a planned story the way something like Babylon 5 was.

For me, my favorite scene/payoff to a character arc in the finale was Gaius confessing that he knew how to farm. This is a character that reinvented himself because he was ashamed and disgusted by his background. That was defined by the lie of his intelligence, his loyalties, and having spent the majority of the show (and his life) keeping everyone away. Whether or not he deserved it, his growth meant that he was able to make peace of with who he was. It's a small moment but my favorite from the finale.

For me, the final season was perfect. However, I do understand the valid complaints that some fans had. Similar to the final season of Angel, which I also felt was perfect, both shows kind of rushed into things and changed directions without doing the expected amount of buildup. Both shows went from a slow and steady pace from the previous seasons to a much more rapid pace with what felt like multiple seasons of stories being condensed down to just one. Which is what actually happened behind the scenes for both shows. Good examples of how things can end great for some fans yet terrible for others.
I like the premise of how Angel ended, and the individual parts were great. Illyria's "Would you like me to lie to you now" and "I wish to do more violence", and Lindsey's end was poetic. But for as much as it tried to wrap up story lines, it was basically never going to succeed since Whedon hadn't expected the show to be canceled, leaving a lot of the potential story arcs unfinished. Although, obviously I'm biased as a huge Fred/Amy Acker fan and was particularly put off that such an interesting character arc that started in Season 5 was cut short of a true payoff.

There are always going to be fans that have a hard time enjoying a finale because it represents the end of what they love. So you have a really uphill battle on how to deliver that sendoff that feels "big" enough to compensate for the end of that series. I know that a lot of people weren't happy with it, but I loved the ending of Quantum Leap as a kid.

On the other hand, sometimes finales are where the sins of the writers catch up to them. Maybe they didn't plan ahead, so all those little teases meant nothing and they're just slapping together that superficially ties up loose ends (Lost). Maybe the show fails to give the various main characters "what they deserve" (Dexter). Maybe the writers didn't think through the really unfortunate and gross implications of their ending, and stuck with it despite having to lengthen the story due to the show being renewed (How I Met Your Mother).

This is getting to be long enough where "flashback" seems the wrong term, more like "foreverback" I'm getting curious as to how much this story will ultimately go into the future. A few days, months?
What doesn't help is we're getting flashbacks, inside of flashbacks, inside of a dream sequence. Don't forget, that even after this flashback between Elena and Marina is over, we still need to go back and wrap up the conversation and see how Elena/Andrew reacts to "Aphrodite" "returning" this memory. I mean, there's a real strong chance with this last bit of dialogue, we're going back into a flash back to see what Filip did.

If I'm being uncharitable, I'd argue this is padding to draw out the story for Patreon. If I'm more charitable, I think Melissa HAD to do this because she's basically written herself into a situation where no one is trustworthy so the readers are second guessing every little thing. All of this could have been super simplified into a few lines of dialogue where Marina just explained everything in the first level of the flashbacks. But the audience can't trust her, so we're having to go deeper and actually see it play out in the second layer of flashbacks so that we can "trust" that what she says is true.

Of course, that'll go all out the window if we're later told that the flashbacks were only how Marina were describing them and not necessarily how things actually played out. Or if Aphrodite does the same to Andrew/Elena about this hospital trip. At which point I think the vein in my forehead would burst, :ROFLMAO:

For me, the biggest takeaway from this latest part (taking Marina at her word, and also interpreting all this clarification as Melissa trying to nail down and refute certain theories): I think Marina is telling the truth and she/Melissa are justifying and trying to demonstrate that Marina is loyal to Andrew/Elena, and that she's using James, not conspiring with him (this doesn't rule out James using Marina for his own plot).

I'll generally agree that we're not really advancing the actual plot though. It's quite a bit of padding, and there's a lot of redundant panels and dialogue. And I sense that whatever the actual twist is will be revealed in the present, rather than the past. We're getting a bit more motivations for some of these players, although conspicuously absent is Nikos.
 

Thalantyr

Member
Dec 1, 2023
269
921
You're absolutely right, but (and I'll think you'll agree with this based on our past discussions) there have been plot points and dialogue that are very hard to reconcile. An explanation is certainly possible, especially if supernatural aspects do get introduced, but it's just as easily possible to be mistakes in writing due to how long this has gone on. After all, it's not like Melissa's other works haven't ever suffered light/poor characterization/character motivations, etc.
Yes, for sure. But on the other hand, early on in the story there were other plot points that were hard for me to reconcile that ended up having a valid explanation that I hadn't thought of. And given that we're only a little over halfway through the story and there's a ton of room to fill in the blanks, I choose to give Melissa the benefit of the doubt. Especially since that's more fun.

For me, my favorite scene/payoff to a character arc in the finale was Gaius confessing that he knew how to farm. This is a character that reinvented himself because he was ashamed and disgusted by his background. That was defined by the lie of his intelligence, his loyalties, and having spent the majority of the show (and his life) keeping everyone away. Whether or not he deserved it, his growth meant that he was able to make peace of with who he was. It's a small moment but my favorite from the finale.
I really love that scene too, and it's beautifully acted. But it would have hit harder if they'd introduced his father earlier. The bulk of the payoff comes from that scene which was at the beginning of the same episode. That gives me the impression that the writers came up with it on the spot, and they just got lucky that such a beautiful scene also tied up the character so perfectly.

What doesn't help is we're getting flashbacks, inside of flashbacks, inside of a dream sequence.
Can anyone else hear Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien playing faintly in the distance?