souldead341

Engaged Member
Oct 16, 2017
2,108
2,150
Ok, I get that there's strong opinions on both sides for the saves, and I haven't read through the thread to check, but from what I saw my thoughts were already stated on the allow saves side of things.

But the time limit on the card choices really needs adjustment. The first times it showed up I didn't realize that there was even a chance to affect it. I'll admit I was more focused on the reading and using keyboard to advance the text, so i had literally no time to select a button. Even with my hand on the mouse, I (with my fairly shitty reflexes) couldn't really react to the options to try and get any choice, let alone the correct choice.

Personally I'd like to see several options to the card selection speed, functioning as a difficulty setting. A fast option for hard, to give those who want it a challenge to get the right card, slower speeds for less challenge, and a story player choice for taking as much time as you like.

Yes, there are plenty of card games that are meant to test speed and reflexes, same with video games. Combining that with a story heavy choice based game is really bad in my opinion, since (while it's not realistic) I like the option to actually consider my responses in a game. Most of the games I can think of that have the fast choices or failure / worse outcome have the fast time based choices in high intensity, action sequences while you have much more time for the more considerate conversation choices, if not an unlimited amount of time.

Effectively, QTEs (which is what the card system is) don't really belong in story choices in my opinion.

I do like the basic concept of the game, and would like to play and enjoy it, but I feel like the QTE nature of the choices will kill any enjoyment I get in playing it.
 

Hmas

Member
Jun 24, 2019
160
68
Man, I've been looking for a more Adult Princess Maker like game. Is there any more like this? This one is pretty fun.

General thoughts:
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That's all though. Looking forward to updates!
 
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Apollo Seven

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 15, 2018
799
3,277
Ok, I get that there's strong opinions on both sides for the saves, and I haven't read through the thread to check, but from what I saw my thoughts were already stated on the allow saves side of things.

But the time limit on the card choices really needs adjustment. The first times it showed up I didn't realize that there was even a chance to affect it. I'll admit I was more focused on the reading and using keyboard to advance the text, so i had literally no time to select a button. Even with my hand on the mouse, I (with my fairly shitty reflexes) couldn't really react to the options to try and get any choice, let alone the correct choice.

Personally I'd like to see several options to the card selection speed, functioning as a difficulty setting. A fast option for hard, to give those who want it a challenge to get the right card, slower speeds for less challenge, and a story player choice for taking as much time as you like.

Yes, there are plenty of card games that are meant to test speed and reflexes, same with video games. Combining that with a story heavy choice based game is really bad in my opinion, since (while it's not realistic) I like the option to actually consider my responses in a game. Most of the games I can think of that have the fast choices or failure / worse outcome have the fast time based choices in high intensity, action sequences while you have much more time for the more considerate conversation choices, if not an unlimited amount of time.

Effectively, QTEs (which is what the card system is) don't really belong in story choices in my opinion.

I do like the basic concept of the game, and would like to play and enjoy it, but I feel like the QTE nature of the choices will kill any enjoyment I get in playing it.
I appreciate the feedback, but this feature you're talking about doesn't exist. You don't pick cards at all. Five are drawn and if a drawn card matches the color of the check, it passes. That's it. There are no QTEs
 
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MrDeadRat

Member
Oct 26, 2017
111
134
I appreciate the feedback, but this feature you're talking about doesn't exist. You don't pick cards at all. Five are drawn and if a drawn card matches the color of the check, it passes. That's it. There are no QTEs
Can you please point to what I should focus on to get the first 2 rows on the last page of the gallery, I made like 10 playthroughs at this point and can't understand what path I should pursue for these.
 

T51bwinterized

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Oct 17, 2017
1,456
3,479
i'm going to pop back in real quick and stop you right their and say that makes no sense, is outright wrong in several cases and is HEAVILY contradictory.
i would suggest never saying that to a game developer in the triple A industry as they would immediately punch you in the stomach.

alright, that is all, imma Ollie outie for real this time.
Here is an old video from Extra Credits discussing the usage of randomness in strategy games. I think it sums up the role of randomness in skill based games quite well, and explains the mechanism in this game.



I know a lot of folks don't like Extra Credits because of their politics, but this video is all game design and quite informative.
 

T51bwinterized

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Oct 17, 2017
1,456
3,479
Regarding the implimentation of the cards. I do actually think there is an issue and the majority of the players here are misdiagnosing it.

The problem is the meditation systems and the deck in the first place. The ability to change and shape the deck is rather symplistic, and the mechanism in play has higher RNG.

A better mechanism might be a more robust expansion of the deck building mechanic during the night times (AKA the segment the player has control over) paired with a change to the events themselves, where they draw hands 3 times, and then select based on best 2/3. This means lower probability of being screwed on something you planned for.
 

T51bwinterized

Well-Known Member
Game Developer
Oct 17, 2017
1,456
3,479
It's not that the mechanic itself of building a deck and then that deck will influence events based on the nature of the deck is bad. It's that the deck should be more complex, more under player control, and give the player more ability to sway events.
 

souldead341

Engaged Member
Oct 16, 2017
2,108
2,150
I appreciate the feedback, but this feature you're talking about doesn't exist. You don't pick cards at all. Five are drawn and if a drawn card matches the color of the check, it passes. That's it. There are no QTEs
Ok then, to me what it seemed to be, that you got 5 cards drawn and had to click one to succeed in the check. I guess I misunderstood that and didn't play it enough to realize it.

I guess the issue was that I thought I saw the correct card in some of the challenges but still failed, so I must have been misunderstanding that.
 

MrDeadRat

Member
Oct 26, 2017
111
134
Some bug reports
Depression and the 3 cards that you get(don't remember what they're called) don't seem to heal despite the game saying they're healed over time and you have to ignore some errors. If you go hard strength and offense deffense and get to the failure of will scene there is a game breaking bug that soft locks you till the end of the game, you have to go to main menu manually cause the game just says and this is all for this version but doesn't end. There seems to be a problem in general when getting rid of your advisor.
 

Power Broker

Member
Jan 9, 2018
199
501
It's always a bit frustrating when a game with potential and fresh ideas like this one gets screwed by bad mechanics that contradict the general idea of it.
I like the idea that you don't play the princess / future queen, but her confidant; that you are trying to push her in the "right" direction without having direct control over her decisions. However, the two game mechanics don't support this playstyle.

First, skillchecks: it's a very classic approach: build up your stats to become better. Half of it works (the one where you built it up), the other half doesn't (where you use these skills in challenges). The problem is that the treshold of winning a skillcheck is (in most events) dependend on the time, meaning: being able to lift an axe requires 13 strength in week 5 and 30 strength in week 15, for the same axe. This is like the (very bad) idea of leveling up enemies when the player levels up; you completely lose the sense of progress and actually weaken the char instead of improving her.

I think I know why the developer did it, but I would argue strongly against it: if you want to have some kind of progress in the development of the princess, she should improve in what she does and what she is good at. If she can lift an axe in week 5 with 13 strength, she should be able to do the same in week 15. Your mechanics, as they are now, don't support this idea of improvement.

Second, cards: a very bad mechanic as of now. There is no progress in this card game whatsoever, you keep the same deck that you built in the first few weeks. It's a static mechanic where the player can tweak the possibilities for card draws, and once you know what you want you keep the deck and hope for the best.
One of the big problems I see is that the card draws have a high impact on story line and story progression: take, as an example, the relationship between princess and brother. Whether they are on good or bad terms is dependend on one random card draw. It's not dependend on their relationship up to this point, nor on something like their general personalities or whether they like or hate each other, no: it depends on whether the princess draws yellow or not.

Once again this contradicts the basic premise of the game ("pushing the princess in the right direction") because the princess has no starting point / personality. It's random whether she like her brother or not, whether she gives asylum to refugees, whether she flashes her tits to Ulric or not; there is no element of corruption here. All you do is built up your deck in the first 5 or 6 weeks and then hope for some good rolls.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against random elements, nor against this whole approach of "roguelike text trainer novel". But in a roguelike, when I lose I know it was (mostly) my fault; I won't attack the skeleton in my next playthrough as long as I'm not level 10, lesson learned. In your game, losing is mostly not a lack of skill or bad decisions, but of poor dice rolls: your both mechanics don't contribute to the idea of progress in order to best challenges that you failed last time, they are more akin to keeping the princess' stats in balance in order to minimize the risk of losing due to bad luck.

I would suggest to think about it. What I would like to see is a game where the princess has some kind of personality which determines her decisions in a less arbitrary way than now ("Off with her head" and "You are welcome in my lands" are only one card draw apart) and where I, as her confidant, have to use my influence to push her into the direction I want. Make your game mechanics a tool of progress towards that goal.
 

Apollo Seven

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 15, 2018
799
3,277
Regarding the implimentation of the cards. I do actually think there is an issue and the majority of the players here are misdiagnosing it.

The problem is the meditation systems and the deck in the first place. The ability to change and shape the deck is rather symplistic, and the mechanism in play has higher RNG.

A better mechanism might be a more robust expansion of the deck building mechanic during the night times (AKA the segment the player has control over) paired with a change to the events themselves, where they draw hands 3 times, and then select based on best 2/3. This means lower probability of being screwed on something you planned for.
The deck building mechanic used to be a lot more complex. You had cards that boosted skills, cards that had special effects, etc. The player even picked and choose the cards to play, and the cards you didn't play stuck in your hand. So you had to plan what to keep for later, what to get rid of, etc. It was a fun system, but it didn't work in the context of the game. The more control you gain over the card system, the more it feels like you're in control of the Princess.
The current system as you see in game indeed pretty simple, but it's only the intro of the game. It has very simple cards because the game has enough complex ideas at the start without throwing you head first into complex cards too. The game is 55 weeks long and this version ends at 20, so you're just barely coming out of the intro as it currently ends.

First, skillchecks: it's a very classic approach: build up your stats to become better. Half of it works (the one where you built it up), the other half doesn't (where you use these skills in challenges). The problem is that the treshold of winning a skillcheck is (in most events) dependend on the time, meaning: being able to lift an axe requires 13 strength in week 5 and 30 strength in week 15, for the same axe. This is like the (very bad) idea of leveling up enemies when the player levels up; you completely lose the sense of progress and actually weaken the char instead of improving her.

I think I know why the developer did it, but I would argue strongly against it: if you want to have some kind of progress in the development of the princess, she should improve in what she does and what she is good at. If she can lift an axe in week 5 with 13 strength, she should be able to do the same in week 15. Your mechanics, as they are now, don't support this idea of improvement.
The checks in meetings with council members have to scale with time, because there's a variance of 12 weeks between when one could first appear and when it could last appear. If they all had static requirements, they would be impossible at the start, hard in the middle, and a breeze at the end. This would indeed give a sense of skill progression, but skills are not the things you are progressing in this game. It's the relationships with the other characters. If they were all static, which characters the Princess could build goof relationships with would be essentially randomized, the ones at the start would be impossible.

It's very true that at the end of the run the player should be able to look back at the past events and say "Wow, look how much I've grown and changed". But you're misinterpreting where that growth is. At the end of the game (the whole game, not the current version) the player isn't supposed to feel "The Princess is so much better at conversation now!", they're supposed to feel "Wow, Gales hated the Princess's guts and now they're BFFs!"

Second, cards: a very bad mechanic as of now. There is no progress in this card game whatsoever, you keep the same deck that you built in the first few weeks. It's a static mechanic where the player can tweak the possibilities for card draws, and once you know what you want you keep the deck and hope for the best.
You can in theory get 5 of each color and cause it a day, but you'd do very badly. You want to be micromanaging the deck much more closely as there are checks you'll want the Princess to fail at if you want specific outcomes. And pushing your odds up for an important decision and then taking those cards away is a pretty good strategy. Even if you do have your deck "perfect" and never want to touch it ever again, as the game goes along as there are events which add cards which change the odds. For example, the Vizier adds pink cards to the deck pretty often if the Princess isn't going along with everything he says. So if the Vizier is your trainer but you don't want his ending, you'll need to fairly constantly re-balance things to remove the pink cards for other stuff.

One of the big problems I see is that the card draws have a high impact on story line and story progression: take, as an example, the relationship between princess and brother. Whether they are on good or bad terms is dependend on one random card draw. It's not dependend on their relationship up to this point, nor on something like their general personalities or whether they like or hate each other, no: it depends on whether the princess draws yellow or not.
This I agree with, which is part of some changes coming in .31. Card checks determining major plot points is problematic. Things like which trainer you end up with are major game altering decisions that can't really be recovered from. For the most part, failing checks is something you can overcome over time or actively want for your goal, but kicking out Cecily when you want to play her route is just bad. So anything that hinges on one check like that needs to be changed. For Cecily I'm adding the same system you have with the Vizier, where you can force the Princess to change her decision at the cost of stat penalties. The other one that needs to change is the brother check early on, as that has some fairly pervasive consequences and is actually completely random.

Once again this contradicts the basic premise of the game ("pushing the princess in the right direction") because the princess has no starting point / personality. It's random whether she like her brother or not, whether she gives asylum to refugees, whether she flashes her tits to Ulric or not; there is no element of corruption here. All you do is built up your deck in the first 5 or 6 weeks and then hope for some good rolls.
First of all, I've never said this game is about corruption, like ever. Everyone thinks it is, but it's not in the blurb or anything. That stuff is there if that's what you want, but there's a lot of endings in this game that will require you not to corrupt the Princess at all. Specifically the endings where the Princess romances council members won't trigger if she's corrupted by her trainer or the player. Secondly, there's an entire mechanic that you've missed largely because it's not very important at the start. When you talk to the Princess, as well as adding a card to the deck and boosting skills of a certain color that week, you effect your relationship stats with her. That you missed this is largely bad interface design as these numbers were hidden away on the people screen. But balancing these states is very important as the game goes on because letting certain things get too high/low can have pretty bad consequences. And if you want to corrupt the Princess, get her reliance really high. To get to the PC corrupting the Princess endings (which obviously aren't in the first 20 weeks), you want to get her Reliance very high, get her Love up moderately high, and make sure none of the other trainers have corrupted her themselves.
And oh, look at that! Doing do has tension with getting better at skills and manipulating the deck because you might have to pick options that don't match the color you need right now. Wow. it's almost like I've thought about this system.
 

Apollo Seven

Active Member
Game Developer
Sep 15, 2018
799
3,277
One small note I should make clear: I am not against people coming in here and criticizing the game or it's mechanics. In fact, it's very useful regardless of how good said analysis is. Defending your decisions is an excellent way to both improve the process behind them and to discover things that could improve them. So my response to Power Brooker's comment above isn't me trying to argue with them, it's me laying out my reasoning and logic for both my own benefit and so other people can come along and point out errors I've made. I have no ill will towards any criticism of games except for one thing...

What does really irk me is when people imply that I have been negligent, haven't actually thought about these systems, or am bad at my craft. So please don't do any of that, but do poke holes in things all you want.
 

MrDeadRat

Member
Oct 26, 2017
111
134
Ok, after doing like 20 playthroughs of the game so far and reading through almost every wall of text here, I feel like I might be on to something that might be good. What I'm thinking as a possibility is introducing a little bit of a different card system, where you will have half cards as well as full cards and special cards.
The full cards are the current regular cards and they work the same, you succeed on a check that need that card if you pull it from your deck.
Half cards are cards that are made of 2 colors. They are made in such way that its logical, so for example you will not have a white/black card as a combination cause you can't be paranoid and trusting of a person of the same time but you might have a red/white card where you intend to do something aggressive but you trust the people/person you are talking to (just an example). Now these cards will perhaps be neccessary for certain checks but most of all they can be used instead of a full card in normal check, however they will not give you the full benefit of the check. For example a half yellow card might allow you to continue something with the dancer but will not you favor or something along these lines.
In addition there are special card, like the current exhibisionist. There is no difference between it and a normal lust card right now, besides the fact that it can't be removed, so I think that they could be used to improve the story telling and maybe some scenes. Let's say you are talking to the noble that princess gives a handjob to, but instead of a normal lust card you draw the exhibisionist one, so she might give him a hanjob in the hall, or undress when she does it in the bedroom or just a dialogue change, but right now it doesn't serve a purpose. And there should a similar card for every color let's say dominant for red, creative for blue and whatever else.
As far as the checks go, they would first look for a special card, then a full card and then a half card in your hand in order to know what happens. It will be really hard to implement considering the game is already structured but I think that it will alleviate some of the difficulty people currently have controlling the outcome as well as add some spice to the gameplay. Like if you want to try for a generalist you will just pump your deck full of half cards and there might be an ending where you don't die and succeed the throne but you are so mediocre that nothing happens and the ending is just you sitting on the throne drinking tea or whatever. But if you want a more specified playthrough you will have to get the most of every check you are trying to succeed in the ending will be adjusted accordingly...
 

Dom1anon

Member
Jun 21, 2018
239
521
One small note I should make clear: I am not against people coming in here and criticizing the game or it's mechanics. In fact, it's very useful regardless of how good said analysis is. Defending your decisions is an excellent way to both improve the process behind them and to discover things that could improve them. So my response to Power Brooker's comment above isn't me trying to argue with them, it's me laying out my reasoning and logic for both my own benefit and so other people can come along and point out errors I've made. I have no ill will towards any criticism of games except for one thing...

What does really irk me is when people imply that I have been negligent, haven't actually thought about these systems, or am bad at my craft. So please don't do any of that, but do poke holes in things all you want.
People seem to waste a lot of time with trying to argue about the game's (actually quite interesting) system while ignoring the most important question:

Do we get to rape and feminize the brother on the futa route?
 
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