VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Dr. Mick]

Interesting to see the different perspectives on how people perceive the characters.
While when visiting this thread it's pretty common to see people's different takes on how certain events played out, or what they think about the potential future of the storyline, I'm surprised at some of the most recent posts.

In a story filled with abusive sadism, it seems odd to see people being so down on a character for horniness and promiscuity. There have been a number of posts where people dislike Veronica because they aren't fond of her body-type; which is fine, as long as it's just a comment on their preference, rather than being negative about people who look like that in general, everyone has their own tastes.
Maybe I'm forgetting something from her scenes; I just don't understand why she's the current target.

Might also be bias on my part, since she's one of my top three in this novel. Of all the things I remember about this story, she's one of the most mild characters by comparison, even seemed somewhat reserved for a good portion of the narrative.

 

[ffive]

In a story filled with abusive sadism, it seems odd to see people being so down on a character for horniness and promiscuity.

If you're referring to my post then it's not about horniness and promiscuity per se, but about what's effectively harassment and abuse of power. I don't think anyone would excuse "horniness and promiscuity" of a male gym owner harassing his customers and by the same token i don't see any reason to give Veronica a pass in this regard. Especially when it may be negatively affecting her own situation and she's either unable or unwilling to recognize it.

 

[GokutheG]

If you're referring to my post then it's not about horniness and promiscuity per se, but about what's effectively harassment and abuse of power. I don't think anyone would excuse "horniness and promiscuity" of a male gym owner harassing his customers and by the same token i don't see any reason to give Veronica a pass in this regard. Especially when it may be negatively affecting her own situation and she's either unable or unwilling to recognize it.

It's been a while since I've played but I don't think V has ever been shown as doing anything inappropriate while coaching anyone. Can you show where it was said that she hits on her clients or anything similar? Just because she's bi doesn't mean she's a creep.

 

[ffive]

It's been a while since I've played but I don't think V has ever been shown as doing anything inappropriate while coaching anyone. Can you show where it was said that she hits on her clients or anything similar? Just because she's bi doesn't mean she's a creep.

She's all over Mina the moment you bring her to the gym, to the point where even Edwin comments on it internally and can either use it for his goals, or to interrupt it.

 

[GokutheG]

She's all over Mina the moment you bring her to the gym, to the point where even Edwin comments on it internally and can either use it for his goals, or to interrupt it.

Honestly I know she's attracted to Mina but I've always seen that as the game hinting at using the gym scene to increase Mina's bi points and eventually the possibility of setting the two up. Is there anything besides that one scene to even hint that she is inappropriate because that seems to go against the established character? I doubt it because that's one of the reasons she dislikes Samson so much.

 

[Dr. Mick]

If you're referring to my post then it's not about horniness and promiscuity per se, but about what's effectively harassment and abuse of power. I don't think anyone would excuse "horniness and promiscuity" of a male gym owner harassing his customers and by the same token i don't see any reason to give Veronica a pass in this regard. Especially when it may be negatively affecting her own situation and she's either unable or unwilling to recognize it.

I wasn't referring to any one post in particular, and thank you for expounding on what you meant.

I'm unfamiliar with what you're talking about, however. I do remember Veronica having an obvious interest in Mina, but nothing she did during the gym visit scene seemed inappropriate or out of bounds.
It's been a while since, so there could be something I'm missing; simply do not remember anything of the sort, either implicitly or overtly.

 

[ffive]

Honestly I know she's attracted to Mina but I've always seen that as the game hinting at using the gym scene to increase Mina's bi points and eventually the possibility of setting the two up.

This is from the player's detached point of view, but the very possibility is there because of Veronica's unprofessional and forward behavior. There would simply be no such effect if she behaved professionally.

Is there anything besides that one scene to even hint that she is inappropriate because that seems to go against the established character?

Why do you think any of this is going against Veronica's established character? From the very beginning of the game she's consistently shown as a person who will aggressively pursue women she's got sexual interest in. She mentions it herself it's her regular behavior on more than one occasion.

I'm unfamiliar with what you're talking about, however. I do remember Veronica having an obvious interest in Mina, but nothing she did during the gym visit scene seemed inappropriate or out of bounds.
It's been a while since, so there could be something I'm missing; simply do not remember anything of the sort, either implicitly or overtly.

Right, i'm sure it is completely professional and within bounds to "assist" your first-time customer with stretching in this manner:



Or to decide that they need your continuous hands-on assistance with their stretching in the first place (while leaving your other, also first time customer, pretty much ignored) Just as it is nothing but professional to insist they call you by first name, have them train kegels of all possible things, and engage in in-depth talks about impact of that on having sex (all of that happens on the subsequent visit)

I'd posit if you remember Veronica having obvious interest in Mina, it's because Veronica acts in manner which makes such interest obvious, and which is something actual, professional gym manager shouldn't do.

 

[Dr. Mick]

Right, i'm sure it is completely professional and within bounds to "assist" your first-time customer with stretching in this manner:

View attachment 4085754

Interesting. I don't remember this from the gym scene at all. Thank you for showing to what you were referring.
That would indeed be inappropriate outside of being in a relationship with that individual.

Wonder why it is I don't remember seeing this scene, or any other, with Veronica doing anything even similar.
Perhaps it is dependent upon the choices that I made while going through the VN, because I feel like that is the first I've seen this.

 

[ffive]

Interesting. I don't remember this from the gym scene at all. Thank you for showing to what you were referring.
That would indeed be inappropriate outside of being in a relationship with that individual.

Wonder why it is I don't remember seeing this scene, or any other, with Veronica doing anything even similar.
Perhaps it is dependent upon the choices that I made while going through the VN, because I feel like that is the first I've seen this.

IIRC you have option there for Edwin to interrupt and ask Veronica to assist him instead. I'd guess perhaps you've picked it and thus avoided things escalating like that..?

 

[Ass prefer]

Heh. I couldn't even think from such a perspective that Veronica could be some kind of sexual maniac, despite the fact that she seems to be trying to be decent. Well, who among us is not without sin.
Which can actually force(rape) someone into sexual contact

 

[GokutheG]

This is from the player's detached point of view, but the very possibility is there because of Veronica's unprofessional and forward behavior. There would simply be no such effect if she behaved professionally.


Why do you think any of this is going against Veronica's established character? From the very beginning of the game she's consistently shown as a person who will aggressively pursue women she's got sexual interest in. She mentions it herself it's her regular behavior on more than one occasion.


Right, i'm sure it is completely professional and within bounds to "assist" your first-time customer with stretching in this manner:

View attachment 4085754

Or to decide that they need your continuous hands-on assistance with their stretching in the first place (while leaving your other, also first time customer, pretty much ignored) Just as it is nothing but professional to insist they call you by first name, have them train kegels of all possible things, and engage in in-depth talks about impact of that on having sex (all of that happens on the subsequent visit)

I'd posit if you remember Veronica having obvious interest in Mina, it's because Veronica acts in manner which makes such interest obvious, and which is something actual, professional gym manager shouldn't do.

Huh I can see where your interpretation of inappropriate behavior comes from but i don't think that was the intent of the scene. I still find this is just the devs trying to lay the groundwork for a M/V route. Until we get solid evidence that she's inappropriate with clients I just don't think she'd do something to put her dream buisnesse at risk because she seems like the type of person to know what's inappropriate and how to keep her impulses in check.

 

[ffive]

Until we get solid evidence that she's inappropriate with clients

I mean, this is literally Veronica being inappropriate with a client :v

I get your point about the groundwork for M/V interactions, but it doesn't change the fact that groundwork is done through Veronica being apparently unable or unwilling to control her impulses while at work. I don't see any reason not to extrapolate this behavior, given what we otherwise learn and see when it comes to Veronica -- put it differently, maybe let's turn the approach around and ask ourselves, when do we even see Veronica actually keep her sexual impulses in check? Or is this simply a case of benefit of doubt because "well she's a character that's supposed to be sympathetic and a victim, so she for sure wouldn't"?

 

[dolfe67]

While the story and writing is very grounded, it's still a porn game so it gets a pass. And in contrast to other (lewd) events in this game, it's really nothing.

But don't do that IRL!

 

[Takkatakka]

I mean, this is literally Veronica being inappropriate with a client :v

I get your point about the groundwork for M/V interactions, but it doesn't change the fact that groundwork is done through Veronica being apparently unable or unwilling to control her impulses while at work. I don't see any reason not to extrapolate this behavior, given what we otherwise learn and see when it comes to Veronica -- put it differently, maybe let's turn the approach around and ask ourselves, when do we even see Veronica actually keep her sexual impulses in check? Or is this simply a case of benefit of doubt because "well she's a character that's supposed to be sympathetic and a victim, so she for sure wouldn't"?

I think it is probably done to set-up something between her and Mina at some point...maybe?!

Also can you really blame her for going after Mina?

 

[GokutheG]

I mean, this is literally Veronica being inappropriate with a client :v

I get your point about the groundwork for M/V interactions, but it doesn't change the fact that groundwork is done through Veronica being apparently unable or unwilling to control her impulses while at work. I don't see any reason not to extrapolate this behavior, given what we otherwise learn and see when it comes to Veronica -- put it differently, maybe let's turn the approach around and ask ourselves, when do we even see Veronica actually keep her sexual impulses in check? Or is this simply a case of benefit of doubt because "well she's a character that's supposed to be sympathetic and a victim, so she for sure wouldn't"?

I just think this attraction is show so explicitly is due to the possibility that players may have missed that Mina can be into girls. I think the first time this can be shown is during the game for mc's birthday(Mina/Hana) and that can be missed if players pick other options. So I think the devs were just trying to make it extremely obvious that not only can Mina be into girls they were hinting that you could potentially set these two up.

And while this game seems to put the story first I can see the devs adding this as a bit of fanservice.

 

[ffive]

I think the first time this can be shown is during the game for mc's birthday(Mina/Hana) and that can be missed if players pick other options.

You can see it as soon as the game prologue -- there's option to get Felicia kiss Mina during the card game at Ian's place. It's pretty impossible to miss it there, i think.

 

[GokutheG]

You can see it as soon as the game prologue -- there's option to get Felicia kiss Mina during the card game at Ian's place. It's pretty impossible to miss it there, i think.

Yeah I remember that part now. This hint can also be missed tho. Seems like the dev was putting a neon sign saying "Mina can be bi" if you bring her to the gym.

Is this the last chance to get bi points for her before she talks about her bucket list? Does she mention other girls if you missed all the opportunities earlier?

 

[dolfe67]

You can see it as soon as the game prologue -- there's option to get Felicia kiss Mina during the card game at Ian's place. It's pretty impossible to miss it there, i think.

This card game event is not canon, if you fuck Felicia in the club's restroom you don't get it.

Yeah I remember that part now. This hint can also be missed tho. Seems like the dev was putting a neon sign saying "Mina can be bi" if you bring her to the gym.

She has "bi" points in her character sheet though.

Is this the last chance to get bi points for her before she talks about her bucket list? Does she mention other girls if you missed all the opportunities earlier?

If you don't get enough bi points, then she doesn't say she want a FFM threesome, only a FMM. Not many instances to get those points, and you can miss them because they are not canon. In my main PT I only got 2 bi points even though I'd like her to have more.

 

[Ass prefer]

How inappropriate it is to refuse Rosalind at the beginning.
Because she came to a brothel, obviously she will be fucked here, but she still doesn't like that the interview will be held through sex.
And it's inappropriate to refuse to fuck her because we're going to work here too and it's our job to fuck women. And to hire her without knowing that she knows how to do it is somehow unprofessional.
What I'm getting at is that this choice to fuck her or not is stupid.

 

[TD1900]

While the story and writing is very grounded, it's still a porn game so it gets a pass. And in contrast to other (lewd) events in this game, it's really nothing.

But don't do that IRL!

This is pretty much the reason; I'm not good at subtlety - especially that early into the project - and GIL relishes the opportunities he gets for girl-on-girl contact. Now, it is totally fair for someone to mark that against Veronica's character. The text stands on its own.

Still, I wouldn't attribute her flirting with customers as a contributing factor for her gym's decline. Not when Samson is behind the scenes encouraging her former coach to set her up to fail. Her dumb business sense, unbudging pride, and the toxic environment she is unwittingly immersed in probably outweighs sexually harassing "flirting" with the odd Mina.