VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch. 12 Full] [Eva Kiss]

[Cawapuce2321]

Okay, let me tell you this behind-the-scenes secret. This conversation was initially in Chapter 6, with a bit different context. Ian didn't have the option to be neutral. At all. I brought it up to Eva, so she decided to cut it out and replaced the conversation with Perry and Wade checking Ivy's and Lena's Peoplegram. I realized that she decided to implement this dialogue in Chapter 7 at least, but added options to be actively transphobic, be neutral or make fun of Perry while avoiding the touchy subject, instead saying "Is there some kind of porn you don't like?", lightening the mood. Are any of those options ideal? Not really. Do they allow to play Ian differently? Yes. To me, that was okay while I might have preferred a more direct answer supporting trans-women, too.

Now, I could relay the criticism to Eva and say that it's still not enough and that the players want an active option to educate Wade. One of two things can happen.
1) She might change the wording of the last option to be more defensive, but the thing is, it's harder to converge the dialogue into the same place as all other options do, because Wade might get angry and say something like "don't go all SJW on me, today I want to relax", potentially even resulting in -1 Wade point.

2) She might cut the conversation altogether again and not bother bringing it back or writing about these kinds of topics ever again because angering people is the last thing she wants to accomplish. And considering that it's exactly what she did the first time, that's the most likely outcome.

So, what should it be? Here's the moment of an absolute agency where you get to rewrite the script.

I think Eva should do as she please because it is her game and no matter what you do you will always have people to complain about your work it is human nature but anyway thanks for your concern and your work here and with Eva !

 

[thomastm]

I guess it's older save file? Earlier fate of Jessica depended on Ian's interaction with Cherry(I think so) but it changed to LenaxRobert/Mike after v5 enhanced version.

NOOOOOOO.....WHYYYYYYY, So to get good Jess you have to play as good Lena? Won't Lena lose her job if she don't have sex with Robert?

 

[MacAdGames]

WOW! What an amazing update! After 2 disappointments from A wife and a mother and Jessica O'Neil, this has been a total opposite, the most amazing update! Those two devs should learn from Eva, She gives what we want, and then finishes it on a very high note, can't wait to see what's gonna happen next, what IVY and JEREMY gonna do.

Your Updates are like Game Of Thrones, where each season is super awesome and we wanna know what's gonna happen next!

Loved this update a lotttttttt!

PS: I'd rather go with Cindy than Alison as the second girl, so tough to choose b/w Lena and Cindy!

 

[BlandChili]

Now, I could relay the criticism to Eva and say that it's still not enough and that the players want an active option to educate Wade. One of two things can happen.
1) She might change the wording of the last option to be more defensive, but the thing is, it's harder to converge the dialogue into the same place as all other options do, because Wade might get angry and say something like "don't go all SJW on me, today I want to relax", potentially even resulting in -1 Wade point.

2) She might cut the conversation altogether again and not bother bringing it back or writing about these kinds of topics ever again because angering people is the last thing she wants to accomplish. And considering that it's exactly what she did the first time, that's the most likely outcome.

So, what should it be? Here's the moment of an absolute agency where you get to rewrite the script.

To be completely honest with you, there are probably someone better suited for suggesting a specific change, I don't actually involve myself in the defense of transgender issues that often, but I will bite anyway.
Just to be clear, my main point is the availability of choice, since my perspective comes not just from my sexuality but also that I studied games design in university and am a fan of branching narratives.

First, a question: Is there a limit to the amount of responses? I recall other sections of the game where there are more than three. Maybe Evakiss just decided she only wants three in that interaction and that's fine too, it's just to know the limits present. For what it's worth I don't actually have an issue myself with the responses that are already there. I would just add one more if that option is available.

I would do something simple and just have Ian say something along the lines of "They aren't just porn," or "It isn't just about porn," in the paraphrased choice, to which Ian will add "they are (or "transgender persons are") people just like you and me," to the spoken line. To this Perry or Emma might add "That's true" and Wade will respond with something along the lines of "whatever" or "that's not the point" or "no they aren't" whatever Eva thinks represents him better. I wouldn't mind Wade getting a -1 for an interaction like that either, I think it would only be realistic. I don't think people who picks the option to defend transgender care a lot about losing approval with a person seen as a bigot after all.

I don't think he has to take it as a personal attack any more than the response Ian has for defending it as a porn category though, the conversation doesn't have to devolve into something else. If Wade just makes a non-caring response like "whatever," from there it can just connect to Perry's line about dickgirls being a cartoon porn category and the real world equivalent being transsexual.

There you go. Ian gets to speak his mind and the integrity of the exchange isn't made into a political debate. How's that?
What do you think of my suggestion lifegetsweird?

EDIT: Clarification, I wasn't aware Cindy could be present for that conversation myself either, so I am only talking about how the exchange plays out without her. Can someone tell me in a spoiler how, if at all, the conversation changes with her invovled?

 

[Cicica]

I don't find Ian boring. At the beginning of the game, maybe yes. But then it all depends on the player - whether he should be an alpha or beta, or something in between.
It's generally good that Eva made the characters contradictory. It makes a game more alive and realistic, but i hope for more characters, that gives a positive energy in the future updates.

Yes that's better said, he's boring in the beginning compared to the other dudes, in the way that he doesn't really stand out, stereotypical wise, but down the line, depending on choices and interactions he can get to be very interesting.

 

[godoff95]

Hi, does anyone have an idea, why Eva made most of male characters annoying? Take a look:
Axel is a typical abuser, Robert trying to be bully macho-man, but can be punched by Ian twice, and aches about "feelings". He probably have some complex.
Perry is annoying, Wade acts like a man in a midlife crisis(Typical Michael from GTAV), lives a passive life like a vegetable. Stan... no words, just Creepy Stan.
The only characters that gives a positive vibes for me are Jeremy, Mike and Seymour. And probably new black dude from 0.7

My guess is as her previous mc was a female she gave more emphasis on Ian, her first male mc.

 

[studyguide]

Am I the only one that's starting to get Leah from Acting Lessons vibe from Alison?

How so ? i don´t

 

[BloodyMares]

EDIT: Clarification, I wasn't aware Cindy could be present for that conversation myself either, so I am only talking about how the exchange plays out without her. Can someone tell me in a spoiler how, if at all, the conversation changes with her invovled?

Spoiler: Conversation with Cindy present

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[BlandChili]

Spoiler: Conversation with Cindy present

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Alright, so not something that would impact my suggestion then. If anything I actually think those lines would work well with "Ian who speaks up." Cheers.

 

[Tierra_Azul]

As of this update Ivy can do some pretty manipulative and potentially hurtful shit for either really petty reasons, or for some weird desire of wanting other people to be just as reckless as she is (maybe she wants to normalize her behavior among her friends so she can feel less guilt about the worse things that she does).

I think the useage of MDMA plays a part of Ivys behaviour. While she seems to always have been promiscuous, MDMA will enhance this even more. Every feeling you have will be more intense with molly in the system.

Hi, does anyone have an idea, why Eva made most of male characters annoying? Take a look:
Axel is a typical abuser, Robert trying to be bully macho-man, but can be punched by Ian twice, and aches about "feelings". He probably have some complex.
Perry is annoying, Wade acts like a man in a midlife crisis(Typical Michael from GTAV), lives a passive life like a vegetable. Stan... no words, just Creepy Stan.
The only characters that gives a positive vibes for me are Jeremy, Mike and Seymour. And probably new black dude from 0.7

I think you are looking at Jeremy and Mike with rose tinted glasses. They are no better than Axel, just less menecing and less alpha. Jeremy is cheating on Louise, sure Louise is clingy and overly dramatic, but the manly thing to do, would be to A) Tell her you need space and not ready to commit. Or B) Break up, and live out your chosen lifestyle. He also acts like a bitch when he gets found out. Mike also has these flaws, he's also in a releationship, but he has no character developement beyond beeing a fuckboy at this point.
As for Seymour, whatever his end goal is, Im willing to bet it won't be anything morally good.

Would have preferred to not have the destiny of one of the main cast from the previous game influenced by such a random choice. Specially one that pretty much locks Lena out of 2 of the only 3 possible sexual relationships she can have so far in the game (without counting the protagonists fucking each other).

Can't you just cheat in the console? (Btw. Haven't tried it myself.)
Jess_bad = False
Jess_good = True (if needed)

 

[BloodyMares]

Alright, Lilyann, I noticed your 4 facepalms in a row. Do you have something to tell me?

Also, I relayed all the criticism to Eva. If she decides to cut the dialogue out, well, you know your heroes.

 

[AnnaGotBlacked]

Here are the ways I think Lena can have more appreciating male partners:

1. Lena can have a new co-model who isn't a psychopath like Axel, but exactly the opposite.
2. She can meet one of Emma's colleague or friend at the music store.
3. Or she can join writing classes where she likes her instructor (like in Lust Passion)
4. Perry's dad sounds like a chill dude, also the mayor. He might accidently walk into Lena in the bathroom and Lena might say it's okay. Also, he can hire her to be his secretary.
5. I thought about Perry but couldn't come up with anything.
6. I thought the Van Kemps would invite her to bed but that's unlikely it seems.
7. Then we have Ian's dad and Lena's dad jerking off to Lena's stockfap

8. or we get the greatest of all time back; Arthur

 

[lifegetsweird]

To be completely honest with you, there are probably someone better suited for suggesting a specific change, I don't actually involve myself in the defense of transgender issues that often, but I will bite anyway.
Just to be clear, my main point is the availability of choice, since my perspective comes not just from my sexuality but also that I studied games design in university and am a fan of branching narratives.

First, a question: Is there a limit to the amount of responses? I recall other sections of the game where there are more than three. Maybe Evakiss just decided she only wants three in that interaction and that's fine too, it's just to know the limits present. For what it's worth I don't actually have an issue myself with the responses that are already there. I would just add one more if that option is available.

I would do something simple and just have Ian say something along the lines of "They aren't just porn," in the paraphrased choice, to which Ian will add "they are people just like you and me," to the spoken line. To this Perry or Emma might add "That's true" and Wade will respond with something along the lines of "whatever" or "that's not the point" or "no they aren't" whatever Eva thinks represents him better. I wouldn't mind Wade getting a -1 for an interaction like that either, I think it would only be realistic. I don't think people who picks the option to defend transgender care a lot about losing approval with a person seen as a bigot after all.

I don't think he has to take it as a personal attack any more than the response Ian has for defending it as a porn category though, the conversation doesn't have to devolve into something else. If Wade just makes a non-caring response like "whatever," from there it can just connect to Perry's line about dickgirls being a cartoon porn category and the real world equivalent being transsexual.

There you go. Ian gets to speak his mind and the integrity of the exchange isn't made into a political debate. How's that?
What do you think of my suggestion lifegetsweird?

EDIT: Clarification, I wasn't aware Cindy could be present for that conversation myself either, so I am only talking about how the exchange plays out without her. Can someone tell me in a spoiler how, if at all, the conversation changes with her invovled?

It would be better if there was an option like this, sure. Although in general the whole exchange feels very 2010 in my opinion; not up to the standards of writing of the rest of the game. And I'm not just saying that because it offends me personally as a trans woman. I think the whole debacle with JK Rowling is indicative of how attitudes have changed around trans people, and having these seemingly educated characters be this transphobic is a bit passé lol.

 

[Padio]

Any plans on Dominant Minerva Route?_? I would love to see Ian blackmailed or voluntary becoming her office slave.

BTW, Great game!

 

[phantomz]

Here are the ways I think Lena can have more appreciating male partners:

1. Lena can have a new co-model who isn't a psychopath like Axel, but exactly the opposite.
2. She can meet one of Emma's colleague or friend at the music store.
3. Or she can join writing classes where she likes her instructor (like in Lust Passion)
4. Perry's dad sounds like a chill dude, also the mayor. He might accidently walk into Lena in the bathroom and Lena might say it's okay. Also, he can hire her to be his secretary.
5. I thought about Perry but couldn't come up with anything.
6. I thought the Van Kemps would invite her to bed but that's unlikely it seems.
7. Then we have Ian's dad and Lena's dad jerking off to Lena's stockfap

add Stan to your list , i think it can be interesting

Spoiler

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[Cicica]

Alright, Lilyann, I noticed your 4 facepalms in a row. Do you have something to tell me?

Also, I relayed all the criticism to Eva. If she decides to cut the dialogue out, well, you know your heroes.

I personally won't miss that part of the dialogue, as I don't find it vital for the story.

 

[victkh]

We dont need this SJW stuff in porn game with sexy and kinky girls,
boring SJW things are more than enough in everyday life and cinema

 

[jalon33]

I personally won't miss that part of the dialogue, as I don't find it vital for the story.

This is a bit difficult to tap around. We all agree that ORS is an outstanding game, and we all love Eva for creating it for us. Part of me is reluctant to offer criticism for fear of hurting her feelings when I’m so grateful for what she’s created.

But I too was put off by the trans conversation. It seemed to depict heavily outdated and disdainful thinking, and that content topic she chose wasn’t necessary to accomplish the goal of the scene. She could have written an entirely different conversation that still served the same purpose, without including hate speech that could negatively impact certain people playing the game.

Similarly, I was also disappointed by Eva’s recent post referencing “jungle fever” when describing fans’ preference for Jeremy. That’s a phrase rooted in racism.

I’m a straight white male. Neither of these things offended me personally, but I can see with empathy how they may hurt others.

I don’t know if these examples are indications of Eva’s character, or just elements of her culture where she lives. When she receives some of our collective criticism, I hope she can use it as an opportunity for reflection and growth and not perceive it as a personal attack.

 

[godoff95]

add Stan to your list , i think it can be interesting

Spoiler

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No need cause, I already consider Stan the Man to get some Lena pussy .

 

[BlandChili]

It would be better if there was an option like this, sure. Although in general the whole exchange feels very 2010 in my opinion; not up to the standards of writing of the rest of the game. And I'm not just saying that because it offends me personally as a trans woman. I think the whole debacle with JK Rowling is indicative of how attitudes have changed around trans people, and having these seemingly educated characters be this transphobic is a bit passé lol.

I am curious, and I hope you don't mind my openly asking this of you directly like this, how do you think a scene like this is ideally written?

Let's say the purpose of the scene is to 1. Bring up the topic of the transgender and the transsexual, 2. Bring up pornography categories in relation to such persons, 3. Have one character (for example Perry) that enjoys the pornographic content of this nature and one character (for example Wade) that shows a clear dislike for it.

Obviously persons that dislike or are intolerant of transgender persons exist, so how do we depict them in a way that is realistic, while allowing the player character to either be neutral to or disagree/agree with the various notions presented, depending on what the player wants them to express?