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sunaboz

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Jun 25, 2018
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Seems strange to argue with the author himself, but...
(...)
Mina needs a bit of prodding to go after Veronica, and when she does, it's not even-handed. It's pretty clumsy. When she targets Hana, she's bold. (...)
That's because Veronica is imposing and so far the only intimate relations she's had with Mina was when she was touching her professionally during their exercises. We have no reason to believe that Veronica herself has taken the initiative and shown interest in Mina and if not for Edwin she wouldn't even know that Veronica might want to "play for the other team" (same goes for Veronica).

We also have this bit:
"Despite her egregious flirting at the gym, she likely wrote Mina off as an improbability. This was my chance to give the gals a little push."
Before that push Mina didn't read Veronica's touching as flirting since Veronica herself was very subtle about it and didn't even think there was a chance she could get further with her.

Meanwhile Hana and Mina had already had some steamy action and Hana herself admitted she had lesbian sex so Mina wanting a piece of action is much more probable in my eyes than Mina going after Veronica, who - for all she knows, Edwin knows worse than Mina does (since he barely goes to the gym). This is especially true if Mina had a threesome with Felicia.

(...)
Eh, there's more to life than just being surrounded by eye candy. More importantly, the MC is the one insisting the Carnations bond over their own objections. Dragging them to a concert with no further game plan seems like a bad way to go about that. (...)
There certainly is but for Edwin this might be the last chance to truly let loose before he'll have to study, study and study some more (medicine is no joke, besides physics probably the hardest thing to study). So I find it very likely that he would want to use the situation to his advantage and use his leverage while he can (after all, when 4 weeks are over carnations should have no reason to spend time with Edwin).

As for no game plan - I see inviting them to a concert much more appealing and fun (and well thought out) to do than their usual diner-talks as if they were at a wake. And all of them could have refused or say that it's too sudden just like Felicia did but they didn't (which I find very probable, even in Rosalind's case who had nothing better to do other than reading another book).

As for Hana-Mina thing see my response to TD.
 

ffive

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Jun 19, 2022
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This might seem silly... but I was hoping playing the Veronica + Mina route would inform / give insight to the Hana + Mina path.
For what little it's worth, the game makes it very obvious that bi-curious Mina is totally into Hana, so that she'd make a bold move like that while stoned was completely plausible to me without anything taking place between Veronica+Mina at the club; especially given Mina shows similar glimpses of being able to go for what she wants earlier with Edwin. Double so if Mina has the threesome with Edwin and Felicia under her belt.
 

Biscardone

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May 2, 2020
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Disclaimer: I haven't played this update yet. I'm tragically short on time and I plan to play the public release as soon as I'll be able to. So I can't comment on the update itself - but I'd like to throw my two cents in about the rest.
Also, disclaimer: wall of text incoming.

Honestly, judging the pacing of a serialized release against the big picture is something I don't feel very adept at. I feel like I'm just hoping for the best most of the time. I mean, I try to base each update around some central theme or scenario (this one was Victoria, and there's the through line about "truth" that filters down from that to the other characters), but it's hard to say what moments should be dwelled on or sped past from the perspective of someone sequentially playing through the scenes without hitting a thanks for playing brick wall. There's probably a lot of unneeded repetition in Edwin's thoughts and narration because of that. If it happens to all bleed together in satisfying manner, I consider myself lucky as the focus is usually on making a single update have a rise and fall that is satisfying.

Still, episodic releases both keep things fresh as a developer, but it also kinda skews your perspective. So, yeah, I'm happy that you think everything's fitting.
Here's some food for thoughts: the writing of an AVN with a long development cycle has lots in common with that of long-form literature and cinema (you know, three-act-structure and all that jazz). To continue with the similitude, such an AVN could be compared to a single tome, or a series / cycle of books; to a single movie (albeit a long one), or to an episodic serial. So, the delicate balancing act between a single release and the whole game could lean towards an extreme or the other: thematic episodes vs "the big picture". Personally, I prefer a skew towards the latter, but I completely understand if the monumental effort of releasing a game as complex as Pale Carnation makes you sway towards the former. In the worst case, you can also thighten up some parts of the script in a single revision at the end of the development, when the overall picture is clearer. Just, please, ignore the occasional chorus of "no content for my favorite character, worst update ever" - it doesn't contribute much to the discussion.

I do think ename brings up some good points. Mainly because some of the stuff he highlights (like the contrivance of the rock show) also crossed my mind. The tricky thing is a lot of doubt crosses your mind as an author. How I manage that is taking note when (enough) people pick up on those sore spots. There's actually a ton of things I'm unhappy with that never get mentioned, so I usually file those away as "being my own biggest critic."

(And when people pick on something I'm happy with, I usually just ignore it.)
Here's another tightrope with a delicate balance: the author's view, and the outside view. In my opinion the author's vision should always prevail, because trying to please everyone is (generally speaking) a sure-fire way to produce the lowest common denominator, blandes experiences possible - and the uniqueness of Pale Carnations is one of the reasons of its greatness. At the same time, while the author has the privilege of a bird's eye view on its work, working on a single scene for a long period of time may induce tunnel vision, and some of the player's observation may hold merit even in the author's eye. So, here's a suggestion, for what it's worth. Remember the "Van Doren fix"? If you think that implementing some observations suggested by the players may improve the overall picture, and it's feasible in a reasonable amount of time, it may be worth to apply some touch-ups to past content - it doesn't necessary need to be a branch, maybe just specific revisions are enough (a couple dialog lines, quick internal monologue to change perspective and color a scene etc). However, this should only be done if you, the authors, think the game would benefit from it, not only for the outside opinion's sake. Hell, the game's development is already an arduous process, and I'm willing to bet it's also becoming more difficult as time goes by, due to branching path shenanigans and overall complexity: stalling the development to correct "past mistakes" is bound to pave the way to madness. I'll also repeat myself: if the worst comes to the worst, and you really feel some sections of the game need to be rewritten, that's something that can be left for a future update, maybe even a final revision at the end of the development cycle, when you have the benefit of hindsight.

(No disrespect meant to ename, of course. Maybe I'll completely agree with him after my playthrough - but the above still stands, in my opinion)

Splitting a single day into two updates... ugh, that sounds like a nightmare. We already stress out about spending 3 years on a single week and what's gonna go into the last remaining one. Honestly, it might not be a bad idea. They'll be some lead up into the event of course, what with the aftermath of Ch4Up5's ending and the pre-exhibition stuff. I could see how you could build a cliffhanger on the event starting, but we'll see.

It'd feel kinda backwards finally getting back to a multi day update to doing our first "half day" update, but... I dunno. More frequent releases have always been our goal and we just get worse at it.
And here's the last balancing act. In my opinion, it's not a problem if the development time of single updates tend to grow as time passes by, but I also understand the frustration of an author seeing the finish line getting further and further away, and the feeling of "I have nothing to show for my efforts". So both choices (splitting a release or not) are perfectly acceptable, as long as you're confortable with them and they make sense to you.

For this point, and all the previous ones, I think you (the game's authors) should be a little "egotistical", and make choices that benefit you first. Not to be lazy, or complacent: but as we know yours is already a huge undertaking, perfection is the enemy of good, and you deserve to be satisfied by the process of creation as much as by the "product" itself. Pale Carnation is first of all a story: it is not your duty, your responsibility, or your job. This is a passion project, and it should never become a burden to you. We're only humans, and if cutting some slack ends up making the game slip from a 10/10 to a 9, or even an 8, so be it: I don't want to become exceedingly sappy, but you've already done more that most of us here can, and you deserve not burning out because of it.

This x1000000.

GIL's the fucking backbone of the project. He sells and elevates my inanity as fell as I'm concerned.
Let me wax poetic a little. In my opinion, you're two columns supporting the roof of a temple. Each one of you help and complement the other, and the building needs both to stand.

(Oh, and congrats for the release, of course!)
 

ename144

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Sep 20, 2018
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Seems strange to argue with the author himself, but...

That's because Veronica is imposing and so far the only intimate relations she's had with Mina was when she was touching her professionally during their exercises. We have no reason to believe that Veronica herself has taken the initiative and shown interest in Mina and if not for Edwin she wouldn't even know that Veronica might want to "play for the other team" (same goes for Veronica).

We also have this bit:
"Despite her egregious flirting at the gym, she likely wrote Mina off as an improbability. This was my chance to give the gals a little push."
Before that push Mina didn't read Veronica's touching as flirting since Veronica herself was very subtle about it and didn't even think there was a chance she could get further with her.

Meanwhile Hana and Mina had already had some steamy action and Hana herself admitted she had lesbian sex so Mina wanting a piece of action is much more probable in my eyes than Mina going after Veronica, who - for all she knows, Edwin knows worse than Mina does (since he barely goes to the gym). This is especially true if Mina had a threesome with Felicia.
Hana admitted she had sex with "fucking Zara Tessman," a crucial part of the story! She makes it clear that was a one-time exception from her normal tastes, and Mina is not Zara Tessman. Not that this detail would dampen Mina's curiosity in the slightest, but I think it would more than offset any confidence she got from having Hana's hands on her.
 

ffive

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Jun 19, 2022
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As a bit of an aside, I am curious if it makes sense what Grace said. It doesn't seem like Victoria was refusing to help or that Victoria has some special leverage to make Ian comply. It felt like Grace went nuclear for no reason, more to drive drama than anything else.
It seemed to me that Victoria was very much like "Well, i gave you my advice how to reason with your son, if you're not willing to hear it then i guess i'm just going to leave" and that's what caused Grace to change tack and go for blackmail to get what she wanted. It's not for drama, but simply because Grace wants things to be her way and only her way.
 

Ottoeight

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Mar 13, 2021
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I pretty much wrote the same thing just the other day. It actually is a good idea to skip through the scenes after you read them completely at least once. The amount of fluid movement GIL3D can convey with a few static render is like...well...I don't know any other VN that does it this well.

Or all the little subtle (and less subtle) expressions that just add so much story and convey so much information on their own, like this one for example:

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He also makes some of the best "WTF" faces:

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:KEK:
My favourite facial expressions are Hana's: how she raises and lowers her eyebrows is pure gold.



Nico says she's "under new management;" that sounds a little more direct than merely being "on loan."

Regardless, my point is that the girls might have more or less freedom at the Club based on the specific terms of their loan. We know Nico is a 'special interest,' and that is apparently a real ordeal. It would stand to reason a girl could be a sort of 'anti-special interest' and have a relatively easier time of it in the Club. But this is just speculation on my part.
Her "special interest" is Samson. She was hired because Samson wanna bang tattooed girls and he was only banging Harper.

Every "major" Patron we see at the Club has a kink and favourite girls. Nicolette was hired for Samson.

See my guide (btw, I'm gonna update them after Mr Bubu's walkthrough come out):

Samson's favourites are Harper and Nicolette because they have tattooes. His kink is M-F-M threesomes: he is bisex (as he told Edwin).

Andrea's special interest is the tenor, Vincenzo Bianchi.
 

Takkatakka

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Nov 11, 2022
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I'm definitely not saying Mina wouldn't be interested in Hana. She absolutely would, especially if you triggered that scene in the NHIE game. But as we know, just because Mina has fantasies that doesn't mean she's ready to act on them all on her own. I just feel like she needed some more experience (or a push from someone else) before she was ready to take this particular plunge.

And I doubt my interest in Veronica is influencing my opinion here since I have no desire to share her with Mina. :p
Well...I'm not sure if that is how TD intended the scene, but Mina going for Hana on her own makes sense compared to needing to be prodded to go after Veronica.

With Veronica she doesn't feel like she might be losing something (at least as long as not getting something can't be considered losing something).

With Hana she feels pressured by the kiss between Edwin and Hana to do...SOMETHING to not lose both to each other in a way. So in this scene she got prodded to act as well, just in a different way by Edwin (at least potentially) just kissing her and by Hana just kissing Edwin.
 

sunaboz

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Hana admitted she had sex with "fucking Zara Tessman," a crucial part of the story! She makes it clear that was a one-time exception from her normal tastes, and Mina is not Zara Tessman.
One-time and yet to illustrate it Hana touched Mina in a way no mother should touch their daughter. Also, Hana's exact words were:

"So, that's the story of the first and so far only time I've ever gotten down with a woman."
 
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Takkatakka

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Honestly after the ending of Ch. 5 I can't stop thinking that there is a version of PC in a parallel universe in which neither the MC nor the player know of Vicky's porn past and in which she seems like the pure and perfect mother and how much the reveal would've hit then. :HideThePain:
 

ModiThorrson

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Honestly after the ending of Ch. 5 I can't stop thinking that there is a version of PC in a parallel universe in which neither the MC nor the player know of Vicky's porn past and in which she seems like the pure and perfect mother and how much the reveal would've hit then. :HideThePain:
In that universe Edwin never would have gotten his shit together and would likely be worse than Kathleen.
 

ename144

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Sep 20, 2018
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It seemed to me that Victoria was very much like "Well, i gave you my advice how to reason with your son, if you're not willing to hear it then i guess i'm just going to leave" and that's what caused Grace to change tack and go for blackmail to get what she wanted. It's not for drama, but simply because Grace wants things to be her way and only her way.
I mostly agree, but there is one curious bit to the conversation: why did Grace bring up learning "everything" from Chuck unprompted? Victoria was at least playing along with Grace up until that point. We don't know the details yet, but given how Vicky reacted it's hard to see how Grace thought this would be productive. Maybe she assumed the mere implication she could blackmail Victoria would bring her into line, but that's a surprisingly dumb thought for someone as supposedly calculating as Grace. It's not like she needed an excuse to casually mention Chuck, Grace made it clear she's perfectly happy to bludgeon Victoria into submission if that's what it takes. So why bring it up before Victoria tried to walk away?


Well...I'm not sure if that is how TD intended the scene, but Mina going for Hana on her own makes sense compared to needing to be prodded to go after Veronica.

With Veronica she doesn't feel like she might be losing something (at least as long as not getting something can't be considered losing something).

With Hana she feels pressured by the kiss between Edwin and Hana to do...SOMETHING to not lose both to each other in a way. So in this scene she got prodded to act as well, just in a different way by Edwin (at least potentially) just kissing her and by Hana just kissing Edwin.
That's a valid point, there is more of a ticking clock with Hana. And as ffive noted, Mina was likely stoned. I still think it's a bit sudden, but not as much as I initially thought.

Thinking about it, the simplest way to explain it might be if Felicia encouraged Mina (deliberately or unknowingly) to make the move on Hana. It wouldn't be too hard to have Felicia see some minor spark between them in the after party (assuming the conditions are met), and it's totally in character to help her protege fan the flames.
 
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Takkatakka

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I mostly agree, but there is one curious bit to the conversation: why did Grace bring up learning "everything" from Chuck unprompted? Victoria was at least playing along with Grace up until that point. We don't know the details yet, but given how Vicky reacted it's hard to see how Grace thought this would be productive. Maybe she assumed the mere implication she could blackmail Victoria would bring her into line, but that's a surprisingly dumb thought for someone as supposedly calculating as Grace. It's not like she needed an excuse to casually mention Chuck, Grace made it clear she's perfectly happy to bludgeon Victoria into submission if that's what it takes. So why bring it up before Victoria tried to walk away?
I'm still not sure I understood it completely and the fact that TD wrote it in such a way that we never REALLY got to know WHAT Grace and Vicky were ACTUALLY talking about, makes me think there is more to this anyway. Is Edwin Chuck's son? Has Vicky slept with Ian and he told it Chuck? Is Edwin jumping to conclusions because of his meeting with Donovan that has his mind preoccupied and kinda primed to immediately jump to that, when Vicky seems to start talking about something she did?! I probably interpret too much into it...AGAIN, but I also don't trust TD.

The way I understand the talk between Grace and Vicky is, that Vicky advises Grace to get closer to Ian, while leaving him is space and let him do what he wants. But that is obviously not what Grace wants. She wants to have control, she wants him to go to college and to do that ASAP. So when Vicky starts to walk away, she tries to extort her, but Vicky - apparently - rather comes clean then let herself forced?! If that is the case, Grace failed really spectacularly since that will drive Ian even further away from her and have him choose Vicky over her, I would imagine.

That's a valid point, there is more of a ticking clock with Hana. And as ffive noted, Mina was likely stoned. I still think it's a bit sudden, but not as much as I initially thought.

Thinking about it, the simplest way to explain it might be if Felicia encouraged Mina (deliberately or unknowingly) to make the move on Hana. It wouldn't be too hard to have Felicia see some minor spark between them in the after party (assuming the conditions are met), and it's totally in character to help her protege fan the flames.
That could've worked as well, yes.
 

ffive

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Jun 19, 2022
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Is Edwin Chuck's son?
Edwin (and by extension, Victoria) has met Ian (and by extension, Chuck) at the earliest in mid school some 8-10 years ago. I know Chuck is renowned physicist, but time travel is probably beyond even his abilities.

So when Vicky starts to walk away, she tries to extort her, but Vicky - apparently - rather comes clean then let herself forced?!
Not necessarily. Victoria could've very well agreed to Grace's demands, then freaked out later on her own, while getting herself drunk into stupor out of fear Grace might still reveal her secret if the attempt to sway Ian fails, or whatever.
 

Takkatakka

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Edwin (and by extension, Victoria) has met Ian (and by extension, Chuck) at the earliest in mid school some 8-10 years ago. I know Chuck is renowned physicist, but time travel is probably beyond even his abilities.
I mean, they could've met earlier. I know that is very unlikely, even though it would put a nice bow around Chuck's interest into Edwin and would make Vicky's apprehension regarding Edwin and Chuck spending time together more understandable.
 

ffive

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I mean, they could've met earlier. I know that is very unlikely, even though it would put a nice bow around Chuck's interest into Edwin and would make Vicky's apprehension regarding Edwin and Chuck spending time together more understandable.
They could in theory, but like you note this is very, very unlikely. The sort of development that you'd find in Latin soap opera and/or Rose's smut novel, and mock mercilessly for its far-fetched silliness.

Victoria's apprehension is perfectly understandable as it is, if Chuck simply knows she's done porn and she knows that he knows.
 

Ottoeight

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I'm still not sure I understood it completely and the fact that TD wrote it in such a way that we never REALLY got to know WHAT Grace and Vicky were ACTUALLY talking about, makes me think there is more to this anyway. Is Edwin Chuck's son? Has Vicky slept with Ian and he told it Chuck? Is Edwin jumping to conclusions because of his meeting with Donovan that has his mind preoccupied and kinda primed to immediately jump to that, when Vicky seems to start talking about something she did?! I probably interpret too much into it...AGAIN, but I also don't trust TD.
BRUH

:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
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