VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Bacchus1998]

One of the most interesting topics regarding the moral nuances of the characters is that all of them, despite their social facades, have a dark side to be explored and worked on. Lucy is a great example of this, and a fact that caused me a lot of excitement is the contrast presented by her situation in this specific scene: she is inserted in a shameful situation, without really knowing if she is not escaping from the protagonist's hands because she is thinking about her well-being. of your child, or for feeling, in a very fucked up and exciting way, pleasure in the total relinquishment of control.

 

[ffive]

Out of curiosity i went through my playthrough to check the choices i've made re: Veronica, and this is the rundown:

start at 5
* "Life Coach?" -1 prompt is pretty misleading given it implies it's just a question, but the snark is also pretty spot on. sadly Veronica can't take much of a joke, she'd much rather mock others
* "Turn around and give privacy" +1
* "Be honest with her" -1 you asked a question, you got a honest answer and you are bitching that you actually got treated seriously rather than just dismissed
* "Put hand on shoulder" > "Double Down" +1
* "Hard to say" > "Felicia" -1 technically one could genuinely want to see the entire thing before picking the favorite, but the other prompt makes it clear it's not a polite request so fair enough
(partnered with Rose for the interview, due to promise to help her)
(invited Mina to the gym, reasoning upthread)
* "Want to get in shape" +2
(didn't ask for help with stretching, since game suggested Veronica might be more content if she's left to coach someone she's clearly into, as opposed to getting interrupted by a guy she doesn't like)
* "Tell her not to get complacent" +1
* "Help to get her business on track" on Veronica's path
* "Make sure Veronica is okay" +2
* "Ask if everything is okay" +1
* "Order her to her knees" +0 you tell someone they don't have much of a fang, you're pretty much asking to get challenged on that
* "Share your positive thoughts" +1
* "Try and warm Veronica up" +1
* "Use intimacy to make her squirm" +0 you'd rather not make a girl pee like a dog and you miss out on relationship point as a result. no good deed etc.
* "Scratch Veronica's back" +3
* "Encourage her" +2
* "Offer some validation" +1
* "Put on a good show" +1

... end result: 19 relationship points and 3 points short. You can now proceed to tell me how horrible and dehumanizing was the treatment Veronica suffered at the hands of my Edwin, and how it's totally justified and consistent he'd get blocked from trying to comfort her after the show.

 

[TD1900]

Out of curiosity i went through my playthrough to check the choices i've made re: Veronica, and this is the rundown:

... end result: 19 relationship points and 3 points short. You can now proceed to tell me how horrible and dehumanizing was the treatment Veronica suffered at the hands of my Edwin, and how it's totally justified and consistent he'd get blocked from trying to comfort her after the show.

Yeah, the gamification side of things can be pretty wonky. The difference of single pleasantry making or breaking her being receptive to a hug when she's at rock bottom is simply ludonarrative dissonance. It's kinda why I don't like to lean on the point system too often, and instead build on other choices.

I've lowered the Veronica hug gate before, and I'm open to adjusting it again, but people always come the other direction and tell me it's reasonable. Any grumbling to the contrary is appreciated for the running tally in my head.

Anyway, don't attribute my shitty game design sense as a Veronica character flaw.

I've been playing a lot of ORS recently and I've come to appreciate both how narrow the range of affection is for determining checks, as well as the general flexibility of the routes.

Just stuff I've been thinking about. I'd very much like to overhaul the point system at a certain point, but the priority is making progress narratively and not breaking anyone's saves. Maybe for the GOTY edition in 2032.

 

[ffive]

I've lowered the Veronica hug gate before, and I'm open to adjusting it again, but people always come the other direction and tell me it's reasonable. Any grumbling to the contrary is appreciated for the running tally in my head.

Don't worry, i'd actually leave it the way it is. I may use it as excuse to take a pot shot or two at Veronica but the current hug threshold seems good overall -- it makes sense that only really Edwin who has gone extra mile to get to know Veronica ends up in position where they'd consider each other something that might start to look like friends. Especially since Edwin isn't exactly a charismatic extrovert himself.

 

[pinuz1]

1,164 paid members on Patreon...

You think they will risk that for a rape scene? Be serious.

It has nothing to do with the "paid members" on patreon, a rape scene would make no sense and at no point, even if you're playing the most "evil" Edwin you can, would he end up straight up raping anyone. I feel like y'all tend to forget how "realistic" this game tries to be with it's cast of characters and their personalities. And maybe it's because so many AVN or the adult japanese rpgs in this site downplay rape so much and make it so common, you might think any game has space for a rape scene, but Edwin raping someone wouldn't make sense at all.

 

[Dark479]

So between Hana and Mina I rather have only Mina as girlfriend as I don't want the game to start to adding points for cheating on Hana but on that same note I'm not sure how that might work out later in the game and future updates if Hana wants to blow up the club. I feel almost like I'm kinda forced to break off with Mina and go down the Hana girlfriend route if only to maybe have some influence later but I'm not sure. What should I do? Anyone got any tips on how to handle this situation?

 

[Takkatakka]

So between Hana and Mina I rather have Mina as girlfriend and don't want to go down the route of the game starting to add points for cheating on Hana but on that same not I'm not sure how that might work out later in the game and future updates if Hana wants to blow up the club. I feel almost like I'm kinda forced to break off with Mina and go down the Hana girlfriend route if only to maybe have some influence later but I'm not sure. What should I do? Anyone got any tips on how to handle this situation?

Well...since the story hasn't progressed far enough, that anybody here can know that (well, maybe TD as the actual writer, but he wouldn't tell us), I don't think anybody here can really help you in that regard.

One solution can simply be: Make a save, keep it and then play both paths when the game is progressed further.

 

[Dark479]

Well...since the story hasn't progressed far enough, that anybody here can know that (well, maybe TD as the actual writer, but he wouldn't tell us), I don't think anybody here can really help you in that regard.

One solution can simply be: Make a save, keep it and then play both paths when the game is progressed further.

Fuck...I'll make a save and I'll go down the Mina only girlfriend route while trying to maintain as positive a relationship with Hana as possible. Hope that will be enough to not lock me entirely into a bad ending.

 

[ffive]

Hope that will be enough to not lock me entirely into a bad ending.

I wouldn't worry that you're going to get nothing but bad endings if you associate with anyone but specific, one girl.

 

[Elduriel]

Fuck...I'll make a save and I'll go down the Mina only girlfriend route while trying to maintain as positive a relationship with Hana as possible. Hope that will be enough to not lock me entirely into a bad ending.

there is no Mina GF route though.... it only exists with Hana. I mean you can probably stay exclusive with Mina if you want, but there is no such commitment on either end.

 

[Dark479]

there is no Mina GF route though.... it only exists with Hana. I mean you can probably stay exclusive with Mina if you want, but there is no such commitment on either end.

I think you mean no Hana gf route...and while you are mostly right in that there seem to be no scenes or anything exclusive to being Hana's boyfriend, it you tell her you like her at the end of Week 3 Part 1, you technically become her boyfriend and the game starts tracking points for "cheating" on her. I rather avoid that minefield if I can help it.

 

[pinuz1]

If anything one way to piss Hana off would be cheating on her, if you stay as fuck-friends and focus on Mina as the future main girl for you save, you should be alright. I'm positive the devs wouldn't lock you into a "bad ending" just for not focusing on Hana.

 

[ffive]

I think you mean no Hana gf route

I think they're referring to "Mina only girlfriend route" you've used in your post. There is no option in game (at least for now) to have Mina as your girlfriend. The only "girlfriend route" available is the one where Edwin becomes exclusive with Hana.

 

[TD1900]

Baseline Edwin is always friends with Hana for plot reasons. Obviously the nature of your relationship will inform certain things, and make certain angles easier, but you won't be locked into a *bad* end just because you're not screwing. That said, her character specific endings will obviously be dependent on having a relationship, but you're not getting sunk on the club related stuff.

 

[Dark479]

Baseline Edwin is always friends with Hana for plot reasons. Obviously the nature of your relationship will inform certain things, and make certain angles easier, but you won't be locked into a *bad* end just because you're not screwing. That said, her character specific endings will obviously be dependent on having a relationship, but you're not getting sunk on the club related stuff.

Thank you for the reply. Then yeah, I'm definitely going Mina only girlfriend route.

 

[Dark479]

I think they're referring to "Mina only girlfriend route" you've used in your post. There is no option in game (at least for now) to have Mina as your girlfriend. The only "girlfriend route" available is the one where Edwin becomes exclusive with Hana.

I guess she doesn't get specifically labeled as girlfriend, at least not yet, but it's more or less the same thing. If you get with her there are a couple of scenes you can get and the relationship will likely progress in future updates. Of course, I imagine that at some point she will find out about the club and all but that's a crisis for another time.

 

[ffive]

I guess she doesn't get specifically labeled as girlfriend, at least not yet, but it's more or less the same thing.

Not really, no. Mina explicitly doesn't want to get in relationship because she's smart enough to know that doing it right after her previous relationship crashed is bound to be nothing but bad judgement and a rebound. She recognizes she has a crush on Edwin but that's the extent of it, she seems quite determined for this arrangement to be "friends with benefits".

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if at some point she gets (casually) involved with other people, either out of curiosity or to "prove" to herself that she's got things under control, and she isn't just falling for literally first guy she met other than her first boyfriend. Even if she's kind-of stringing Edwin along with "maybe at some point down the road i'd like it to become something more".

 

[Dark479]

Not really, no. Mina explicitly doesn't want to get in relationship because she's smart enough to know that doing it right after her previous relationship crashed is bound to be nothing but bad judgement and a rebound. She recognizes she has a crush on Edwin but that's the extent of it, she seems quite determined for this arrangement to be "friends with benefits".

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if at some point she gets (casually) involved with other people, either out of curiosity or to "prove" to herself that she's got things under control, and she isn't just falling for literally first guy she met other than her first boyfriend. Even if she's kind-of stringing Edwin along with "maybe at some point down the road i'd like it to become something more".

It will almost certainly become more...at least if the player chooses as you can distinctly choose to be lovers or push her down a more slutty route. I seriously doubt that this will amount to nothing without the player messing it up.

 

[ffive]

I seriously doubt that this will amount to nothing without the player messing it up.

Well, i'm not saying it'll amount to nothing, you could even say the FWB arrangement they have is already something and more Edwin could ever hope for. What i'm saying is that, realistically, if it even becomes a relationship then it's one that's bound to be pretty short lived, because Mina is out of Edwin's league (something they're both aware of) But then it's unlikely for the game to reach such late point, so people's fantasies are probably safe.

 

[ename144]

My MC simply pushed back once or twice on her aggression towards him, and didn't seek all opportunities to interact with her -- did the early interview with another girl and during the gym session didn't interrupt Veronica's session with Mina. This was enough to miss out on points needed to comfort her in the shower and to be all-buddies later because surprise, surprise, Veronica is one of these blowhard wanna-be doms who is eager to step on everyone around her but absolutely cannot take what she is dishing out, and you'll either lose points with her (or not gain them) if you don't prostrate yourself before her.

So, no. Treating Veronica merely like a peer will get you nowhere because she doesn't view Edwin as a peer early on.

edit
i mean, case in point:

* when asked to pick a girl who looks the best in uniform actually dare to pick a girl you think looks best: lose out on 2-3 points, even if you weren't "a pig about it"
* don't pick Veronica for interview: miss out on 5 points
* bring Mina to the gym: you can get at most 2-4 points with Veronica (4 if you interrupt her and Mina getting along) unless MC is a social chameleon, vs 6 if you visit alone
* actually refrain from telling Veronica you've been ogling her and from some empty flattery: miss out on couple points during the photo session.
* don't take her up on her offer to have sex: miss out on 3-4 points

But yeah, sure, those are all because "you treated Veronica like a sex toy". Or maybe it's simply because you start at 5 points with Veronica (the lowest of all, others start at 8) and need to get 17 more points with her quickly to be able to do the one gesture which determines whether Edwin becomes friends with her or not, and those points with her aren't exactly frequent to come by.

Out of curiosity i went through my playthrough to check the choices i've made re: Veronica, and this is the rundown:

... end result: 19 relationship points and 3 points short. You can now proceed to tell me how horrible and dehumanizing was the treatment Veronica suffered at the hands of my Edwin, and how it's totally justified and consistent he'd get blocked from trying to comfort her after the show.

I certainly didn't mean to cast aspersions on your playstyle, so I'm sorry if my "sex toy" comment came across as judgmental. I just meant that Veronica reacts badly to being objectified or fetishized, even if that is ultimately what she signed up for under Kathleen. That's what I meant by treating her as a peer; sure, she's accepted a demeaning job of her own volition (mostly), but there's no need to rub that in. If that sort of circumspection is what you view as "kissing up to her," then I take your point.

Looking through your choices, it does seem like you missed 3-4 points by choosing to call a spade a spade right to her face, so in that sense I guess it's arguable that failing to hit the cutoff is proper design. Looking over the points closely, however, I will say that the 3+ additional points we can get by not inviting Mina to Veronica's gym (plus a chance for yet another point in Week 2) strikes me as little too big of a swing. That choice is as much about Mina as it is about Veronica, so there should probably be 2-3 more Veronica points available on the Mina route (even if we might have to forsake Mina a bit to get them).

Something to consider for that Game Of The Year edition. (Can we preorder that now, TD?)