Not a dig at you in any way, but you seem to have forgotten the importance of programming, and trust me, there's a lot of it. Even with Unity's visual scripting you still need a little knowledge of either C++ or C# if you want continuity through out. If the game is written in an earlier version it's not always that simple to port it to the new version that has Bolt included (Bolt is the visual scripting).
Programming takes time, thought and effort and luckily, for us, this duo do a grand job, very rare to find game breaking bugs in their game, the polish is almost perfect.
Awwww thank you! That made my day!
Just adding that we do program in Csharp. We both come from engineering/programming backgrounds and it's easier for us to do it via script than the new visual programming. It's also quite new for Unity (tho im pretty sure they mustve followed the one for UDK to the tee) so I myself will hold on to it until I feel confident to use it in a professional environtment.
Awwww thank you! That made my day!
Just adding that we do program in Csharp. We both come from engineering/programming backgrounds and it's easier for us to do it via script than the new visual programming. It's also quite new for Unity (tho im pretty sure they mustve followed the one for UDK to the tee) so I myself will hold on to it until I feel confident to use it in a professional environtment.
I'm more of a C++ man, or at least that's what my degree says, I've played with and tested Bolt and it is a clone but it's getting better with each update still, nothing beats getting your hands dirty in the mucky world that is 'C'.
Staying focused was always a bit of a problem for me, staring a code all day untill it all merges into one was never fun for me.
Keep up the great work.
I didn't really like the last arc, I found it very romantic for a betrayal and the images didn't show everything, it was more sexy poses and less pussy and ass, the best for me was the poker arc by far, it had more of a ntr face, but the gameplay has improved a lot. I wanted there to be more scenes of the service, when the protagonist falls and shows her panties to the client, wanted more bold scenes, also wanted more random scenes from ntr, like she going to the beach with her husband and being harassed without her husband seeing or in the metro being touched and more spicy scenes of the day to relax
And what exactly are you guys doing? I mean I know you have to write a story, and you obv created the models for charaters as I have not seen any other that look like any of the characters. I know that there is rendering(which apparently takes a lot of time) But what else is there to it?
Hey there. Sorry for the late reply, got caught up in a few busy days when last we spoke and this slipped through the cracks. Anyways.
I take it you are asking what it is we do month to month on a release? Well the answer is a lot, and we actually work in a 2 month cycle in parallel with our other game.
I won't do a full list for briefness sake but every month we've got to do:
- Writing, rewriting and editing
- Pre-production on models, environments, clothing, lightning and effects (like the oils in this coming versions)
- Rendering (each image can take several hours, hence it is a big eater of time)
- Post production and photoshopping on images
- Engine building and coding
- Feature Testing, New Content Testing and Gameplay Testing (I personally play each version 2-3 times in full to balance test)
That's just the simple overview, each task is a bunch of smaller tasks that need doing each month, and we're leaving off several other minute things (also I didn't go deep on Art since that's a whole job itself and Unshi knows better). Plus we've got personal life stuff to do each month too, so you can see why it makes for a very busy, tightly packed month-to-month schedule, huh?
Making sexy is by no means easy, it's a job in itself, but it's the one we want to do. It's also fun.
I didn't really like the last arc, I found it very romantic for a betrayal and the images didn't show everything, it was more sexy poses and less pussy and ass, the best for me was the poker arc by far, it had more of a ntr face, but the gameplay has improved a lot. I wanted there to be more scenes of the service, when the protagonist falls and shows her panties to the client, wanted more bold scenes, also wanted more random scenes from ntr, like she going to the beach with her husband and being harassed without her husband seeing or in the metro being touched and more spicy scenes of the day to relax
Hey there, cheers for the feedback. No offense taken, happy to hear peoples constructive thoughts but I'm known to want to chat things out and have a bit of a discussion, so here's we go.
Too bad you didn't like the Damon arc, I can see why it's not for everyone, but some people do. It was more Romantic than the Beck one sure, but it was tied to the Romance stat so I think that's a fair thing to expect. If you didn't like Damon's, you might not like Asana's either, although if you are looking for ntr fetishy scenes you may find something to like in Asana's still. Each arc takes on different themes and different angles on fetishes after all. Either way, when we get back to the Beck arc, you'll probably fine more of what you like if you enjoyed the early Beck stuff, and we have some other arcs yet to come too which are more in that vein potential.
Basically what I'm getting at is this: Glad you like some of the game, sorry you don't like it all, but we've got plenty to go yet. Hopefully I can make more enjoyable stuff ahead.
As for the gameplay, also cheers for the heads up. We've only got small amounts of CGs each version (if any sometimes) to help advance that side of things but I'm happy to see it's coming together piece by piece. Going to keep our eye on it and not let that side of the game get lost in the shuffle. There's still plenty of space to include nice things like flirting, touching and sexy in the outcomes (we're only up to Lv3's in the mix after all), but before we get ahead of ourselves we've still got a lot of open slots to fill so we're pushing on there too. Keep an eye out for nice things though.
On a personal note: I see you mentioned a hope for some random things happening in game (like beach strangers etc), and I'd say not to get the hopes up too much on that side of things, for a few reasons. One being that it personally doesn't appeal much to me as the lead developer. Flirting, touching and sexy in the restaurant with customers as I said above is all well and enjoyable, but random scenes with throwaway people just isn't my kind of thing (also aside from Beck and Sal, harassment and semi-rapy stuff isn't my thing either)... Especially in a story where Noe is still mostly (as of now) planning on marrying Brad who she still does have feelings for. Those kinds of scenes are much better suited for our other games like Agent of Heels.
Another reason not to expect much like that for Noe (other girls may differ) is that we simply don't have the time for much like that. Originally the game engine was built to handle Misc scenes outside of a set arc, but we're only about 20% of the way through the game so far with a lot more to do, and with no clear way ahead to increase our pace right now we can't be throwing in random stuff, not if we want to avoid cutting stuff like Roy out to shorten the rest of the game and make room (which we don't want to do).
Anyway, I just thought that was worth a say, I'd be more on the look out for that kind of content from beWilder games led by Unshi (he's better at those kinds of set ups). All in all I think you'll have plenty to enjoy with Noemi, all we need is time and support.
Alright all, back to work for me. Hope y'all are enjoying your December. It's so damn cold here my hands and numb, but I've got sexy to make so I'mma do it now. Cheers all.
I've been wondering about Sal. What's the characters role going forward? Is he supposed to continue just basically being Wile E Coyote? I mean so far it's been Sal has a plan, Noe foils plan, and then back to restaurant management where once you've got him down he never really recovers.
Are there plans for a Sal arc with Noe? I ask cause for the longest he's really been just a prick with a name.
I've been wondering about Sal. What's the characters role going forward? Is he supposed to continue just basically being Wile E Coyote? I mean so far it's been Sal has a plan, Noe foils plan, and then back to restaurant management where once you've got him down he never really recovers.
Are there plans for a Sal arc with Noe? I ask cause for the longest he's really been just a prick with a name.
His role is antagonist still, yes. So far Noe's gotten one up on him and then he's hit her with a low blow, forcing her to pull in the likes of Kelsey. That's as far as we've gotten there. It's not a tale of "Woman runs business well for years, is beaten by man and raped in a week after battling" though, so that's got to be kept in mind. Noe can actually beat him at times. She's got talents and advantages he doesn't, and not just her body.
Is what you're getting at that he should be more formidable an opponent in the gameplay sections? If so, I quite agree, but you'll see on here pages of this thread where people think it was all too hard before, and until we have more of the gameplay sections filled out (like more traps on all tasks, and more Promo outcomes for all girls), making too big of an over-correction move on his difficulty is something we want to avoid.
Of course he has an arc of his own too, it's just not been expanded much since Noe doesn't go spending her Saturdays with Sal palling around. As another person on here described him, he's a bit of a "late game" content character, so he needs some build up of his own, and so other character got in ahead of him since they expand more of the game when we need it. If you scroll back a page or few you'll see we've noted a couple of times that getting more of him in the game (both in his own arc and the main story) as a big part of our top goals ahead of us. Soon enough he'll have a few more appearance and how his role shapes up should be more obvious. He'll still be a prick though, that's for sure.
His role is antagonist still, yes. So far Noe's gotten one up on him and then he's hit her with a low blow, forcing her to pull in the likes of Kelsey. That's as far as we've gotten there. It's not a tale of "Woman runs business well for years, is beaten by man and raped in a week after battling" though, so that's got to be kept in mind. Noe can actually beat him at times. She's got talents and advantages he doesn't, and not just her body.
Is what you're getting at that he should be more formidable an opponent in the gameplay sections? If so, I quite agree, but you'll see on here pages of this thread where people think it was all too hard before, and until we have more of the gameplay sections filled out (like more traps on all tasks, and more Promo outcomes for all girls), making too big of an over-correction move on his difficulty is something we want to avoid.
Of course he has an arc of his own too, it's just not been expanded much since Noe doesn't go spending her Saturdays with Sal palling around. As another person on here described him, he's a bit of a "late game" content character, so he needs some build up of his own, and so other character got in ahead of him since they expand more of the game when we need it. If you scroll back a page or few you'll see we've noted a couple of times that getting more of him in the game (both in his own arc and the main story) as a big part of our top goals ahead of us. Soon enough he'll have a few more appearance and how his role shapes up should be more obvious. He'll still be a prick though, that's for sure.
Okay, so the bold part wasn't what I was asking for you to do, or wondering if that was something you were gonna do. I'm mainly asking as Noe has had the upper hand whenever Sal has tried something. A few examples being the office deal, the cookout, when the two waitresses do that cum thing on Noe's leg, etc. Right now your villain can't stand toe to toe with the hero...at all. So I wanted to get an idea as to where he was supposed to go as a character or if he was to be fazed out for a bigger baddie down the line that would be the real antagonist.
Currently every plan or action I can think of that Sal took has almost immediately resulted in it getting turned around on him (like Wile E Coyote). And thus he doesn't feel like an actual threat, and comes off more annoying then anything.
Also I get characters will need to be built up, which is the primary reason I've asked about Sal at all since he hasn't been. But when I see something like "late game" thrown around, that makes me think when the game is nearly done. For the main bad guy that worries me, especially if you're trying to say he won't have any real character until the games nearly done.
Okay, so the bold part wasn't what I was asking for you to do, or wondering if that was something you were gonna do. I'm mainly asking as Noe has had the upper hand whenever Sal has tried something. A few examples being the office deal, the cookout, when the two waitresses do that cum thing on Noe's leg, etc. Right now your villain can't stand toe to toe with the hero...at all. So I wanted to get an idea as to where he was supposed to go as a character or if he was to be fazed out for a bigger baddie down the line that would be the real antagonist.
Currently every plan or action I can think of that Sal took has almost immediately resulted in it getting turned around on him (like Wile E Coyote). And thus he doesn't feel like an actual threat, and comes off more annoying then anything.
Also I get characters will need to be built up, which is the primary reason I've asked about Sal at all since he hasn't been. But when I see something like "late game" thrown around, that makes me think when the game is nearly done. For the main bad guy that worries me, especially if you're trying to say he won't have any real character until the games nearly done.
No, it seems it wasn't. That part in bold was more of a statement for others around here who are watching along since it's a point that comes up in feedback (and "feedback") we get a fair bit, but it's not quite what you were getting at. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, so my bad. You may be surprised by the amount of people who reach out to say things like "Why is Naomi even fighting back, it's a waste of time" with the name misspelled, or moreso "Why am I even playing at running a restaurant when I want her to fail and be fucked?", completely missing the point it's the constantly just out of reach victory and the pressure of it that is corrupting. Anyway... Not what you were getting at, so again, my bad, probably not the time for that discussion.
As for the day to day traps that Sal launches, those are counterable, and that's because it's a function of the gameplay more than the narrative. I admit there is a flaw in the way this works sometimes, in that it can lead to a cycle that as Sal gets more despairate, he attempts more traps and Noe can counter them more often. This is an area of the game we could benefit from having a deeper discussion around for sure. At the moment though, since the player has little control over when traps occur, I am currently of the opinion making the player play defensive with no chance of a bonus (as comes with a successful trap counter) isn't fair either. As I say, a deeper chat could be warranted to do better here.
Yes, I think the ultimate and simplest point of all is that Sal hasn't made enough of an appearance to be built up yet and it's still something we have to do. That seems to be the root of things and we agree. As for the "late game" aspect, I also think we're on the same page, I have unartfully used the term in the wrong context. Sal will of course play his part in the Main Story, he is the antagonist after all, and the direction the Main Story takes will come down to what effects Noe's (and the player's) back and forth with him will have. He's not going to be behind the curtain doing little to nothing until the 10 minutes of the movie.
However, when I say he's "late game" (a term used by another player around here) what I mean is for people not to expect him to be balls deep in Noe the way Damon (et all) have been in their own arcs. Sal is on a different tier of consequence to Beck/Damon etc. There is more to be done, and more back and forth to be enjoyed, before Noe fucks the guy she hates most in the world (and if your choices lead to that). Sal's arc will bring Noe into close quarters with Sal more than the Main Story, which is why it's his arc, but it's not like they will be dating like Damon got to by Scene 4 in the line. I think the simplest way explain this will be simply to let it be shown when it comes. How's that sound?
*Sigh* Alright. Now I feel a little like I'm rambling. Time to get back to the job eh? Hope that was more helpful and illuminating.
No, it seems it wasn't. That part in bold was more of a statement for others around here who are watching along since it's a point that comes up in feedback (and "feedback") we get a fair bit, but it's not quite what you were getting at. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, so my bad. You may be surprised by the amount of people who reach out to say things like "Why is Naomi even fighting back, it's a waste of time" with the name misspelled, or moreso "Why am I even playing at running a restaurant when I want her to fail and be fucked?", completely missing the point it's the constantly just out of reach victory and the pressure of it that is corrupting. Anyway... Not what you were getting at, so again, my bad, probably not the time for that discussion.
As for the day to day traps that Sal launches, those are counterable, and that's because it's a function of the gameplay more than the narrative. I admit there is a flaw in the way this works sometimes, in that it can lead to a cycle that as Sal gets more despairate, he attempts more traps and Noe can counter them more often. This is an area of the game we could benefit from having a deeper discussion around for sure. At the moment though, since the player has little control over when traps occur, I am currently of the opinion making the player play defensive with no chance of a bonus (as comes with a successful trap counter) isn't fair either. As I say, a deeper chat could be warranted to do better here.
Yes, I think the ultimate and simplest point of all is that Sal hasn't made enough of an appearance to be built up yet and it's still something we have to do. That seems to be the root of things and we agree. As for the "late game" aspect, I also think we're on the same page, I have unartfully used the term in the wrong context. Sal will of course play his part in the Main Story, he is the antagonist after all, and the direction the Main Story takes will come down to what effects Noe's (and the player's) back and forth with him will have. He's not going to be behind the curtain doing little to nothing until the 10 minutes of the movie.
However, when I say he's "late game" (a term used by another player around here) what I mean is for people not to expect him to be balls deep in Noe the way Damon (et all) have been in their own arcs. Sal is on a different tier of consequence to Beck/Damon etc. There is more to be done, and more back and forth to be enjoyed, before Noe fucks the guy she hates most in the world (and if your choices lead to that). Sal's arc will bring Noe into close quarters with Sal more than the Main Story, which is why it's his arc, but it's not like they will be dating like Damon got to by Scene 4 in the line. I think the simplest way explain this will be simply to let it be shown when it comes. How's that sound?
*Sigh* Alright. Now I feel a little like I'm rambling. Time to get back to the job eh? Hope that was more helpful and illuminating.
So concerning the gameplay portion and integrating a more threatening enemy. Yeah, I think it would be nice to help flesh out the type of scumbag Sal can be. But I'm not really pushing for your team to steamroll changes on that end. I've seen the changes since the old management game, so I know from previous discussions in this thread your group is walking a tight rope with gameplay and difficulty. So changes to that can be save for a different conversation.
But your last two paragraphs are the things I wanted to confirm. Honestly outside of the things in the spoiler tag, I do agree with you on most of the things you've said. And with what you did provide on where Sal's arc will be heading, it's definitely helpful to understand how he'll fit in the story further down the road.
Apologies for the coming wall of text. I've tried to be constructive with my criticism, but I'm not sure how effective it will be at this stage of development.
One hang-up that I have is the development of this game just doesn't seem to be going anywhere, but just spinning in it's place. The game has been in development for 2.5 years, or 1.25 if you want to be generous with the split dev cycle, and we've barely seen any of "the good stuff" with the antagonist.
I understand the Beck, Damon and Asana stuff are there to give a little bit of everything to everyone, but there hasn't been any watershed breakthrough/moment of progress regarding the plot. There is already content for Brad, the 3 alternate love (more fitting for some characters than others) interests and the 3 employees, with likely more to come for Roy and likely even the old waitresses at Sal's. All of these characters will need/get more content, so it just feels like too much has been stuffed in the turkey already. What worries me is the description of content as "arcs" feels like each individual character will have their own game, in effect, as none of the content seems to overlap. To me, this just screams bloat and will blow out the development of this game for years.
I suppose to summarise, Noe's antagonst is set up in the first chapter, but there's been so little development in their relationship that there doesn't seem to be anything to get excited for. Who's to say that there isn't another content bottleneck coming next build?
-break-
On a personal preference level (which I admit is the weaker argument) Damon and Asana do absolutely nothing for me. I "understood" that the reason for Beck's introduction was to corrupt Noe by showing her that she can use her 'feminine charms' to get a leg up on the competition (pun not intended) which can seamlessly be wrapped into her competition with Sal i.e. learning how to fight dirty.
With Damon and Asana, I don't understand their narrative purpose at all. Asana seems to literally be an ascended extra with a characterization of "lesbian sex, but exotic because she's brown" and added in post-hoc after the game was well underway. One or two scenes with a sexy yoga instructor is fine. Devoting months to develop an entire arc for her is ridiculous. I can't help but feel like her entire character could have been merged with one of Noe's crew, which would have cut down on development time significantly.
Where I can appreciate Asana is there to tick a box and may or may not have gotten out of hand, Damon just confuses me. The game is literally called NTR. You've established the down on her luck but determined protagonist, the loving but oblivious/exhausted partner and the unscrupulous antagonist who loves women almost as much as winning. You've got the foundation for a good ntr game right there. The plot practically writes itself, right? I know I was immediately attracted to the premise, and was a Patron for months. Cue Damon: the sweet young guy that our heroine falls in love with. He is an escape from the stress and pain that is her day to day life, but is able to use him and an anchor of strength to power through her daily troubles... It feels like the plot to a game in and of itself. To me, the Damon character and arc doesn't add anything to the greater plot and reads more like the plot off a Hollywood Rom-Com. This maybe could have worked as a stand alone game, but in the context of an "arc" in a game called NTR, doesn't mesh at all.
-break-
I've been meaning to type something like this up for a while. I understand that there has been plenty of changes under the hood and that the main plot has developed (slowly) since the Damon1 release. I truly want to like this game and see it succeed, but I can't help but feel like months of development have been misused on an overused NPC and an unrelated game.
So concerning the gameplay portion and integrating a more threatening enemy. Yeah, I think it would be nice to help flesh out the type of scumbag Sal can be. But I'm not really pushing for your team to steamroll changes on that end. I've seen the changes since the old management game, so I know from previous discussions in this thread your group is walking a tight rope with gameplay and difficulty. So changes to that can be save for a different conversation.
But your last two paragraphs are the things I wanted to confirm. Honestly outside of the things in the spoiler tag, I do agree with you on most of the things you've said. And with what you did provide on where Sal's arc will be heading, it's definitely helpful to understand how he'll fit in the story further down the road.
I'm glad my little ramble above ended up getting you the general answers you were looking for then. That's good. Simply put, yes, Sal has more of a mark to put on the game, both in a war with Noe and in personal endevours.
I don't want to get into a whole cycle of talking past each other, so I won't go into too much depth again on what we've already said in the spoliers (we'll simply agree to disagree on some takeaways if we must). However, I do think it's worth noting that Noe should be expected to have the advantage in some respects, particularly in the early game. She has the benefit of better food, caring for her customers (may also be a liability admittedly), skill (her own and her girls), and expertise. Sal mainly has money and cruelty, which are powerful but also not a diverse playbook. Much more sledgehammer than scalple. He's gotten where he is like a corporate raider, picking apart weaker people/businesses that can't fight back and making them apart of his own business. Hell, he doesn't even know the difference between a lot of foods (wine, he knows though). Now faced with a real fight, it's going to take a few bops on the nose before he gets his lumbering machine to be as creative as Noemi has to be in order to survive, and to take her as seriously as he needs to as well.
By all means though, it's helpful to have how he is presented to the outside described to me as you have, so I do encourage and appreciate the highlighting so I know to kick him up a step when it needs to be done. We don't want him so easy to dismiss throughout. Thanks for that, sometimes it is hard to see characters the way you all do.
---
The gameplay is somewhere I do think an open dialogue/discussion is warranted though, as I said. Perhaps you can help there. I for one separate the story from the gameplay in part, in regards to how many times Sal gets beat by Noemi at least, because it's also a mechanical process to handle, not just a narrative. Here's the situation as it is now:
In the gameplay, the more you hurt Sal's rep, the more he interferes with you as he needs to cut you down some. The lower his rep, the higher chance of a trap. On a day a task is trapped, you can't untrap it, so your only option is to get hit by it, defend it or avoid it (for non-Waitress task). Simple enough.
My problem is that because it is outside the player's control whether a job is trapped, forcing them to avoid it or defend against it with no counter bonus means they can repeatedly be backed into a corner with no way to press forward with the goal at hand, unless she purposely drops her own rep to get him to back off. That's why Noe gets a bonus for a successful defense (not defending means a loss, avoiding means nothing happens and no bonus granted by that task), so as not to get stuck behind the 8 ball with no say in the matter. With no bonus, you can be forced to take a weaker move than a normal day with no other option than to get caught in the trap, a problem that adds up when it happens every other day. Admittedly, that would be a more realistic situation for Noe given the narrative of the game (with Sal being more effective an opponent), but gameplay wise it's a bit like solitaire, where you can play and play but there might not be a way to win even if you make good moves, you see?
However, the current situation also gives the problem that by Noe defending traps so well, Sal has to trap more because he keeps getting weaker in Rep, and so she has to defend more, and a vicious cycle starts where Noe just smacks Sal down all the time. Not brilliant gameplay wise, not really the narrative we want either (Sal winning sometimes, he might win over all too), but it is the better of the two options I've explained here in my opinion... in that paying attention to the game means you win each day a lot more. You have agency and your actions bring about the situation.
So I ask you all, what would you do in my position to improve the gameplay loop here? What change would make it so it's more of a battle between Noe and Sal, but not putting the playing in a no-win day situation? At the moment my view is to weaken the counter bonus to a very small amount so you get something, and the cycle is slowed, but that's not a perfect solution either. I'm open to suggests that don't require expanding our gameplay art requirement, so please, pitch in if any of you have some thoughts on the matter. Cheers.
Apologies for the coming wall of text. I've tried to be constructive with my criticism, but I'm not sure how effective it will be at this stage of development.
One hang-up that I have is the development of this game just doesn't seem to be going anywhere, but just spinning in it's place. The game has been in development for 2.5 years, or 1.25 if you want to be generous with the split dev cycle, and we've barely seen any of "the good stuff" with the antagonist.
I understand the Beck, Damon and Asana stuff are there to give a little bit of everything to everyone, but there hasn't been any watershed breakthrough/moment of progress regarding the plot. There is already content for Brad, the 3 alternate love (more fitting for some characters than others) interests and the 3 employees, with likely more to come for Roy and likely even the old waitresses at Sal's. All of these characters will need/get more content, so it just feels like too much has been stuffed in the turkey already. What worries me is the description of content as "arcs" feels like each individual character will have their own game, in effect, as none of the content seems to overlap. To me, this just screams bloat and will blow out the development of this game for years.
I suppose to summarise, Noe's antagonst is set up in the first chapter, but there's been so little development in their relationship that there doesn't seem to be anything to get excited for. Who's to say that there isn't another content bottleneck coming next build?
-break-
On a personal preference level (which I admit is the weaker argument) Damon and Asana do absolutely nothing for me. I "understood" that the reason for Beck's introduction was to corrupt Noe by showing her that she can use her 'feminine charms' to get a leg up on the competition (pun not intended) which can seamlessly be wrapped into her competition with Sal i.e. learning how to fight dirty.
With Damon and Asana, I don't understand their narrative purpose at all. Asana seems to literally be an ascended extra with a characterization of "lesbian sex, but exotic because she's brown" and added in post-hoc after the game was well underway. One or two scenes with a sexy yoga instructor is fine. Devoting months to develop an entire arc for her is ridiculous. I can't help but feel like her entire character could have been merged with one of Noe's crew, which would have cut down on development time significantly.
Where I can appreciate Asana is there to tick a box and may or may not have gotten out of hand, Damon just confuses me. The game is literally called NTR. You've established the down on her luck but determined protagonist, the loving but oblivious/exhausted partner and the unscrupulous antagonist who loves women almost as much as winning. You've got the foundation for a good ntr game right there. The plot practically writes itself, right? I know I was immediately attracted to the premise, and was a Patron for months. Cue Damon: the sweet young guy that our heroine falls in love with. He is an escape from the stress and pain that is her day to day life, but is able to use him and an anchor of strength to power through her daily troubles... It feels like the plot to a game in and of itself. To me, the Damon character and arc doesn't add anything to the greater plot and reads more like the plot off a Hollywood Rom-Com. This maybe could have worked as a stand alone game, but in the context of an "arc" in a game called NTR, doesn't mesh at all.
-break-
I've been meaning to type something like this up for a while. I understand that there has been plenty of changes under the hood and that the main plot has developed (slowly) since the Damon1 release. I truly want to like this game and see it succeed, but I can't help but feel like months of development have been misused on an overused NPC and an unrelated game.
Fear not posting a wall of text my friend, I'm guilty of doing the same plenty, and it's really how discussions get done in the end. I appreciate the time and effort taken to give feedback, and the passion for the game too. Now, to the actual discussion.
Firstly, I'm going to touch on the middle paragraph/section because it's the simplest to respond to. There are some fair points in there and it's somethings for me to take away and to think on. I do disagree with some characterizations, such as Asana's role in the game to be a girl, be brown, and to have sex (paraphrasing). My goal with her (and with the other characters on her level) are to tackle themes and story threads with Noe that I want to see made and that I think add to the game, that don't work well (or can't be) tacked on to just the restaurant aspect of the game and the characters there, which admitted is the main side. I think the best way explain this is to simply show you though, so lets wait on digger deeper here until we've made some progress with her specific story.
However, I do acknowledge your point that they may be big enough themes they could have been other games in of themselves. The scope of this game is very large, and like all games its larger than I expected it would be in the beginning (even if I thought I knew better then, like we all do). Perhaps it's too large, maybe, but we're not yet at the point we are ready to cut down on elements, that's a discussion to keep in mind, but not seriously consider just yet. I would like to think that when things all come together, these character arcs (I call them "arcs" because "path" and other terms connote mutual exclusivity, that's all) will help add naturally to the overall feel to the game like Beck's does, but honestly, I can't say for sure they will. To me they do, but to the player's outside experience I can only go by what people's feedback tells me and your post says I should look more at that. Before this game I wasn't a writer/story designer, so I still have to grow into the skills, and be open to the feedback, so thank you. Perhaps an aside on how to make the Damon content feel like it fits better is in order. Asana/Roy etc haven't been release yet so well see, Beck sounds like it's less of a problem but it too can be discussed if we like. I do appriciate the outside view and help in that regard.
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To some of the other points, I think a lot of what is at issue comes as symtoms of one underlying problem, and that is one we are trying to fix with little success so far, but we must keep trying. Simply put, the scope of the game is pretty large (not a problem itself), but our pace is slower than we'd like to make natural feeling progress, and slower than expected that we'd have at this point in development. I would love it if we had x2 the art per version and hence x2 the scenes (well, probably more like x1.5, with less text per image), but the ability to upscale our production just hasn't panned out, and admittedly I can't write x2s as much either. With more content per version, progress speeds up as multiple arcs move forward faster, and we're not caught between chasing the sooner sex scenes / secondary content sections, and holding the progress of more thematic arcs.
To that point, I wonder if the idea of time on Damon/Beck/Asana would be half as troublesome to some if we were able to do up to twice the content per version, and so Damon's progress so far would only have been 1-1.5 versions worth of an aside, instead of 3? Or if they came with other more thematic (Main Story, Brad or Sal) arcs of the game being advanced at at the same time? I would expect they wouldn't be, and that the pace is an amplifier of the issue. Unfortunately we can't wave a magic wand and increase content production speed, but perhaps we can be better at managing what each version can deliver on for both ends of the game.
This is why in the coming versions, after we lay out a full Asana version to get that moving, we have said we're looking to split the focus of the next updates across hers and another arc, with the aims of tackling more of those Top Priorities we set (as we have said a page or two back). That would mean a chance to get some more Sal or Main Story in sooner than waiting to pull Asana up to the same depth as Beck/Damon.
How does that sound as a solution going forward? What other solutions would you yourselves suggest as players, short of completely overhauling the game in progress?
In the end, I do believe the game will have a better proportion of the main themes to the lesser NPC stories, something that is harder to see in these early days because we're building by patchwork, but then again that might be my inexperience talking so please do help me make it so that I can deliver better.
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I'm going to stop now, as I'm getting brain fog on what I'm getting at, so it seems like a point to slow down, breathe, and internalize.
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Alrighty, another big long post from me. Enjoy! I'm off to go think over some things and get more release work done. I'll surely see y'all around for more some day soon.
I'm glad my little ramble above ended up getting you the general answers you were looking for then. That's good. Simply put, yes, Sal has more of a mark to put on the game, both in a war with Noe and in personal endevours.
I don't want to get into a whole cycle of talking past each other, so I won't go into too much depth again on what we've already said in the spoliers (we'll simply agree to disagree on some takeaways if we must). However, I do think it's worth noting that Noe should be expected to have the advantage in some respects, particularly in the early game. She has the benefit of better food, caring for her customers (may also be a liability admittedly), skill (her own and her girls), and expertise. Sal mainly has money and cruelty, which are powerful but also not a diverse playbook. Much more sledgehammer than scalple. He's gotten where he is like a corporate raider, picking apart weaker people/businesses that can't fight back and making them apart of his own business. Hell, he doesn't even know the difference between a lot of foods (wine, he knows though). Now faced with a real fight, it's going to take a few bops on the nose before he gets his lumbering machine to be as creative as Noemi has to be in order to survive, and to take her as seriously as he needs to as well.
By all means though, it's helpful to have how he is presented to the outside described to me as you have, so I do encourage and appreciate the highlighting so I know to kick him up a step when it needs to be done. We don't want him so easy to dismiss throughout. Thanks for that, sometimes it is hard to see characters the way you all do.
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The gameplay is somewhere I do think an open dialogue/discussion is warranted though, as I said. Perhaps you can help there. I for one separate the story from the gameplay in part, in regards to how many times Sal gets beat by Noemi at least, because it's also a mechanical process to handle, not just a narrative. Here's the situation as it is now:
In the gameplay, the more you hurt Sal's rep, the more he interferes with you as he needs to cut you down some. The lower his rep, the higher chance of a trap. On a day a task is trapped, you can't untrap it, so your only option is to get hit by it, defend it or avoid it (for non-Waitress task). Simple enough.
My problem is that because it is outside the player's control whether a job is trapped, forcing them to avoid it or defend against it with no counter bonus means they can repeatedly be backed into a corner with no way to press forward with the goal at hand, unless she purposely drops her own rep to get him to back off. That's why Noe gets a bonus for a successful defense (not defending means a loss, avoiding means nothing happens and no bonus granted by that task), so as not to get stuck behind the 8 ball with no say in the matter. With no bonus, you can be forced to take a weaker move than a normal day with no other option than to get caught in the trap, a problem that adds up when it happens every other day. Admittedly, that would be a more realistic situation for Noe given the narrative of the game (with Sal being more effective an opponent), but gameplay wise it's a bit like solitaire, where you can play and play but there might not be a way to win even if you make good moves, you see?
However, the current situation also gives the problem that by Noe defending traps so well, Sal has to trap more because he keeps getting weaker in Rep, and so she has to defend more, and a vicious cycle starts where Noe just smacks Sal down all the time. Not brilliant gameplay wise, not really the narrative we want either (Sal winning sometimes, he might win over all too), but it is the better of the two options I've explained here in my opinion... in that paying attention to the game means you win each day a lot more. You have agency and your actions bring about the situation.
So I ask you all, what would you do in my position to improve the gameplay loop here? What change would make it so it's more of a battle between Noe and Sal, but not putting the playing in a no-win day situation? At the moment my view is to weaken the counter bonus to a very small amount so you get something, and the cycle is slowed, but that's not a perfect solution either. I'm open to suggests that don't require expanding our gameplay art requirement, so please, pitch in if any of you have some thoughts on the matter. Cheers.
Yeah, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on the things mentioned in the spoiler. Which is why I did want to preface it with the comment about not potentially seeing eye to eye on what was discussed. So I'm cool with leaving that part behind.
Now concerning the gameplay stuff. I might not be much help with this part. Most the things I can think of would require adding something on top of the current gameplay to break up the cycle.
Like using the old guy in the restaurant as a sort of token/bonus for a week. Him being a retired officer could allow the guy insight on which jobs are trapped for the player, or full on a week where no traps are successful. And once used he'd be placed on a cooldown period where he can't be used for two weeks. This way the player could have a more active way to deal with the traps for a given week, and not have to constantly play defensively.
Then on the flip side have a token/bonus for Sal that he can use for a week as well. Something like using his connections to give himself an artificially inflated rep like an increased bonus to his rep gain, or a decrease to his rep loss with failed traps.
Hey there. Sorry for the late reply, got caught up in a few busy days when last we spoke and this slipped through the cracks. Anyways.
I take it you are asking what it is we do month to month on a release? Well the answer is a lot, and we actually work in a 2 month cycle in parallel with our other game.
I won't do a full list for briefness sake but every month we've got to do:
- Writing, rewriting and editing
- Pre-production on models, environments, clothing, lightning and effects (like the oils in this coming versions)
- Rendering (each image can take several hours, hence it is a big eater of time)
- Post production and photoshopping on images
- Engine building and coding
- Feature Testing, New Content Testing and Gameplay Testing (I personally play each version 2-3 times in full to balance test)
That's just the simple overview, each task is a bunch of smaller tasks that need doing each month, and we're leaving off several other minute things (also I didn't go deep on Art since that's a whole job itself and Unshi knows better). Plus we've got personal life stuff to do each month too, so you can see why it makes for a very busy, tightly packed month-to-month schedule, huh?
Making sexy is by no means easy, it's a job in itself, but it's the one we want to do. It's also fun.
Hey there, cheers for the feedback. No offense taken, happy to hear peoples constructive thoughts but I'm known to want to chat things out and have a bit of a discussion, so here's we go.
Too bad you didn't like the Damon arc, I can see why it's not for everyone, but some people do. It was more Romantic than the Beck one sure, but it was tied to the Romance stat so I think that's a fair thing to expect. If you didn't like Damon's, you might not like Asana's either, although if you are looking for ntr fetishy scenes you may find something to like in Asana's still. Each arc takes on different themes and different angles on fetishes after all. Either way, when we get back to the Beck arc, you'll probably fine more of what you like if you enjoyed the early Beck stuff, and we have some other arcs yet to come too which are more in that vein potential.
Basically what I'm getting at is this: Glad you like some of the game, sorry you don't like it all, but we've got plenty to go yet. Hopefully I can make more enjoyable stuff ahead.
As for the gameplay, also cheers for the heads up. We've only got small amounts of CGs each version (if any sometimes) to help advance that side of things but I'm happy to see it's coming together piece by piece. Going to keep our eye on it and not let that side of the game get lost in the shuffle. There's still plenty of space to include nice things like flirting, touching and sexy in the outcomes (we're only up to Lv3's in the mix after all), but before we get ahead of ourselves we've still got a lot of open slots to fill so we're pushing on there too. Keep an eye out for nice things though.
On a personal note: I see you mentioned a hope for some random things happening in game (like beach strangers etc), and I'd say not to get the hopes up too much on that side of things, for a few reasons. One being that it personally doesn't appeal much to me as the lead developer. Flirting, touching and sexy in the restaurant with customers as I said above is all well and enjoyable, but random scenes with throwaway people just isn't my kind of thing (also aside from Beck and Sal, harassment and semi-rapy stuff isn't my thing either)... Especially in a story where Noe is still mostly (as of now) planning on marrying Brad who she still does have feelings for. Those kinds of scenes are much better suited for our other games like Agent of Heels.
Another reason not to expect much like that for Noe (other girls may differ) is that we simply don't have the time for much like that. Originally the game engine was built to handle Misc scenes outside of a set arc, but we're only about 20% of the way through the game so far with a lot more to do, and with no clear way ahead to increase our pace right now we can't be throwing in random stuff, not if we want to avoid cutting stuff like Roy out to shorten the rest of the game and make room (which we don't want to do).
Anyway, I just thought that was worth a say, I'd be more on the look out for that kind of content from beWilder games led by Unshi (he's better at those kinds of set ups). All in all I think you'll have plenty to enjoy with Noemi, all we need is time and support.
Alright all, back to work for me. Hope y'all are enjoying your December. It's so damn cold here my hands and numb, but I've got sexy to make so I'mma do it now. Cheers all.
