VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch. 12 Full] [Eva Kiss]

[D2M3]

I do believe their point is that if you choose to represent only one character of a social minority, it behooves a writer to make it fit the demographic in a positive or appreciative manner otherwise it comes across as negative/shallow/one-dimensional which quickly becomes discriminatory if directed at social minorities.

If you represent one X and they just happen to be Y, even if it's for the best and most logical of reasons, you portray a fictional world in which 100% of all Xs are Ys. Which can be detrimental to X's struggle for legitimacy and more equal rights if Y is negative or stereotypical.

This is an ideological disagreement we will never get over. I never subscribe to the " if you have one specific minority representation, it needs to be positive to avoid reinforcing stereotypes" theory.

It is my utmost belief that weak storytelling with seemingly flawless minority characters that are more harmful to mainstream acceptance, whereas 3D examinations of such characters are ALWAYS more effective in that endeavor.

A clear distinction to make about trans people: In Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho, our villain is revealed to be a crossdressing man (as his mother no less) (spoilers for a literally half century old movie). For the longest time, this was denoted as a transsexual depiction. But it was not. Furthermore, the villain was as 2 dimensional as they came. That single movie painted the pop culture with sexual deviant trans people for decades. Weak storytelling in an otherwise masterpiece of a movie caused untold harm to trans people's lives.

Then we have Jared Leto's character in Dallas Buyers Club. The movie deals with a very specific subset of american history, the onset and progression of the aids epidemic. And this character was the emotional heart of the movie. She wasn't by any means a saint, and in fact shown to be a very flawed character many times. Yet watch that movie and tell me you hate trans people still, because that story, while ending tragically, told a strong story with a very 3D trans character.

This is the difference I can see EvaKiss was trying to go with in GGGB ( which as mentioned, was the request of a trans patron themselves!) This conversation in Red String is a good attempt at portraying a charged dialogue between friends. The choice to have that conversation or not would be the offensive way to do it.

"Choosing" not to have that conversation is an even bigger political statement than portraying that conversation itself in the first place.

 

[Brickman]

I don't have the script at hand, but playing through the scene I felt that the language was borderline dehumanizing. The range of reactions went from calling trans women "men with tits", to saying trans women are an okay fetish to have.

It's whatever. It's Eva's game to write and she's entitled to have as much transphobia in it as he wants, but I'm entitled to my opinion and in my opinion this part was unnecessary and pretty telling of certain biased and beliefs.

This is the problem with PC culture, virtue signalling and SJW warriors getting offended on behalf of other collectives and "standing up" for their issues (I'm not calling you a SJW but your argument is characteristic of that social movement). I think you are getting confused: what a character says does not represent what the author thinks, promotes or stand for.

As BloodyMares clearly exposed, you get a wide range of reactions from the cast, from Perry to Cindy, and YOU CAN CHOOSE as Ian how to react. I think Eva's just painting a varied picture of opinions through her characters, and none of them seem to be (or need to be) morally flawless. You as a player get to see what someone like Wade thinks, or what turns Perry on, or what moral objections Alison has, etc. You get to know the characters and you're entitled to an opinion about that and how to feel about them.

Wade sounds like a dumbass and Perry is a perv who gets turned on and fetishizes trans women. You can disagree with them. But saying the game or the dev are trans-phobic is just a straw-man argument and seems like an unwillingness to go beyond a shallow read on what's actually being portrayed. As you said, it is telling of certain biased and beliefs, but that doesn't mean the game or the dev promote them, they are just reflecting them on certain characters and giving you the opotion to reflec and react on that as you see fit.

That's just my opinion, though.

 

[lifegetsweird]

I think it did. So it's not so much that a exchange like this can't possibly ever happen under any circumstances, but rather that on its own it conforms to some very intolerant notions that makes it offensive by nature? Like, it exists within a narrative vacuum of sorts?

So a "solution," if there were to be one, rather than just rewriting the topic of transgender people within that one conversation, it should be introduced and utilized in the story before this point, as to normalize that content within the game's narratve, even if the point of the game is pornographic in nature?

I mean, sure, i guess. There's always a broader context. And when you introduce themes related to minorities in a narrative work, it's always important to consider the context, and to be specially wary of damaging stereotypes.

If you're writing a game set in Europe and the only American character is fat and arrogant and gun-loving, well, it's not a great look--but everyone knows there's so much more to America. But if the only black character is a criminal, the only gay character is a pedophile, and the only muslim is a terrorist... you're no longer writing "flawed characters" or whatever, you're perpetuating harmful stereotypes. Trans women have been endlessly fetishized and dehumanized in mainstream media for decades, so if the only time they're brought up in your narrative is to call them dudes with tits and "acceptable fetishes"... Yeah, you get my point.

 

[redraw]

This is an ideological disagreement we will never get over. I never subscribe to the " if you have one specific minority representation, it needs to be positive to avoid reinforcing stereotypes" theory.

It is my utmost belief that weak storytelling with seemingly flawless minority characters that are more harmful to mainstream acceptance, whereas 3D examinations of such characters are ALWAYS more effective in that endeavor.

This is an imposed argument, however. Most of the criticism I have observed -- broadly, not just in this case -- is not that certain persons aren't treated exclusively reverentially, but that they are very frequently portrayed in a negative and still singular light.

For instance, as sexual fetishes rather than the multi-dimensional people you would like to witness.

Popular media features an overabundance of these negative depictions, not merely flawed, complicated depictions.

 

[Reaurt]

By the way, if you pick the tell that embarrassing story option at Ivy's party, you get some insight into Ivy and how Ivy and Lena became friends.

As for the above discussion, I don't think it's too hard to fix, although yeah I didn't realize initially how that conversation could be taken. Perhaps a fourth option could be included that functions mechanically similar in terms of game function as the third option (supporting Perry and showing Perry and Emma are open-minded sexually), but has an opening line or two establishing the humanity of trans people before defending Perry.

 

[redraw]

KEK. You must be trolling here, right?

There's some really bleak internal data coming out in those posts, but it all seems unfortunately earnest.

Though the reading of the criticism seems less earnest.

 

[redraw]

Like, much of the criticism that I've read here is not about Wade having very plausible stances on the subject, not asking that his dialogue be removed -- but instead that the player have more options to respond to Wade.

They seem to be asking for more expression, not less ..

 

[D2M3]

This is an imposed argument, however. Most of the criticism I have observed -- broadly, not just in this case -- is not that certain persons aren't treated exclusively reverentially, but that they are very frequently portrayed in a negative and still singular light.

For instance, as sexual fetishes rather than the multi-dimensional people you would like to witness.

Popular media features an overabundance of these negative depictions, not merely flawed, complicated depictions.

You should've read the rest of that post.

I made a clear distinction exactly how media got flooded by those negative representations.

Also, people are asking for the option to "choose" not to have the conversation, not to have more response options for Ian.

It is clearly not the ideal way to go.

And by definition, all opinions are technically impositions. That's what an argument is. It's an imposed plea to forward the conversation and exchange with the opposing side of it.

 

[BloodyMares]

No one blamed Eva for racism here (lol wut?). Also come on, this shit that Wade said about trans people is absolutely transphobic ("men with tits"? come on). It doesn't mean that Eva is herself transphobic, and no one in this thread has said that characters in this game can't say transphobic things. I would even argue that inclusion of this line is actually good because it shows that Wade is an asshole, so it is a form of a character development. The only thing that people complained was the lack of a choice to call Wade out on this shit. It is not a form of censorship. If a player wants to agree with Wade then they are free to. No one gives a fuck.

Are you sure? Because I got the vibes that lifegetsweird was doing exactly that, blaming Eva for what was coming out of Wade's mouth, and attributing his stupidity to Eva's malice. If what you say is indeed true, then all of this seems to be a huge misunderstanding.

 

[BlandChili]

Also, people are asking for the option to "choose" not to have the conversation, not to have more response options for Ian.

It is clearly not the ideal way to go.

That's a lie. Go back and read the discussion between me and BloodyMares where I make a direct suggestion for adding a fourth option to Ian.
I, along with a few others are just entertaining the idea that Ian could have more ways to respond.

 

[redraw]

You should've read the rest of that post.

I read your post, man, we need not do that.

I was responding explicitly to that argument.

As for people demanding dialogue be cut, I might have missed that. You know how forum discussions can flow. Thirty pages of black nail polish and then blammo.

But the arguments I'd read seemed pretty measured by comparison to the 'SJW/PC' counter-reactions.

 

[Cabot]

Like, much of the criticism that I've read here is not about Wade having very plausible stances on the subject, not asking that his dialogue be removed -- but instead that the player have more options to respond to Wade.

It's how it all started, tough:

I reeeally could have done without the extremely transphobic language :/ it came out of left field too.

 

[Leonardovisk]

Ok i finished chapter 7 and Lena still has no man (or Ivy) who truly deserve and worthy of her

I think EvaKiss is Lenaphobic

 

[redraw]

It's how it all started, tough:

Alright, but that's hardly a call for specific action and reads more like someone's personal reaction.

This forum is filled to the brim with people's demands for the inclusion and exclusion of personally-tailored content.

Nearly every game has a patch to modify them towards or away from certain content.

Not terribly threatening in general.

 

[Leonardovisk]

Bad jokes aside im very impressed with the quality of EvaKiss work.


Amazing!

 

[D2M3]

I read your post, man, we need not do that.

I was responding explicitly to that argument.

As for people demanding dialogue be cut, I might have missed that. You know how forum discussions can flow. Thirty pages of black nail polish and then blammo.

But the arguments I'd read seemed pretty measured by comparison to the 'SJW/PC' counter-reactions.

Let me be clear then, for all to see, once more.

1) Choosing NOT to have that conversation? No. Bad idea.
2) Adding more options for Ian's conversation options to respond to Wade? Sure thing. Stellar idea.
3) Media did not get flooded due to an excellent 3D depiction of a sexual deviant trans person, it got flooded due to Hitchcock's 2D representation of a crossdresser misinterpreted (intentonally misinterpreted by the puritannical american right for decades) as a trans person.
4) The most positive outcomes of trans people are not coming from places where they are flawless angels, it's coming from projects like Orange is the New Black or POSE, not to mention many other excellent new shows and movies from the last 5 years.
5) At its core, this is Eva's story. No one else's. She should not cut out a single thing she intended for to be in the game, unless she fully resolves it wasn't a good storytelling decision to do so. But out of fear of backlash? No, nothing should be cut out.

And finally 6) The worst thing you can do to trans people is to IGNORE them. Not having that conversation to begin with is ignoring them. Ignoring them is as bad as outright hate, because ignoring makes it easier to marginalize groups.

 

[BlandChili]

It's how it all started, tough:

I reeeally could have done without the extremely transphobic language :/ it came out of left field too.

My impression was that the emphasis from lifegetsweird on "extremely" was purposeful, that the issue wasn't necessarily that Wade's a transphobe or that he's able to voice it, but that the language he uses is very... striking.

 

[redraw]

And finally 6) The worst thing you can do to trans people is to IGNORE them. Not having that conversation to begin with is ignoring them. Ignoring them is as bad as outright hate, because ignoring makes it easier to marginalize groups.

To be sure, one can do much worse for marginalized groups than simply not discussing them. That option exists and it manifests frequently in our society, not merely in high-profile instances.

And, yes, I'm glad we are having this discussion. Glad we are having it now.

One of the issues I've been reacting against here is the sentiment that we shouldn't even be voicing this criticism.

 

[Reaurt]

Wade is secretly attracted to trans people, I'm calling it now.

 

[Brickman]

Wade is secretly attracted to trans people, I'm calling it now.

Wade should be sacrificed in the altar of post-modernism, all his holes ravaged by dicks of all sizes, genders and ethnicites, to wash away the sin of his rampant and deshumanizing transphobia. I hope Eva Kiss includes that or things will burn in the name of justice!