RPGM Mistress vs Slave [v3.0] [Noxurtica]

[DawnCry]

Talking about what others said... yes, it would be interesting playing as the human princess as sub, however the only reasonable way for it to happen would be in quite a bit into the future, an easy way for it to happen would be related to when the jobs are ready, some of them could easily make the elf princess more sadistic or dominant and the human princess may want to try something new related to it our of boredom.

But still the human princess can't act as a sub in the starting part of the game, it would need to advance quite a bit before anything like that may happen.

Now, having said that... depending on how the game develops it may be interesting to add "elf princess way of thinking" and how it keeps evolving.

For example having the elf princess stats start as:

-Personality: Kind (doesn't like to see people suffer, willing to help those in need)
-Obedience: None (she won't obey your orders unless she is suffering a threat)
-Kingdom/citicen relationship: Merciful (those in power have to do as much as they can to protect their people)
-Relationship with the princess: Hate
-What she thinks of humans: Beasts (she is finding humans hateful because of the war and their actions)

But with training and circunstances it could change quite a bit:

Personality: Kind <-> Indifferent <-> Masochistic <-> Sadistic
Obedience: Extremely dominant <-> Dominant <-> None <-> Submissive <-> Extremely submissive
Kingdom/citicen relationship: Merciful <-> Indifferent <-> Utilitarian <-> Hate
Relationship with the princess: Hate <-> Dislike <-> Indifferent <-> Like <-> Love
What she thinks of humans: Inferiority <-> Beasts <-> Indifference <-> Like <-> Superiority

This is just a tiny way to show how her thinking can evolve during training and events, having said that there are more aspects that could be developed, mainly on the side of fetishes and sexual inclinations of both character, the elf and human princesses.

Following that line of thinking if for example we train the elf princess by giving her pain, the human princess will tend to be more sadistic while the elf princess would tend to be masochistic, or for example if the human princess has her continually worship her shoes or feet the elf princess may develop a feet/shoes fetish and starts to enjoy or even loves doing it.

Overall I think this would make the relationship more complex and interesting, and seeing that it will be the main focus on the game it could be necessary at some point. However everything depends on the development.

P.D: I played long live the queen too, it is a good game but sometimes a bit too random, for example there aren't enough cruel options to truly feel that the MC would be willing to kill her father in a certain ending, it feels too much of a change, even more I believe that the "magic element" in the story isn't explored enough and the political implications of choices there aren't truly enough of them to be used as a reference.

But don't take it the wrong way, I did enjoy the game and I still have it on steam. In fact I did even cheat a bit too see all endings .

P.D2: I don't think there is a lot of interest in playing as the elf princess, I think that if you find a way to let the elf princess be dominant towards the human princess it could be enough.

 

[Kat123456]

Noxurtica I'm glad you took my advice well, but please don't misunderstand. I am not trying to say that you should build the game the way I say, or that the game should be taken in a specific direction concerning the gameplay and/or the dynamic between the two queens. Rather, what I am saying essentially boils down to the oldest and most discussed issue in the history of narrative: showing vs telling.

The way it is now, the game is TELLING me what the story is. Instead my earlier suggestions were aimed at giving you ideas for SHOWING your players what the story is: you can use the method I recommended, a similar one, one based on Long Live the Queen, or something else entirely, it doesn't matter, mine were just examples and nothing more. What matters is that you show, not tell. And in a videogame, the best way of accomplishing this is establishing a clear, set in stone, "this is my game and this is what it is about" identity in terms of not just story, but also (and especially) gameplay. And then you use that identity to convey what the story is.

Allow me to make an example. I want to make a game where the goal is to find four magic stones to seal an evil being: that is the basic premise of the game, ok? So I could open with a big, long-winded narrative, in which I explain why Bad McEvildude was dangerous and needed to be sealed away, and how these magical stones were the only thing that could seal him away, and now the seal has been breached and so the only way of saving the world is sending a hero on a journey to find those stones. This would be telling the player what the story is.
OR, I could have the game start with a big fancy image, a flashback, a visual equivalent of "once upon a time", in which we see Bad McEvildude ravage a city. Then the player finds himself in control of the main character, and plays through a simple tutorial that explains to him what he's supposed to do: as the last challenge of the tutorial, he uses the skills he has acquired (these skills could be anything: timing for jumps if it's a platformer, aim if it's a shooter, tactical decision makin if it's a visual novel with management elements, it doesn't matter) to overcome one last obstacle, and behind this obstacle he finds a stone with a unique symbol on it. At this point the player is immediately shown another big fancy image, of Bad McEvildude's rampage being stopped by a giant magical seal: this magical seal is held in place by four stones, each with a unique symbol on it, and one of them is the one the player just found.

Just by seeing that the player will go "oh ok, I just found that one stone, so the goal of the game must be finding the other three". And just like that, I have managed to get the player to understand what the game is about and what his goal within it is, without writing a single word.
Now naturally, the "without writing a single word" bit is irrelevant to you, because this is mainly a visual noval and so of course there's going to be dialogue. But my point still stands: try and weave together dialogues and gameplay mechanics, and have them come together to create something that will show the players, rather than tell them, what the story/goal is.
Naturally,in order for you to do this you need to first and foremost decide how the game's core gameplay will flow: I want to make it very clear, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise, that this is YOUR decision.

My professional advice doesn't matter, the likings of people in this forum don't matter, the trends on Steam don't matter: you, and you alone, decide what the game's core gameplay is about. Will it be a puzzle game? A platformer? A minigame-based deal? A visual novel with management elements akin to Long Live the Queen? A visual novel with looting/crafting elements like Kamidori Alchemy Meister (another game I recommend: come for the porn, stay because it's a genuinely well designed game)? A rythm game, a memory game, a Candy Crush clone, a point-and-click adventure, something else entirely? YOU, and nobody else, decide. It's your big responsibility, your mission statement, your hill to die on: I must stress that every single decision you'll make for developing the game will depend entirely on this one, so this, before you even start, is the single most crucial and most decisive moment in the entire development process. Think long and hard about it, take your time, try various things, play various games for reference, brainstorm with your colleagues in order to come up with a unique, recognizable identity for your game, and then make your decision. And then stick to it, come hell or high water.

And then think hard about how you can develop the mechanics derived from this decision in such a way, to create the effect I was talking about, to show people the story instead of telling them about it. You want people to start playing the game, and immediately begin learning about how the game works, how the mechanics can be used, how things can be done. And as they do that, you ALSO let them discover the plot: just lecturing them about the plot before the game's proper starts feels like homework, and that's not fun. Because remember: before the whole concept of "reward" I explained earlier, before the theory and the marketing strategies, before the debates on identity and visibility, before the plot and, yes, before the porn, there is the simple fact that a game is supposed to be, first and foremost, fun. So that should always be your primary goal.

As for me providing professional advice for free... Look, let me put it this way: the world is collapsing. Pandemics, wars, rampant nationalism paving the way for dictatorships, social injustice, crumbling economy: in this huge chaos, there are a bunch of creative guys, scattered haphazardly all over the planet, who're trying to bring some fun, some distraction, some entertainment to the masses using nothing but their imagination. I believe those guys should help each other out. That's all there is to it.

 

[dark_dragon7]

Yes, we're going to explore a lot of fetishes, including the ones you listed.

nice will defently come back to this game hopefully you can play as the sub

 

[Noxurtica]

TBH the appeal of the role-reversal is being in the position of the queen acted submissively. Totally understand if that isn't the vibe you want for the game but the reason people want it is due to wanting to play as the queen being submissive.

Hopefully the bug fix for the repeat of the hand kiss scene happens soon, will give this game another chance because I love the political aspect of the game.

I second recommending Long Live the Queen. It isn't an erotic game at all but it is one of the best indie games I've played. There's a pretty interesting story under the hood and I've sunk 20 hours into it according to Steam.

That's a good point. We'll explore the human princess as protagonist sub, too.

While its a fine idea to have the queen as sub, that should be added later.
Rather have 1 well made route that gets developed at reasonable speed, than 2 routes that take forever to develop.
Nothing is worse than games that got lots of routes but all just ends in under development.

Yes, this is a very big issue, which is why we're not focusing on player as the elf princess until we finish the human princess.

 

[Noxurtica]

Noxurtica I'm glad you took my advice well, but please don't misunderstand. I am not trying to say that you should build the game the way I say, or that the game should be taken in a specific direction concerning the gameplay and/or the dynamic between the two queens. Rather, what I am saying essentially boils down to the oldest and most discussed issue in the history of narrative: showing vs telling.

The way it is now, the game is TELLING me what the story is. Instead my earlier suggestions were aimed at giving you ideas for SHOWING your players what the story is: you can use the method I recommended, a similar one, one based on Long Live the Queen, or something else entirely, it doesn't matter, mine were just examples and nothing more. What matters is that you show, not tell. And in a videogame, the best way of accomplishing this is establishing a clear, set in stone, "this is my game and this is what it is about" identity in terms of not just story, but also (and especially) gameplay. And then you use that identity to convey what the story is.

Allow me to make an example. I want to make a game where the goal is to find four magic stones to seal an evil being: that is the basic premise of the game, ok? So I could open with a big, long-winded narrative, in which I explain why Bad McEvildude was dangerous and needed to be sealed away, and how these magical stones were the only thing that could seal him away, and now the seal has been breached and so the only way of saving the world is sending a hero on a journey to find those stones. This would be telling the player what the story is.
OR, I could have the game start with a big fancy image, a flashback, a visual equivalent of "once upon a time", in which we see Bad McEvildude ravage a city. Then the player finds himself in control of the main character, and plays through a simple tutorial that explains to him what he's supposed to do: as the last challenge of the tutorial, he uses the skills he has acquired (these skills could be anything: timing for jumps if it's a platformer, aim if it's a shooter, tactical decision makin if it's a visual novel with management elements, it doesn't matter) to overcome one last obstacle, and behind this obstacle he finds a stone with a unique symbol on it. At this point the player is immediately shown another big fancy image, of Bad McEvildude's rampage being stopped by a giant magical seal: this magical seal is held in place by four stones, each with a unique symbol on it, and one of them is the one the player just found.

Just by seeing that the player will go "oh ok, I just found that one stone, so the goal of the game must be finding the other three". And just like that, I have managed to get the player to understand what the game is about and what his goal within it is, without writing a single word.
Now naturally, the "without writing a single word" bit is irrelevant to you, because this is mainly a visual noval and so of course there's going to be dialogue. But my point still stands: try and weave together dialogues and gameplay mechanics, and have them come together to create something that will show the players, rather than tell them, what the story/goal is.
Naturally,in order for you to do this you need to first and foremost decide how the game's core gameplay will flow: I want to make it very clear, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise, that this is YOUR decision.

My professional advice doesn't matter, the likings of people in this forum don't matter, the trends on Steam don't matter: you, and you alone, decide what the game's core gameplay is about. Will it be a puzzle game? A platformer? A minigame-based deal? A visual novel with management elements akin to Long Live the Queen? A visual novel with looting/crafting elements like Kamidori Alchemy Meister (another game I recommend: come for the porn, stay because it's a genuinely well designed game)? A rythm game, a memory game, a Candy Crush clone, a point-and-click adventure, something else entirely? YOU, and nobody else, decide. It's your big responsibility, your mission statement, your hill to die on: I must stress that every single decision you'll make for developing the game will depend entirely on this one, so this, before you even start, is the single most crucial and most decisive moment in the entire development process. Think long and hard about it, take your time, try various things, play various games for reference, brainstorm with your colleagues in order to come up with a unique, recognizable identity for your game, and then make your decision. And then stick to it, come hell or high water.

And then think hard about how you can develop the mechanics derived from this decision in such a way, to create the effect I was talking about, to show people the story instead of telling them about it. You want people to start playing the game, and immediately begin learning about how the game works, how the mechanics can be used, how things can be done. And as they do that, you ALSO let them discover the plot: just lecturing them about the plot before the game's proper starts feels like homework, and that's not fun. Because remember: before the whole concept of "reward" I explained earlier, before the theory and the marketing strategies, before the debates on identity and visibility, before the plot and, yes, before the porn, there is the simple fact that a game is supposed to be, first and foremost, fun. So that should always be your primary goal.

As for me providing professional advice for free... Look, let me put it this way: the world is collapsing. Pandemics, wars, rampant nationalism paving the way for dictatorships, social injustice, crumbling economy: in this huge chaos, there are a bunch of creative guys, scattered haphazardly all over the planet, who're trying to bring some fun, some distraction, some entertainment to the masses using nothing but their imagination. I believe those guys should help each other out. That's all there is to it.

Thanks for the advice. Again, I appreciate you taking the time to give constructive feedback.

 

[Noxurtica]

Talking about what others said... yes, it would be interesting playing as the human princess as sub, however the only reasonable way for it to happen would be in quite a bit into the future, an easy way for it to happen would be related to when the jobs are ready, some of them could easily make the elf princess more sadistic or dominant and the human princess may want to try something new related to it our of boredom.

But still the human princess can't act as a sub in the starting part of the game, it would need to advance quite a bit before anything like that may happen.

Now, having said that... depending on how the game develops it may be interesting to add "elf princess way of thinking" and how it keeps evolving.

For example having the elf princess stats start as:

-Personality: Kind (doesn't like to see people suffer, willing to help those in need)
-Obedience: None (she won't obey your orders unless she is suffering a threat)
-Kingdom/citicen relationship: Merciful (those in power have to do as much as they can to protect their people)
-Relationship with the princess: Hate
-What she thinks of humans: Beasts (she is finding humans hateful because of the war and their actions)

But with training and circunstances it could change quite a bit:

Personality: Kind <-> Indifferent <-> Masochistic <-> Sadistic
Obedience: Extremely dominant <-> Dominant <-> None <-> Submissive <-> Extremely submissive
Kingdom/citicen relationship: Merciful <-> Indifferent <-> Utilitarian <-> Hate
Relationship with the princess: Hate <-> Dislike <-> Indifferent <-> Like <-> Love
What she thinks of humans: Inferiority <-> Beasts <-> Indifference <-> Like <-> Superiority

This is just a tiny way to show how her thinking can evolve during training and events, having said that there are more aspects that could be developed, mainly on the side of fetishes and sexual inclinations of both character, the elf and human princesses.

Following that line of thinking if for example we train the elf princess by giving her pain, the human princess will tend to be more sadistic while the elf princess would tend to be masochistic, or for example if the human princess has her continually worship her shoes or feet the elf princess may develop a feet/shoes fetish and starts to enjoy or even loves doing it.

Overall I think this would make the relationship more complex and interesting, and seeing that it will be the main focus on the game it could be necessary at some point. However everything depends on the development.

P.D: I played long live the queen too, it is a good game but sometimes a bit too random, for example there aren't enough cruel options to truly feel that the MC would be willing to kill her father in a certain ending, it feels too much of a change, even more I believe that the "magic element" in the story isn't explored enough and the political implications of choices there aren't truly enough of them to be used as a reference.

But don't take it the wrong way, I did enjoy the game and I still have it on steam. In fact I did even cheat a bit too see all endings .

P.D2: I don't think there is a lot of interest in playing as the elf princess, I think that if you find a way to let the elf princess be dominant towards the human princess it could be enough.

Great suggestions. It's going to be a lot of work to implement all of that, but I like the idea of adding stats to the elf to make her more dynamic. We'll definitely consider it.

 

[RagueltheUFO]

I don't know if anyone pointed out a glitch yet, but when I went to the meeting to talk about the plague, I noticed that there was an error when I went back. I checked the blue arrow to see what else I could do and it just repeated the scene. When the scene ended, the screen went to black and won't fix itself.

At the same time, I got a repeated scene with the elf princess from the first time the game tells you that you can make her do work. Her score doesn't go up, but it won't let me actually command her on this specific day.

 

[RagueltheUFO]

Now that I finished the next portion of the game, I do have questions and minor suggestions.

I can't help but think about how the events happening in game are reflecting events happening in real life. Ignoring that, I believe that the human princess should be rewarded more for being manipulative and crafty than resorting to violence. So far, the summer party have not been sympathetic enough to ever side with them. They literally are "ignore what the common folks do. Let them die. Kill them for speaking up." It feels like its such an extreme that it just makes more sense to go for the winter party who are always sympathetic and try to talk it out.

The game mentions a balance but I don't think the summer party really has any influence until the cousin returns from the war. I wonder if the human princess really needs to be the one that has to have the crown. Like depending on your options should determine if she actually cares or not. If you're crafty, you can have it both ways but if you're more violent with the approach, I don't think it would end well overall.

I chose to side with the winter party twice to help the people and to talk to the people. I think having the public opinion being high is important because of how the commonfolk are the ones that help the kingdom in the first place. I know Long Live the Queen was mentioned. Played the game and love it. Still hard to get 100% because I suck at being a horrible person in game. But I always make sure the commoners are happy even at the cost of the nobles getting annoyed simply because I don't want to play the whole game doing everything right but then get a bad ending because I pissed off all the commoners while appeasing the nobles. Because you know...if you get rid of the commoners, you have no one to rule so its all pointless in the end.

I also wonder about the jobs the elf princess will do. I wonder if its possible to have blackmail material when you use her as a honey trap.

 

[Kat123456]

They literally are "ignore what the common folks do. Let them die. Kill them for speaking up." It feels like its such an extreme that it just makes more sense to go for the winter party who are always sympathetic and try to talk it out.

This is a very valid point. It is what I call the "Avatar syndrome": remember Avatar, the big sci-fi movie from a few years ago? The whole conflict of that movie lied within the protagonist's loyalties: would he remain loyal to his world and his army, or would he defect to the aliens' side? It was such a poignant, heart-wrenching conflict... In theory: but in practice, the protagonist's superior in the army was such a disgusting, fascist scumbag, that OF COURSE you knew from the start the protagonist was going to defect.

Essentially, by depicting one side as too scummy, too far gone into "no sympathy" territory, you cheapen the protagonist's choice of allegiance, because if one party is saintly and one party is scum then of course people are going to side with the former. In short: the more exaggerated a characterization, the less effective its impact on the story. A more subtle writing would be advisable.

 

[Noxurtica]

I don't know if anyone pointed out a glitch yet, but when I went to the meeting to talk about the plague, I noticed that there was an error when I went back. I checked the blue arrow to see what else I could do and it just repeated the scene. When the scene ended, the screen went to black and won't fix itself.

At the same time, I got a repeated scene with the elf princess from the first time the game tells you that you can make her do work. Her score doesn't go up, but it won't let me actually command her on this specific day.

Thanks a lot for reporting the bugs! They will be fixed in the next patch.

 

[Noxurtica]

Now that I finished the next portion of the game, I do have questions and minor suggestions.

I can't help but think about how the events happening in game are reflecting events happening in real life. Ignoring that, I believe that the human princess should be rewarded more for being manipulative and crafty than resorting to violence. So far, the summer party have not been sympathetic enough to ever side with them. They literally are "ignore what the common folks do. Let them die. Kill them for speaking up." It feels like its such an extreme that it just makes more sense to go for the winter party who are always sympathetic and try to talk it out.

The game mentions a balance but I don't think the summer party really has any influence until the cousin returns from the war. I wonder if the human princess really needs to be the one that has to have the crown. Like depending on your options should determine if she actually cares or not. If you're crafty, you can have it both ways but if you're more violent with the approach, I don't think it would end well overall.

I chose to side with the winter party twice to help the people and to talk to the people. I think having the public opinion being high is important because of how the commonfolk are the ones that help the kingdom in the first place. I know Long Live the Queen was mentioned. Played the game and love it. Still hard to get 100% because I suck at being a horrible person in game. But I always make sure the commoners are happy even at the cost of the nobles getting annoyed simply because I don't want to play the whole game doing everything right but then get a bad ending because I pissed off all the commoners while appeasing the nobles. Because you know...if you get rid of the commoners, you have no one to rule so its all pointless in the end.

I also wonder about the jobs the elf princess will do. I wonder if its possible to have blackmail material when you use her as a honey trap.

Thanks for the feedback. We're still working on adding more depth to the two parties, so it won't be too black and white as the plot advances. There are going to be different endings, so one of those things may be one where she resigns and instead enjoys life with the elf.

I'm looking forward to trying out "Long Live the Queen". It seems like it will be excellent material for both plot and game development reference. You will be able to be the "good guy" without having a bad ending, but we plan to make it very difficult to pull that off.

That's a great idea. We will eventually move on to the human princess having the option to whore out the elf. Blackmail could be one of those things included.

 

[Noxurtica]

This is a very valid point. It is what I call the "Avatar syndrome": remember Avatar, the big sci-fi movie from a few years ago? The whole conflict of that movie lied within the protagonist's loyalties: would he remain loyal to his world and his army, or would he defect to the aliens' side? It was such a poignant, heart-wrenching conflict... In theory: but in practice, the protagonist's superior in the army was such a disgusting, fascist scumbag, that OF COURSE you knew from the start the protagonist was going to defect.

Essentially, by depicting one side as too scummy, too far gone into "no sympathy" territory, you cheapen the protagonist's choice of allegiance, because if one party is saintly and one party is scum then of course people are going to side with the former. In short: the more exaggerated a characterization, the less effective its impact on the story. A more subtle writing would be advisable.

Thanks for the feedback. There will be more depth later on for both parties as the plot progresses.

 

[Lexan626]

Is it just me who thinks it's a little weird that Elfina have a tiara in her sprite but not in the art?

 

[Deleted member 1771050]

This is a very valid point. It is what I call the "Avatar syndrome": remember Avatar, the big sci-fi movie from a few years ago? The whole conflict of that movie lied within the protagonist's loyalties: would he remain loyal to his world and his army, or would he defect to the aliens' side? It was such a poignant, heart-wrenching conflict... In theory: but in practice, the protagonist's superior in the army was such a disgusting, fascist scumbag, that OF COURSE you knew from the start the protagonist was going to defect.

Essentially, by depicting one side as too scummy, too far gone into "no sympathy" territory, you cheapen the protagonist's choice of allegiance, because if one party is saintly and one party is scum then of course people are going to side with the former. In short: the more exaggerated a characterization, the less effective its impact on the story. A more subtle writing would be advisable.

First of all: sorry to bark in just like that hahaha

Sooo while I do agree with your take on characterization, I don't see it as a problem, mostly because this is a game about politcs. The narrative, different from a book or film, makes us actually live the life of the character, in this case the princess. And as a princess you sometimes need to put up with shit you don't think it's right to mantain support and power. Sadly, the build ended before the MC started to suffer from this conflict. For example, my complete alignment with the people and the Winter Party is bound to end badly, right? I'm sure the devs have plans to make it interesting even if one of the sides could be read for me (and most) as the obvious good one.

Plus I'm sure there are people who side with the other side, real life events shows it haha
Ps: sorry for the strange wording, I'm not fluent on English, and it's really hard to express myself properly through it.

 

[LeonOne994]

This game is looking good!

 

[Elmsdor]

I hugely enjoy politics, but having yuri elements into this? This is awesome. We all like intrigue afterall! And I enjoy lots of text honestly, haha.

 

[Alannnnn]

Will the slave (there was game like this that got abandoned, sadly) if you end of being too nice or mess up on some stuff the slave will become more dominant and slowly but surely you become the slave? That would be an amazing concept imo.

 

[Aseratrix]

Must try game!

 

[Vizer007]

Sounds really promising, but I will wait until there at least some cunnilingus at least. Does anyone know when will that be?

 

[Noxurtica]

Will the slave (there was game like this that got abandoned, sadly) if you end of being too nice or mess up on some stuff the slave will become more dominant and slowly but surely you become the slave? That would be an amazing concept imo.

We'll consider it. Right now, it's too early to give you a clear answer.

Sounds really promising, but I will wait until there at least some cunnilingus at least. Does anyone know when will that be?

It will likely be available in the next update.