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darthpham

Member
Apr 2, 2022
318
157
Yeah, the project management was a catastrophe. Basically, that Kuma guy simply destroyed his own studio. He had such amazing people working for him - the incredible artist (one of the best in the industry), the exceptional guy who created music for him, all those charming voice actresses... Only the script writer was quite bad.

His Patreon account made about 3800 dollars a month before he decided to abandon Milky Touch, and it was growing. Most developers cannot even dream about such a level of support.

Then suddenly he plays Cyberpunk 2077, enjoys it so much that he decides it would be nice to make his own game in a similar universe with blackjack and hookers. He abandons Milky Touch (yes, he abandoned it, it is the only way to call it). He abruptly finishes the game with 2 updates, the game that was very popular, had a lot of fans and wasn't even in the middle of the planned plot. He was told repeatedly that it was a huge mistake (including by me), but he didn't listen.

Then he started to make that stupid comic book out of his another game about Rome, that was in hiatus. No one wanted that comic. People wanted the game to be continued sooner or later. But still he paid a fortune to the artist to draw those 40 pages of pictures, more than enough to make quite a few updates.

And guess what? He wasted a year and a half to prepare for the release of Neon Touch. During that time people still paid him 1500-2000 dollars a month waiting for something great to happen. They paid him about 30 000 dollars. And what the guy does? He quickly abandons it after just two freaking updates that took him 3 months to release, because "it didn't satisfy his expectations with regard to the amount of support".
Great information, thank you. So sad to hear about Kuma as Milky Touch was a unique gem among VNs & was hoping for more. Guess you really can't predict how people handle success...so sad that it's probably the end of Studio Kuma
 

Alex13337

New Member
Aug 7, 2018
12
7
Yeah, the project management was a catastrophe. Basically, that Kuma guy simply destroyed his own studio. He had such amazing people working for him - the incredible artist (one of the best in the industry), the exceptional guy who created music for him, all those charming voice actresses... Only the script writer was quite bad.

His Patreon account made about 3800 dollars a month before he decided to abandon Milky Touch, and it was growing. Most developers cannot even dream about such a level of support.

Then suddenly he plays Cyberpunk 2077, enjoys it so much that he decides it would be nice to make his own game in a similar universe with blackjack and hookers. He abandons Milky Touch (yes, he abandoned it, it is the only way to call it). He abruptly finishes the game with 2 updates, the game that was very popular, had a lot of fans and wasn't even in the middle of the planned plot. He was told repeatedly that it was a huge mistake (including by me), but he didn't listen.

Then he started to make that stupid comic book out of his another game about Rome, that was in hiatus. No one wanted that comic. People wanted the game to be continued sooner or later. But still he paid a fortune to the artist to draw those 40 pages of pictures, more than enough to make quite a few updates.

And guess what? He wasted a year and a half to prepare for the release of Neon Touch. During that time people still paid him 1500-2000 dollars a month waiting for something great to happen. They paid him about 30 000 dollars. And what the guy does? He quickly abandons it after just two freaking updates that took him 3 months to release, because "it didn't satisfy his expectations with regard to the amount of support".
Hey, sorry to bother you after long time. But do you know on what projects is currently working the artist of MT and NT? Guy has a great talent, I would like to know which projects were so lucky to have him/her.
 

LewdLife

Member
Jan 31, 2021
224
308
Hey, sorry to bother you after long time. But do you know on what projects is currently working the artist of MT and NT? Guy has a great talent, I would like to know which projects were so lucky to have him/her.
You check his patreon, he's pretty much off grid
 

Alex13337

New Member
Aug 7, 2018
12
7
You check his patreon, he's pretty much off grid
I was asking about the art creator not the dev of the game. If it was the same person it's a pity, but as I understood it was different people. That's why I wanted to know about the artist.
 

TimeWalker

Active Member
Jul 2, 2017
725
577
Can't believe I've been working with Kuma for 4 years. Right now it feels like the vanilla Octavia ending in MT. Thanks to the studio, messaging Kuma was one of the best decisions I made in 2019; it started my VN life in dev mode. I'm glad to be involved in MT and NT. I was doing something I love for something I love, instead of pimping my passion and skill on something I don't care about. It provided a good distraction from my mundane SFW works.

The studio's shutdown is mostly because of financial reasons. I hope that someday, when graphical A.I. advances past its current chaotic phase, it will become a local A.I. that adapts to its owner's style and makes progress faster and cheaper. The cold fact is that the future is not A.I. vs Human but Human with A.I. vs Human without A.I.

I indeed hope Kuma is doing well with his family. He is welcome to bring the back the golden days when he's ready because when every asset doesn't take too long or cost too much to create, commitment will become one of the main factors for a studio to stay afloat. Seeing that Kuma kept the studio running without even breaking even for science knows how long, I think he did his best in terms of commitment.
Octavia ending left sour taste but i love it. just wish main char will see her in untold future. MT should have been great if they didn't wrap thing up and move on. it have so much potential.
 
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Simbad-sea

Newbie
May 11, 2020
95
61
I was asking about the art creator not the dev of the game. If it was the same person it's a pity, but as I understood it was different people. That's why I wanted to know about the artist.
Hello. You still don't know the name of the artist or what happened to him?
 

lostraven

Engaged Member
Donor
Game Developer
Apr 27, 2017
2,971
13,267
Hey, sorry to bother you after long time. But do you know on what projects is currently working the artist of MT and NT? Guy has a great talent, I would like to know which projects were so lucky to have him/her.
Kuma is unlikely to come back. As he told me, he's 'turning over a new page in his life.'


Yeah, the project management was a catastrophe. Basically, that Kuma guy simply destroyed his own studio. He had such amazing people working for him - the incredible artist (one of the best in the industry), the exceptional guy who created music for him, all those charming voice actresses... Only the script writer was quite bad.
Given he's not here to defend himself, I'm going to offer some defence of Kuma as his friend. While I won't go too much into the details for obvious privacy reasons, we did talk and I considered him a friend. I wouldn't normally feel comfortable about this, but as Studio Kuma has well and truly closed it's doors for good and a few months have passed, I feel it's only right I at least say something, especially as there is no one else around to defend him.

His project management was not the best, but the man was very damn passionate, and laying all the blame for the failure on him isn't exactly fair in my opinion.


His Patreon account made about 3800 dollars a month before he decided to abandon Milky Touch, and it was growing. Most developers cannot even dream about such a level of support.
All of which means nothing when you realise at no point (I believe ever), Studio Kuma once broke even. The overhead costs were astronomical, and I'm going to be blunt here, if what I was told was true regarding overhead costs, (I won't go into the specifics of that because it's too personal), half of the supposed staff involved, from a pure business standpoint... I would have fired, and told him so myself.

Kuma was always trying to look out for everyone and always trying to keep a sinking ship afloat to his own detriment for everyone elses sake.

Then suddenly he plays Cyberpunk 2077, enjoys it so much that he decides it would be nice to make his own game in a similar universe with blackjack and hookers. He abandons Milky Touch (yes, he abandoned it, it is the only way to call it). He abruptly finishes the game with 2 updates, the game that was very popular, had a lot of fans and wasn't even in the middle of the planned plot. He was told repeatedly that it was a huge mistake (including by me), but he didn't listen.

Then he started to make that stupid comic book out of his another game about Rome, that was in hiatus. No one wanted that comic. People wanted the game to be continued sooner or later. But still he paid a fortune to the artist to draw those 40 pages of pictures, more than enough to make quite a few updates.

And guess what? He wasted a year and a half to prepare for the release of Neon Touch. During that time people still paid him 1500-2000 dollars a month waiting for something great to happen. They paid him about 30 000 dollars. And what the guy does? He quickly abandons it after just two freaking updates that took him 3 months to release, because "it didn't satisfy his expectations with regard to the amount of support".
Much of these decisions came out of a desperate need to at the very least break even, Milky Touch was not financially successful despite all its years in production, it was a money sink and it's collapse was inevitable, all of these other ventures were hopeful throws of the dice to turn the ship around.

While these were wrong decisions, I believe when you put them into proper context, it's clear they weren't just his 'random whims' because he liked cyberpunk- he hoped to cash in on the cyberpunk craze to help keep things going and turn a profit.

There were many management points me and Kuma disagreed on, but as I came to understand the situation, Studio Kuma's fall came from a lack of funding (even at it's peak, it wasn't close to what was needed) and very expensive overhead costs.

It did not totally collapse because Kuma leap frogged from one thing to the next ... That was a symptom of the above issues.
 

Simbad-sea

Newbie
May 11, 2020
95
61
@lostraven
Does anyone know who the artist is? This is the first time I've come across something I can't find any trace of (yet).

So what happened? Did "half" the people work on the game, or was there poor planning? There are just VERY many games that take years to develop (milk) their audience. Some games are "in development" for 7-10 years.
 

lostraven

Engaged Member
Donor
Game Developer
Apr 27, 2017
2,971
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@lostraven
Does anyone know who the artist is? This is the first time I've come across something I can't find any trace of (yet).

So what happened? Did "half" the people work on the game, or was there poor planning? There are just VERY many games that take years to develop (milk) their audience. Some games are "in development" for 7-10 years.
I don't know the full specifics as I wasn't on the team, I only spoke to Kuma in confidence as his friend, as far as I understood the matter, everyone was *working* but the overhead costs were astronomical.

Again I don't want to go into breaking down those costs that I were told, but the 3800 a month was a drop in the bucket to what was really needed to break even, let alone be profitable.

That would have needed more like the 8K to 10K mark.

I don't want to levy the blame too much at the staffs feet, at the end of the day they are within their individual rights to charge whatever they want for their services... But they are not rates *I* would have paid.

Given the projects failed and the studio closed, it would be hard to argue there was *good* planning. But there was a logic behind the decisions made.
 

Arnav Dasari

Member
Sep 14, 2020
354
494
The biggest source of expenses was probably the voice-overs. IIRC we all discussed it in the context of Neon Touch and if I remember things right Kuma's initial plan for Neon Touch was to have just the moans instead of full voice-overs - at least for the first few updates.

What I remember is my (heretical) proposal to stop making animations, instead going for more static pictures - but the idea was to reduce the workload for the artist - not the reduce the costs.

That's being said, the full voice-overs, as well as the animations (and the music, and the art deco ui, and of course the visual style) gave Milky Touch that certain luxurious quality - not just another run-of-the-mill VN, but something truly outstanding. Milky Touch burned bright...
 

lostraven

Engaged Member
Donor
Game Developer
Apr 27, 2017
2,971
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The biggest source of expenses was probably the voice-overs. IIRC we all discussed it in the context of Neon Touch and if I remember things right Kuma's initial plan for Neon Touch was to have just the moans instead of full voice-overs - at least for the first few updates.

What I remember is my (heretical) proposal to stop making animations, instead going for more static pictures - but the idea was to reduce the workload for the artist - not the reduce the costs.

That's being said, the full voice-overs, as well as the animations (and the music, and the art deco ui, and of course the visual style) gave Milky Touch that certain luxurious quality - not just another run-of-the-mill VN, but something truly outstanding. Milky Touch burned bright...
Hiring VA's when you're not even semi-consistently breaking even isn't the ideal choice under even normal game circumstances, but there was definitely more than just whatever the VA's charged that led to the cost overheads issues.

Kuma was unwilling to compromise on anything he felt degraded the quality, which is luxury you can afford when you're in the green, or if you're the guy working on the project/ or you have low to reasonable overhead costs. None of which Studio Kuma was.

there are other methods to managing/reducing costs, such as hiring cheaper artists to handle the BGs while the more experienced expensive artist only handles sex scenes or some other department. (This system we use in my team and we call it the 'lanes' system), there's also plain ol' being able to do some of the work yourself, writing, coding, music, or even the art.
There is the option of mixing AI in, (not an option available at the time to Kuma I believe, but it is one), there's also offering % instead of direct payments/agreeing to set salaries etc etc, I could go on ... Point is, Kuma wasn't willing to compromise on what he felt was quality.

As the lead dev, the guillotine ultimately falls on your head and I do believe he *should* have compromised but ... I can't fault him for wanting to make things 100% perfect in his eyes and the failure of Studio Kuma can't be boiled down to just one thing.
 

ShiShi!

Member
Nov 28, 2017
499
620
Kuma is unlikely to come back. As he told me, he's 'turning over a new page in his life.'

Given he's not here to defend himself, I'm going to offer some defence of Kuma as his friend. While I won't go too much into the details for obvious privacy reasons, we did talk and I considered him a friend. I wouldn't normally feel comfortable about this, but as Studio Kuma has well and truly closed it's doors for good and a few months have passed, I feel it's only right I at least say something, especially as there is no one else around to defend him.

His project management was not the best, but the man was very damn passionate, and laying all the blame for the failure on him isn't exactly fair in my opinion.
I was told the reason why MT isn't on Steam was because of the ambiguous setting of an 'academy'. If this is true, why didn't he change the settings to university or something and starts selling it on Steam to recoup?
 

lostraven

Engaged Member
Donor
Game Developer
Apr 27, 2017
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I was told the reason why MT isn't on Steam was because of the ambiguous setting of an 'academy'. If this is true, why didn't he change the settings to university or something and starts selling it on Steam to recoup?
1.) Steam doesn't just accept an obvious rebrand. Steam *will* play your game and if it's obviously just a school you're calling a college/university, they will fail you. It needs to be *clearly* a university.

2.) Kuma's profile is literally a gravestone, (no, really)
1708473617102.png
There's no one left to ask for clarity on what exactly happened there.
 
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ShiShi!

Member
Nov 28, 2017
499
620
1.) Steam doesn't just accept an obvious rebrand. Steam *will* play your game and if it's obviously just a school you're calling a college/university, they will fail you. It needs to be *clearly* a university.

2.) Kuma's profile is literally a gravestone, (no, really)
View attachment 3372862
There's no one left to ask for clarity on what exactly happened there.
Hmm there wasn't much content in the game that could have suggested it was not a college/university iirc. I didn't even notice it was called an academy until much later when I played.

It could have definitely been a good success on Steam though based on the quality so that's too bad.
 

Simbad-sea

Newbie
May 11, 2020
95
61
Hmm there wasn't much content in the game that could have suggested it was not a college/university iirc. I didn't even notice it was called an academy until much later when I played.

It could have definitely been a good success on Steam though based on the quality so that's too bad.
I don't know why they say that, but I can name a few games that have a literal school. Like Bunny. There's school and kid erotica in there and nothing. Steam is cool with that. :HideThePain:
 

NewSeal

Member
Jan 9, 2024
133
369
Kuma is unlikely to come back. As he told me, he's 'turning over a new page in his life.'




Given he's not here to defend himself, I'm going to offer some defence of Kuma as his friend. While I won't go too much into the details for obvious privacy reasons, we did talk and I considered him a friend. I wouldn't normally feel comfortable about this, but as Studio Kuma has well and truly closed it's doors for good and a few months have passed, I feel it's only right I at least say something, especially as there is no one else around to defend him.

His project management was not the best, but the man was very damn passionate, and laying all the blame for the failure on him isn't exactly fair in my opinion.




All of which means nothing when you realise at no point (I believe ever), Studio Kuma once broke even. The overhead costs were astronomical, and I'm going to be blunt here, if what I was told was true regarding overhead costs, (I won't go into the specifics of that because it's too personal), half of the supposed staff involved, from a pure business standpoint... I would have fired, and told him so myself.

Kuma was always trying to look out for everyone and always trying to keep a sinking ship afloat to his own detriment for everyone elses sake.



Much of these decisions came out of a desperate need to at the very least break even, Milky Touch was not financially successful despite all its years in production, it was a money sink and it's collapse was inevitable, all of these other ventures were hopeful throws of the dice to turn the ship around.

While these were wrong decisions, I believe when you put them into proper context, it's clear they weren't just his 'random whims' because he liked cyberpunk- he hoped to cash in on the cyberpunk craze to help keep things going and turn a profit.

There were many management points me and Kuma disagreed on, but as I came to understand the situation, Studio Kuma's fall came from a lack of funding (even at it's peak, it wasn't close to what was needed) and very expensive overhead costs.

It did not totally collapse because Kuma leap frogged from one thing to the next ... That was a symptom of the above issues.
Ok knowing about the somewhat full context for all of this now just makes the whole thing even sadder tbh.
 
1.80 star(s) 4 Votes