VN Ren'Py Abandoned Our Fate - A new family [v0.15 SE] [CedSense]

[baka]

I don't agree.
lets think this way:

I create a machine that uses salt to generate electricity but I stop mid-way and just vanish.
now another dude is taking up the project, but without any documents, just the alpha-machine and try to reverse engineering it and show it to the investors. look here maybe I can make it work.

now I get angry and tell that dude, don't u dare. and disappear again. well, the dude decide to respect my wishes and stop the production.

who is important? me and my fucking feelings or progress? we could get a salt-machine with clean energy but instead we get nothing because Im greedy.

for me "art" is the same, its something for the masses and should not be forced into stagnation because of greedy bastards.
I mean, "art", like "technology" is not created from nothing, its taken from history, past creation and inventions and should not be stopped.

so here, a team/person taking up with "art" should be allowed to do so.
and its like my own project using a game to create something new. if the game is stopped by the original creator, we can not evolve and create new things and new ideas that people can enjoy.

 

[Walter Victor]

I don't agree.
lets think this way:

I create a machine that uses salt to generate electricity but I stop mid-way and just vanish.
now another dude is taking up the project, but without any documents, just the alpha-machine and try to reverse engineering it and show it to the investors. look here maybe I can make it work.

now I get angry and tell that dude, don't u dare. and disappear again. well, the dude decide to respect my wishes and stop the production.

who is important? me and my fucking feelings or progress? we could get a salt-machine with clean energy but instead we get nothing because Im greedy.

for me "art" is the same, its something for the masses and should not be forced into stagnation because of greedy bastards.
I mean, "art", like "technology" is not created from nothing, its taken from history, past creation and inventions and should not be stopped.

so here, a team/person taking up with "art" should be allowed to do so.
and its like my own project using a game to create something new. if the game is stopped by the original creator, we can not evolve and create new things and new ideas that people can enjoy.

Why did you stop and vanish? You must have had a reason. Were you laid up in a hospital? Do you plan to finish your work as soon as you heal? Perhaps make enough money to cover your hospital expenses? Or are you just an asshole?

Forgive the personal pejorative. But you did put your hypothesis in the first-person singular.

Let us know so we can properly evaluate your particular situation, which may differ 180 degrees from that of the developer... whatever that is.

 

[baka]

I dont say. otherwise u would had known. I just disappear and let u hang there with your penis out of your pants.

 

[Walter Victor]

I dont say. otherwise u would had known. I just disappear and let u hang there with your penis out of your pants.

I guess you don't like to discuss your personal issues in public then.

Some developers just make them up.

 

[-CookieMonster666-]

I don't agree.
lets think this way:

I create a machine that uses salt to generate electricity but I stop mid-way and just vanish.
now another dude is taking up the project, but without any documents, just the alpha-machine and try to reverse engineering it and show it to the investors. look here maybe I can make it work.

now I get angry and tell that dude, don't u dare. and disappear again. well, the dude decide to respect my wishes and stop the production.

who is important? me and my fucking feelings or progress? we could get a salt-machine with clean energy but instead we get nothing because Im greedy.

for me "art" is the same, its something for the masses and should not be forced into stagnation because of greedy bastards.
I mean, "art", like "technology" is not created from nothing, its taken from history, past creation and inventions and should not be stopped.

so here, a team/person taking up with "art" should be allowed to do so.
and its like my own project using a game to create something new. if the game is stopped by the original creator, we can not evolve and create new things and new ideas that people can enjoy.

That's not even the same thing. There's a difference between the idea of a VN and the exact VN itself. There have been several (pseudo-)incest VNs since this one started where a long-lost daughter reunites with her father and romance / sex / whatever ensues. Your premise is that I argued that the idea couldn't be used, but that's not what I said. I said specifically that the creation itself is what should not be taken. The fact is that there are many, many games with this premise and I've never complained that they were "stealing CedSense's work" or similar.

There are many works that have similar histories. You only have to look at literature or especially Hollywood to find content that is clearly heavily inspired by (if not a blatant rip-off of) previous works. While I really wish there were more originality instead of rehashing what someone else made successful, I would never say people can't keep making disaster films, stories where man's first contact with aliens leads to massive death for the humans, or novels about out-of-control AIs becoming a serious threat to all of humanity.

On this specific scenario, even, there's the game Lost at Birth, with which I have zero issue. The creator made the game, obviously inspired by this one to at least some extent, but they are not stealing this game from its developer by doing so. You clearly disagree, but I still stand by what I said: nobody but CedSense should continue with Our Fate unless he gives his specific approval.

 

[Purple Lagoon]

nobody but CedSense should continue with Our Fate unless he gives his specific approval.

100% agree

 

[Yngling]

I would hope a creator is open to letting someone else carry on if they aren't able to

Good posts, but regarding this bit:

It remains to be seen if a second developer would take the game / story in the same direction as the original developer intended.

This means that even if a second developer would continue the game, it may end up going in a direction that the original fans don't like at all.

For example, Lost at Birth is not the same game as Our Fate. Even if the premise is somewhat similar and it was inspired by it, it has a very different feeling. I like Lost at Birth but it doesn't have the same wholesome feeling as Our Fate. Again, I am a fan of Lost at Birth but as a separate game. If Our Fate remake / continuation would have been like Lost at Birth, I would not have been very pleased.

 

[-CookieMonster666-]

Good posts, but regarding this bit:

I would hope a creator is open to letting someone else carry on if they aren't able to

It remains to be seen if a second developer would take the game / story in the same direction as the original developer intended.

This means that even if a second developer would continue the game, it may end up going in a direction that the original fans don't like at all.

For example, Lost at Birth is not the same game as Our Fate. Even if the premise is somewhat similar and it was inspired by it, it has a very different feeling. I like Lost at Birth but it doesn't have the same wholesome feeling as Our Fate. Again, I am a fan of Lost at Birth but as a separate game. If Our Fate remake / continuation would have been like Lost at Birth, I would not have been very pleased.

I agree. I don't think I'd even want to try a version / continuation of this game that CedSense isn't behind. I would still hope the willingness to pass it along would be there, but that doesn't mean I'd enjoy someone else taking it over. I don't think anyone would have the ability truly to continue with Our Fate except its creator, and I absolutely believe nobody should have the right to just snatch it away.

 

[Jstforme]

Interesting points of view, my thinking is if the Dev abandons the game and has been idle for 2 or 3 years, then the Dev no longer has any rights to say "no" to someone willing to put the work in to finish it. It's like divorcing your spouse and forbidding them from any future relationship because you might change your mind and want them back in 5 years. The industry needs to set a rule for situations like this...sort of a statute of limitations rule...after a given amount of time, it's fair game for someone else to take over.
Having a rule in place like that might actually motivate these devs to finish what they started

 

[Walter Victor]

Interesting points of view, my thinking is if the Dev abandons the game and has been idle for 2 or 3 years, then the Dev no longer has any rights to say "no" to someone willing to put the work in to finish it. It's like divorcing your spouse and forbidding them from any future relationship because you might change your mind and want them back in 5 years. The industry needs to set a rule for situations like this...sort of a statute of limitations rule...after a given amount of time, it's fair game for someone else to take over.
Having a rule in place like that might actually motivate these devs to finish what they started

I'm not taking a stance on whether this developer should or should not allow someone else to take over the game. But I fail to see how such a rule would motivate any developer to finish a game. Do you think it would have motivated this developer? Why? He's not getting any revenue from the game. He won't be getting any revenue in the game in 5 years either, with no rule in place. Such a rule would have zero effect on game developers. It would allow another developer to take up the game legally. Bur after 5 years, would anyone care?

Slight change of subject. Will we even be playing AVNs in Ren'Py in 5 years, or will some other platform have taken over? Anyone played any new TADS games lately?

 

[Thickgravy49]

I think it's unfortunate, but I definitely wouldn't call "ridiculous". After all, imagine you were a writer or a filmmaker and you have some real-life, legitimate reason for having to halt your progress. Let's say 3 years down the road suddenly you find out someone has snagged your work and is in the process of hijacking it. Would you really be OK with someone effectively stealing from you just because fans have been wanting more?

I'm not defending CedSense; I have no idea what's going on in his real life. I'm not saying I don't understand the desire to see this game continue. I also would love to see this continue; it's one of the early games I played and I miss the hell out of it. But I don't think fans' desires should ever justify thievery of a creator's work. I don't think there is any circumstance under which that is justified. I would hope a creator is open to letting someone else carry on if they aren't able to, but I would never be OK with someone robbing an artist of their creation. That just feels morally abhorrent to me.

So, you're perfectly fine with being a pirate(like the rest of us), stealing every other deveopers work, but for some strange reason you find it 'morally abhorrent' that someone should steal Cedsense's work?
What's so special about that guy?

If someone wants to continue the game, they should, imo. It doesn't matter whether Cedsense approves, or not.
If the guy wants to eventually come back, the fact that someone else has done some fan-fiction, doesn't prevent him in any way from continuing his work, so wtf?

 

[-CookieMonster666-]

Interesting points of view, my thinking is if the Dev abandons the game and has been idle for 2 or 3 years, then the Dev no longer has any rights to say "no" to someone willing to put the work in to finish it. It's like divorcing your spouse and forbidding them from any future relationship because you might change your mind and want them back in 5 years. The industry needs to set a rule for situations like this...sort of a statute of limitations rule...after a given amount of time, it's fair game for someone else to take over.
Having a rule in place like that might actually motivate these devs to finish what they started

There is such a rule: it's called copyright law. Copyright has a specific time limit, depending on jurisdiction. This is not an equivalence. What you're saying basically amounts to "ceasing work on a creative endeavor is like ending a marriage, therefore preventing someone else from stealing your specific work is like preventing someone else from pursuing any of their own creation at all". That's not even remotely close to the same thing.

First of all, even if your comparison were accurate, it still isn't the same as what I'm saying. The equivalent would instead be that you deny anyone the right to marry the woman whom you divorced. But that isn't a good comparison anyway, because a woman isn't anyone's property; a creation is. Laws in multiple countries very clearly give someone full rights to protect their ideas from theft. There are no laws (in any civilized country, in any case) that allow a divorcée to control the life of their ex after their union is dissolved. It's not even a remotely good comparison.

Second, your equivalence — tenuous at best — suggests that there is some kind of contract between the creator and the player. Despite what some suggest, patrons aren't actually in any contract with the developer. The only contract they have is with the platform itself, both in terms of payments they make and whether or not they might be able to get a refund. Many creators will pause or even refund payments they get, but that's not required of any of them unless they violate Patreon's policies somehow.

Patrons of CedSense are/were not paying for Our Fate itself; they're paying to support the creator in their efforts. Do you buy the same early-access game on Steam multiple times? No; you pay for the game once and as it's updated, you get the latest updates under that same purchase. There you are actually buying the game in whatever form it exists in perpetuity. The purchases on Patreon are to support the creator, as Patreon themselves state in a couple of different places on their platform (their

You must be registered to see the links

and their

You must be registered to see the links

).

So, you're perfectly fine with being a pirate(like the rest of us), stealing every other deveopers work, but for some strange reason you find it 'morally abhorrent' that someone should steal Cedsense's work?
What's so special about that guy?

If someone wants to continue the game, they should, imo. It doesn't matter whether Cedsense approves, or not.
If the guy wants to eventually come back, the fact that someone else has done some fan-fiction, doesn't prevent him in any way from continuing his work, so wtf?

It is true that I play many of these games (those that I don't buy on Itch.io, Steam, or elsewhere) without official permission. I'm not going to pretend that what I do is OK. Additionally, I won't claim there isn't some degree in hypocrisy in my behavior. That said, these are not equivalent.

Having and playing a game that's been pirated isn't the same thing as trying to take a game from its creator, claiming it as my own creation, and then trying to profit off of someone else's work. There are degrees of bad behavior, and I don't think those are really comparable. I'm not trying to make a living from all of the work somebody else has done. I'm not trying to start a career based on credit that I haven't earned. I'm not destroying someone else's reputation (via nullification) by removing any progress they've made and giving it to myself.

You obviously disagree, but I don't see them as the same thing. If we were to compare the damages in terms of the law, my playing pirated games would amount to a small-claims court suit that might result in a few hundred dollars (pounds, whatever) to the owner of the game. Taking the game away from the creator and claiming it as your own would be considered intellectual property theft, and would be the equivalent of a much larger suit, possibly even over a million dollars in damages (depending on claims and what could be sustained by way of proof or registration rights). The crimes are even given different names. I see it as the law does: quite a big difference in degrees.

 

[baka]

U have never been in the site FanFiction? Or all the thousands mod games? U r not stealing shit, u are doing a continuation of a story, that U are making. The dev could call it “the untold story”. 0% is made by cedsense. Not even the 3d model is the same. The dev need to figure it out. If u r that strict we wouldn’t be able to read manga or xxx cartoon with famous celebrities.

 

[-CookieMonster666-]

U have never been in the site FanFiction? Or all the thousands mod games? U r not stealing shit, u are doing a continuation of a story, that U are making. The dev could call it “the untold story”. 0% is made by cedsense. Not even the 3d model is the same. The dev need to figure it out. If u r that strict we wouldn’t be able to read manga or xxx cartoon with famous celebrities.

I agree. I would be 100% fine with something like this. Again, people seem to be arguing against points that I'm not making. I never said I had a problem with someone creating their own work within the universe of this one. I never said I took issue with someone making the same idea as this game.

I even believe the law is a bit too strict in regard to the point you bring up. A creator is allowed to sue (potentially) over using characters they've created. Even while those types of lawsuits are hard to win, I don't think the law is right to allow them at all. Why should a creator be able to sue over use of one of their characters? They could simply say someone else's work isn't canon and appreciate another's own spin on something they created.

I'm not sure I'd enjoy playing a game that basically takes the same universe and character(s) and makes another story. But that's not the same as thinking they shouldn't have the right to do that (they should). If the characters aren't written closely enough to the originals, it wouldn't feel the same to me. But I'd be OK with someone trying this nevertheless.

The same is true of a mod. By its very name, you're claiming it's not the original work, but an adjustment to it. I don't see any problem with that.

 

[Thickgravy49]

There is such a rule: it's called copyright law. Copyright has a specific time limit, depending on jurisdiction. This is not an equivalence. What you're saying basically amounts to "ceasing work on a creative endeavor is like ending a marriage, therefore preventing someone else from stealing your specific work is like preventing someone else from pursuing any of their own creation at all". That's not even remotely close to the same thing.

First of all, even if your comparison were accurate, it still isn't the same as what I'm saying. The equivalent would instead be that you deny anyone the right to marry the woman whom you divorced. But that isn't a good comparison anyway, because a woman isn't anyone's property; a creation is. Laws in multiple countries very clearly give someone full rights to protect their ideas from theft. There are no laws (in any civilized country, in any case) that allow a divorcée to control the life of their ex after their union is dissolved. It's not even a remotely good comparison.

Second, your equivalence — tenuous at best — suggests that there is some kind of contract between the creator and the player. Despite what some suggest, patrons aren't actually in any contract with the developer. The only contract they have is with the platform itself, both in terms of payments they make and whether or not they might be able to get a refund. Many creators will pause or even refund payments they get, but that's not required of any of them unless they violate Patreon's policies somehow.

Patrons of CedSense are/were not paying for Our Fate itself; they're paying to support the creator in their efforts. Do you buy the same game early-access game on Steam multiple times? No; you pay for the game once and as it's updated, you get the latest updates under that same purchase. There you are actually buying the game in whatever form it exists in perpetuity. The purchases on Patreon are to support the creator, as Patreon themselves state in a couple of different places on their platform (their

You must be registered to see the links

and their

You must be registered to see the links

).

It is true that I play many of these games (those that I don't buy on Itch.io, Steam, or elsewhere) without official permission. I'm not going to pretend that what I do is OK. Additionally, I won't claim there isn't some degree in hypocrisy in my behavior. That said, these are not equivalent.

Having and playing a game that's been pirated isn't the same thing as trying to take a game from its creator, claiming it as my own creation, and then trying to profit off of someone else's work. There are degrees of bad behavior, and I don't think those are really comparable. I'm not trying to make a living from all of the work somebody else has done. I'm not trying to start a career based on credit that I haven't earned. I'm not destroying someone else's reputation (via nullification) by removing any progress they've made and giving it to myself.

You obviously disagree, but I don't see them as the same thing. If we were to compare the damages in terms of the law, my playing pirated games would amount to a small-claims court suit that might result in a few hundred dollars (pounds, whatever) to the owner of the game. Taking the game away from the creator and claiming it as your own would be considered intellectual property theft, and would be the equivalent of a much larger suit, possibly even over a million dollars in damages (depending on claims and what could be sustained by way of proof or registration rights). The crimes are even given different names. I see it as the law does: quite a big difference in degrees.

Who said anything about someone continuing the game and claiming it as their own?
I said fan-fiction.
You're just moving the goalposts to try to prove your point.

As to your other point, unless you're a lawyer, then I take statements like yours with a hefty pinch of salt.
I'm definitely not a lawyer, but I do know that any kind of lawsuit costs money...usually lots and lots of money.
I think its highly unlikely that the former dev would try to take anything like this to court.
There are all kinds of factors involved, not least having the cash to do it.
He'd also need to find the real identity of the 'perpetrator', and get them to court in the first place.
The guy could live anywhere in the world. Is he really going to go to all the trouble and expense of getting someone extradited?
That could take several years of court action, appeals etc. Do you think Cedsense is a guy that could afford all of that?
I highly doubt it.

 

[ifss]

Have you guys seen the Demon Boy Saga attempts? Give me a break!

 

[-CookieMonster666-]

Who said anything about someone continuing the game and claiming it as their own?
I said fan-fiction.
You're just moving the goalposts to try to prove your point.

I'm sorry if you weren't making that point. However, continuing the game and claiming it as their own was the only thing I said I don't think should be allowed. So I have no idea what you were trying to argue in your previous post, but it wasn't against a point I myself was making, then. To repeat again, because apparently people are missing what I've said now multiple times: I don't have any problem with someone else using the same theme, the same characters, or the same idea for their own games.

I take issue only with someone trying to continue this specific game, Our Fate, as has been suggested a few times, like here, here and here. I suppose it does depend on what people mean by using the word continue, but it often seemed like the literal use to me, meaning they would install the current version, then try to add code for the game to keep going, and ultimately still calling it Our Fate, as if it were their own. This is the only thing I am against. Perhaps they meant something else.

As to your other point, unless you're a lawyer, then I take statements like yours with a hefty pinch of salt.
I'm definitely not a lawyer, but I do know that any kind of lawsuit costs money...usually lots and lots of money.
I think its highly unlikely that the former dev would try to take anything like this to court.
There are all kinds of factors involved, not least having the cash to do it.
He'd also need to find the real identity of the 'perpetrator', and get them to court in the first place.
The guy could live anywhere in the world. Is he really going to go to all the trouble and expense of getting someone extradited?
That could take several years of court action, appeals etc. Do you think Cedsense is a guy that could afford all of that?
I highly doubt it.

I'm not going to reveal much about my personal details; there's a reason I'm anonymous here. But I will say that I have experience in the law field and leave it at that. However, I will provide some links to legal sources so you can see for yourself some of the laws and procedures that can be involved.

To address the point about costs, you are correct that all lawsuits require money, of differing amounts. Small claims court costs generally include filing fees (from $30–$50 average in the U.S.; see, for example,

You must be registered to see the links

) plus money for things like lawyers you might hire (with widely varying costs, depending on locality, quality of representation you secure, etc.). Some choose no representation but self (as seen on shows like The People's Court or Judge Judy, where actual cases have been telecast for the world to see).

Suing for damages and violation of intellectual property rights is much more expensive. Again, the fees vary greatly and depend on lawyers hired, provable amount of profit loss you've incurred, and other factors. However, you can obtain a cease and desist order that avoids those types of costs and is

You must be registered to see the links

. In fact, cease and desist orders are used extremely often, even by corporations (which don't tend to enjoy cutting into their profit margins when their on-retainer legal teams could be using their time for other matters).

I have no idea what CedSense's personal situation is. Perhaps IRL he has a very well-paying job and makes enough money that a lawsuit would make sense. It's less likely, to be sure. Even if he doesn't have the cash for a case in court, however, there are other legal remedies that can be pursued. You of course are free to "take statements like [mine] with a hefty pinch of salt". However, it's very easy to find resources online to show how blatant violation of someone else's copyright isn't as easy as a huge number of people seem to think it is.

Anyway, I'm done circling the same carcass now. Everyone can pretend I'm making points I'm not. They can argue however they wish. I've said what I wanted and don't feel like belaboring a discussion on the matter. I really hope CedSense comes back; I absolutely would restart the game and play through everything again without a second thought. I miss the hell out of this game.

 

[leevicious]

Sometimes I come here just to delude myself.

 

[Gadget63]

It's a shame because it was a good game

 

[ifss]

Well, something is going on in the world - I don't want to speculate too much. Once that ends, hopefully, CedSense will be back.