Comics Collection Melissa N. Collection [2024-07-27] [Melissa N.]

[Thalantyr]

I've enjoyed similar premises. "The mind makes it real" can be quite fun. I really enjoyed the Sword Art Online doujin by Imitation Moon, where the female characters get corrupted inside VR, and then they force Kirito to enter VR as a female avatar and feminize him mentally as well as physically.

I'm always interested in stories where people are transformed into characters from IPs. One of the ones that I'm working on and debating about turning into a series (to cover other franchises) is a VR story where a beta tester for Overwatch VR accidentally taps into some developer settings, which unlocks a lot of tactile settings that weren't intended for normal game use. As such, he's able to sexually play around as the female characters when in the spawn room. Things start bleeding into the real world (although I hadn't worked out what I wanted to do with the real world side yet. Been having too much fun with the VR side of things and playing around with the different characters and costumes).

Looks like

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if anyone wants to check it out.
And yeah, I've seen many SAO doujins, most of which focus on the androgynous avatar he had in GGO.

 

[LadyBoyJay]

Melissa left an interesting post on Discord.

If anyone has watched the TV series, please let us know your thoughts.

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[misseva88]

Sounds a bit like...
View attachment 3878098



Edit: Actually, now that I think of it, Emory Ahlberg just started up her own riff on this concept on Patreon called "Anywhere But Boring". It's about a male actor who's having trouble breaking into the industry and auditions for a character in a TV series who is supposed to be a prom king type at the start and then comes out as trans and transitions during the story. While trying to win the part, he tells the casting director that he is trans, but hasn't started transitioning yet. He gets cast and figures the show will probably get cancelled quickly but might be good exposure for his career anyway, but the show is a hit and his character in particular becomes a breakout star. So he... kinda commits to it. Seems interesting so far but it's not finished. Currently on part 3 of 5. Sort of a short story.

I like Emory's version, but I'm fairly sure their story is an homage to Maryanne Peters'

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, which is a reworking of an earlier work of MP called

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. Emory is (was?) a Patron of Maryannes and they've often complimented the short stories. So for those who enjoy the concept, this may make for a fun read too.

That's where I really struggle with adding a strong magical element. We're so far into the story and if we had an explaination that this was from magical influence, to me that just raises all sorts of questions as to why was magic able to do X but not Y? Like, let's say that Sofia and Eva are magically on board with this feminization due to this goddess's influence. So why not Marina? Like... I'll be honest: if there really was no one on Andrew's side at all, if this was written a bit like a horror story where everyone Andrew encounters gaslights him, even the one person he thought he could trust starts behaving like he was always Elena, then that would actually be narratively compelling to me if the reveal was that he was being tormented by a god. Kinda like that horror movie, Smile.

Are you familiar with CBlack's

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? It's not a story with a divine influence, but it's a story where a male protagonist steps into a sort of multiverse device to a past event before he gets back to his own timeline. But throughout the story there are ripple effects of a change made in the past where there are changes happening to and around the main character. They don't know what hits them at first, but several minor changes to the life of the lead plus to that of their surroundings ultimately add up. There is a cost to some of these changes. There is a cost to magic.
In Quantum Butterfly these changes aren't magical and there's no grand wizard at the end of the rainbow. But if there is in Aphrodite's Mirror, Marina's happiness could be the cost of the magic used on Andrew/Elena.

If there is magic used to change Andrew into Elena, why should there be a... let's call it a magician bothered with Marina's happiness? The fact Andrew is, for all intents and purposes, stolen away from Marina should be indicative enough of the fact her happiness isn't front and center for the person crafting Andrew into Elena.

In Quantum Butterfly the cost of the main character's transition is

Spoiler

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. If in AM it's the happiness of Marina it would make for an interesting plot device.

 

[rebirth095]

If in AM it's the happiness of Marina it would make for an interesting plot device.

Sure, if it was something that you can look back to and see the give and take. If Marina lost her attractiveness as Andrew gained it. If Elena's skills in bed improved as Marina's worsened. If it was clear that Marina is the sacrifice. Then such a plot could have been interesting.

But an interesting concept by itself doesn't make for a good narrative if it's not executed well. Going back to Game of Thrones: The idea that humans are flawed and can't make good rulers, thus the only successful way of having a good ruler is having an entity connected to the all seeing weirwood trees is an ending that could have been thought provoking. There's many hints that Bran claiming the Iron Throne is actually what the books are building to, and GRRM has written books in the past with this same theme. It seems to be a bit of a fetish of his.

But it goes back to execution. There's no reason this couldn't have worked but just the thought experiment isn't enough. Cutting out lore and setup caused a lot of fans to feel like it was a "twist" for the sake of subverting expectations. I mean, show only people have no idea who Bloodraven is, as the "Three-Eyed Raven" in the show basically is a MacGuffin to empower Bran, without any of the motivations and complexities the book Three-Eyed Crow had.

Sure, the god doesn't need to care about Marina's feelings. But if the end goal is to turn Andrew into Elena, it's easier if the closest person is on board. Hell, part of the back and forth here has been that it can feel contrived that Marina is conveniently called away whenever something crucial is about to happen regarding Andrew's feminization. That would be a non issue if Marina was magically "on team feminization".

Plus, even if Marina's the "odd woman out" as she's the "sacrifice", this still goes back to "what's the point of all this?" Why does Nikos deserve a happy ending? What's the point of feminizing Andrew specifically? If this was written from the POV of the trickster god, and we were getting to enjoy the tormenting of this mortal, then that would be one thing. Or, if it were like one of the stories I'm writing where a hero gets summoned to a fantasy world, and as he gains the powers of the goddess, he physically starts changing to be like the goddess... Then there would be motivation that ties into the needs of the characters. But Andrew's just an actor. The end state of this is being some old guy's wife. What's the payoff?

I've not read Quantum Butterfly. Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[Thalantyr]

But an interesting concept by itself doesn't make for a good narrative if it's not executed well. Going back to Game of Thrones: The idea that humans are flawed and can't make good rulers, thus the only successful way of having a good ruler is having an entity connected to the all seeing weirwood trees is an ending that could have been thought provoking. There's many hints that Bran claiming the Iron Throne is actually what the books are building to, and GRRM has written books in the past with this same theme. It seems to be a bit of a fetish of his.

But it goes back to execution. There's no reason this couldn't have worked but just the thought experiment isn't enough. Cutting out lore and setup caused a lot of fans to feel like it was a "twist" for the sake of subverting expectations. I mean, show only people have no idea who Bloodraven is, as the "Three-Eyed Raven" in the show basically is a MacGuffin to empower Bran, without any of the motivations and complexities the book Three-Eyed Crow had.

Bran's entire story line was completely pointless and amounted to nothing! Fuck that show! Fuck D&D! Fuck GRRM! FUCK!
*starts hyperventilating*

 

[misseva88]

Sure, if it was something that you can look back to and see the give and take. If Marina lost her attractiveness as Andrew gained it. If Elena's skills in bed improved as Marina's worsened. If it was clear that Marina is the sacrifice. Then such a plot could have been interesting.

But an interesting concept by itself doesn't make for a good narrative if it's not executed well. Going back to Game of Thrones: The idea that humans are flawed and can't make good rulers, thus the only successful way of having a good ruler is having an entity connected to the all seeing weirwood trees is an ending that could have been thought provoking. There's many hints that Bran claiming the Iron Throne is actually what the books are building to, and GRRM has written books in the past with this same theme. It seems to be a bit of a fetish of his.

But it goes back to execution. There's no reason this couldn't have worked but just the thought experiment isn't enough. Cutting out lore and setup caused a lot of fans to feel like it was a "twist" for the sake of subverting expectations. I mean, show only people have no idea who Bloodraven is, as the "Three-Eyed Raven" in the show basically is a MacGuffin to empower Bran, without any of the motivations and complexities the book Three-Eyed Crow had.

Sure, the god doesn't need to care about Marina's feelings. But if the end goal is to turn Andrew into Elena, it's easier if the closest person is on board. Hell, part of the back and forth here has been that it can feel contrived that Marina is conveniently called away whenever something crucial is about to happen regarding Andrew's feminization. That would be a non issue if Marina was magically "on team feminization".

In ASOIAF there's power in king's blood. Melisandre used Stannis' blood to create a shadow baby to kill Renly. What did it truly cost Stannis? He was exhausted and because of that he can't do it more than two times, but he got his brother killed at no real expense to himself. The way ser Beric Dondarrion continues to be revived also shows there are instances of blood magic requiring little.

I feel Bran will rule Westeros from Harrenhal, a cursed castle that has weirwood growing everywhere. I feel the Old Gods don't exist and it's actually the weirwood network communicating via a humanoid. The Bloodraven will be replaced by Bran and he'll lose consciousness after his mind is being overtaken by the weirwood. His mind will be overtaken by an external being that controls his plans, ideas and desires.
To a lesser extent that's what's happened to Elena, has it not?

Marina doesn't need to lose her beauty for her to lose a lot. Her life is spiralling downwards, having lost control of most of her personal life.

Plus, even if Marina's the "odd woman out" as she's the "sacrifice", this still goes back to "what's the point of all this?" Why does Nikos deserve a happy ending? What's the point of feminizing Andrew specifically? If this was written from the POV of the trickster god, and we were getting to enjoy the tormenting of this mortal, then that would be one thing. Or, if it were like one of the stories I'm writing where a hero gets summoned to a fantasy world, and as he gains the powers of the goddess, he physically starts changing to be like the goddess... Then there would be motivation that ties into the needs of the characters. But Andrew's just an actor. The end state of this is being some old guy's wife. What's the payoff?

One explanation could be that Marina is obviously incredibly beautiful and someone wanted to create a rift between Marina and Andrew and feminising him would do just that.
An other reason could be, and there is next to zero base for this, but with Marina being a journalist she may have stumbled into a story she needs to be distracted from.

Marina in bed with the inspector is such a weird move. From her internal thought bubble she appears to want to take revenge on Andrew for betraying her, so she also has sex with an older partner. Initially the power dynamic appears to be one where the inspector dominates her living a fantasy of punishing her, but in the end she appears to be the dominant one.
That kind of dynamic reminds me of 2004's Man on Fire, starring Denzel Washington. In it, there's a newspaper reporter who has sex with a special agent of the federal police. He believes it could grow to something more than a transaction, but since she doesn't, she ultimately has the keys to that relationship.

Marina appears to have a personal relationship with the police inspector for... what exactly? Why is she in bed with him? I feel her being a reporter and having a relationship of sorts with the police inspector could be a hint to her working on a story powerful people may want her removed from.

I've not read Quantum Butterfly. Thanks for the recommendation!

No problem, I hope you enjoy it! CBlack is my favourite storytellers in this medium and I think QB is one of his best.

Bran's entire story line was completely pointless and amounted to nothing! Fuck that show! Fuck D&D! Fuck GRRM! FUCK!
*starts hyperventilating*

Much like Disney Star Wars being different from proper Star Wars, like Disney Marvel being different from proper Marvel is Game of Thrones post season 4 very different from GRRMs work.
Bran will have a big role to play in the books. It's no coincidence the twits writing the show left Bran out of the show as soon as George decided those twits ignored his comments and walked away from the show. Brans story involves a lot of magic and those numbnuts figured soccer moms and quarterbacks wouldn't be interested in magic, so they completely omitted it from the show.

 

[Thalantyr]

Bran will have a big role to play in the books.

No he won't. Let's be real, GRRM is never finishing the books. He doesn't know how. If he did, he would have already. A decade ago. Even if he was actually actively writing, he doesn't have enough time to finish. It took him 5 years for Feast for Crows and 6 years for Dance with Dragons. If he were to release Winds of Winter today, it would have taken him 13 years. He's 75 years old. Another 15 years for Dream of Spring would put him at 90.

The reason the show sucked is because GRRM had no good ideas to give to D&D after what he'd already published, and they were shit at coming up with their own ideas, clearly.

 

[LadyBoyJay]

The end state of this is being some old guy's wife. What's the payoff?

Besides the question of what is the payoff, I'm also trying to come up with ideas for how we can get a happy ending with that scenario.

This is what Melissa has said.

I'm trusting Melissa on this. So, I'm trying to trying to figure out a path from where we are currently at in the story, towards a non-dark ending that won't leave a bad taste in our mouths.

If Nikos is the bad guy, an ending with him "winning", should not be an option according to Melissa. However, I do actually want an ending with Nikos and Elena to be happily together, so I'm trying to find creative ways to make that happen. An alternative is that Nikos gets arrested and Andrew/Elena ends up getting back together with Marina. I'm not against that idea, but I'm just not sure how popular that would be. Personally, I'm kind of souring on Marina's as a character. She hasn't "

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" yet but she's very close to doing so in my opinion (some people might feel like she already has). The story hasn't really been built or setup for a lesbian ending, so the odds don't seem likely even though I would be fine with that. The option of turning Elena back into Andrew shouldn't really be possible via real word surgeries, so I don't see very high odds of this happening, but it could be the ending that we get.

Some possible endings with Nikos and Elena living happily ever after.
1. This is all or mostly Aphrodite's fault. Neither Andrew nor Nikos specifically intended to end up with each other but somehow that's the way things have worked out. Maybe the love between Marina and Andrew couldn't be "magically" taken away for some reason so it had to be "destroyed" by playing within the rules of the "real world". Maybe that was why Andrew had to be surgically transformed instead of "magically" transformed. To cover up the plot holes, I'll add the possibility that reality and history are being slowly rewritten. So at the very end of the story, Elena is Elena and has always been Elena. Andrew never existed. The daughters are Elena's biological daughters. This sounds dark but I can see a few ways to brighten this up. Maybe Aphrodite was "saving" the Samaras family. Maybe if she hadn't interfered, one or more people would have gotten killed trying to scam Mr. Toska. Maybe Andrew has been a temporal paradox all along. Just some guesses.

2. This is based on the soap opera theory that Stevedore100 talked about. An actor is playing the role of Andrew/Elena and has lost his grip on reality. Melissa has given us false narration and everything we've seen has been a distorted mix of what viewers are seeing on TV and what the actor playing Andrew/Elena is perceiving while acting. I'm imagining a mix of Tropic Thunder, The Truman Show, Fight Club, and The Usual Suspects. In this scenario, Nikos is just an actor, probably the star, and their love is becoming real. The actress playing Marina is worried and upset about her co-stars behavior and possibly about her role getting demoted or something. It's possible that the actor playing Andrew/Elena might not even look like the way he perceives himself to look right now. He might still be in prosthetics and we the viewers are seeing his false perception of himself. Or maybe all of the surgery has been done and what we see is real. Who knows? Just some wild ideas. This would be a very "highbrow" story concept to reveal during the last chapter. Perhaps too highbrow for an adult comic, so I feel like the odds of this happening are low, but I kinda like it.

3. Nikos could also be a victim. Maybe he is being influenced to do this but not from "Aphrodite". I don't really have too many ideas about who else the mastermind could be, but it's not impossible.

4. There is a possibility that Melissa has a unique opinion regarding "dark endings that won't leave a bad taste in our mouths". Maybe she doesn't consider evil Nikos winning to be a bad outcome if Andrew's identity is dead and Elena is a blissfully happy love slave. It's a possibility.

5. Maybe Andrew is the evil character and really deserves this fate. This could be the last chapter reveal. It might tie into Melissa's recent clue about the TV show "

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". I haven't seen it but from reading a few comments, I have one theory. Maybe Andrew has done something worse than just lose Marina's money. What that would be, I have no idea. We haven't had any hints of Andrew killing someone or being responsible for some member of the Samaras family getting killed. I'll pretend like he did something really bad though. If so, maybe this story is kind of similar to a movie that I've yet to watch but has a similar sounding plot.

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- I haven't watched it yet because no one has been asking me for months to watch it! (Inside joke! Someone here has been trying to get me to watch it and I promise that I will eventually... ) Maybe Andrew is responsible for the death of a woman named Elena. I have no idea if she was related to the family or not. Nikos turned him into her replacement for some reason??? I don't know. Someone else will have to flesh out this theory if they like it. It's another ending that I wouldn't call happy but maybe some fans could consider it to be happy if Andrew was really a monster. Personally, it's too late in the story to change my feelings about Andrew.

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isn't going to be very effective with me, but it's a possibility.

No problem, I hope you enjoy it! CBlack is my favourite storytellers in this medium and I think QB is one of his best.

Quantum Butterfly is a good story. My absolute favorite from CBlack is

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. It's an oldie that might be getting close to 20 years old now. I can't remember if I first saw that on TheSirenSong.net or not. Ugh, now I feel old. It's an oldie but a goodie! I love the simplicity of it!

 

[Thalantyr]

Besides the question of what is the payoff, I'm also trying to come up with ideas for how we can get a happy ending with that scenario.

This is what Melissa has said.

I'm trusting Melissa on this. So, I'm trying to trying to figure out a path from where we are currently at in the story, towards a non-dark ending that won't leave a bad taste in our mouths.

If Nikos is the bad guy, an ending with him "winning", should not be an option according to Melissa. However, I do actually want an ending with Nikos and Elena to be happily together, so I'm trying to find creative ways to make that happen. An alternative is that Nikos gets arrested and Andrew/Elena ends up getting back together with Marina. I'm not against that idea, but I'm just not sure how popular that would be. Personally, I'm kind of souring on Marina's as a character. She hasn't "

You must be registered to see the links

" yet but she's very close to doing so in my opinion (some people might feel like she already has). The story hasn't really been built or setup for a lesbian ending, so the odds don't seem likely even though I would be fine with that. The option of turning Elena back into Andrew shouldn't really be possible via real word surgeries, so I don't see very high odds of this happening, but it could be the ending that we get.

Some possible endings with Nikos and Elena living happily ever after.
1. This is all or mostly Aphrodite's fault. Neither Andrew nor Nikos specifically intended to end up with each other but somehow that's the way things have worked out. Maybe the love between Marina and Andrew couldn't be "magically" taken away for some reason so it had to be "destroyed" by playing within the rules of the "real world". Maybe that was why Andrew had to be surgically transformed instead of "magically" transformed. To cover up the plot holes, I'll add the possibility that reality and history are being slowly rewritten. So at the very end of the story, Elena is Elena and has always been Elena. Andrew never existed. The daughters are Elena's biological daughters. This sounds dark but I can see a few ways to brighten this up. Maybe Aphrodite was "saving" the Samaras family. Maybe if she hadn't interfered, one or more people would have gotten killed trying to scam Mr. Toska. Maybe Andrew has been a temporal paradox all along. Just some guesses.

2. This is based on the soap opera theory that Stevedore100 talked about. An actor is playing the role of Andrew/Elena and has lost his grip on reality. Melissa has given us false narration and everything we've seen has been a distorted mix of what viewers are seeing on TV and what the actor playing Andrew/Elena is perceiving while acting. I'm imagining a mix of Tropic Thunder, The Truman Show, Fight Club, and The Usual Suspects. In this scenario, Nikos is just an actor, probably the star, and their love is becoming real. The actress playing Marina is worried and upset about her co-stars behavior and possibly about her role getting demoted or something. It's possible that the actor playing Andrew/Elena might not even look like the way he perceives himself to look right now. He might still be in prosthetics and we the viewers are seeing his false perception of himself. Or maybe all of the surgery has been done and what we see is real. Who knows? Just some wild ideas. This would be a very "highbrow" story concept to reveal during the last chapter. Perhaps too highbrow for an adult comic, so I feel like the odds of this happening are low, but I kinda like it.

3. Nikos could also be a victim. Maybe he is being influenced to do this but not from "Aphrodite". I don't really have too many ideas about who else the mastermind could be, but it's not impossible.

4. There is a possibility that Melissa has a unique opinion regarding "dark endings that won't leave a bad taste in our mouths". Maybe she doesn't consider evil Nikos winning to be a bad outcome if Andrew's identity is dead and Elena is a blissfully happy love slave. It's a possibility.

5. Maybe Andrew is the evil character and really deserves this fate. This could be the last chapter reveal. It might tie into Melissa's recent clue about the TV show "

You must be registered to see the links

". I haven't seen it but from reading a few comments, I have one theory. Maybe Andrew has done something worse than just lose Marina's money. What that would be, I have no idea. We haven't had any hints of Andrew killing someone or being responsible for some member of the Samaras family getting killed. I'll pretend like he did something really bad though. If so, maybe this story is kind of similar to a movie that I've yet to watch but has a similar sounding plot.

You must be registered to see the links

- I haven't watched it yet because no one has been asking me for months to watch it! (Inside joke! Someone here has been trying to get me to watch it and I promise that I will eventually... ) Maybe Andrew is responsible for the death of a woman named Elena. I have no idea if she was related to the family or not. Nikos turned him into her replacement for some reason??? I don't know. Someone else will have to flesh out this theory if they like it. It's another ending that I wouldn't call happy but maybe some fans could consider it to be happy if Andrew was really a monster. Personally, it's too late in the story to change my feelings about Andrew.

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isn't going to be very effective with me, but it's a possibility.


Quantum Butterfly is a good story. My absolute favorite from CBlack is

You must be registered to see the links

. It's an oldie that might be getting close to 20 years old now. I can't remember if I first saw that on TheSirenSong.net or not. Ugh, now I feel old. It's an oldie but a goodie! I love the simplicity of it!

You didn't consider Seferi?! Do you really want Elena to end up happy with Nikos specifically or you just want her to end up with someone? Seferi is someone I had pegged as a love interest for Elena from his first introduction, especially if Nikos turns out to be evil and disqualifies himself as a love interest in a happy ending. Seferi, on the other hand, is:

• a handsome older gentleman
• probably divorced, since he cheated on his wife
• bisexual, so perhaps less likely to be put off by a woman who was born a man
• seemingly quite sympathetic toward Elena, even in private and when conversing with Joel
• seemingly a bad guy at the moment, but one who is reluctantly doing what needs to be done, perhaps for some greater good, or perhaps he will betray the actual mastermind (Nikos, probably) in order to save Elena

Of course, in order for this to be satisfying, Seferi's presence in the story will need to be ramped up significantly in the chapters that remain.

 

[LadyBoyJay]

You didn't consider Seferi?! He's someone I had pegged as a love interest for Elena from his first introduction, especially if Nikos turns out to be evil and disqualifies himself as a love interest in a happy ending. Seferi, on the other hand, is:

• a handsome older gentleman
• probably divorced, since he cheated on his wife
• bisexual, so perhaps less likely to be put off by a woman who was born a man
• seemingly quite sympathetic toward Elena, even in private and when conversing with Joel
• seemingly a bad guy at the moment, but one who is reluctantly doing what needs to be done, perhaps for some greater good, or perhaps he will betray the actual mastermind in order to save Elena

Of course, in order for this to be satisfying, Seferi's presence in the story will need to be ramped up significantly in the chapters that remain.

I considered Seferi as a possible "good guy" romantic option up until he shot Joel. Now, in hindsight, I do feel like he might have saved Andrew from an identity death. Rereading the hospital scene where Seferi visits Andrew/Elena and shows him a photo of Andrew does feel different in hindsight. Originally, I felt like he was legitimately asking about Andrew because he didn't know about him. Now I feel like he showed the photo to remind Andrew of himself and that's kind of how Andrew reacted when he first saw the photo. So he kind of did a "good" thing, but I feel like he did it for his own reasons, not because he cared about Andrew/Elena.

 

[Thalantyr]

I considered Seferi as a possible "good guy" romantic option up until he shot Joel. Now, in hindsight, I do feel like he might have saved Andrew from an identity death. Rereading the hospital scene where Seferi visits Andrew/Elena and shows him a photo of Andrew does feel different in hindsight. Originally, I felt like he was legitimately asking about Andrew because he didn't know about him. Now I feel like he showed the photo to remind Andrew of himself and that's kind of how Andrew reacted when he first saw the photo. So he kind of did a "good" thing, but I feel like he did it for his own reasons, not because he cared about Andrew/Elena.

Yeah, Seferi's true motives are still a mystery, but the potential is there for him to be a good-ish guy. I think Joel's attitude during that conversation clearly shows him to be a bad guy, so I'm not all that distraught about him getting shot.

I'd also be okay with Elena reconciling with Marina at the end. I still feel like Marina's attitude is justified, given what she doesn't know and how she has been treated thus far. If the full extent of the sinister scheme was revealed to her and she realized that she was angry over a misunderstanding, and she and Elena apologized to each other and decided to stay together, I'd consider that a happy ending.

I don't think Andrew turning out to be evil and/or responsible for the death of the real Elena would qualify as a happy ending, even if you consider being turned into a replacement wife for Nikos to be justified punishment. I'd be reasonably satisfied by an ending like that I suppose, but I think Melissa would still consider that to be pretty dark. I won't go into too many spoilers since you haven't watched it, but even The Skin I Live In doesn't end that way.

 

[LadyBoyJay]

Yeah, Seferi's true motives are still a mystery, but the potential is there for him to be a good-ish guy. I think Joel's attitude during that conversation clearly shows him to be a bad guy, so I'm not all that distraught about him getting shot.

I'll agree. It's a possible story outcome. I can probably think of a few scenarios where Seferi is a legit undercover good guy or is at least a con man with a heart of gold. Seferi is just going to need some quick character development for me (in the shoes of Andrew/Elena) to fall in love with him. The other issue that I have is that Elena feels custom designed for Nikos, both physically and mentally. At this moment in the story, it's hard for me to imagine Elena ending up with someone else.

I'd also be okay with Elena reconciling with Marina at the end. I still feel like Marina's attitude is justified, given what she doesn't know and how she has been treated thus far. If the full extent of the sinister scheme was revealed to her and she realized that she was angry over a misunderstanding, and she and Elena apologized to each other and decided to stay together, I'd consider that a happy ending.

For me, it will depend on the next interaction between Marina and Elena. If Marina continues to be foolish and bitter, I'll feel like Andrew/Elena would be better off without her. I could be reasonably happy with them getting back together with the right storyline. I'm just really not sure how the rest of the fan base will react. When that idea has been brought up before on here/8muses/Discord/Patreon, it has gotten a mixed response. So I'm fine with it, but I don't know if the majority of fans will agree or not. There is a lot of anger towards Marina (fair or not) and there are a lot of fans who will feel misled that were getting a male-female romance ending, not a female-female romance ending. I'm into both so no problem for me.

I don't think Andrew turning out to be evil and/or responsible for the death of the real Elena would qualify as a happy ending, even if you consider being turned into a replacement wife for Nikos to be justified punishment. I'd be reasonably satisfied by an ending like that I suppose, but I think Melissa would still consider that to be pretty dark. I won't go into too many spoilers since you haven't watched it, but even The Skin I Live In doesn't end that way.

In my opinion that isn't a happy ending, but opinions do vary. I love lots of "bad" ending stories (especially the transformations into bimbos, robots, sex dolls, animals, clothing, inanimate objects, video game NPCs, etc) that are way crueler than anything Melissa has ever done. Yet, I enjoy them for particular reasons and I can come up with my own arguably hypocritical justifications for why the darkness is enjoyable. For me, I judge each story individually. A satisfying dark story requires a different formula and needs a writer who understands darker kinks (

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for a mild example or Nebic for an extremely cruel example ). In the unique case of Aphrodite's Mirror, it isn't built like a dark story should be. Combine that with Melissa saying that "it won't have a dark ending that leaves a bitter taste", makes me believe that this will have a happy ending and I agree that it should be based on how the story felt during the first act. The tone was light and our protagonist seemed like a good husband who was trying to help his wife and her family. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Stevedore100]

I'll agree. It's a possible story outcome. I can probably think of a few scenarios where Seferi is a legit undercover good guy or is at least a con man with a heart of gold. Seferi is just going to need some quick character development for me (in the shoes of Andrew/Elena) to fall in love with him. The other issue that I have is that Elena feels custom designed for Nikos, both physically and mentally. At this moment in the story, it's hard for me to imagine Elena ending up with someone else.


For me, it will depend on the next interaction between Marina and Elena. If Marina continues to be foolish and bitter, I'll feel like Andrew/Elena would be better off without her. I could be reasonably happy with them getting back together with the right storyline. I'm just really not sure how the rest of the fan base will react. When that idea has been brought up before on here/8muses/Discord/Patreon, it has gotten a mixed response. So I'm fine with it, but I don't know if the majority of fans will agree or not. There is a lot of anger towards Marina (fair or not) and there are a lot of fans who will feel misled that were getting a male-female romance ending, not a female-female romance ending. I'm into both so no problem for me.


In my opinion that isn't a happy ending, but opinions do vary. I love lots of "bad" ending stories (especially the transformations into bimbos, robots, sex dolls, animals, clothing, inanimate objects, video game NPCs, etc) that are way crueler than anything Melissa has ever done. Yet, I enjoy them for particular reasons and I can come up with my own arguably hypocritical justifications for why the darkness is enjoyable. For me, I judge each story individually. A satisfying dark story requires a different formula and needs a writer who understands darker kinks (

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for a mild example or Nebic for an extremely cruel example ). In the unique case of Aphrodite's Mirror, it isn't built like a dark story should be. Combine that with Melissa saying that "it won't have a dark ending that leaves a bitter taste", makes me believe that this will have a happy ending and I agree that it should be based on how the story felt during the first act. The tone was light and our protagonist seemed like a good husband who was trying to help his wife and her family. That's just my opinion though.

One somewhat unrelated thing to Seferi, going way back to the beginning. After meeting with Elena the 1st time, Seferi gets a (expected) call in which he discussed his meeting and how Mrs Samaras is "the most important piece"

The simplest assumption is he is talking to Joel. However I have considered it could be Marina - the person is calling from a "new number" - Marina at that point was on Crete without her phone ,(Eva or somebody says that they can't contact her). Seferi also talks about his impression of Mrs Samaras as interesting. Joel had already met her, so it seems like Seferi would ask his opinion of her as well (it is possible he did and Melissa leaves that out).
The big problem with this is figuring out a not completely insane rationale for Marina to be involved
. Seferi wants Nikos' family to be scared and suspicious of Toska. Why?
1.because Tosks is bad. Just as Seferi says
2. Seferi doesn't want the proposed deal to go through and is trying to sabotage it.
3.seferi is working with Toska, and they are trying to get Nikos to back out and get a quick million.
4.?
I have no idea why Marina would be involved in any of these unless there is some old family dyed we are not aware of.

 

[Thalantyr]

Joel had already met her, so it seems like Seferi would ask his opinion of her as well (it is possible he did and Melissa leaves that out).

Eh, I don't think you can really infer much of anything definitive from that statement. I mean Marina had also met her, so why wouldn't you assume that he should ask her opinion? I think it's more likely that that statement is a subtle way to establish that Seferi is somewhat sympathetic toward Elena. He sees her as a person, as opposed to Joel who doesn't care what happens to her.

The line about the new phone does seem like it's important. I can't think of why Joel would have a new phone, but I also can't think of why Marina would have a new phone. Nowadays, most people don't leave the house without their phone. It's a tool you don't want to be without in an emergency. Intentionally leaving it behind is a somewhat extreme action. Marina was extremely hurt and upset at Andrew, so much so that she couldn't be in the same city as him. She left her phone so she wouldn't be reminded of him if he tried to call her. Now, if Marina is in on the scheme, then there's no reason for her to be this upset. If she simply wanted to avoid talking to Andrew for a few days, she easily could have brought her phone and simply not answer if he called. After all, in this scenario, she's pretending to be upset with him, so he shouldn't think it's unusual for her not to answer. And especially if she knew she needed her phone to talk to Seferi, why would she leave it behind?

 

[Stevedore100]

I guess the only reason for her to purposely not take besides being pissed is to intentionally isolate herself from everyone, or someone specific. And I agree, it's hard to come up with some rationale for that that doesn't go really off the rails (Marina wanted this to happen to Andrew!!)
But, Seferi does emphasize the new number thing and Marina is the one person we do know that she's not have her phone at that time. Except....Elena, who has a new phone. But Seferi knows that number. Which brings up the question, how does he know the number of this supposedly brand new phone? The daughters would seem prime suspects here, as they provided it to Elena

 

[Thalantyr]

Which brings up the question, how does he know the number of this supposedly brand new phone? The daughters would seem prime suspects here, as they provided it to Elena

The girls gave the number to Joel, so the simplest explanation is that Joel gave it to Seferi.

 

[Alicia Mae]

What stands out to me about Melissa’s post about Favorita is not knowing who the antagonist is. Or even if she protagonist is a good guy or a bad guy. Given that, and knowing the only unaccounted for period of Elena’s time is when she talked to Nikos about the situation, I suspect she seduced him during that time- in a way, becoming the antagonist in their own story.

As Angeliki states, Elena goes straight from the clinic to the salon. This isn’t something you do to talk with your uncle. That’s something you do to impress your husband. If we’re led to believe the upcoming wedding is our happy ending, we need to absolve Nikos of some of his creepiness before we get there.

If Elena comes onto him during this period of time, and says “Pretend I’ve always been your wife and I’ll make it worth your while” then teases him a bit with her milfy body - I can see horn dog Nikos going along with it.

It’s also possible that Elena specifically requested knowing the joy of womanhood, and learning how to make her man feel nice- all crucial to the role if you’re a method actor. Nikos later says “it’s not a game anymore.” So maybe Elena posed it in a playful way to get Nikos onboard?

Adding to this-Elena wakes up the next morning with a hangover, in Nikos’ bed. At the salon, Angeliki said they had “a good time”. This could mean wine, given how each of the steps down the rabbit hole correspond with Elena drinking. This would also explain Nikos’ shocked reaction the next day, when Elena is not interested in having her little pussy played with.

This also means Elena would be living with the consequences of her own decision. Despite all of the outside influences, she chose to escalate their affair beyond kissing and hand holding. And with all of her memories back, she’ll get to choose again- whether her happy ending is with Nikos, or elsewhere.

 

[rebirth095]

To a lesser extent that's what's happened to Elena, has it not?

Honestly, I would say no. In the simplest difference: in Asoiaf, Bran is lured by Bloodraven. He's tempted by the idea that mastering these greenseer powers will make up for the legs he's lost. He doesn't fully know the cost of this power. And the flip side is that Bloodraven is manipulating Bran because he doesn't care what this will cost the boy. All he cares about his fulfilling his vision of what Westeros should be.

We've gotten nothing anywhere close to that with Elena. It's been a mess of motivations.

First it's "hey, that sounds like a fun challenge".
Then it's "well, $30,000 sounds good".
Then it's "Oh, I guess I accidentally promised to stay as Elena and apparently am so clueless I can't think of a single excuse".
Then it's "I'm worried that a mobster will get so enraged to find out that Nikos isn't married that he'll hurt the family."
And then, when he wakes up and realizes he's missing his dick, STILL comes up with absolutely nothing to reverse his situation.

At no point is there even a hint of a Faustian bargain.

Money Can't Buy Happiness by Melissa has a much more coherent "sacrifice" arc for both characters involved. You have a moral guy who starts getting feminized to use the money to help a cause. Only to end up being a vapid, wasteful trophy wife that has lost her morals. On the flip side, the rich guy that created her has to deal with the fact that he's created and is now saddled with a monster that's going to obliterate his wallet. It's poetic. It has clear motivations and arcs. It COULD be a magical story, where there's a Goddess making this transformation possible. But crucially, if you told me that in fact there was a goddamn sapphirefoxx statue making all this possible, I'd be much more willing to believe it in this story because I can see the arc and the progression of the characters.

I'm trusting Melissa on this. So, I'm trying to trying to figure out a path from where we are currently at in the story, towards a non-dark ending that won't leave a bad taste in our mouths.

Frankly speaking, I have no idea what Melissa views as a "non-dark" ending. Like, let's say Marina is the awful bitch that some people seem to think she is (I personally don't). People that hate her, would they consider an ending where she ends up a drug addicted whore be a "happy" ending? I think some of them would.

For people that are submissives and self-insert as Elena, being forcibly feminized and borderline identity death'd is the fantasy. Being turned into the trophy wife of a confident silver fox is the "happy ending". I'm reminded of stories like

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(regrettably, part 1 seems lost to time on the internet), where a sub has their fetishes pushed to the absolute limit. The ending is twisted for sure, but if it's what the character wants and is enjoying, is it a "happy ending"?

There is a possibility that Melissa has a unique opinion regarding "dark endings that won't leave a bad taste in our mouths". Maybe she doesn't consider evil Nikos winning to be a bad outcome if Andrew's identity is dead and Elena is a blissfully happy love slave. It's a possibility.

Here's the thing: I don't think that is necessarily a "unique" opinion. Early on here and definitely on the old forum, there were people who do not care about how abusive Nikos' behavior is. It was just gushing over how handsome he was and what a big cock he had. And the glee and joy over the idea of being Elena and getting to be with such stud. It seems to popup on the patreon comments as well. And if I'm being frank, I feel like a lot of the negativity towards Marina was largely because she was "getting in the way" of that fantasy.

Granted, this is a tough one: When making a TG/TF game, I've struggled with: how do you write the game where the player wants something directly opposite of the character? Perverted Education comes to mind. In theory, the main character should be resisting their feminization. But all the "fun" scenes involve the feminization. So if you play the way the character should act, it causes the game to stall out until the devs add forced events to push the story forward. On the flip side, some players are just their to feminize their characters. Which has the opposite problem of how do you pace out the change if the player is diving into the feminization as hard as possible?

So when we're talking about a "good ending" for a forced feminization story, what does that mean?

So personally, I don't really look at it as a matter of "trust", but simply put that those words mean VERY different things to different people, and Melissa has been purposefully vague across the board, making it difficult to understand her perspective.

Like, does she think that High Heeled Journey was a non-dark ending? What about That's a Job for a Milf? Or Tug of War?

Is the character "making peace" with their feminization even if they aren't trans considered enough for it not to be a "dark" ending? Is it enough that the "bad guys" get some kind of punishment? Or is it just about satisfying the wish-fulfilment of the audience so that they can enjoy self-inserting into the story?

If we’re led to believe the upcoming wedding is our happy ending, we need to absolve Nikos of some of his creepiness before we get there.

The problem is the creepiness was there from the very start. And the problem I see: if we make the claim that Nikos was only "creepy" because of manipulation from an outside force, and that he wouldn't have behaved that way otherwise... then how is it a happy ending if he ends up with Elena. Effectively, that would mean that he only wanted this because of this "mind control". If he really is a good guy, then when his senses came back he should be HORRIFIED that he's married to his niece's feminized husband. Even IF he has a fetish for feminization, if he was a moral man, then he would know that lines are crossed. I'm assuming we can all relate to that where we all have some dark kinks. But there's a huge difference over those kinks playing out in role play or in fiction, and doing that to an actual person.

Just repeating myself but wanted to say this explicitly: If he was a good guy, he wouldn't marry Elena. If he is a bad guy, than I don't see how him getting what he wants is a "good/non-dark" ending.

 

[Thalantyr]

The problem is the creepiness was there from the very start. And the problem I see: if we make the claim that Nikos was only "creepy" because of manipulation from an outside force, and that he wouldn't have behaved that way otherwise... then how is it a happy ending if he ends up with Elena. Effectively, that would mean that he only wanted this because of this "mind control". If he really is a good guy, then when his senses came back he should be HORRIFIED that he's married to his niece's feminized husband. Even IF he has a fetish for feminization, if he was a moral man, then he would know that lines are crossed. I'm assuming we can all relate to that where we all have some dark kinks. But there's a huge difference over those kinks playing out in role play or in fiction, and doing that to an actual person.

Just repeating myself but wanted to say this explicitly: If he was a good guy, he wouldn't marry Elena. If he is a bad guy, than I don't see how him getting what he wants is a "good/non-dark" ending.

I think you're arguing against someone else's theory regarding Nikos being mind controlled. Alicia was saying that perhaps Elena has been seducing a completely lucid Nikos. In that scenario, it's still shitty of him to fool around with his niece's husband, but at least he's not an irredeemable monster who brainwashed, enslaved, and transformed someone's body against their will.

Regarding Nikos' earliest creepiness (kissing Andrew several times before and after the Toska dinner), I have previously hypothesized that there are a few small windows where Andrew could have slipped into the Elena persona while drunk and not remember it. The first is right after the first dinner with just the family. The next morning when Andrew arrives at the salon for his very first makeover, he mentions that he's hungover. Perhaps something happened between Andrew and Nikos after dinner. After that makeover, the comic skips ahead 3 days (Andrew says he's been practicing walking in heels for the past 3 days). It's possible there were other drunken interactions with Nikos during that time. And then a big one would be after the Toska dinner, the next morning Andrew wakes up in Nikos' bed wearing a nightgown without remembering how he got there. Who dressed him like that? Why didn't he sleep in his own bed? Hmm...

In this scenario, Andrew is (sort of) innocent because he can't control the character when he's drunk, and he might not even know about it and therefore doesn't know that he shouldn't be drinking. And by the time he figures out what he's been doing to himself, he's happy to be Elena and to be with Nikos, and likely will never tell Nikos that he's only with him because he accidentally let a character take over his brain. Nikos is therefore innocent of forcibly feminizing Andrew or knowingly taking advantage of him, but he is guilty of having an affair with his niece's husband. This guilt could be somewhat mitigated if a) Nikos knew it was an unhappy marriage, and b) Marina is able to find someone better suited for her, like James. In this case, there could be a happy ending where Elena and Nikos end up together and Marina and James end up together.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm still on board with the "Nikos is evil" theory being the most likely, but this is just food for thought.

 

[rebirth095]

I think you're arguing against someone else's theory regarding Nikos being mind controlled. Alicia was saying that perhaps Elena has been seducing a completely lucid Nikos. In that scenario, it's still shitty of him to fool around with his niece's husband, but at least he's not an irredeemable monster who brainwashed, enslaved, and transformed someone's body against their will.

Yes, you're right. I was originally going to hammer in on Nikos being creepy before the surgery, but to be frank, I deleted it all because I've gone over those scenes so many times, if people aren't picking up on that or disagree that those scenes portray Nikos as rather screwed up, than there's not much more I can add.

That said, my main point (which you did your hardest to try to find another way it could play out) is simply: if Nikos was a good guy, he wouldn't marry Elena. If he is a bad guy, than I don't see how him getting what he wants is a "good/non-dark" ending.

Like, at best, the scenario you've laid out is that Andrew accidentally hit on Nikos while drunk. Nikos is still the bad guy for taking up that offer. Even if they're in an unhappy marriage, you don't fix it by fucking one of the two involved. Buy them a couples therapist or something.

Now, maybe we're going to reveal that it was poorly phrased, but this whole "innocent misunderstanding" goes completely out the window with the whole "our family is in danger" plot. If Elena actually told the family "Toska is a dangerous man and will hurt us if something seems amiss, so treat me as if I always was Elena for the time being", then Nikos is sleeping with a woman under duress. She can "seem" to give consent, but you're taking advantage of a person that's vulnerable. That's fucked up. Hell, rewind for a second. Nikos is the one that says "Oh no! Andrew, you accidentally committed to being Elena for weeks to come! That's a shame. Guess you're stuck doing that!"

Even if you tried to interpret that as he lays it out there, and then interprets Andrew staying as Elena to mean Andrew WANTS to be Elena, that's a very selective and selfish interpretation on Nikos' part. While I completely agree that we have enough blank spaces that we could be told that Andrew accidentally led Nikos on, we also have plenty of scenes and evidence that Nikos should be quite aware that Andrew is not doing this fully willingly.

Again, shit like:

And especially something like this. For pretending that Elena isn't Andrew, this is pretty explicitly telling Andrew to give up and stay Elena forever.

It's as if Nikos thinks he can pleasure/fuck the Andrew out of Elena. That's not wanting a loving relationship. That's wanting Elena to be something specific (which he consistently demands out of her).

It's good to see if there's other interpretations, especially in a speculative series like this. I've mentioned it before, and I really don't mean this as an insult to the author, but I do have to wonder if there's some sloppy writing earlier on, or in certain scenes, that if there was the opportunity to retcon and edit, we'd have a much clearer picture?