VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch. 12 Full] [Eva Kiss]

[forthewins]

If you don't like Lena/Ian or, like me, wants to pursue a monogamous relationship with Holly for example, you feel like you are being punished because some scenes with some characters don't have alternative events taking place, they are just skipped.

That's true, but it's kind of just a necessary evil due to the limited amount of time Eva has to create content. Even if a certain scene is only in 20% of playthroughs, that doesn't make the scene take less time to create.

Basically, as I'm sure you know, this is just why we need more than one playthrough if we want to get the full experience of every update. Especially in this update in particular.

 

[BlandChili]

That's true, but it's kind of just a necessary evil due to the limited amount of time Eva has to create content. Even if a certain scene is only in 20% of playthroughs, that doesn't make the scene take less time to create.

I don't want to dispute Evakiss' development tactics or pretend to be wise as to how she should do things, I have no idea how she works, but it still stands out to me.

Basically, as I'm sure you know, this is just why we need more than one playthrough if we want to get the full experience of every update. Especially in this update in particular.

The finished game is surely going to feel different, of course. I'll still highlight this quote from Evakiss' patreon:

"This time around you play as two characters, Lena and Ian as they attempt to find themselves, chase their dreams and seek love or lust in accordance with your guiding hand."

In accordance to my guiding hand I have yet to find either.

Hopefully that will come within any of these next chapters though. I'm not dissatisfied, as it might seem, just wishful that there had been thought to put in an alternative enrtyway to a relationship here and there.

For example, it would have been great if instead of rejecting Louise outright, that you could ask her for a chance to think the relationship over, skipping the first scene but not closing off the path completely.
Especially because of the circumstances around her relationship with Jeremy and her emotional state at the time.
Instead you have to kiss her and have sex right then, otherwise tough luck? Why?

Now, again, this is not to say that Evakiss has done something wrong or badly, it just becomes apparent to someone like me that plays the game in a very particular fashion, that there are routes that feel like you are halting yourself, that some of the scenarios come across as "all or nothing" especially after recognising the pattern a couple of times.

 

[forthewins]

Now, again, this is not to say that Evakiss has done something wrong or badly, it just becomes apparent to someone like me that plays the game in a very particular fashion, that there are routes that feel like you are halting yourself, that some of the scenarios come across as "all or nothing" especially after recognising the pattern a couple of times.

Yeah, I guess the real issue here is that Lena's love routes are very underdeveloped so far, aside from Ian. Whereas by this time Ian can be well on the way with Lena, Alison, or Holly.

I still see Lena as having solid longer term options in Holly and probably Ivy. And she'll probably have a love path option for Axel, if you're willing to go that route.

For some of these routes being shut off if you're not immediately having sex with them, I think that may say more about the character of the other people involved than what a more pure Lena's story will look like on the whole by the time it's finished. People like Robert and Louise do not strike me as suitable partners for a long term relationship. And Mike is taken (and also very willing to cheat).

 

[BlandChili]

For some of these routes being shut off if you're not immediately having sex with them, I think that may say more about the character of the other people involved than what a more pure Lena's story will look like on the whole by the time it's finished. People like Robert and Louise do not strike me as suitable partners for a long term relationship. And Mike is taken (and also very willing to cheat).

But we are talking about Lena's reactions here. Even if Robert had said no to taking it slow, having the option to try would have been nice.

Even if their path ultimately ended up the same way, it would have still been nice to have the "delay" option here and there.

 

[Skylark21]

For example, it would have been great if instead of rejecting Louise outright, that you could ask her for a chance to think the relationship over, skipping the first scene but not closing off the path completely.
Especially because of the circumstances around her relationship with Jeremy and her emotional state at the time.
Instead you have to kiss her and have sex right then, otherwise tough luck? Why?

I guess that's because It's a rebound kind of thing and not really a start of her love path, I mean she was emotionally vulnerable and decides to sleep with Lena just to feel better, even the scenes after kind of indicates It's heading towards Idk Louise sub path. I think her Love path is yet to come but lets see.

 

[MrWally]

Wow!!! amazing update... Lena or Cindy? really hard to choose

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But I'm sure of one thing, my Ian is screwed and let's see how he comes out of this xD

And if Ian doesn't follow Cindy, Axel probably does.....

 

[Minttymint]

Oh come on Wade is bland. IMO.

Maybe but -I- find him attractive so would like to see it

 

[BloodyMares]

I don't want to dispute Evakiss' development tactics or pretend to be wise as to how she should do things, I have no idea how she works, but it still stands out to me.

I feel you. When I first played this Chapter, it seemed to me very short in the Narrative department, because I wasn't on the paths that were the focus (Cindy, Robert and Jeremy). I got my worth from the update with Ian x Lena, Lena x Louise, Ian x Alison and Ian x Holly (though I had to cut the night short because it feels wrong not being honest with Holly before committing to anything).
But unfortunately, it's the price to pay for the ever-branching storyline. Earlier updates felt more content-packed and had more playtime because they were mostly linear, where you could only make some binary choices resulting in slightly different scenes. Starting from Chapter 2, however, the narrative started weaving its webbings, and then one update you get what you want, and the other feels a bit empty and non-eventful. But there's nothing you can do about it, really, if you want to keep to your main selling point of player choice and branching story-lines and don't have the AAA budget. GGGB in its late development suffered from the same problem, Eva had to focus on some paths one update while ignoring the others, and the next update focus on another path, etc. I'm sure having more than 2 months for development would allow her to write different stories and have some content for those currently not looking for anything sexual. Perhaps they could focus on their work more, like Ashley could if she wanted to go the business route while waiting for Eric (or even being single).

The finished game is surely going to feel different, of course. I'll still highlight this quote from Evakiss' patreon:

"This time around you play as two characters, Lena and Ian as they attempt to find themselves, chase their dreams and seek love or lust in accordance with your guiding hand."

In accordance to my guiding hand I have yet to find either.

Hopefully that will come within any of these next chapters though. I'm not dissatisfied, as it might seem, just wishful that there had been thought to put in an alternative enrtyway to a relationship here and there.

To be fair, there are some routes like that for Ian, too. Granted, he can have several tries with Alison and have a slow burn with Holly and Cindy, but Emma, Cherry and Minerva require Ian to act right away, or the opportunity to get together with them is lost. Ivy, too, isn't interested in Ian if he can't impress her during their first interaction. Some characters are simply like that. Take Robert for example. He's pushy and impatient, and if Lena refuses to spread her legs for him right away, he gets butthurt, acts like an asshole and Lena wants nothing to do with him anymore.

But we are talking about Lena's reactions here. Even if Robert had said no to taking it slow, having the option to try would have been nice.

Even if their path ultimately ended up the same way, it would have still been nice to have the "delay" option here and there.

She can give him 2 chances, and he always fucks those chances up by being impatient. She can kiss him in Chapter 2, and then refuse when he tries to talk her into inviting him. In Chapter 3, he tries again to impose himself, and if Lena tells him it's too soon, he gets angry instead of respecting her boundaries. It's all his fault. And it makes sense in the narrative, he's not very smart. Letting Lena give him a third/fourth chance would just result in the same toxic relationship she suffered with Axel, there's just no "love route with Robert" that would make Lena happy, they're incompatible in that way. But, there's no way to be sure that Eva won't implement "second chances" to get together with Cherry, Emma or Louise on different terms, because they're nowhere near as toxic as Robert/Minerva (though Louise has some serious attachment issues). After all, in GGGB, Jack too had several entries into his relationship. You could reject him early on, and he gives up on Ash after a while and it seems like his route is сlosed for good, but then you can reignite his spark in the middle of the game. So who knows, we might just need to be a little bit more patient with their paths.

 

[Cabot]

I was gonna say some of that: It looks like some of you assume that because at the moment some routes are closed if the MC doesn't jump on them the first time they are available, they're gonna stay closed forever. Not sure that's the case (it wasn't for some routes in GGGB that had various "entry points"), and in fact I'd argue that fast triggering some routes could even be detrimental for some long term goals: for example if you're going for the poly side of IanxLenaxHolly or aiming at a relationship with Cindy and not just banging her... I'm not sure rushing to it this last chapter was such a good idea.

 

[RedGlow]

And if Ian doesn't follow Cindy, Axel probably does.....

Yeah! we are making Wade a favor here right? I mean he would prefer Ian over Axel to calm his girlfriend's "anger"

 

[BlandChili]

I guess that's because It's a rebound kind of thing and not really a start of her love path, I mean she was emotionally vulnerable and decides to sleep with Lena just to feel better, even the scenes after kind of indicates It's heading towards Idk Louise sub path. I think her Love path is yet to come but lets see.

That is my hope too. Given what can happen at the bottle game, it seems like Louise's story is goin to have its different starting points converge at some point. That ORS is a larger project than GGGB also gives hope for more material to come out of some of the other paths and for new ones to open up.

He's pushy and impatient, and if Lena refuses to spread her legs for him right away, he gets butthurt, acts like an asshole and Lena wants nothing to do with him anymore.

How do you get this reaction? When I played through the Lena/Ian route and kept their approval low, but kept them dating to see what would happen, first kiss and sex came automatically eventually.

I was gonna say some of that: It looks like some of you assume that because at the moment some routes are closed if the MC doesn't jump on them the first time they are available, they're gonna stay closed forever. Not sure that's the case (it wasn't for some routes in GGGB that had various "entry points"), and in fact I'd argue that fast triggering some routes could even be detrimental for some long term goals: for example if you're going for the poly side of IanxLenaxHolly or aiming at a relationship with Cindy and not just banging her... I'm not sure rushing to it this last chapter was such a good idea.

I'm under no illusions that there is more to come and most likely something that my specific playthrough will benefit from too.
That's why I'm considering becoming a patreon in the near future, it's still a great product and most likely the final version, some time in the future, is not going to feel constraining like the current version does to me.

 

[Cabot]

I'm under no illusions that there is more to come and most likely something that my specific playthrough will benefit from too.
That's why I'm considering becoming a patreon in the near future, it's still a great product and most likely the final version, some time in the future, is not going to feel constraining like the current version does to me.

Not trying to tell you how you SHOULD play the game, but maybe you could consider playing more than one or two routes. It looks to me that sometimes you're asking for choices that (kinda) are already there, like in Robert's case.

The game feels and plays much more nuanced (and imho fun) if you don't adhere stricly to just one specific route. But to each their own, ofc.

 

[RedGlow]

She can give him 2 chances, and he always fucks those chances up by being impatient. She can kiss him in Chapter 2, and then refuse when he tries to talk her into inviting him. In Chapter 3, he tries again to impose himself, and if Lena tells him it's too soon, he gets angry instead of respecting her boundaries. It's all his fault. And it makes sense in the narrative, he's not very smart. Letting Lena give him a third/fourth chance would just result in the same toxic relationship she suffered with Axel, there's just no "love route with Robert" that would make Lena happy, they're incompatible in that way. But, there's no way to be sure that Eva won't implement "second chances" to get together with Cherry, Emma or Louise on different terms, because they're nowhere near as toxic as Robert/Minerva (though Louise has some serious attachment issues). After all, in GGGB, Jack too had several entries into his relationship. You could reject him early on, and he gives up on Ash after a while and it seems like his route is сlosed for good, but then you can reignite his spark in the middle of the game. So who knows, we might just need to be a little bit more patient with their paths.

I think Evakiss designed him just like "Doug" from GGGB. He won't be like Jack, he will be just a toy for Lena's pleasure. On the other hand, Axel might end up just like Jack. We will see.

 

[BlandChili]

Not trying to tell you how you SHOULD play the game, but maybe you could consider playing more than one or two routes. It looks to me that sometimes you're asking for choices that (kinda) are already there, like in Robert's case.

The game feels and plays much more nuanced (and imho fun) if you don't adhere stricly to just one specific route. But to each their own, ofc.

I played GGGB through in various different ways and I intend to explore ORS more when the game is nearer completion as well. For now my choice to restrict how many different paths I play is deliberate. I want to keep my firsthand experience intact so I can make choices that are more closely alligned with my initial impression of the game.

My critique isn't even that ORS lacks content, or even choice as such, within its various designated character paths.
You aren't wrong about your sentiment, there's lots of choices to explore, but I think there's something to be said about choice validity when it comes to these kinds of games.

Not everyone is going to play the game more than once. Not everyone's interested in playing a bisexual playthrough. For some people the choice of "kissing Robert" and "rejecting Robert" is going to be the only choice regarding him they'll receive, at least in the current version.
One of the reasons why I request for "delays," "give me time" and "maybe" options is because I think first impressions influence people a lot and not everyone's going to give Robert a chance as a character if the only option available to do so is to kiss him.

Just on a basis of games design; the point of this game is to allow the player agency in Ian and Lena's stories. Some people like adhering to different restrictions, role play, I think it's important that a game of this design structure has material to fit everyone. Having the option "kiss Robert" and "reject Robert" is fine, but not everyone likes forwardness so they'll default to "reject Robert" even if up to that point they kinda liked some of what they'd seen.

Will the game fit more varied playstyles in the future?
I think that's more than likely, my main criticism is just that the latest chapter stood out to me in this department, because it's very short for Lena if a certain combination of choices have been made. Ch. 7 will most likely feel more integrated when ch. 8 is out and there will be something new to point out for me!

 

[Cabot]

I played GGGB through in various different ways and I intend to explore ORS more when the game is nearer completion as well. For now my choice to restrict how many different paths I play is deliberate. I want to keep my firsthand experience intact so I can make choices that are more closely alligned with my initial impression of the game.

I get you, and it's fair enough. As I said wasn't trying to push you into playing the game to my tastes, sorry if it came out wrong.

Not everyone is going to play the game more than once. Not everyone's interested in playing a bisexual playthrough.

That's absolutely right and at the same time is one of the bigger problems of these kind of choice-oriented RPGs. I remember an interview with an Old Bioware developer "complaining" about how, when they looked at the stats, they become quite frustrated in how few people played some of the routes and content they have put quite an effort building (and if you look at some achivements stats for example in Steam that seems to be the case in many games). So in the end it's a balancing act between giving all play styles/routes material enough to be fullfilling and not "wasting" so much needed effort in content that few people might see.

Catch-22.

 

[Leonardovisk]

Im the type of guy that, even trying alternative routes, well i basically do the same path and got the same end haha

For example, why would Lena open her legs to Robert on the first date? Robert suck! I read all the narrative and think "she is not like that, i cant do this to her"

For me its like play TW 3 but building a BAD Gerald of Rivia!

 

[BlandChili]

I get you, and it's fair enough. As I said wasn't trying to push you into playing the game to my tastes, sorry if it came out wrong.

That's absolutely right and at the same time is one of the bigger problems of these kind of choice-oriented RPGs. I remember an interview with an Old Bioware developer "complaining" about how, when they looked at the stats, they become quite frustrated in how few people played some of the routes and content they have put quite an effort building (and if you look at some achivements stats for example in Steam that seems to be the case in many games). So in the end it's a balancing act between giving all play styles/routes material enough to be fullfilling and not "wasting" so much needed effort in content that few people might see.

Catch-22.

Dragon Age: Origins, playing as a rogue: "Throw all stat points into dexterity until you hit 35, then the rest in cunning"

But that's also why I emphasise the claim that the final game will probably feel different once complete. We are talking about an incomplete product still

It's just that many of Lena's choices feel like choosing to do or not to do something. Even non-sexual sometimes, right? If you reject Seymour's offer you just don't do it, I don't think anything else replaces it. You get an offer from Danny that's basically the same event, just not with Seymour, it's a point to cross paths between Axel and Lena again.
That's en example that'll probably be balanced with Ian, as it seems like the MMA tournament will be optional too.

So in the end mayhaps my current issues are only temporary, eh? Let's hope!

Im the type of guy that, even trying alternative routes, well i basically do the same path and got the same end haha

For example, why would Lena open her legs to Robert on the first date? Robert suck! I read all the narrative and think "she is not like that, i cant do this to her"

It's funny you should mention that, because I had a similar reaction myself. I think Lena herself mentions in the first scene featuring Robert after Ian's fight that she hasn't taken him up on his countless offers of getting a drink as she's not interested. My initial thought when he asked player-controlled Lena that question was "so why should she be interested now?"

 

[Leonardovisk]

It's funny you should mention that, because I had a similar reaction myself. I think Lena herself mentions in the first scene featuring Robert after Ian's fight that she hasn't taken him up on his countless offers of getting a drink as she's not interested. My initial thought when he asked player-controlled Lena that question was "so why should she be interested now?"

Right? Or, when Lena finds out about Jeremy trying to score Ivy. Why she wouldnt tell Louise? They are friends, they live together. Lena had an moral obligation to tell her.

I was forced not to tell just to watch the bottle game final scene.

Fucking Jeremy!

 

[Cabot]

Dragon Age: Origins

That in fact can be a very good example. If I remember correctly at the time was said that few people played more than one origin, and even less played all of them. Most of the players just picked up one and stick with it for the whole game.

So, altough the idea could look cool on paper, from a developer point of view was kind of a waste of resources.

In ORS terms what I mean is that tough I'm sure for some routes there will be several "entry points" (for example I'd bet all Stan's BTCs on a Lena that has ratted on Jeremy -heh- being able to hook up with him further on the road) for others it will be more of a "do it or don't" thing. And... it makes sense to me, not only due to the limited resources thing, but also from a narrative pov.

 

[BlandChili]

That in fact can be a very good example. If I remember correctly at the time was said that few people played more than one origin, and even less played all of them. Most of the players just picked up one and stick with it for the whole game.

So, altough the idea could look cool on paper, from a developer point of view was kind of a waste of resources.

Keep in mind though, that data regarding DA:O is with a perspective towards trends in the entire AAA market that it's a part of, so directors and designers has to keep in mind time constraints and limits of what "the average player" and not just "what the average bioware rpg player" might desire in order to make a purchase.

No one randomly stumbles upon Our Red String at GameStop, you have to seek it out or browse a forum dedicated to pornographic gaming/VN content.

By that count I suppose Evakiss is making the game that suits the market, she just showed with GGGB that the porn itself can be held up with good writing and fun options. In a way we're just waiting for more payoff with each version, right?

In ORS terms what I mean is that tough I'm sure for some routes there will be several "entry points" (for example I'd bet all Stan's BTCs on a Lena that has ratted on Jeremy -heh- being able to hook up with him further on the road) for others it will be more of a "do it or don't" thing. And... it makes sense to me, not only due to the limited resources thing, but also from a narrative pov.

"Do or don't" can also be fine, my issue is that it's so heavily featured for Lena. Practically all her choices are like that, it would have been nice if there were a point or two more where you'd have to choose between two things to do.

For example, one of my direct complaints about chapter 7, that Holly is practically not present if you haven't pursued her with Ian or haven't encouraged poledancing could have been helped if there had been a choice between going to the club with Ivy or inviting Holly over for a hangout. Or just make inviting Holly along a choice, instead of making it dependent on pole dancing.

Ian's path isn't entirely free of them either for that matter, for example I think that if you don't go with Cindy to her photoshoots nothing else takes place in that timeslot of the story.